Guest guest Posted November 18, 1999 Report Share Posted November 18, 1999 Yes, sleep disruption is a common symptom of PSC. I was prescribed Ambien (10mg) and 1/2 tablet (5mg) was enough to let me sleep quickly (and still get up in the morning). Tim ltx 4/4/98 --- " Gluckman, Malcolm @ Houston Galleria " wrote: > Hi all > > Am new to this. Had PSC diagnosed almost 5 yrs ago. Does > anyone else have > insomnia, and what have they done for it? I seem to be able to > only fall > asleep after 3 am and cant get up before 10 am. Anyone else? > > Malcolm __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 1999 Report Share Posted November 18, 1999 Yes, sleep disruption is a common symptom of PSC. I was prescribed Ambien (10mg) and 1/2 tablet (5mg) was enough to let me sleep quickly (and still get up in the morning). Tim ltx 4/4/98 --- " Gluckman, Malcolm @ Houston Galleria " wrote: > Hi all > > Am new to this. Had PSC diagnosed almost 5 yrs ago. Does > anyone else have > insomnia, and what have they done for it? I seem to be able to > only fall > asleep after 3 am and cant get up before 10 am. Anyone else? > > Malcolm __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 1999 Report Share Posted November 18, 1999 Yes, sleep disruption is a common symptom of PSC. I was prescribed Ambien (10mg) and 1/2 tablet (5mg) was enough to let me sleep quickly (and still get up in the morning). Tim ltx 4/4/98 --- " Gluckman, Malcolm @ Houston Galleria " wrote: > Hi all > > Am new to this. Had PSC diagnosed almost 5 yrs ago. Does > anyone else have > insomnia, and what have they done for it? I seem to be able to > only fall > asleep after 3 am and cant get up before 10 am. Anyone else? > > Malcolm __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 1999 Report Share Posted November 18, 1999 Thanks for the response, Aubrey.. I have tried Benadryl, Melatonin, and Ambien, and all seem to work somewhat..however, as you say, I feel like a zombie the next day, which makes me even more fatigued. And I agree, part of the insomnia is probably due to the anxiety, as well as the compounded worry of not being able to fall asleep.. Oh well, Thanks, Malcolm > Hi Malcolm, > > I had horrible insomnia in the last year before my tx. It drove me > crazy. Sometimes it was just that I couldn't switch off my thoughts > enough to allow myself to go to sleep. Sometimes it was due to the > drenching night sweats I was experiencing. Sometimes it was the itching > that we get due to deposition of bile salts in our skin. It was very > frustrating and worsened the fatigue that I was living with during that > time. > My Hepatologist gave me a prescription for Oxazepam (Serax) 10 mg. I > asked for this low dose, the usual dose used in Geriatric patients > because of my previous experiences with sedatives. I tried not to use > this medication every night as it can be habit forming. I found that > when I used it I had some residual problems the next morning; I felt > like I was in a bit of a fog. > A friend gave me some Melatonin to try. I asked my Hepatologist before > using it and she approved it. The few times I used it, it seemed to help > without the foggy feeling the next morning. > You should check with your physician and discuss the situation with that > person before trying any new drug or treatment. Apparently insomnia in > people with liver disease is quite common. > > Aubrey Goldstein, MD > Liver tx, May/98 > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -- Talk to your group with your own voice! > -- /VoiceChatPage?listName= & m=1 > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 1999 Report Share Posted November 18, 1999 Thanks for the response, Aubrey.. I have tried Benadryl, Melatonin, and Ambien, and all seem to work somewhat..however, as you say, I feel like a zombie the next day, which makes me even more fatigued. And I agree, part of the insomnia is probably due to the anxiety, as well as the compounded worry of not being able to fall asleep.. Oh well, Thanks, Malcolm > Hi Malcolm, > > I had horrible insomnia in the last year before my tx. It drove me > crazy. Sometimes it was just that I couldn't switch off my thoughts > enough to allow myself to go to sleep. Sometimes it was due to the > drenching night sweats I was experiencing. Sometimes it was the itching > that we get due to deposition of bile salts in our skin. It was very > frustrating and worsened the fatigue that I was living with during that > time. > My Hepatologist gave me a prescription for Oxazepam (Serax) 10 mg. I > asked for this low dose, the usual dose used in Geriatric patients > because of my previous experiences with sedatives. I tried not to use > this medication every night as it can be habit forming. I found that > when I used it I had some residual problems the next morning; I felt > like I was in a bit of a fog. > A friend gave me some Melatonin to try. I asked my Hepatologist before > using it and she approved it. The few times I used