Re: Nightingale collabration and additional thoughts

[Guest guest]

Morning thoughts......   

- I just recieved a survey with questions regarding the external use

of comfrey and our views on it's safety - so even that is apparently

potentially contentious :-(  ,  - also, I think I got on my soapbox

there a little, apologies, possibly not helpful ;-)

But I do stand by the advice not to feel obliged to argue the point

with her, and of the risk of spiking our own guns by allowing NC

members a chance to prepare counter arguments.    If I was feeling

really conspiracy theorist, I'd wonder about her motives for

rngaging in  a herb garden.......

Incidentally - I've been using comfrey liberally for donkey's years

on myself - and I'm truly grateful for it's efficacy and safety and

will carry on doing so, and on my patients unless any actual data

suggests otherwise. ;-)     But hypericum oil is also wonderful, and

I would like to retract my recommendation to offer comfrey ointment

to a Nightingale colaborator!  (her loss!)

atb

Sally Owen

PS written before reading your recent post.   -  the point about

effective medicine stands, and I am gutted to have to think so

defensively around these people - it is very conflicting.

Feel free to email me directly, but I think it you were right to ask

for other thoughts, I only have my opinion, and an active debate

really helps.

 

Hi Natasha

I'd stay quiet if I was you - I feel that presenting a good

argument to a Nightingale believer runs the risk of providing the

opportunity to formulate a dismissive argument to it.  (a

dismissive argument can be convincing if believed by the proposer,

even if it is based on a misunderstanding) and is exhausting.   I

would simply demonstrate to her your faith in your knowledge by

embodying it, don't feel intimidated into justifying yourself,

you've seen the results we get.   (And why not have a pot of your

best external preparation for bruises or muscle strain to proffer

to any takers if the opportunity arises!)  I've had a number of

converts thanks to strong hypericum oil at an opportune

moment......  but non greasy and strong is probably best. - I use

Avicennas comfrey cream with added comfrey tincture, hypericum

infused oil, boswellia and lavandula essential oils - (keeps me

going when the joints and tendons play up, and when I made my own

comfrey many years ago, I couldn't keep up with the demand,

because  comfrey ointment really works.)   Actions/results speak

louder than words! - most of our loudest advocates are people who

have been helped by herbs when orthodoxy has nothing to offer. 

(When I broke my hands, I sat for hours in A and E dreaming of

neatly packaged Hypericum oil soaked dressings. Really would have

helped ;-) (they could be packaged similarly to the ones they do

with iodine - any manufacturers out there? please develop! clumsy

people everywhere would thank you ;-))

Good luck Natasha, hope your garden thrives

Sally Owen

Hi All,

A friend of mine over dinner a few weeks ago told

me she was one of the founding members of the Nightingale

Collabration! A caring, lovely lady who does plenty for

our local community, she is helping me set up a community

herb garden. She knew my views on their beliefs(not

positive) before telling me her involvement, I appriciated

her honesty. I do not wish to get into politics. We both

have respect for each other.

I feel inexperienced to discuss at great lengths

with her the differences of opinon between us, as I now

feel like a herbal representative to the collabration. We

have not discussed anything since that evening(I kept my

shocked opinon quiet and listened).

Help...do I never discuss the subject again or do I

try and put a scientific viewpoint to her about HM?

Thanks for any input.

Natasha

From:

To: ukherbal-list

Sent:

Monday, May 7, 2012 12:42 PM

Subject:

Re: Interesting Economist poll

 

Hi Kerry

I just had a look at this poll.

I wondered about the wording - says should CAm be

taught in medical schools. It raises the question

- what do they mean by that? I they mean should

medical students be taught e.g. herbal medicine,

then the answer is a definite no.

House of Lords Select Committee (was it 2000 or

2001?) recommended all doctors wanting to "train"

should not do weekend courses etc, but undergo

full and proper training. I agree with that.

But if they mean - should medical students have

awareness raised, then the answer is 'yes'. And

the best way would be by practitioners of the

subject.

If they mean, should CAM be taught in any

university, then again, the answer would be yes.

Of course it raises the status of CAM, but it's

important that happens and goes on to be the case.

