Re: Nightingale collabration

[Guest guest]

Hi All,A friend of mine over dinner a few weeks ago told me she was one of the founding members of the Nightingale Collabration! A caring, lovely lady who does plenty for our local community, she is helping me set up a community herb garden. She knew my views on their beliefs(not positive) before telling me her involvement, I appriciated her honesty. I do not wish to get into politics. We both have respect for each other.I feel inexperienced to discuss at great lengths with her the differences of opinon between us, as I now feel like a herbal representative to the collabration. We have not discussed anything since that evening(I kept my shocked opinon quiet and listened).Help...do I

never discuss the subject again or do I try and put a scientific viewpoint to her about HM? Thanks for any input.Natasha To: ukherbal-list Sent: Monday, May 7, 2012 12:42 PM Subject: Re: Interesting Economist poll

Hi Kerry

I just had a look at this poll.

I wondered about the wording - says should CAm be taught in medical schools. It raises the question - what do they mean by that? I they mean should medical students be taught e.g. herbal medicine, then the answer is a definite no.

House of Lords Select Committee (was it 2000 or 2001?) recommended all doctors wanting to "train" should not do weekend courses etc, but undergo full and proper training. I agree with that.

But if they mean - should medical students have awareness raised, then the answer is 'yes'. And the best way would be by practitioners of the subject.

If they mean, should CAM be taught in any university, then again, the answer would be yes. Of course it raises the status of CAM, but it's important that happens and goes on to be the case. Weekend type courses = no proper training and lumps properly trained practitioners into the same category.

I voted. You get the figures when you vote.

Currently stands at roughly 12500 with a NO vote of 79%.

It's only a rough poll and with limited circulation but no doubt the skeptics will use it to further reduce support.

best wishes

>

> > http://www.economist.com/economist-asks/should-alternative-medicine-be-taught-medical-schools

> >

> >

>

>

> --

> Kerry Hackett, MNIMH, AHG, OHA

> Medical Herbalist

> www.kerryhackett.ca

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Natasha

I'd stay quiet if I was you - I feel that presenting a good argument

to a Nightingale believer runs the risk of providing the opportunity

to formulate a dismissive argument to it.  (a dismissive argument

can be convincing if believed by the proposer, even if it is based

on a misunderstanding) and is exhausting.   I would simply

demonstrate to her your faith in your knowledge by embodying it,

don't feel intimidated into justifying yourself, you've seen the

results we get.   (And why not have a pot of your best external

preparation for bruises or muscle strain to proffer to any takers if

the opportunity arises!)  I've had a number of converts thanks to

strong hypericum oil at an opportune moment......  but non greasy

and strong is probably best. - I use Avicennas comfrey cream with

added comfrey tincture, hypericum infused oil, boswellia and

lavandula essential oils - (keeps me going when the joints and

tendons play up, and when I made my own comfrey many years ago, I

couldn't keep up with the demand, because  comfrey ointment really

works.)   Actions/results speak louder than words! - most of our

loudest advocates are people who have been helped by herbs when

orthodoxy has nothing to offer.  (When I broke my hands, I sat for

hours in A and E dreaming of neatly packaged Hypericum oil soaked

dressings. Really would have helped ;-) (they could be packaged

similarly to the ones they do with iodine - any manufacturers out

there? please develop! clumsy people everywhere would thank you ;-))

Good luck Natasha, hope your garden thrives

Sally Owen

Hi All,

A friend of mine over dinner a few weeks ago told me

she was one of the founding members of the Nightingale

Collabration! A caring, lovely lady who does plenty for our

local community, she is helping me set up a community herb

garden. She knew my views on their beliefs(not positive)

before telling me her involvement, I appriciated her

honesty. I do not wish to get into politics. We both have

respect for each other.

I feel inexperienced to discuss at great lengths with

her the differences of opinon between us, as I now feel like

a herbal representative to the collabration. We have not

discussed anything since that evening(I kept my shocked

opinon quiet and listened).

