Re: Insomnia

[Guest guest]

Hi Helen,

I've had good results with my patients using Withania somnifera powder obtained from Pukka. One and a half heaped teaspoons of powder thoroughly mixed in a small amount of water and taken about an hour or two before bedtime. I use this dosage for 'fiery' young men. After about a week or so, I reduce the dose to one heaped teaspoon per night. For ladies and the elderly I tend to stick to one heaped teaspoon per night or even less than that if they don't need so much. The powder can also be mixed in warm milk if the patient is able to drink milk. I combine this with asking the patient not to have any caffeine, alcohol, sugary food or cold drinks before bedtime.

The Withania did not magically give the patient a full 8 hours of sleep, but it did increase the number of hours the patient slept and it was a deeper sleep. The patient may then feel less stressed about the insomnia itself and have a chance to move into a positive cycle.

Worthwhile finding out of the patient has anything worrying them and if they can do anything to alleviate that. With some of my patients there were significant life changes stressing them out but they were unaware of the connection. I needed to educate them about the connection and this helped them take measures that eased their situations. But they were only able to focus on these changes once they were feeling more positive about having some control over their insomnia which had become a secondary source of stress.

One of my patients had such a severe problem with insomnia that he needed to combine one heaped teaspoon of Withania with sleeping pills for approx 4 weeks before regaining his normal sleeping pattern. He began with an entire sleeping pill and then titrated it down to half, then a quarter and finally none over the 4 week period using a simple pill cutter. After that he took just the Withania for approx 2 months. After that he felt confident about trying to sleep without any help. Combining the Withania with the sleeping pills was useful to this patient because he could fall asleep but could not stay asleep with the sleeping pills alone. The patient was not on any other medication and not taking any other herbs. The patient had previously tried Valerian, Verbena, Hops, Chamomile, ...etc but they

did not do much for him. The patient had even tried Kava Kava (obtained by the patient from the US) but did not like the heavy drugy feeling that it gave him. In contrast, Withania felt much lighter but was still effective.

In my experience, it was interesting that Withania did not appear to lose its efficacy for treating insomnia even when used long term. Have other practitioners experienced the same?

Best wishes and hope this was helpful,

Bindu.

To: ukherbal-list Sent: Wednesday, 23 May 2012, 11:57Subject: Insomnia

PLEASE can someone help me. I find it mind bogglingly hard to treat patients that have the kind of insomnia that they go off to sleep really well then wake at 3am and that's it for the night. They are nearly crying with tiredness and nothing I do is helping. I've tried Escholtzia, Lactuca, Piscidia and we are about to do Valeriana/Passiflora and a couple of others but I suspect I know what the results will be.....no good!Thanks you allHelen Ellis

[Guest guest]

I love Withania for peple with sleep problems - it helps restore energy too. I use tincture in mainmix, and I have had elderly patients with high BP and arthriitis on it long term, still effective. I use it as a tincture in main mixFor sleep hygiene - emphasise to your patient how important it is not to put the light on when they wake,(interferes with melatonin secretion cycle, and to try not to allow their adrenals to "kick in" - avoid thinking about things that worry them , rather think about things they enjoy, relaxation techniques etc.. I also tell my patients to dilute a second dose of sleep mix when they take it before sleep, so some can be taken while emerging from sleep, before full wakefulness. My standard sleep mix is Valerian, Scutt lat and Passiflora. If patient reacts to Valerian, substitute Eschcolzia or Lactuca.Re Liver involvement, it's worth asking them to avoid alcohol for a while - it may help with relaxing and dropping off, but tends to produce waking in the nightWaking at around 4.00 in the morning can be a symptom of depression, worth considering.And Tilia tea helps increase overall relaxation and reduce stress. Lovely stuff.good luckSallyHi Helen, I've had good results with my patients using Withania somnifera powder obtained from Pukka. One and a half heaped teaspoons of powderthoroughly mixed in a small amount of water and taken about an hour or two before bedtime. I use this dosage for 'fiery' young men. After about a week or so, I reduce the dose to one heaped teaspoon per night. For ladies and the elderly I tend to stick to one heaped teaspoon per night or even less than that if they don't need so much. The powder can also be mixed in warm milk if the patient is able to drink milk. I combine this with asking the patient not to have any caffeine, alcohol, sugary food or cold drinks before bedtime. The Withania did not magically give the patient a full 8 hours of sleep, but it did increase the number of hours the patient slept and it was a deeper sleep. The patient may then feel less stressed about the insomnia itself and have a chance to move into a positive cycle. Worthwhile finding out of the patient has anything worrying them and if they can do anything to alleviate that. With some of my patients there were significant life changes stressing them out but they were unaware of the connection. I needed to educate them about the connection and this helped them take measures that eased their situations. But they were only able to focus on these changes once they were feeling more positive about having some control over their insomnia which had become a secondary source of stress. One of my patients had such a severe problem with insomnia that he needed to combine one heaped teaspoon of Withania with sleeping pills for approx 4 weeks before regaining his normal sleeping pattern. He began with an entire sleeping pill and then titrated it down to half, then a quarter and finally none over the 4 week period using a simple pill cutter. After that he took just the Withania for approx 2 months. After that he felt confident about trying to sleep without any help. Combining the Withania with the sleeping pills was useful to this patient because he could fall asleep but could not stay asleep with the sleeping pills alone. The patient was not on any other medication and not taking any other herbs. The patient had previously tried Valerian, Verbena, Hops, Chamomile, ...etc but they did not do much for him. The patient had even tried Kava Kava (obtained by the patient from the US) but did not like the heavy drugy feeling that it gave him. In contrast, Withania felt much lighter but was still effective. In my experience, it was interesting that Withania did not appear to lose its efficacy for treating insomnia even when used long term. Have other practitioners experienced the same? Best wishes and hope this was helpful,Bindu. To: ukherbal-list Sent: Wednesday, 23 May 2012, 11:57Subject: InsomniaPLEASE can someone help me. I find it mind bogglingly hard to treat patients that have the kind of insomnia that they go off to sleep really well then wake at 3am and that's it for the night. They are nearly crying with tiredness and nothing I do is helping. I've tried Escholtzia, Lactuca, Piscidia and we are about to do Valeriana/Passiflora and a couple of others but I suspect I know what the results will be.....no good!Thanks you allHelen Ellis

[Guest guest]