Weekend type courses = no proper training and

lumps properly trained practitioners into the same

category.

I voted. You get the figures when you vote.

Currently stands at roughly 12500 with a NO vote

of 79%.

It's only a rough poll and with limited

circulation but no doubt the skeptics will use it

to further reduce support.

best wishes

>

> > http://www.economist.com/economist-asks/should-alternative-medicine-be-taught-medical-schools

> >

> >

>

>

> --

> Kerry Hackett, MNIMH, AHG, OHA

> Medical Herbalist

> www.kerryhackett.ca

>

-- Sally Owen

MNIMH

Medical Herbalist

Mid Wales

-- Sally Owen

MNIMH

Medical Herbalist

Mid Wales

[Guest guest]

Now, I shall have to go away and cogitate on the problems inherent

in  practicing defensively.........   I may be some

time........      I suspect the answer lies in  patient centred

practice.  and I must remember to sow my borage!

..

Sally Owen

 -

Morning thoughts......   

- I just recieved a survey with questions regarding the external

use of comfrey and our views on it's safety - so even that is

apparently potentially contentious :-(  ,  - also, I think I got

on my soapbox there a little, apologies, possibly not helpful ;-)

But I do stand by the advice not to feel obliged to argue the

point with her, and of the risk of spiking our own guns by

allowing NC members a chance to prepare counter arguments.    If I

was feeling really conspiracy theorist, I'd wonder about her

motives for rngaging in  a herb garden.......

Incidentally - I've been using comfrey liberally for donkey's

years on myself - and I'm truly grateful for it's efficacy and

safety and will carry on doing so, and on my patients unless any

actual data suggests otherwise. ;-)     But hypericum oil is also

wonderful, and I would like to retract my recommendation to offer

comfrey ointment to a Nightingale colaborator!  (her loss!)

atb

Sally Owen

PS written before reading your recent post.   -  the point about

effective medicine stands, and I am gutted to have to think so

defensively around these people - it is very conflicting.

Feel free to email me directly, but I think it you were right to

ask for other thoughts, I only have my opinion, and an active

debate really helps.

 

Hi Natasha

I'd stay quiet if I was you - I feel that presenting a good

argument to a Nightingale believer runs the risk of providing

the opportunity to formulate a dismissive argument to it.  (a

dismissive argument can be convincing if believed by the

proposer, even if it is based on a misunderstanding) and is

exhausting.   I would simply demonstrate to her your faith in

your knowledge by embodying it, don't feel intimidated into

justifying yourself, you've seen the results we get.   (And why

not have a pot of your best external preparation for bruises or

muscle strain to proffer to any takers if the opportunity

arises!)  I've had a number of converts thanks to strong

hypericum oil at an opportune moment......  but non greasy and

strong is probably best. - I use Avicennas comfrey cream with

added comfrey tincture, hypericum infused oil, boswellia and

lavandula essential oils - (keeps me going when the joints and

tendons play up, and when I made my own comfrey many years ago,

I couldn't keep up with the demand, because  comfrey ointment

really works.)   Actions/results speak louder than words! - most

of our loudest advocates are people who have been helped by

herbs when orthodoxy has nothing to offer.  (When I broke my

hands, I sat for hours in A and E dreaming of neatly packaged

Hypericum oil soaked dressings. Really would have helped ;-)

(they could be packaged similarly to the ones they do with

iodine - any manufacturers out there? please develop! clumsy

people everywhere would thank you ;-))

Good luck Natasha, hope your garden thrives

Sally Owen

Hi All,

A friend of mine over dinner a few weeks ago told

me she was one of the founding members of the

Nightingale Collabration! A caring, lovely lady who does

plenty for our local community, she is helping me set up

a community herb garden. She knew my views on their

beliefs(not positive) before telling me her involvement,

I appriciated her honesty. I do not wish to get into

politics. We both have respect for each other.

I feel inexperienced to discuss at great lengths

with her the differences of opinon between us, as I now

feel like a herbal representative to the collabration.

We have not discussed anything since that evening(I kept

my shocked opinon quiet and listened).

Help...do I never discuss the subject again or do

I try and put a scientific viewpoint to her about HM?