Help...do I never discuss the subject again or do I

try and put a scientific viewpoint to her about HM?

Thanks for any input.

Natasha

From:

To:

ukherbal-list

Sent:

Monday, May 7, 2012 12:42 PM

Subject:

Re: Interesting Economist poll

 

Hi Kerry

I just had a look at this poll.

I wondered about the wording - says should CAm be

taught in medical schools. It raises the question -

what do they mean by that? I they mean should

medical students be taught e.g. herbal medicine,

then the answer is a definite no.

House of Lords Select Committee (was it 2000 or

2001?) recommended all doctors wanting to "train"

should not do weekend courses etc, but undergo full

and proper training. I agree with that.

But if they mean - should medical students have

awareness raised, then the answer is 'yes'. And the

best way would be by practitioners of the subject.

If they mean, should CAM be taught in any

university, then again, the answer would be yes. Of

course it raises the status of CAM, but it's

important that happens and goes on to be the case.

Weekend type courses = no proper training and lumps

properly trained practitioners into the same

category.

I voted. You get the figures when you vote.

Currently stands at roughly 12500 with a NO vote of

79%.

It's only a rough poll and with limited circulation

but no doubt the skeptics will use it to further

reduce support.

best wishes

>

> >

http://www.economist.com/economist-asks/should-alternative-medicine-be-taught-medical-schools

> >

> >

>

>

> --

> Kerry Hackett, MNIMH, AHG, OHA

> Medical Herbalist

> www.kerryhackett.ca

>

-- Sally Owen

MNIMH

Medical Herbalist

Mid Wales

[Guest guest]

For my information, what is the Nightingale collaboration, please?......answer privately if you do not want to clog the list....

  Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.

"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"

Visit my new website www.naturamedica.webs.com

-- Re: Interesting Economist poll

Hi KerryI just had a look at this poll.I wondered about the wording - says should CAm be taught in medical schools. It raises the question - what do they mean by that? I they mean should medical students be taught e.g. herbal medicine, then the answer is a definite no. House of Lords Select Committee (was it 2000 or 2001?) recommended all doctors wanting to "train" should not do weekend courses etc, but undergo full and proper training. I agree with that. But if they mean - should medical students have awareness raised, then the answer is 'yes'. And the best way would be by practitioners of the subject.If they mean, should CAM be taught in any university, then again, the answer would be yes. Of course it raises the status of CAM, but it's important that happens and goes on to be the case. Weekend type courses = no proper training and lumps properly trained practitioners into the same category. I voted. You get the figures when you vote. Currently stands at roughly 12500 with a NO vote of 79%.It's only a rough poll and with limited circulation but no doubt the skeptics will use it to further reduce support. best wishes>> > http://www.economist.com/economist-asks/should-alternative-medicine-be-taught-medical-schools > >> > > > > -- > Kerry Hackett, MNIMH, AHG, OHA> Medical Herbalist> www.kerryhackett.ca>

-- Sally Owen

MNIMH

Medical Herbalist

Mid Wales

[Guest guest]

Hi Sally,Thank you. You are right, actions and time. I feel so emotive about the NC esp after UEL. I thought of you with your work on EBM, should have e-mailed you directly.There is plenty of comfrey in the garden. :-)Thank you again Sally.Natasha xx To: ukherbal-list Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2012 12:04 AM Subject: Re: Nightingale collabration