it, it seemed to help > without the foggy feeling the next morning. > You should check with your physician and discuss the situation with that > person before trying any new drug or treatment. Apparently insomnia in > people with liver disease is quite common. > > Aubrey Goldstein, MD > Liver tx, May/98 > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -- Talk to your group with your own voice! > -- /VoiceChatPage?listName= & m=1 > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 1999 Report Share Posted November 18, 1999 Thanks for the response, Aubrey.. I have tried Benadryl, Melatonin, and Ambien, and all seem to work somewhat..however, as you say, I feel like a zombie the next day, which makes me even more fatigued. And I agree, part of the insomnia is probably due to the anxiety, as well as the compounded worry of not being able to fall asleep.. Oh well, Thanks, Malcolm > Hi Malcolm, > > I had horrible insomnia in the last year before my tx. It drove me > crazy. Sometimes it was just that I couldn't switch off my thoughts > enough to allow myself to go to sleep. Sometimes it was due to the > drenching night sweats I was experiencing. Sometimes it was the itching > that we get due to deposition of bile salts in our skin. It was very > frustrating and worsened the fatigue that I was living with during that > time. > My Hepatologist gave me a prescription for Oxazepam (Serax) 10 mg. I > asked for this low dose, the usual dose used in Geriatric patients > because of my previous experiences with sedatives. I tried not to use > this medication every night as it can be habit forming. I found that > when I used it I had some residual problems the next morning; I felt > like I was in a bit of a fog. > A friend gave me some Melatonin to try. I asked my Hepatologist before > using it and she approved it. The few times I used it, it seemed to help > without the foggy feeling the next morning. > You should check with your physician and discuss the situation with that > person before trying any new drug or treatment. Apparently insomnia in > people with liver disease is quite common. > > Aubrey Goldstein, MD > Liver tx, May/98 > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -- Talk to your group with your own voice! > -- /VoiceChatPage?listName= & m=1 > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 1999 Report Share Posted November 18, 1999 Thanks Tim. Have tried Ambien as well...but I dont want to get dependent on it. Malcolm > Yes, sleep disruption is a common symptom of PSC. I was > prescribed Ambien (10mg) and 1/2 tablet (5mg) was enough to let > me sleep quickly (and still get up in the morning). > > Tim ltx 4/4/98 > > --- " Gluckman, Malcolm @ Houston Galleria " > wrote: > > Hi all > > > > Am new to this. Had PSC diagnosed almost 5 yrs ago. Does > > anyone else have > > insomnia, and what have they done for it? I seem to be able to > > only fall > > asleep after 3 am and cant get up before 10 am. Anyone else? > > > > Malcolm > > __________________________________________________ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 1999 Report Share Posted November 18, 1999 Thanks Tim. Have tried Ambien as well...but I dont want to get dependent on it. Malcolm > Yes, sleep disruption is a common symptom of PSC. I was > prescribed Ambien (10mg) and 1/2 tablet (5mg) was enough to let > me sleep quickly (and still get up in the morning). > > Tim ltx 4/4/98 > > --- " Gluckman, Malcolm @ Houston Galleria " > wrote: > > Hi all > > > > Am new to this. Had PSC diagnosed almost 5 yrs ago. Does > > anyone else have > > insomnia, and what have they done for it? I seem to be able to > > only fall > > asleep after 3 am and cant get up before 10 am. Anyone else? > > > > Malcolm > > __________________________________________________ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 Sleep is controlled and maintained by diurnal hormone biorhythms. That's why oldies have problems sleeping. Any good? PLEASE can someone help me. I find it mind bogglingly hard to treat patients that have the kind of insomnia that they go off to sleep really well then wake at 3am and that's it for the night. They are nearly crying with tiredness and nothing I do is helping. I've tried Escholtzia, Lactuca, Piscidia and we are about to do Valeriana/Passiflora and a couple of others but I suspect I know what the results will be.....no good! Thanks you all Helen Ellis -- Chenery MNIMH MCPP MSB QPDirector, Rutland Biodynamics Ltd., Organic Medicinal Herb Growers andDepartment of Health (MHRA) Licensed Medicines Manufacturer, Town Park Farm, , Rutland, LE15 8DG, UKEmail: pc@... Website: www.rutlandbio.comConfidentiality: This e-mail and its attachments are intended for the above named only and may be confidential. If they have come to you in error you must take no action based on them, nor must you copy or show them to anyone; please reply to this e-mail and highlight the error. Security Warning: Please note that this e-mail has