Oh, and I agree with Magnesium supplements, alongside B complex vitamins, as long term insomnia and stress will deplete both of theseSallyI love Withania for peple with sleep problems - it helps restore energy too. I use tincture in mainmix, and I have had elderly patients with high BP and arthriitis on it long term, still effective. I use it as a tincture in main mixFor sleep hygiene - emphasise to your patient how important it is not to put the light on when they wake,(interferes with melatonin secretion cycle, and to try not to allow their adrenals to "kick in" - avoid thinking about things that worry them , rather think about things they enjoy, relaxation techniques etc.. I also tell my patients to dilute a second dose of sleep mix when they take it before sleep, so some can be taken while emerging from sleep, before full wakefulness. My standard sleep mix is Valerian, Scutt lat and Passiflora. If patient reacts to Valerian, substitute Eschcolzia or Lactuca.Re Liver involvement, it's worth asking them to avoid alcohol for a while - it may help with relaxing and dropping off, but tends to produce waking in the nightWaking at around 4.00 in the morning can be a symptom of depression, worth considering.And Tilia tea helps increase overall relaxation and reduce stress. Lovely stuff.good luckSallyHi Helen, I've had good results with my patients using Withania somnifera powder obtained from Pukka. One and a half heaped teaspoons of powderthoroughly mixed in a small amount of water and taken about an hour or two before bedtime. I use this dosage for 'fiery' young men. After about a week or so, I reduce the dose to one heaped teaspoon per night. For ladies and the elderly I tend to stick to one heaped teaspoon per night or even less than that if they don't need so much. The powder can also be mixed in warm milk if the patient is able to drink milk. I combine this with asking the patient not to have any caffeine, alcohol, sugary food or cold drinks before bedtime. The Withania did not magically give the patient a full 8 hours of sleep, but it did increase the number of hours the patient slept and it was a deeper sleep. The patient may then feel less stressed about the insomnia itself and have a chance to move into a positive cycle. Worthwhile finding out of the patient has anything worrying them and if they can do anything to alleviate that. With some of my patients there were significant life changes stressing them out but they were unaware of the connection. I needed to educate them about the connection and this helped them take measures that eased their situations. But they were only able to focus on these changes once they were feeling more positive about having some control over their insomnia which had become a secondary source of stress. One of my patients had such a severe problem with insomnia that he needed to combine one heaped teaspoon of Withania with sleeping pills for approx 4 weeks before regaining his normal sleeping pattern. He began with an entire sleeping pill and then titrated it down to half, then a quarter and finally none over the 4 week period using a simple pill cutter. After that he took just the Withania for approx 2 months. After that he felt confident about trying to sleep without any help. Combining the Withania with the sleeping pills was useful to this patient because he could fall asleep but could not stay asleep with the sleeping pills alone. The patient was not on any other medication and not taking any other herbs. The patient had previously tried Valerian, Verbena, Hops, Chamomile, ...etc but they did not do much for him. The patient had even tried Kava Kava (obtained by the patient from the US) but did not like the heavy drugy feeling that it gave him. In contrast, Withania felt much lighter but was still effective. In my experience, it was interesting that Withania did not appear to lose its efficacy for treating insomnia even when used long term. Have other practitioners experienced the same? Best wishes and hope this was helpful,Bindu. To: ukherbal-list Sent: Wednesday, 23 May 2012, 11:57Subject: InsomniaPLEASE can someone help me. I find it mind bogglingly hard to treat patients that have the kind of insomnia that they go off to sleep really well then wake at 3am and that's it for the night. They are nearly crying with tiredness and nothing I do is helping. I've tried Escholtzia, Lactuca, Piscidia and we are about to do Valeriana/Passiflora and a couple of others but I suspect I know what the results will be.....no good!Thanks you allHelen Ellis

[Guest guest]

Loving this discussion. But would appreciate comments. I have used passiflora routinely in sleep mixes for the past eight years with absolutely no problems. Then out of the blue in the last three weeks i have had three patients complain of being hyper alert, anxious and up all night after taking sleep mix. The constant in each mix was passiflora. I know this can happen in some cases but has anyone been able to identify a specific "constitution" that this relates to. All my patients seemed very different. JeanSent from Samsung Mobile

Sally Owen wrote:

I love Withania for peple with sleep problems - it helps restore energy too. I use tincture in mainmix, and I have had elderly patients with high BP and arthriitis on it long term, still effective. I use it as a tincture in main mixFor sleep hygiene - emphasise to your patient how important it is not to put the light on when they wake,(interferes with melatonin secretion cycle, and to try not to allow their adrenals to "kick in" - avoid thinking about things that worry them , rather think about things they enjoy, relaxation techniques etc.. I also tell my patients to dilute a second dose of sleep mix when they take it before sleep, so some can be taken while emerging from sleep, before full wakefulness. My standard sleep mix is Valerian, Scutt lat and Passiflora. If patient reacts to Valerian, substitute Eschcolzia or Lactuca.Re Liver involvement, it's worth asking them to avoid alcoho

l for a while - it may help with relaxing and dropping off, but tends to produce waking in the nightWaking at around 4.00 in the morning can be a symptom of depression, worth considering.And Tilia tea helps increase overall relaxation and reduce stress. Lovely stuff.good luckSallyHi Helen, I've had good results with my patients using Withania somnifera powder obtained from Pukka. One and a half heaped teaspoons of powderthoroughly mixed in a small amount of water and taken about an hour or two before bedtime. I use this dosage for 'fiery' young men. After about a week or so, I reduce the dose to one heaped teaspoon per night. For ladies and the elderly I tend to stick to one heaped teaspoon per

night or even less than that if they don't need so much. The powder can also be mixed in warm milk if the patient is able to drink milk. I combine this with asking the patient not to have any caffeine, alcohol, sugary food or cold drinks before bedtime. The Withania did not magically give the patient a full 8 hours of sleep, but it did increase the number of hours the patient slept and it was a deeper sleep. The patient may then feel less stressed about the insomnia itself and have a chance to move into a positive cycle. Worthwhile finding out of the patient has anything worrying them and if they can do

anything to alleviate that. With some of my patients there were significant life changes stressing them out but they were unaware of the connection. I needed to educate them about the connection and this helped them take measures that eased their situations. But they were only able to focus on these changes once they were feeling more positive about having some control over their insomnia which had become a secondary source of stress. One of my patients had such a severe problem with insomnia that he needed to combine one heaped teaspoon of Withania with sleeping pills for approx 4 weeks before regaining his normal sleeping pattern. He began with an entire sleeping pill and then titrated it down to half, then a quarter and finally none ov

er the 4 week period using a simple pill cutter. After that he took just the Withania for approx 2 months. After that he felt confident about trying to sleep without any help. Combining the Withania with the sleeping pills was useful to this patient because he could fall asleep but could not stay asleep with the sleeping pills alone. The patient was not on any other medication and not taking any other herbs. The patient had previously tried Valerian, Verbena, Hops, Chamomile, ...etc but they did not do much for him. The patient had even tried Kava Kava (obtained by the patient from the US) but did not like the heavy drugy feeling that it gave him. In contrast, Withania felt much lighter but was still effective. In my experience, it was interesting that Withania did not appear to lose its efficacy for treating insomnia even when used long term