Hi Natasha

I'd stay quiet if I was you - I feel that presenting a good argument

to a Nightingale believer runs the risk of providing the opportunity

to formulate a dismissive argument to it. (a dismissive argument

can be convincing if believed by the proposer, even if it is based

on a misunderstanding) and is exhausting. I would simply

demonstrate to her your faith in your knowledge by embodying it,

don't feel intimidated into justifying yourself, you've seen the

results we get. (And why not have a pot of your best external

preparation for bruises or muscle strain to proffer to any takers if

the opportunity arises!) I've had a number of converts thanks to

strong hypericum oil at an opportune moment...... but non greasy

and strong is probably best. - I use Avicennas comfrey cream with

added comfrey tincture, hypericum infused oil, boswellia and

lavandula essential oils - (keeps me going when the joints and

tendons play up, and when I made my own comfrey many years ago, I

couldn't keep up with the demand, because comfrey ointment really

works.) Actions/results speak louder than words! - most of our

loudest advocates are people who have been helped by herbs when

orthodoxy has nothing to offer. (When I broke my hands, I sat for

hours in A and E dreaming of neatly packaged Hypericum oil soaked

dressings. Really would have helped ;-) (they could be packaged

similarly to the ones they do with iodine - any manufacturers out

there? please develop! clumsy people everywhere would thank you ;-))

Good luck Natasha, hope your garden thrives

Sally Owen

Hi All,

A friend of mine over dinner a few weeks ago told me

she was one of the founding members of the Nightingale

Collabration! A caring, lovely lady who does plenty for our

local community, she is helping me set up a community herb

garden. She knew my views on their beliefs(not positive)

before telling me her involvement, I appriciated her

honesty. I do not wish to get into politics. We both have

respect for each other.

I feel inexperienced to discuss at great lengths with

her the differences of opinon between us, as I now feel like

a herbal representative to the collabration. We have not

discussed anything since that evening(I kept my shocked

opinon quiet and listened).

Help...do I never discuss the subject again or do I

try and put a scientific viewpoint to her about HM?

Thanks for any input.

Natasha

From:

To:

ukherbal-list

Sent:

Monday, May 7, 2012 12:42 PM

Subject:

Re: Interesting Economist poll

Hi Kerry

I just had a look at this poll.

I wondered about the wording - says should CAm be

taught in medical schools. It raises the question -

what do they mean by that? I they mean should

medical students be taught e.g. herbal medicine,

then the answer is a definite no.

House of Lords Select Committee (was it 2000 or

2001?) recommended all doctors wanting to "train"

should not do weekend courses etc, but undergo full

and proper training. I agree with that.

But if they mean - should medical students have

awareness raised, then the answer is 'yes'. And the

best way would be by practitioners of the subject.

If they mean, should CAM be taught in any

university, then again, the answer would be yes. Of

course it raises the status of CAM, but it's

important that happens and goes on to be the case.

Weekend type courses = no proper training and lumps

properly trained practitioners into the same

category.

I voted. You get the figures when you vote.

Currently stands at roughly 12500 with a NO vote of

79%.

It's only a rough poll and with limited circulation

but no doubt the skeptics will use it to further

reduce support.

best wishes

>

> >

http://www.economist.com/economist-asks/should-alternative-medicine-be-taught-medical-schools

> >

> >

>

>

> --

> Kerry Hackett, MNIMH, AHG, OHA

> Medical Herbalist

> www.kerryhackett.ca

>

-- Sally Owen

MNIMH

Medical Herbalist

Mid Wales

[Guest guest]

Hi Joe

The Nightingale Collaboration is a gang of skeptics who claim to protect the

public from misleading advertising. Self appointed of course.

Last year they tried to organise themselves to make complaints to the ASA

(advertising Standards Authority) - complaining about what was written on

various people's websites.

They began with homeopathy and lodged about 600 complaints with the ASA.

The following month they opted for cranio-sacral therapy.

by the 3rd month the ASA got wise to them.

They are in bed with the likes of Sense About Science, Bad Science, Quackbusters

and so on. The usual suspects all feeding off each other - evangelical about

their supposed scientific stance. (As your signature says - the enemy of science

.....)

There is also a gang of very popular comedians who are part of the skeptic

brigade, and use their comic " genius " and public exposure to do all they can to

denounce any form of CAM. They include the likes of Dara O'Brien, Fry,

Marcus Brigstock, , Sandy Toksvig, Jo Brand and many more. They're

on TV or radio all the time in the UK. And are very popular. The chiropractors

libel case go most of them on board. They get lots of media exposure -

celebrities.