Thanks for any input.

Natasha

From:

To: ukherbal-list

Sent:

Monday, May 7, 2012 12:42 PM

Subject:

Re: Interesting Economist poll

 

Hi Kerry

I just had a look at this poll.

I wondered about the wording - says should CAm

be taught in medical schools. It raises the

question - what do they mean by that? I they

mean should medical students be taught e.g.

herbal medicine, then the answer is a definite

no.

House of Lords Select Committee (was it 2000 or

2001?) recommended all doctors wanting to

"train" should not do weekend courses etc, but

undergo full and proper training. I agree with

that.

But if they mean - should medical students have

awareness raised, then the answer is 'yes'. And

the best way would be by practitioners of the

subject.

If they mean, should CAM be taught in any

university, then again, the answer would be yes.

Of course it raises the status of CAM, but it's

important that happens and goes on to be the

case. Weekend type courses = no proper training

and lumps properly trained practitioners into

the same category.

I voted. You get the figures when you vote.

Currently stands at roughly 12500 with a NO vote

of 79%.

It's only a rough poll and with limited

circulation but no doubt the skeptics will use

it to further reduce support.

best wishes

>

> > http://www.economist.com/economist-asks/should-alternative-medicine-be-taught-medical-schools

> >

> >

>

>

> --

> Kerry Hackett, MNIMH, AHG, OHA

> Medical Herbalist

> www.kerryhackett.ca

>

-- Sally Owen

MNIMH

Medical Herbalist

Mid Wales

-- Sally Owen

MNIMH

Medical Herbalist

Mid Wales

-- Sally Owen

MNIMH

Medical Herbalist

Mid Wales

[Guest guest]

Sally,I know, it is a mindfield and I'm concerned for future talks with my friend. I won't be offering anything that has any controversial issues surrounding it. Doubt she would take anything at this stage, although does believe in and takes garlic to help keep well!She is a community woman and in time, once I get through the course, she will hear of results through the local grapevine.I will be careful what is in the community herb garden, a healthly dose of paranoria is ok. Another thought is has she ever encountered a medical herbalist before? I don't think so...there is a lot of misinformation about herbs on the internet. Not something I had looked at for years and I had a

quick scan after that night and I was astounded. That is something we will agree on.Your message was very helpful to me and I appriciate your thoughts. I will be very careful.CheersNatasha x To: ukherbal-list Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2012 2:37 PM Subject: Re: Nightingale

collabration and additional thoughts

Morning thoughts......

- I just recieved a survey with questions regarding the external use

of comfrey and our views on it's safety - so even that is apparently

potentially contentious :-( , - also, I think I got on my soapbox

there a little, apologies, possibly not helpful ;-)

But I do stand by the advice not to feel obliged to argue the point

with her, and of the risk of spiking our own guns by allowing NC

members a chance to prepare counter arguments. If I was feeling

really conspiracy theorist, I'd wonder about her motives for

rngaging in a herb garden.......

Incidentally - I've been using comfrey liberally for donkey's years

on myself - and I'm truly grateful for it's efficacy and safety and

will carry on doing so, and on my patients unless any actual data

suggests otherwise. ;-) But hypericum oil is also wonderful, and

I would like to retract my recommendation to offer comfrey ointment

to a Nightingale colaborator! (her loss!)

atb

Sally Owen

PS written before reading your recent post. - the point about

effective medicine stands, and I am gutted to have to think so

defensively around these people - it is very conflicting.

Feel free to email me directly, but I think it you were right to ask

for other thoughts, I only have my opinion, and an active debate

really helps.

Hi Natasha

I'd stay quiet if I was you - I feel that presenting a good

argument to a Nightingale believer runs the risk of providing the

opportunity to formulate a dismissive argument to it. (a

dismissive argument can be convincing if believed by the proposer,

even if it is based on a misunderstanding) and is exhausting. I

would simply demonstrate to her your faith in your knowledge by

embodying it, don't feel intimidated into justifying yourself,

you've seen the results we get. (And why not have a pot of your

best external preparation for bruises or muscle strain to proffer

to any takers if the opportunity arises!) I've had a number of

converts thanks to strong hypericum oil at an opportune

moment...... but non greasy and strong is probably best. - I use

Avicennas comfrey cream with added comfrey tincture, hypericum

infused oil, boswellia and lavandula essential oils - (keeps me

going when the joints and tendons play up, and when I made my own

comfrey many years ago, I couldn't keep up with the demand,

because comfrey ointment really works.) Actions/results speak

louder than words! - most of our loudest advocates are people who

have been helped by herbs when orthodoxy has nothing to offer.