.. Have other practitioners experienced the same? Best wishes and hope this was helpful,Bindu. To: ukherbal-list Sent: Wednesday, 23 May 2012, 11:57Subject: InsomniaPLEASE can someone help me. I find it mind bogglingly hard to treat patients that have the kind of insomnia that they go off to sleep really well then wake at 3am and that's it for the night. They are nearly crying with tiredness and nothing I do is helping. I've tried Escholtzia, Lactuca, Piscidia and we are about to do Valeriana/Passiflora and a couple of others but I suspect I know what the results will be.....no good!Thanks you allHelen Ellis

[Guest guest]

Hi I seem to remember that paradoxical reaction to hypnotics is due to deficiency of vit B6, it holds true for Valerian, so perhaps for Passiflora, too. To: ukherbal-list Sent: Wednesday, 23 May 2012, 22:02 Subject: Re: Insomnia

Loving this discussion. But would appreciate comments. I have used passiflora routinely in sleep mixes for the past eight years with absolutely no problems. Then out of the blue in the last three weeks i have had three patients complain of being hyper alert, anxious and up all night after taking sleep mix. The constant in each mix was passiflora. I know this can happen in some cases but has anyone been able to identify a specific "constitution" that this relates to. All my patients seemed very different. JeanSent from Samsung Mobile

Sally Owen wrote:

I love Withania for peple with sleep problems - it helps restore energy too. I use tincture in mainmix, and I have had elderly patients with high BP and arthriitis on it long term, still effective. I use it as a tincture in main mixFor sleep hygiene - emphasise to your patient how important it is not to put the light on when they wake,(interferes with melatonin secretion cycle, and to try not to allow their adrenals to "kick in" - avoid thinking about things that worry them , rather think about things they enjoy, relaxation techniques etc.. I also tell my patients to dilute a second dose of sleep mix when they take it before sleep, so some can be taken while emerging from sleep, before full wakefulness. My standard sleep mix is Valerian, Scutt lat and Passiflora. If patient reacts to Valerian, substitute Eschcolzia or Lactuca.Re Liver involvement, it's

worth asking them to avoid alcoho

l for a while - it may help with relaxing and dropping off, but tends to produce waking in the nightWaking at around 4.00 in the morning can be a symptom of depression, worth considering.And Tilia tea helps increase overall relaxation and reduce stress. Lovely stuff.good luckSallyHi Helen, I've had good results with my patients using Withania somnifera powder obtained from Pukka. One and a half heaped teaspoons of powderthoroughly mixed in a small amount of water and taken about an hour or two before bedtime. I use this dosage for 'fiery' young men. After about a week or so, I reduce the dose to one heaped teaspoon per night. For ladies and the elderly I tend to stick to one heaped teaspoon per

night or even less than that if they don't need so much. The powder can also be mixed in warm milk if the patient is able to drink milk. I combine this with asking the patient not to have any caffeine, alcohol, sugary food or cold drinks before bedtime. The Withania did not magically give the patient a full 8 hours of sleep, but it did increase the number of hours the patient slept and it was a deeper sleep. The patient may then feel less stressed about the insomnia itself and have a chance to move into a positive cycle. Worthwhile finding out of the patient has anything worrying them

and if they can do

anything to alleviate that. With some of my patients there were significant life changes stressing them out but they were unaware of the connection. I needed to educate them about the connection and this helped them take measures that eased their situations. But they were only able to focus on these changes once they were feeling more positive about having some control over their insomnia which had become a secondary source of stress. One of my patients had such a severe problem with insomnia that he needed to combine one heaped teaspoon of Withania with sleeping pills for approx 4 weeks before regaining his normal sleeping pattern. He began with an entire sleeping pill and then titrated it down to half, then a quarter

and finally none ov

er the 4 week period using a simple pill cutter. After that he took just the Withania for approx 2 months. After that he felt confident about trying to sleep without any help. Combining the Withania with the sleeping pills was useful to this patient because he could fall asleep but could not stay asleep with the sleeping pills alone. The patient was not on any other medication and not taking any other herbs. The patient had previously tried Valerian, Verbena, Hops, Chamomile, ...etc but they did not do much for him. The patient had even tried Kava Kava (obtained by the patient from the US) but did not like the heavy drugy feeling that it gave him. In contrast, Withania felt much lighter but was still effective. In my experience, it was interesting that Withania did not appear to lose its efficacy for treating insomnia

even when used long term

.. Have other practitioners experienced the same? Best wishes and hope this was helpful,Bindu. To: ukherbal-list Sent: Wednesday, 23 May 2012, 11:57Subject: InsomniaPLEASE can someone help me. I find it mind bogglingly hard to treat patients that have the kind of insomnia that they go off to sleep really well then wake at 3am and that's it for the night. They are nearly crying with

tiredness and nothing I do is helping. I've tried Escholtzia, Lactuca, Piscidia and we are about to do Valeriana/Passiflora and a couple of others but I suspect I know what the results will be.....no good!Thanks you allHelen Ellis

[Guest guest]

There was some research I read about, but now can't recall where, that

suggested that the idea that sleeping 8 hours straight was only fairly

recently perceived as " normal " and that up to ~18th century people

talked of early sleep and late sleep, expecting there to be a period of

wakefulness part way through. Apparently literature of the time was full

of suggestions of what to do in the period between sleeps.

The suggestion from the research was to reassure patients that waking at

3-4am was in fact perfectly normal, that they should get up and do

whatever - read a book, prepare a meal ... then return to bed and sleep

when they start to feel tired again. The rationale being that if people

stop thinking it is abnormal to wake in the early hours they will stop

being anxious about it and get into a different routine that does enable

enough sleep albeit in two doses.

Not sure about the practicalities of this when folk have work to get up

for/ older folk having no heating on at night etc.

[Guest guest]