been created in the knowledge that Internet e-mail is not a 100% secure communications medium. We advise that you understand and observe this lack of security when e-mailing us. Viruses: Although we have taken steps to ensure that this e-mail and attachments are free from any virus, we advise that in keeping with good computing practice the recipient should ensure they are actually virus free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 Hello Ellis,Early waking can be seen as a sort of deficiency or depression, so try adding Oats or St 's wort, along with Vervain to help physically relax. This can work with elders and not-so-elders as well. Maybe a nourishing relaxing adaptogen like Ashwaganda as well. Also consider any particular mental state that has coincided with the insomnia. Guy Sleep is controlled and maintained by diurnal hormone biorhythms. That's why oldies have problems sleeping. Any good? PLEASE can someone help me. I find it mind bogglingly hard to treat patients that have the kind of insomnia that they go off to sleep really well then wake at 3am and that's it for the night. They are nearly crying with tiredness and nothing I do is helping. I've tried Escholtzia, Lactuca, Piscidia and we are about to do Valeriana/Passiflora and a couple of others but I suspect I know what the results will be.....no good! Thanks you all Helen Ellis -- Chenery MNIMH MCPP MSB QPDirector, Rutland Biodynamics Ltd., Organic Medicinal Herb Growers andDepartment of Health (MHRA) Licensed Medicines Manufacturer, Town Park Farm, , Rutland, LE15 8DG, UKEmail: pc@... Website: www.rutlandbio.comConfidentiality: This e-mail and its attachments are intended for the above named only and may be confidential. If they have come to you in error you must take no action based on them, nor must you copy or show them to anyone; please reply to this e-mail and highlight the error. Security Warning: Please note that this e-mail has been created in the knowledge that Internet e-mail is not a 100% secure communications medium. We advise that you understand and observe this lack of security when e-mailing us. Viruses: Although we have taken steps to ensure that this e-mail and attachments are free from any virus, we advise that in keeping with good computing practice the recipient should ensure they are actually virus free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 Hi Helen,I've had a fair bit of success with Nutmeg. Its sedating actions are delayed, leaving 3-4 hours to take effect, so it kicks in halfway through the night, that tricky time when many find it difficult to get back to sleep. I've used it successfully on insomniacs and depressives. Just have to be careful to emphasise maximum dosage 8ml.Might be worth a try?Best of luck ______________________________________________________________________________________Willow Herbal ClinicWeb: www.willowherbal.co.ukTel: 01903 816426 To: ukherbal-list Sent: Wednesday, 23 May 2012, 11:57 Subject: Insomnia PLEASE can someone help me. I find it mind bogglingly hard to treat patients that have the kind of insomnia that they go off to sleep really well then wake at 3am and that's it for the night. They are nearly crying with tiredness and nothing I do is helping. I've tried Escholtzia, Lactuca, Piscidia and we are about to do Valeriana/Passiflora and a couple of others but I suspect I know what the results will be.....no good! Thanks you all Helen Ellis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 The whole sleep hygiene routine needs looking at. If someone keeps waking at 3am they must go to bed later which nearly always results in a better length of continous sleep. It's not always well received as these people are very tired at their usual retiring time, but they must break a long-standing habit and stay up later. No sleeping during the day either.When a better routine has been established then sometimes retiring to bed can be brought earlier.As people get older they expect to sleep the same amount of time they did in earlier years, but nearly all of us need less sleep as we age. (Don't know how old your pt is.)Sleep herbs help, but only if the routine changes as well. It seems there is surprisingly little research on the different types of sleep disturbance and the relevant hormones/neurotransmitters involved. Unless others know different. Helen To: ukherbal-list Sent: Wednesday, 23 May 2012, 12:49 Subject: Re: Insomnia Hello Ellis,Early waking can be seen as a sort of deficiency or depression, so try adding Oats or St 's wort, along with Vervain to help physically relax. This can work with elders and not-so-elders as well. Maybe a nourishing relaxing adaptogen like Ashwaganda as well. Also consider any particular mental state that has coincided with the insomnia. Guy Sleep is controlled and maintained by diurnal hormone biorhythms. That's why oldies have problems sleeping. Any good? PLEASE can someone help me. I find it mind bogglingly hard to treat patients