The best thing to do with them is ignore them and not give them any

encouragement.

Don't feed the trolls as the saying goes. Just keep a slightly watchful on them.

Things go in waves - they'll hit the bottom (or top) before long and it'll swing

back in our direction. Eventually the press will get bored with them - they'll

stop selling stories.

best wishes

[Guest guest]

I've had several patients tell me recently that they are afraid of being struck

off their doctor's lists. They haven't even told their doctors they're seeing

me, but have just not been doing things the doc wants them to do e.g. take

statins,

Unfortunately it is as describes - where the power lies. And it's not

with the patients.

best wishes

[Guest guest]

,What if practitioners pooled reports of these fears that patients have of GPs and published it ?Wouldn't that be one in the eye for the anti-herbal bullies?Are we brave enough?

 

I've had several patients tell me recently that they are afraid of being struck off their doctor's lists. They haven't even told their doctors they're seeing me, but have just not been doing things the doc wants them to do e.g. take statins,

Unfortunately it is as describes - where the power lies. And it's not with the patients.

best wishes

-- Chenery     MNIMH MCPP MSB QPDirector, Rutland Biodynamics Ltd.,

Organic Medicinal Herb Growers andDepartment of Health (MHRA) Licensed Medicines Manufacturer,

Town Park Farm, , Rutland, LE15 8DG, UKEmail: pc@...

Website: www.rutlandbio.comConfidentiality: This e-mail and its attachments are intended for the above named only and may be confidential. If they have come to you in error you must take no action based on them, nor must you copy or show them to anyone; please reply to this e-mail and highlight the error. Security Warning: Please note that this e-mail has been created in the knowledge that Internet e-mail is not a 100% secure communications medium. We advise that you understand and observe this lack of security when e-mailing us. Viruses: Although we have taken steps to ensure that this e-mail and attachments are free from any virus, we advise that in keeping with good computing practice the recipient should ensure they are actually virus free.

[Guest guest]

Now, , there's a thought and a half.

I'll look into it.

>

> > **

> >

> >

> > I've had several patients tell me recently that they are afraid of being

> > struck off their doctor's lists. They haven't even told their doctors

> > they're seeing me, but have just not been doing things the doc wants them

> > to do e.g. take statins,

> >

> > Unfortunately it is as describes - where the power lies. And it's

> > not with the patients.

> > best wishes

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

> --

> Chenery MNIMH MCPP MSB QP

> Director, Rutland Biodynamics Ltd.,

> Organic Medicinal Herb Growers and

> Department of Health (MHRA) Licensed Medicines Manufacturer,

> Town Park Farm, , Rutland, LE15 8DG, UK

>

> Email: pc@...

> Website: www.rutlandbio.com

>

> Confidentiality: This e-mail and its attachments are intended for the above

> named only and may be confidential. If they have come to you in error you

> must take no action based on them, nor must you copy or show them to

> anyone; please reply to this e-mail and highlight the error.

> Security Warning: Please note that this e-mail has been created in the

> knowledge that Internet e-mail is not a 100% secure communications medium.

> We advise that you understand and observe this lack of security when

> e-mailing us.

> Viruses: Although we have taken steps to ensure that this e-mail and

> attachments are free from any virus, we advise that in keeping with good

> computing practice the recipient should ensure they are actually virus free.

>

[Guest guest]

What a good idea, .

There's plenty of studies reporting that patients don't tell doctors about taking other treatments but the only conclusion they seem to come to is to say that doctors should ask patients if they are taking anything else. They never seem to ask 'why' patients don't tell them. But then, all the doctors I've come across haven't been strong on asking the 'why' question about anything, including the cause of the disease.

But following up on a's post, the obnoxious dc science website/coquhoun propaganda site ran the following in January this year, congratulating themselves on closing down so many 'quack' courses, reducing from 45 degrees in 16 universities in 2007 to, effectively, only 18 courses in 8 universities in 2012.

http://www.dcscience.net/?p=4900

They list out those still offering HM courses - only 3 (Lincoln, Middlesex and Westminster - what has happened to UEL?)