I agree with the Withania comments below, I have given it to patients in tincture form, and it promotes a deeper sleep and a longer sleep, plus it has a wider action than just sleep alone, balancing the entire system and giving strength when I feel the adrenals need help and the hormones need balancing, Warm wishesShobanaNaturopath, Herbalist, Iridologist, Allergy Therapistshobana@...Tel: 07817 415518www.naturepath.co.uk Hi Helen, I've had good results with my patients using Withania somnifera powder obtained from Pukka. One and a half heaped teaspoons of powder thoroughly mixed in a small amount of water and taken about an hour or two before bedtime. I use this dosage for 'fiery' young men. After about a week or so, I reduce the dose to one heaped teaspoon per night. For ladies and the elderly I tend to stick to one heaped teaspoon per night or even less than that if they don't need so much. The powder can also be mixed in warm milk if the patient is able to drink milk. I combine this with asking the patient not to have any caffeine, alcohol, sugary food or cold drinks before bedtime. The Withania did not magically give the patient a full 8 hours of sleep, but it did increase the number of hours the patient slept and it was a deeper sleep. The patient may then feel less stressed about the insomnia itself and have a chance to move into a positive cycle. Worthwhile finding out of the patient has anything worrying them and if they can do anything to alleviate that. With some of my patients there were significant life changes stressing them out but they were unaware of the connection. I needed to educate them about the connection and this helped them take measures that eased their situations. But they were only able to focus on these changes once they were feeling more positive about having some control over their insomnia which had become a secondary source of stress. One of my patients had such a severe problem with insomnia that he needed to combine one heaped teaspoon of Withania with sleeping pills for approx 4 weeks before regaining his normal sleeping pattern. He began with an entire sleeping pill and then titrated it down to half, then a quarter and finally none over the 4 week period using a simple pill cutter. After that he took just the Withania for approx 2 months. After that he felt confident about trying to sleep without any help. Combining the Withania with the sleeping pills was useful to this patient because he could fall asleep but could not stay asleep with the sleeping pills alone. The patient was not on any other medication and not taking any other herbs. The patient had previously tried Valerian, Verbena, Hops, Chamomile, ...etc but they did not do much for him. The patient had even tried Kava Kava (obtained by the patient from the US) but did not like the heavy drugy feeling that it gave him. In contrast, Withania felt much lighter but was still effective. In my experience, it was interesting that Withania did not appear to lose its efficacy for treating insomnia even when used long term. Have other practitioners experienced the same? Best wishes and hope this was helpful, Bindu. To: ukherbal-list Sent: Wednesday, 23 May 2012, 11:57Subject: Insomnia PLEASE can someone help me. I find it mind bogglingly hard to treat patients that have the kind of insomnia that they go off to sleep really well then wake at 3am and that's it for the night. They are nearly crying with tiredness and nothing I do is helping. I've tried Escholtzia, Lactuca, Piscidia and we are about to do Valeriana/Passiflora and a couple of others but I suspect I know what the results will be.....no good!Thanks you allHelen Ellis

[Guest guest]

Hello Helen, If it's a difficult long standing case then be forensic. Often this pattern in TCM is identified as liver disturbance, however in difficult cases I've had to look beyond the initial presentation and go deeper. Therefore the replies on adrenals etc. Really echo this. If it's long standing I would concentrate on treating the underlying depleted state. However I have used Passiflora to great effect. I'd take time to really identify and prioritise what the issues are for this patient, believe me it works, it may seem strange focusing on another area but it's worked in difficult cases for me.On a symptomatic level apart from Passiflora in quite high doses at least 80mls in 400mls. Using sedating herbs on the adrenals is heavy duty and I would echo all the current responses on this.LorraineLorraine Hodgkinson MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 23 May 2012, at 11:57, "Helen Ellis" wrote:

PLEASE can someone help me. I find it mind bogglingly hard to treat patients that have the kind of insomnia that they go off to sleep really well then wake at 3am and that's it for the night. They are nearly crying with tiredness and nothing I do is helping.

I've tried Escholtzia, Lactuca, Piscidia and we are about to do Valeriana/Passiflora and a couple of others but I suspect I know what the results will be.....no good!

Thanks you all

Helen Ellis

[Guest guest]

I have a patient with severe sleep latency ie. just can't get to sleep until 3-4am. Does this need a different approach to those who can get to sleep and then wake in the small hours? She is 64yrs old, and not stressed. I've got her to go to bed later and eat a small supper and used the usual hypnotic herbs with absolutely no effect. Helen To: "ukherbal-list " <ukherbal-list > Sent: Thursday, 24 May 2012, 10:32 Subject: Re: Insomnia

Hello Helen, If it's a difficult long standing case then be forensic. Often this pattern in TCM is identified as liver disturbance, however in difficult cases I've had to look beyond the initial presentation and go deeper. Therefore the replies on adrenals etc. Really echo this. If it's long standing I would concentrate on treating the underlying depleted state. However I have used Passiflora to great effect. I'd take time to really identify and prioritise what the issues are for this patient, believe me it works, it may seem strange focusing on another area but it's worked in difficult cases for me.On a symptomatic level apart from Passiflora in quite high doses at least 80mls in 400mls. Using sedating herbs on the adrenals is heavy duty and I would echo all the current responses on

this.LorraineLorraine Hodgkinson MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 23 May 2012, at 11:57, "Helen Ellis" wrote:

PLEASE can someone help me. I find it mind bogglingly hard to treat patients that have the kind of insomnia that they go off to sleep really well then wake at 3am and that's it for the night. They are nearly crying with tiredness and nothing I do is helping.

I've tried Escholtzia, Lactuca, Piscidia and we are about to do Valeriana/Passiflora and a couple of others but I suspect I know what the results will be.....no good!

Thanks you all

Helen Ellis

[Guest guest]

Hi HelenHave you tried dosing your patient between 12 and 4pm?Craig From: ukherbal-list [mailto:ukherbal-list ] On Behalf Of hm.duxbury@...Sent: 24 May 2012 12:03To: ukherbal-list Subject: Re: Insomnia I have a patient with severe sleep latency ie. just can't get to sleep until 3-4am. Does this need a different approach to those who can get to sleep and then wake in the small hours? She is 64yrs old, and not stressed. I've got her to go to bed later and eat a small supper and used the usual hypnotic herbs with absolutely no effect. Helen To: " ukherbal-list " <ukherbal-list > Sent: Thursday, 24 May 2012, 10:32Subject: Re: Insomnia Hello Helen, If it's a difficult long standing case then be forensic. Often this pattern in TCM is identified as liver disturbance, however in difficult cases I've had to look beyond the initial presentation and go deeper. Therefore the replies on adrenals etc. Really echo this. If it's long standing I would concentrate on treating the underlying depleted state. However I have used Passiflora to great effect. I'd take time to really identify and prioritise what the issues are for this patient, believe me it works, it may seem strange focusing on another area but it's worked in difficult cases for me. On a symptomatic level apart from Passiflora in quite high doses at least 80mls in 400mls. Using sedating herbs on the adrenals is heavy duty and I would echo all the current responses on this. LorraineLorraine Hodgkinson MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.com On 23 May 2012, at 11:57, " Helen Ellis " wrote: PLEASE can someone help me. I find it mind bogglingly hard to treat patients that have the kind of insomnia that they go off to sleep really well then wake at 3am and that's it for the night. They are nearly crying with tiredness and nothing I do is helping. I've tried Escholtzia, Lactuca, Piscidia and we are about to do Valeriana/Passiflora and a couple of others but I suspect I know what the results will be.....no good!Thanks you allHelen Ellis No virus found in this message.Checked by AVG - www.avg.comVersion: 2012.0.2176 / Virus Database: 2425/5018 - Release Date: 05/23/12

[Guest guest]