that have the kind of insomnia that they go off to sleep really well then wake at 3am and that's it for the night. They are nearly crying with tiredness and nothing I do is helping. I've tried Escholtzia, Lactuca, Piscidia and we are about to do Valeriana/Passiflora and a couple of others but I suspect I know what the results will be.....no good! Thanks you all Helen Ellis -- Chenery MNIMH MCPP MSB QPDirector, Rutland Biodynamics Ltd., Organic Medicinal Herb Growers andDepartment of Health (MHRA) Licensed Medicines Manufacturer, Town Park Farm, , Rutland, LE15 8DG, UKEmail: pc@... Website: www.rutlandbio.comConfidentiality: This e-mail and its attachments are intended for the above named only and may be confidential. If they have come to you in error you must take no action based on them, nor must you copy or show them to anyone; please reply to this e-mail and highlight the error. Security Warning: Please note that this e-mail has been created in the knowledge that Internet e-mail is not a 100% secure communications medium. We advise that you understand and observe this lack of security when e-mailing us. Viruses: Although we have taken steps to ensure that this e-mail and attachments are free from any virus, we advise that in keeping with good computing practice the recipient should ensure they are actually virus free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 I sympathise. I have woken at that time for years until recently. I did all the things recommended by the other replies.Things that have helped: recognising that the liver is on duty at that time of night, significant liver herbs have helped - Berberis, Silybum, etc. Hormone clearance is an issue at that time - I usually add Tarax rad. It is also the time of peak calcium absorption - check Vit D levels. Often if they are wide awake as opposed to drowsy, there has been a cortisol spike, indicating the need for aggressive adrenal/adaptogenic support. I would also advocate a protein snack with raw fat, high calcium - some almonds or cheese works. Low thyroid (esp here, so far from the sea) is affected by low adrenals - is she getting any iodine in her diet?All of this helped me, but did not fix the problem. Inflammatory cytokines increase as the day progresses - I have had a number of patients who have not been able to sleep without anti-inflammatory herbs - including one teenager with an impeccable diet, low stress (how rare is that?!) and no other health issues. He only needed some anti-inflammatories and he was good to go. I use Tanacetum parthenium, curcuma, Filipendula, Salix etc as indicated. These pts will often say they can only get a good night's sleep with NSAIDS or aspirin, or benedryl etc. Some patients have a gene that will always mean they are more prone to inflammation than others.Nutmeg: I use this for emergencies: if a teaspoon of freshly ground nutmeg is used with a teaspoon of poppy seed you'll get 4 hours from each - they piggy back on ewach other. Hope this is helpful. J Fidler, MCPP, (RH) AHGHerbalist To: ukherbal-list Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 6:57 AM Subject: Insomnia PLEASE can someone help me. I find it mind bogglingly hard to treat patients that have the kind of insomnia that they go off to sleep really well then wake at 3am and that's it for the night. They are nearly crying with tiredness and nothing I do is helping. I've tried Escholtzia, Lactuca, Piscidia and we are about to do Valeriana/Passiflora and a couple of others but I suspect I know what the results will be.....no good! Thanks you all Helen Ellis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 " no problem falling asleep, but after 4 or 5 hours wakes up " One, or more of these things works for most people I see with this problem: 1. Balance blood sugar levels : avoid eating late, avoid drinking wine / beer / fruit juice in the evening, avoid carb. rich meals at night. Blood sugar highs at supper may be followed by blood sugar lows + adrenalin rush several hours later, and there is nothing like that to wake you up, buzzing, at 2 - 3 am. 2. Look after the liver. I have several patients who sleep happily through the night as long as they have their liver mix: Dandelion, artichoke, milk thistle, , + hops and lavender . . . or something along those lines. 3. Artemisia annua (Sweet Annie) . Really helps some people. I think of this herb if they have gut problems and sinusitis as well as insomnia. Can work like a charm for some people (suggesting there is a parasitic element to their insomnia / gut problems / sinusitis). 4. Exercise (like walking) between 11 am an 3 pm in the open air. The light helps regulate the circadian rhythm, and of course, exercise is helpful 5. Magnesium - Deficiency is extremely common. If appropriate (and watch for drug c/i's ), it can really help with relaxation at night. 