(When I broke my hands, I sat for hours in A and E dreaming of

neatly packaged Hypericum oil soaked dressings. Really would have

helped ;-) (they could be packaged similarly to the ones they do

with iodine - any manufacturers out there? please develop! clumsy

people everywhere would thank you ;-))

Good luck Natasha, hope your garden thrives

Sally Owen

Hi All,

A friend of mine over dinner a few weeks ago told

me she was one of the founding members of the Nightingale

Collabration! A caring, lovely lady who does plenty for

our local community, she is helping me set up a community

herb garden. She knew my views on their beliefs(not

positive) before telling me her involvement, I appriciated

her honesty. I do not wish to get into politics. We both

have respect for each other.

I feel inexperienced to discuss at great lengths

with her the differences of opinon between us, as I now

feel like a herbal representative to the collabration. We

have not discussed anything since that evening(I kept my

shocked opinon quiet and listened).

Help...do I never discuss the subject again or do I

try and put a scientific viewpoint to her about HM?

Thanks for any input.

Natasha

From:

To: ukherbal-list

Sent:

Monday, May 7, 2012 12:42 PM

Subject:

Re: Interesting Economist poll

Hi Kerry

I just had a look at this poll.

I wondered about the wording - says should CAm be

taught in medical schools. It raises the question

- what do they mean by that? I they mean should

medical students be taught e.g. herbal medicine,

then the answer is a definite no.

House of Lords Select Committee (was it 2000 or

2001?) recommended all doctors wanting to "train"

should not do weekend courses etc, but undergo

full and proper training. I agree with that.

But if they mean - should medical students have

awareness raised, then the answer is 'yes'. And

the best way would be by practitioners of the

subject.

If they mean, should CAM be taught in any

university, then again, the answer would be yes.

Of course it raises the status of CAM, but it's

important that happens and goes on to be the case.

Weekend type courses = no proper training and

lumps properly trained practitioners into the same

category.

I voted. You get the figures when you vote.

Currently stands at roughly 12500 with a NO vote

of 79%.

It's only a rough poll and with limited

circulation but no doubt the skeptics will use it

to further reduce support.

best wishes

>

> > http://www.economist.com/economist-asks/should-alternative-medicine-be-taught-medical-schools

> >

> >

>

>

> --

> Kerry Hackett, MNIMH, AHG, OHA

> Medical Herbalist

> www.kerryhackett.ca

>

-- Sally Owen

MNIMH

Medical Herbalist

Mid Wales

-- Sally Owen

MNIMH

Medical Herbalist

Mid Wales

[Guest guest]

Hi Natasha

I would agree with Sally.

You are likely to be hitting your head against a brick wall.

Best advice is just to be yourself - be the herbalist you want to be. Those who

have ears to ear will hear.

It's almost impossible to make someone change their mind - especially if they

have fixed views. Years ago I read something that was basically - change a mood

not a mind.

About 2 years ago I went to a Businesslink seminar and the man giving it had

some advice.

Basically he said - don't answer questions or statement or try to refute them,

instead ask the person " what makes you think that? "

I've found since then that when I apply this tactic and keep on -

that's interesting, why did you come to that thought? oh really, why do you

think that

a bit like a 2 -3 year old with the incessant 'why'

then the person eventually uncovers or exposes their own prejudice or ignorance.

You won't win anything by coming up with arguments - so just don't engage in

them. Instead, wheedle out of them why they think that.

Usually they find that they actually don't know. Or it's founded on some

nonsense idea.

And all you have done is expose it.

Same with the misinformation - just expose it for what it actually is. Ask why,

who etc.

I read something yesterday called " introduction to Herbal medicine History " .

Turned out to be written by a bike messenger.

best wishes