No I haven't. Thanks Craig Helen To: ukherbal-list Sent: Thursday, 24 May 2012, 11:57 Subject:

RE: Insomnia

Hi HelenHave you tried dosing your patient between 12 and 4pm?Craig From: ukherbal-list [mailto:ukherbal-list ] On Behalf Of hm.duxbury@...Sent: 24 May 2012 12:03To: ukherbal-list Subject: Re: Insomnia I have a patient with severe sleep latency ie. just can't get to sleep until 3-4am. Does this need a different approach to those who can get to sleep and then wake in the small hours? She is 64yrs old, and not stressed. I've got her to go to bed later and eat a small supper and used the usual hypnotic herbs

with absolutely no effect. Helen To: "ukherbal-list " <ukherbal-list > Sent: Thursday, 24 May 2012, 10:32Subject: Re: Insomnia Hello Helen, If it's a difficult long standing case then be forensic. Often this pattern in TCM is identified as liver disturbance, however in difficult cases I've had to look beyond the initial presentation and go deeper. Therefore the replies on adrenals etc. Really echo this. If it's long standing I would concentrate on treating the underlying depleted state. However I have used Passiflora to great

effect. I'd take time to really identify and prioritise what the issues are for this patient, believe me it works, it may seem strange focusing on another area but it's worked in difficult cases for me. On a symptomatic level apart from Passiflora in quite high doses at least 80mls in 400mls. Using sedating herbs on the adrenals is heavy duty and I would echo all the current responses on this. LorraineLorraine Hodgkinson MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.com PLEASE can someone help me. I find it mind bogglingly hard to treat patients that have the kind of insomnia that they go off to sleep really well then wake at 3am and that's it for the night. They are nearly crying with tiredness and nothing I do is helping. I've tried Escholtzia, Lactuca, Piscidia and we are about to do Valeriana/Passiflora and a couple of others but I suspect I know what the results will be.....no good!Thanks you allHelen Ellis No virus found in this message.Checked by AVG - www.avg.comVersion: 2012.0.2176 / Virus Database: 2425/5018 - Release Date: 05/23/12

[Guest guest]

This is clearly a different pattern and to be honest with difficult cases a full review is best. I spent one whole weekend reviewing a difficult long standing insomnia case. After many hours I came to the conclusion that I would treat the person constitutionally, which meant ignoring all the usual obvious signs and patterns. Previously this approach had only got short term effects. Once we used a simple constitutional formula it worked like a dream! Pardon the pun! In the longer term and had other benefits on other areas. It was TCM so I'm not going to go into the details.It's the principle I wanted to illustrate. That if treating the obvious doesn't work, don't give up, get the glasses off and plough through the detail and the answer will emerge!Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 24 May 2012, at 11:02, hm.duxbury@... wrote:

I have a patient with severe sleep latency ie. just can't get to sleep until 3-4am. Does this need a different approach to those who can get to sleep and then wake in the small hours? She is 64yrs old, and not stressed. I've got her to go to bed later and eat a small supper and used the usual hypnotic herbs with absolutely no effect. Helen To: "ukherbal-list " <ukherbal-list > Sent: Thursday, 24 May 2012, 10:32 Subject: Re: Insomnia

Hello Helen, If it's a difficult long standing case then be forensic. Often this pattern in TCM is identified as liver disturbance, however in difficult cases I've had to look beyond the initial presentation and go deeper. Therefore the replies on adrenals etc. Really echo this. If it's long standing I would concentrate on treating the underlying depleted state. However I have used Passiflora to great effect. I'd take time to really identify and prioritise what the issues are for this patient, believe me it works, it may seem strange focusing on another area but it's worked in difficult cases for me.On a symptomatic level apart from Passiflora in quite high doses at least 80mls in 400mls. Using sedating herbs on the adrenals is heavy duty and I would echo all the current responses on

this.LorraineLorraine Hodgkinson MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 23 May 2012, at 11:57, "Helen Ellis" wrote:

PLEASE can someone help me. I find it mind bogglingly hard to treat patients that have the kind of insomnia that they go off to sleep really well then wake at 3am and that's it for the night. They are nearly crying with tiredness and nothing I do is helping.

I've tried Escholtzia, Lactuca, Piscidia and we are about to do Valeriana/Passiflora and a couple of others but I suspect I know what the results will be.....no good!

Thanks you all

Helen Ellis

[Guest guest]

Hi Lorraine Some of us have basic TCM training, so could you elaborate a bit more please? ThanksHelen To:

"ukherbal-list " <ukherbal-list > Sent: Friday, 25 May 2012, 7:43 Subject: Re: Insomnia

This is clearly a different pattern and to be honest with difficult cases a full review is best. I spent one whole weekend reviewing a difficult long standing insomnia case. After many hours I came to the conclusion that I would treat the person constitutionally, which meant ignoring all the usual obvious signs and patterns. Previously this approach had only got short term effects. Once we used a simple constitutional formula it worked like a dream! Pardon the pun! In the longer term and had other benefits on other areas. It was TCM so I'm not going to go into the details.It's the principle I wanted to illustrate. That if treating the obvious doesn't work, don't give up, get the glasses off and plough through the detail and the answer will emerge!Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 24 May 2012, at 11:02, hm.duxbury@... wrote:

I have a patient with severe sleep latency ie. just can't get to sleep until 3-4am. Does this need a different approach to those who can get to sleep and then wake in the small hours? She is 64yrs old, and not stressed. I've got her to go to bed later and eat a small supper and used the usual hypnotic herbs with absolutely no effect. Helen To: "ukherbal-list " <ukherbal-list > Sent: Thursday, 24 May 2012, 10:32 Subject: Re: Insomnia

Hello Helen, If it's a difficult long standing case then be forensic. Often this pattern in TCM is identified as liver disturbance, however in difficult cases I've had to look beyond the initial presentation and go deeper. Therefore the replies on adrenals etc. Really echo this. If it's long standing I would concentrate on treating the underlying depleted state. However I have used Passiflora to great effect. I'd take time to really identify and prioritise what the issues are for this patient, believe me it works, it may seem strange focusing on another area but it's worked in difficult cases for me.On a symptomatic level apart from Passiflora in quite high doses at least 80mls in 400mls. Using sedating herbs on the adrenals is heavy duty and I would echo all the current responses on

this.LorraineLorraine Hodgkinson MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 23 May 2012, at 11:57, "Helen Ellis"

wrote:

PLEASE can someone help me. I find it mind bogglingly hard to treat patients that have the kind of insomnia that they go off to sleep really well then wake at 3am and that's it for the night. They are nearly crying with tiredness and nothing I do is helping.

I've tried Escholtzia, Lactuca, Piscidia and we are about to do Valeriana/Passiflora and a couple of others but I suspect I know what the results will be.....no good!