100% cotton sheets, completely dark bedroom etc. Hope this helps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2012 Report Share Posted May 29, 2012 Hello Dean I couldn't agree more and after many nights raiding the fridge I now use exactly the same tactics to get a good night's sleep, early morning exercise if possible and plenty of protein. If I am late for a meal during the day it can throw everything out. As says - balance blood sugar levels. Meditation is also very helpful but very often the patients with insomnia just can't imagine fitting meditation into their already hectic lifestyles. Verity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2012 Report Share Posted May 29, 2012 There are no cautions (that I know of) regarding long term use. BHP doesn't list any cautions. However, Nutmeg has received a lot of negative press recently due to an increase in chronic consumption for hallucinogenic purposes. Cases of liver damage and stomach irritation have been reported, but we're talking serious over-consumption here.I usually advise taking it for 4 weeks to establish a better sleep routine and then tailing it off thereafter. I do have one patient who takes it for four weeks on and a week off and manages very nicely on that.Regards, ______________________________________________________________________________________Willow Herbal ClinicWeb: www.willowherbal.co.ukTel: 01903 816426 To: herbalist mail <ukherbal-list > Sent: Tuesday, 29 May 2012, 14:01 Subject: RE: Insomnia Can it be used long term? Marilena. To: ukherbal-list From: andiemurph@...Date: Sun, 27 May 2012 20:45:02 +0100Subject: Re: Insomnia No, that's the maximum single dose of a 1:10. Regards, ______________________________________________________________________________________ Willow Herbal ClinicWeb: www.willowherbal.co.ukTel: 01903 816426 To: ukherbal-list Sent: Sunday, 27 May 2012, 19:35Subject: Re: Insomnia Hi , is that 8ml a week? From: Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 2:31 PM To: ukherbal-list Subject: Re: Insomnia Hi Helen, I've had a fair bit of success with Nutmeg. Its sedating actions are delayed, leaving 3-4 hours to take effect, so it kicks in halfway through the night, that tricky time when many find it difficult to get back to sleep. I've used it successfully on insomniacs and depressives. Just have to be careful to emphasise maximum dosage 8ml. Might be worth a try? Best of luck ______________________________________________________________________________________ Willow Herbal ClinicWeb: www.willowherbal.co.ukTel: 01903 816426 To: ukherbal-list Sent: Wednesday, 23 May 2012, 11:57Subject: Insomnia PLEASE can someone help me. I find it mind bogglingly hard to treat patients that have the kind of insomnia that they go off to sleep really well then wake at 3am and that's it for the night. They are nearly crying with tiredness and nothing I do is helping. I've tried Escholtzia, Lactuca, Piscidia and we are about to do Valeriana/Passiflora and a couple of others but I suspect I know what the results will be.....no good!Thanks you allHelen Ellis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2012 Report Share Posted May 29, 2012 Some people find when trying to meditate, they fall asleep. I do sometimes. I hypothesise it is the mind trying to avoid being sidelined ;-) So if your patients don't have time to meditate, and they are lying awake, if they fit this profile, it's a win, win situation - either they gain the relaxation afforded by successfully meditating, or they fall asleep. Also listening to self hypnosis tapes. Same principle. > Hello Dean > > I couldn't agree more and after many nights raiding the fridge I now > use > exactly the same tactics to get a good night's sleep, early morning > exercise if possible and plenty of protein. If I am late for a meal > during the day it can throw everything out. As says - balance > blood sugar levels. Meditation is also very helpful but very often > the > patients with insomnia just can't imagine fitting meditation into > their > already hectic lifestyles. > Verity > > > ------------------------------------ > > List Owner: Graham White, MNIMH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2012 Report Share Posted May 29, 2012 Fully agree. My wife is a hypnotherapist and she has for years nowrecorded certain scripts to help people fall asleep and stay asleep. You listen to the tape while in bed, and the expectation is that you will fall asleep by the end of the tape. Busy or not, everybody can do this. The cost is minimal, may be 5 or 10 euros to buy the script. Some people find when trying to meditate, they fall asleep. I do sometimes. I hypothesise it is the mind trying to avoid being sidelined ;-) So if your patients don't have time to meditate, and they are lying awake, if they fit this profile, it's a win, win situation - either they gain the relaxation afforded by successfully meditating, or they fall asleep. Also listening to self hypnosis tapes. Same principle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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