Whilst taking on dc science and that lot directly is like hitting your head against a brick wall - surely we need to be doing something rather than expecting it all to turn out right in the end. If they continue to exert such obviously effective pressure - where will the next generation of herbalists come from?

Anne

[Guest guest]

Back in the 1990's I attended a conference on holistic medicine. The

hall where the keynote speaker lectured held around 1000 people and

the room was packed. The speaker asked how many had been in clinic

with a complementary practitioner; everyone put up their hand. Then

he asked how many had mentioned this to their doctors. Yes, you

guessed it. Not a single person raised their hand.

I've often asked patients why they won't talk to their doctor about

their use of herbal medicines. The answers range from, "He/she won't

like me if he finds out I'm seeing someone else" to "I may lose

him/her if they find out I'm going to a herbalist and there are no

other doctors in this area". There is real fear out there. And some

doctors take advantage of this. Again, I once had a patient whose

son had ADHD. She had noticed his symptoms had changed and mentioned

this to the pediatrician during a visit. The doctor became irate and

stabbing his finger at his framed medical diploma, shouted, "Do you

have one of these? If not, how would you know anything about your

son?" As she told me this story she broke into tears.

Unfortunately, we all could relate stories such as this. Where is

the 'care' in medical care today?

Kind regards,

Kerry

I've had several patients tell me recently that they are

afraid of being struck off their doctor's lists. They

haven't even told their doctors they're seeing me, but

have just not been doing things the doc wants them to do

e.g. take statins,

Unfortunately it is as describes - where the power

lies. And it's not with the patients.

best wishes

-- Kerry Hackett, MNIMH, AHG, OHA

Medical Herbalist

www.kerryhackett.ca

[Guest guest]

With all due respect, sincerely, I am really flabbergasted that people, patients, actually clients paying money for a service, either directly or indirectly through a social security system, do not react and put such practitioners back in their places.

There are so many consumer's rights organisations that will give advice on haw to fight if you received bad service at a supermarket, yet the very same people who would maybe abuse a cashier at a check-out for not working fast enough let themselves be treated like worthless pieces of garbage.

I honestly cannot understand that attitude.

Don't people stand up for themselves any more?

It is not even a question of medicine, it is plain courtesy and human rights, the right to choose and decide for oneself.

I do not want to give anyone so far away any advice, but maybe it is time to organise a backlash?????

Joe.

  Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.

"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"

Visit my new website www.naturamedica.webs.com

-- Re: Re: Nightingale collabration

Back in the 1990's I attended a conference on holistic medicine. The hall where the keynote speaker lectured held around 1000 people and the room was packed. The speaker asked how many had been in clinic with a complementary practitioner; everyone put up their hand. Then he asked how many had mentioned this to their doctors. Yes, you guessed it. Not a single person raised their hand. I've often asked patients why they won't talk to their doctor about their use of herbal medicines. The answers range from, "He/she won't like me if he finds out I'm seeing someone else" to "I may lose him/her if they find out I'm going to a herbalist and there are no other doctors in this area". There is real fear out there. And some doctors take advantage of this. Again, I once had a patient whose son had ADHD. She had noticed his symptoms had changed and mentioned this to the pediatrician during a visit. The doctor became irate and stabbing his finger at his framed medical diploma, shouted, "Do you have one of these? If not, how would you know anything about your son?" As she told me this story she broke into tears. Unfortunately, we all could relate stories such as this. Where is the 'care' in medical care today?Kind regards,Kerry

I've had several patients tell me recently that they are afraid of being struck off their doctor's lists. They haven't even told their doctors they're seeing me, but have just not been doing things the doc wants them to do e.g. take statins, Unfortunately it is as describes - where the power lies. And it's not with the patients.best wishes-- Kerry Hackett, MNIMH, AHG, OHA

Medical Herbalist

www.kerryhackett.ca

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