Thanks you all

Helen Ellis

[Guest guest]

Really interesting discussion. I'd be interested in your rationale for dosing between 12-4pm, Craig. I use hops an awful lot in insomnia, and always think of it as a herb that helps people to go to sleep AND stay asleep. I also use the homeopathic remedy Passiflora 200C, which just helps to get people back to sleep very gently when they wake in the night - and it doesn't taste as bad as hops! I recommend a carbohydrate-based meal in the evening for those having trouble getting to sleep. I also educate the px about bedtime routine - same time every night, write a 'to do' list before going upstairs, a warm bath with lavender essential oil and Epsom salts to relax the muscles (nightly for 7 nights to break the habit of not falling asleep), a cup of herbal tea. Also make sure they wash hands and face before bed, as smells from the day can quickly re-alert the brain to what you were doing before. Sara Sara Southgate BSc., ND, Dip Herb, MURHPNaturopath and Herbalist07773 392 449www.sarasouthgate.com " I haven't been ill at all - it's amazing - you're a genius Sara. " Alison Critchlow, Leicestershire, January 2011

[Guest guest]

Many thanks to you all for the suggestions.

Saw my patient yesterday and think that the liver connection is important for

her and the timing of her supper. When we spoke about it any alcohol threw her

sleep completely (liver) and if she ate late with her husband she got a shocking

night too.

So early supper and liver herbs

I have added Erythrea centaurea to her mix. We shall see.

Already on Vit B complex.

Thanks to you all again.

Regards

Helen Ellis

[Guest guest]

Sorry Helen, It's beyond basic! There were very clear presenting patterns of insomnia as described in the text books. On treating these short term effects were observed good relief for a few weeks. Suddenly the effect would stop and pattern of insomnia re-emerge. Applying above strategy again resulted in similar short term effects. This was unsatisfactory.During the course of the review I looked at all the signs the patient presented with, past and present. I reviewed all the TCM patterns that might apply whether insomnia related or not. It became clear that insomnia besides there was an underlying constitutional pattern emerging. Using this pattern and formula indicated I adapted it slightly to suit the case.This strategy gave longer lasting results and resulted in benefits in other health areas. I don't normally do this! However it worked well in thus case. So going a layer deeper can help greatly in difficult cases.Hope this gives an overview of the mechanism. I'm sure something similar could be applied from your point of view.Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 25 May 2012, at 13:18, hm.duxbury@... wrote:

Hi Lorraine Some of us have basic TCM training, so could you elaborate a bit more please? ThanksHelen To:

"ukherbal-list " <ukherbal-list > Sent: Friday, 25 May 2012, 7:43 Subject: Re: Insomnia

This is clearly a different pattern and to be honest with difficult cases a full review is best. I spent one whole weekend reviewing a difficult long standing insomnia case. After many hours I came to the conclusion that I would treat the person constitutionally, which meant ignoring all the usual obvious signs and patterns. Previously this approach had only got short term effects. Once we used a simple constitutional formula it worked like a dream! Pardon the pun! In the longer term and had other benefits on other areas. It was TCM so I'm not going to go into the details.It's the principle I wanted to illustrate. That if treating the obvious doesn't work, don't give up, get the glasses off and plough through the detail and the answer will emerge!Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 24 May 2012, at 11:02, hm.duxbury@... wrote:

I have a patient with severe sleep latency ie. just can't get to sleep until 3-4am. Does this need a different approach to those who can get to sleep and then wake in the small hours? She is 64yrs old, and not stressed. I've got her to go to bed later and eat a small supper and used the usual hypnotic herbs with absolutely no effect. Helen To: "ukherbal-list " <ukherbal-list > Sent: Thursday, 24 May 2012, 10:32 Subject: Re: Insomnia

Hello Helen, If it's a difficult long standing case then be forensic. Often this pattern in TCM is identified as liver disturbance, however in difficult cases I've had to look beyond the initial presentation and go deeper. Therefore the replies on adrenals etc. Really echo this. If it's long standing I would concentrate on treating the underlying depleted state. However I have used Passiflora to great effect. I'd take time to really identify and prioritise what the issues are for this patient, believe me it works, it may seem strange focusing on another area but it's worked in difficult cases for me.On a symptomatic level apart from Passiflora in quite high doses at least 80mls in 400mls. Using sedating herbs on the adrenals is heavy duty and I would echo all the current responses on

this.LorraineLorraine Hodgkinson MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 23 May 2012, at 11:57, "Helen Ellis"

wrote:

PLEASE can someone help me. I find it mind bogglingly hard to treat patients that have the kind of insomnia that they go off to sleep really well then wake at 3am and that's it for the night. They are nearly crying with tiredness and nothing I do is helping.

I've tried Escholtzia, Lactuca, Piscidia and we are about to do Valeriana/Passiflora and a couple of others but I suspect I know what the results will be.....no good!

Thanks you all

Helen Ellis

[Guest guest]

Well no, I wasn't assuming your approach was basic, just that basic principles can be applied... Helen To: "ukherbal-list " <ukherbal-list > Sent: Saturday, 26 May 2012, 5:49 Subject: Re: Insomnia

Sorry Helen, It's beyond basic! There were very clear presenting patterns of insomnia as described in the text books. On treating these short term effects were observed good relief for a few weeks. Suddenly the effect would stop and pattern of insomnia re-emerge. Applying above strategy again resulted in similar short term effects. This was unsatisfactory.During the course of the review I looked at all the signs the patient presented with, past and present. I reviewed all the TCM patterns that might apply whether insomnia related or not. It became clear that insomnia besides there was an underlying constitutional pattern emerging. Using this pattern and formula indicated I adapted it slightly to suit the case.This strategy gave longer lasting results and resulted in benefits in other health areas. I don't normally

do this! However it worked well in thus case. So going a layer deeper can help greatly in difficult cases.Hope this gives an overview of the mechanism. I'm sure something similar could be applied from your point of view.Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 25 May 2012, at 13:18, hm.duxbury@...

wrote:

Hi Lorraine Some of us have basic TCM training, so could you elaborate a bit more please? ThanksHelen To:

"ukherbal-list " <ukherbal-list > Sent: Friday, 25 May 2012, 7:43 Subject: Re: Insomnia

This is clearly a different pattern and to be honest with difficult cases a full review is best. I spent one whole weekend reviewing a difficult long standing insomnia case. After many hours I came to the conclusion that I would treat the person constitutionally, which meant ignoring all the usual obvious signs and patterns. Previously this approach had only got short term effects. Once we used a simple constitutional formula it worked like a dream! Pardon the pun! In the longer term and had other benefits on other areas. It was TCM so I'm not going to go into the details.It's the principle I wanted to illustrate. That if treating the obvious doesn't work, don't give up, get the glasses off and plough through the detail and the answer will emerge!Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 24 May 2012, at 11:02, hm.duxbury@... wrote:

I have a patient with severe sleep latency ie. just can't get to sleep until 3-4am. Does this need a different approach to those who can get to sleep and then wake in the small hours? She is 64yrs old, and not stressed. I've got her to go to bed later and eat a small supper and used the usual hypnotic herbs with absolutely no effect. Helen To: "ukherbal-list " <ukherbal-list > Sent: Thursday, 24 May 2012, 10:32 Subject: Re: Insomnia

Hello Helen, If it's a difficult long standing case then be forensic. Often this pattern in TCM is identified as liver disturbance, however in difficult cases I've had to look beyond the initial presentation and go deeper. Therefore the replies on adrenals etc. Really echo this. If it's long standing I would concentrate on treating the underlying depleted state. However I have used Passiflora to great effect. I'd take time to really identify and prioritise what the issues are for this patient, believe me it works, it may seem strange focusing on another area but it's worked in difficult cases for me.On a symptomatic level apart from Passiflora in quite high doses at least 80mls in 400mls. Using sedating herbs on the adrenals is heavy duty and I would echo all the current responses on

this.LorraineLorraine Hodgkinson MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 23 May 2012, at 11:57, "Helen Ellis"

wrote:

PLEASE can someone help me. I find it mind bogglingly hard to treat patients that have the kind of insomnia that they go off to sleep really well then wake at 3am and that's it for the night. They are nearly crying with tiredness and nothing I do is helping.

I've tried Escholtzia, Lactuca, Piscidia and we are about to do Valeriana/Passiflora and a couple of others but I suspect I know what the results will be.....no good!

Thanks you all

Helen Ellis

[Guest guest]

very interesting discussion. Insomnia has caused huge problems for me as a herbalist because it takes away what little confidence i had, because its hard to recieve patients when you are half asleep. i find that when i wake at 4am i cant get to sleep again till i eat. this often happens if i dont eat enough protein during the day, maybe due to being busy or under stress. if i do eat at 4 am. i believe this sets up a new sleep pattern and the same will happen the next night. so i believe its very important to keep regular eating and sleeping and waking times, also to consider daytime habits and mental and emotional states and diet. exercise but if many calories are burned, i could wake up hungry if not met during the

day.

[Guest guest]

Hi , is that 8ml a week?

From:

Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 2:31 PM

To: ukherbal-list

Subject: Re: Insomnia

Hi Helen,

I've had a fair bit of success with Nutmeg. Its sedating actions are delayed, leaving 3-4 hours to take effect, so it kicks in halfway through the night, that tricky time when many find it difficult to get back to sleep. I've used it successfully on insomniacs and depressives. Just have to be careful to emphasise maximum dosage 8ml.

Might be worth a try?

Best of luck

______________________________________________________________________________________

Willow Herbal ClinicWeb: www.willowherbal.co.ukTel: 01903 816426

To: ukherbal-list Sent: Wednesday, 23 May 2012, 11:57Subject: Insomnia

PLEASE can someone help me. I find it mind bogglingly hard to treat patients that have the kind of insomnia that they go off to sleep really well then wake at 3am and that's it for the night. They are nearly crying with tiredness and nothing I do is helping. I've tried Escholtzia, Lactuca, Piscidia and we are about to do Valeriana/Passiflora and a couple of others but I suspect I know what the results will be.....no good!Thanks you allHelen Ellis

[Guest guest]

Hi Helen

I'd echo all the advice re liver, Passiflora etc, but I'd like to add a bit of

advice from a 'behavioural' perspective also, as I used to run sleep clinics and

found this little strategy (gleaned from a behavioural psychologist) invaluable.

The pattern you describe is a good example of the type of sleep 'conditioning'

which is often seen in insomnia. Basically (and without going into too much

detail) the association between being in bed and being asleep is weakened,

whereas that between being abed and being awake is strengthened. To reverse

this, advise your patient that, once she gets to the point when she realises

sleep just isn't happening (at 3am or whenever) she should get up, make herself

a warm drink of her choice (not coffee!), take her sleep mix if she has one and

go to a nice comfy and warm place, to do something else. She might choose to

read, watch a bit of TV, listen to music, write in a journal, whatever she wants

really, until she starts to feel sleepy again and begins yawning. Then she goes

back to bed. She should do this every time until normal sleep is resumed. In

addition to breaking the 'bed = awake' association, she's also 'giving herself

permission' to be awake and so it doesn't feel so negative.

Bear in mind also that insomnia, once experienced, can recur at any time, but

once your patient has some tools to use: sleep mix, behavioural strategy,

whatever works for her, she can just re-instate them each time. Once she starts

to feel less stressed about it, things usually improve generally.

Good luck.

>

> Many thanks to you all for the suggestions.

> Saw my patient yesterday and think that the liver connection is important for

her and the timing of her supper. When we spoke about it any alcohol threw her

sleep completely (liver) and if she ate late with her husband she got a shocking

night too.

> So early supper and liver herbs

> I have added Erythrea centaurea to her mix. We shall see.

> Already on Vit B complex.

> Thanks to you all again.

> Regards

> Helen Ellis

>

[Guest guest]

No, that's the maximum single dose of a 1:10. Regards, ______________________________________________________________________________________Willow Herbal ClinicWeb: www.willowherbal.co.ukTel: 01903 816426 To: ukherbal-list Sent: Sunday, 27

May 2012, 19:35 Subject: Re: Insomnia

Hi , is that 8ml a week?

From:

Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 2:31 PM

To: ukherbal-list

Subject: Re: Insomnia

Hi Helen,

I've had a fair bit of success with Nutmeg. Its sedating actions are delayed, leaving 3-4 hours to take effect, so it kicks in halfway through the night, that tricky time when many find it difficult to get back to sleep. I've used it successfully on insomniacs and depressives. Just have to be careful to emphasise maximum dosage 8ml.

Might be worth a try?

Best of luck

______________________________________________________________________________________

Willow Herbal ClinicWeb: www.willowherbal.co.ukTel: 01903 816426

To: ukherbal-list Sent: Wednesday, 23 May 2012, 11:57Subject: Insomnia

PLEASE can someone help me. I find it mind bogglingly hard to treat patients that have the kind of insomnia that they go off to sleep really well then wake at 3am and that's it for the night. They are nearly crying with tiredness and nothing I do is helping. I've tried Escholtzia, Lactuca, Piscidia and we are about to do Valeriana/Passiflora and a couple of others but I suspect I know what the results will be.....no good!Thanks you allHelen Ellis

[Guest guest]

Thanks

From:

Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2012 8:45 PM

To: ukherbal-list

Subject: Re: Insomnia

No, that's the maximum single dose of a 1:10.

Regards,

______________________________________________________________________________________

Willow Herbal ClinicWeb: www.willowherbal.co.ukTel: 01903 816426

To: ukherbal-list Sent: Sunday, 27 May 2012, 19:35Subject: Re: Insomnia

Hi , is that 8ml a week?

From:

Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 2:31 PM

To: ukherbal-list

Subject: Re: Insomnia

Hi Helen,

I've had a fair bit of success with Nutmeg. Its sedating actions are delayed, leaving 3-4 hours to take effect, so it kicks in halfway through the night, that tricky time when many find it difficult to get back to sleep. I've used it successfully on insomniacs and depressives. Just have to be careful to emphasise maximum dosage 8ml.

Might be worth a try?

Best of luck

______________________________________________________________________________________

Willow Herbal ClinicWeb: www.willowherbal.co.ukTel: 01903 816426

To: ukherbal-list Sent: Wednesday, 23 May 2012, 11:57Subject: Insomnia

PLEASE can someone help me. I find it mind bogglingly hard to treat patients that have the kind of insomnia that they go off to sleep really well then wake at 3am and that's it for the night. They are nearly crying with tiredness and nothing I do is helping. I've tried Escholtzia, Lactuca, Piscidia and we are about to do Valeriana/Passiflora and a couple of others but I suspect I know what the results will be.....no good!Thanks you allHelen Ellis

[Guest guest]

Hello Helen, You mentioned that you had basic training in TCM however the approach I used was as full blown TCM and the details would not be relevant to a mainly western herbal list. I tried to give a summary of the approach I used that would hopefully be useful for your own case. The main point being that ultimately in this case despite avert TCM insomnia patterns being present in examining deeper issues and treating constitutionally was the key.I've got another similar challenging case so it remains to see if this deep review approach can work again.Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 26 May 2012, at 09:14, hm.duxbury@... wrote:

Well no, I wasn't assuming your approach was basic, just that basic principles can be applied... Helen To: "ukherbal-list " <ukherbal-list > Sent: Saturday, 26 May 2012, 5:49 Subject: Re: Insomnia

Sorry Helen, It's beyond basic! There were very clear presenting patterns of insomnia as described in the text books. On treating these short term effects were observed good relief for a few weeks. Suddenly the effect would stop and pattern of insomnia re-emerge. Applying above strategy again resulted in similar short term effects. This was unsatisfactory.During the course of the review I looked at all the signs the patient presented with, past and present. I reviewed all the TCM patterns that might apply whether insomnia related or not. It became clear that insomnia besides there was an underlying constitutional pattern emerging. Using this pattern and formula indicated I adapted it slightly to suit the case.This strategy gave longer lasting results and resulted in benefits in other health areas. I don't normally

do this! However it worked well in thus case. So going a layer deeper can help greatly in difficult cases.Hope this gives an overview of the mechanism. I'm sure something similar could be applied from your point of view.Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 25 May 2012, at 13:18, hm.duxbury@...

wrote:

Hi Lorraine Some of us have basic TCM training, so could you elaborate a bit more please? ThanksHelen To:

"ukherbal-list " <ukherbal-list > Sent: Friday, 25 May 2012, 7:43 Subject: Re: Insomnia

This is clearly a different pattern and to be honest with difficult cases a full review is best. I spent one whole weekend reviewing a difficult long standing insomnia case. After many hours I came to the conclusion that I would treat the person constitutionally, which meant ignoring all the usual obvious signs and patterns. Previously this approach had only got short term effects. Once we used a simple constitutional formula it worked like a dream! Pardon the pun! In the longer term and had other benefits on other areas. It was TCM so I'm not going to go into the details.It's the principle I wanted to illustrate. That if treating the obvious doesn't work, don't give up, get the glasses off and plough through the detail and the answer will emerge!Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 24 May 2012, at 11:02, hm.duxbury@... wrote:

I have a patient with severe sleep latency ie. just can't get to sleep until 3-4am. Does this need a different approach to those who can get to sleep and then wake in the small hours? She is 64yrs old, and not stressed. I've got her to go to bed later and eat a small supper and used the usual hypnotic herbs with absolutely no effect. Helen To: "ukherbal-list " <ukherbal-list > Sent: Thursday, 24 May 2012, 10:32 Subject: Re: Insomnia

Hello Helen, If it's a difficult long standing case then be forensic. Often this pattern in TCM is identified as liver disturbance, however in difficult cases I've had to look beyond the initial presentation and go deeper. Therefore the replies on adrenals etc. Really echo this. If it's long standing I would concentrate on treating the underlying depleted state. However I have used Passiflora to great effect. I'd take time to really identify and prioritise what the issues are for this patient, believe me it works, it may seem strange focusing on another area but it's worked in difficult cases for me.On a symptomatic level apart from Passiflora in quite high doses at least 80mls in 400mls. Using sedating herbs on the adrenals is heavy duty and I would echo all the current responses on

this.LorraineLorraine Hodgkinson MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 23 May 2012, at 11:57, "Helen Ellis"

wrote:

PLEASE can someone help me. I find it mind bogglingly hard to treat patients that have the kind of insomnia that they go off to sleep really well then wake at 3am and that's it for the night. They are nearly crying with tiredness and nothing I do is helping.

I've tried Escholtzia, Lactuca, Piscidia and we are about to do Valeriana/Passiflora and a couple of others but I suspect I know what the results will be.....no good!

Thanks you all

Helen Ellis

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[Guest guest]

Can it be used long term?

Marilena.

To: ukherbal-list From: andiemurph@...Date: Sun, 27 May 2012 20:45:02 +0100Subject: Re: Insomnia

No, that's the maximum single dose of a 1:10.

Regards,

______________________________________________________________________________________

Willow Herbal ClinicWeb: www.willowherbal.co.ukTel: 01903 816426

To: ukherbal-list Sent: Sunday, 27 May 2012, 19:35Subject: Re: Insomnia

Hi , is that 8ml a week?

From:

Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 2:31 PM

To: ukherbal-list

Subject: Re: Insomnia

Hi Helen,

I've had a fair bit of success with Nutmeg. Its sedating actions are delayed, leaving 3-4 hours to take effect, so it kicks in halfway through the night, that tricky time when many find it difficult to get back to sleep. I've used it successfully on insomniacs and depressives. Just have to be careful to emphasise maximum dosage 8ml.

Might be worth a try?

Best of luck

______________________________________________________________________________________

Willow Herbal ClinicWeb: www.willowherbal.co.ukTel: 01903 816426

To: ukherbal-list Sent: Wednesday, 23 May 2012, 11:57Subject: Insomnia

PLEASE can someone help me. I find it mind bogglingly hard to treat patients that have the kind of insomnia that they go off to sleep really well then wake at 3am and that's it for the night. They are nearly crying with tiredness and nothing I do is helping. I've tried Escholtzia, Lactuca, Piscidia and we are about to do Valeriana/Passiflora and a couple of others but I suspect I know what the results will be.....no good!Thanks you allHelen Ellis