Re: menopause help

[Guest guest]

Dear I find that verbena often makes hot flashes worse. Sometimes just sage by itself for short periods brings relief (5 ml twice a day or as tea).Hope it helps To: ukherbal-list Sent: Saturday, 18 August 2012, 10:26 Subject: menopause help

help would be appreciated with this case. I've been working with a lady who has been on HRT for many years and wanted to discontinue. Have very successfully gradually reduced HRT with herbal support with virtually no menopause symptoms. Six weeks ago she was only taking 1 mg twice weekly so after three weeks of that tiny dose she stopped. Since then for the last three weeks her symptoms have become much much worse. She is now flushing every hour. I've had lots of success in the past with mainly cooling herbs and supporting the adrenal glands rather than "hormonal" herbs so that tends now to be my first approach.

Her mix has varied slightly but has included Atropa, humulus, borago, salvia, verbena, chamomilla, trifolium, melissa, leonurus, - obviously not all at once,

I'm slightly surprised that the reduction from such a small dose would have such an impact - is this usual? Does anyone find that patients who have been on HRT are harder to regulate thereafter? Any prescription suggestions would be much appreciated.

R Dow B.Sc.(Hons)B.A.(Hons), M.Sc.

[Guest guest]

What HRT was she on? Helen To: "ukherbal-list " <ukherbal-list > Sent: Saturday, 18 August 2012, 11:17

Subject: Re: menopause help

Dear I find that verbena often makes hot flashes worse. Sometimes just sage by itself for short periods brings relief (5 ml twice a day or as tea).Hope it helps To: ukherbal-list Sent: Saturday, 18 August 2012, 10:26 Subject: menopause help

help would be appreciated with this case. I've been working with a lady who has been on HRT for many years and wanted to discontinue. Have very successfully gradually reduced HRT with herbal support with virtually no menopause symptoms. Six weeks ago she was only taking 1 mg twice weekly so after three weeks of that tiny dose she stopped. Since then for the last three weeks her symptoms have become much much worse. She is now flushing every hour. I've had lots of success in the past with mainly cooling herbs and supporting the adrenal glands rather than "hormonal" herbs so that tends now to be my first approach.

Her mix has varied slightly but has included Atropa, humulus, borago, salvia, verbena, chamomilla, trifolium, melissa, leonurus, - obviously not all at once,

I'm slightly surprised that the reduction from such a small dose would have such an impact - is this usual? Does anyone find that patients who have been on HRT are harder to regulate thereafter? Any prescription suggestions would be much appreciated.

R Dow B.Sc.(Hons)B.A.(Hons), M.Sc.

[Guest guest]

Yes I've found that when gradually reducing meds that it's relatively easy to start with but gets harder and harder with the last bits. Although to think about it you're going from 100% to zero quite a big step. The theory I've used is that the body is given enough time to adjust and adapt to the situation in the meantime.In this particular case I think I'd have overhauled the Rx and also given extra support e.g. I often provide a tea e.g. Salvia and Tilia 1:1 to be drunk 2-3 teapots worth daily. I would be trying to 'satisfy' the receptors in another way, as clearly here once the mainstay is gone they don't like it.Have you thought of weak oestrogens? Alchemilla vulgaris? Plus a bit of Vitex? Is a favourite of mine. As Leonurus.Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 18 Aug 2012, at 10:26, jeanrdow@... wrote:

help would be appreciated with this case. I've been working with a lady who has been on HRT for many years and wanted to discontinue. Have very successfully gradually reduced HRT with herbal support with virtually no menopause symptoms. Six weeks ago she was only taking 1 mg twice weekly so after three weeks of that tiny dose she stopped. Since then for the last three weeks her symptoms have become much much worse. She is now flushing every hour. I've had lots of success in the past with mainly cooling herbs and supporting the adrenal glands rather than "hormonal" herbs so that tends now to be my first approach.

Her mix has varied slightly but has included Atropa, humulus, borago, salvia, verbena, chamomilla, trifolium, melissa, leonurus, - obviously not all at once,

I'm slightly surprised that the reduction from such a small dose would have such an impact - is this usual? Does anyone find that patients who have been on HRT are harder to regulate thereafter? Any prescription suggestions would be much appreciated.

R Dow B.Sc.(Hons)B.A.(Hons), M.Sc.

[Guest guest]

Hi JeanBFR walnut? for that last step. Menopause is all about letting go and moving on. And the drug has provided a refuge in that space, so it could be about letting go finally to that stage of her life. Tilia tea sounds like a good idea too. Lovely stuff. Wish they sold it in the shops like they used to.Sallyhelp would be appreciated with this case. I've been working with a lady who has been on HRT for many years and wanted to discontinue. Have very successfully gradually reduced HRT with herbal support with virtually no menopause symptoms. Six weeks ago she was only taking 1 mg twice weekly so after three weeks of that tiny dose she stopped. Since then for the last three weeks her symptoms have become much much worse. She is now flushing every hour. I've had lots of success in the past with mainly cooling herbs and supporting the adrenal glands rather than "hormonal" herbs so that tends now to be my first approach. Her mix has varied slightly but has included Atropa, humulus, borago, salvia, verbena, chamomilla, trifolium, melissa, leonurus, - obviously not all at once, I'm slightly surprised that the reduction from such a small dose would have such an impact - is this usual? Does anyone find that patients who have been on HRT are harder to regulate thereafter? Any prescription suggestions would be much appreciated. R Dow B.Sc.(Hons)B.A.(Hons), M.Sc.

[Guest guest]

Oops, "letting go of, or moving on to...... " Hi JeanBFR walnut? for that last step. Menopause is all about letting go and moving on. And the drug has provided a refuge in that space, so it could be about letting go finally to that stage of her life. Tilia tea sounds like a good idea too. Lovely stuff. Wish they sold it in the shops like they used to.Sallyhelp would be appreciated with this case. I've been working with a lady who has been on HRT for many years and wanted to discontinue. Have very successfully gradually reduced HRT with herbal support with virtually no menopause symptoms. Six weeks ago she was only taking 1 mg twice weekly so after three weeks of that tiny dose she stopped. Since then for the last three weeks her symptoms have become much much worse. She is now flushing every hour. I've had lots of success in the past with mainly cooling herbs and supporting the adrenal glands rather than "hormonal" herbs so that tends now to be my first approach. Her mix has varied slightly but has included Atropa, humulus, borago, salvia, verbena, chamomilla, trifolium, melissa, leonurus, - obviously not all at once, I'm slightly surprised that the reduction from such a small dose would have such an impact - is this usual? Does anyone find that patients who have been on HRT are harder to regulate thereafter? Any prescription suggestions would be much appreciated. R Dow B.Sc.(Hons)B.A.(Hons), M.Sc.

[Guest guest]

Thank you sally, ive got some lovely fresh tilia tea and that bfr. Will try both of those ideas. Love jeanSent from Samsung Mobile

Sally Owen wrote:

Oops, "letting go of, or moving on to...... " Hi JeanBFR walnut? for that last step. Menopause is all about letting go and moving on. And the drug has provided a refuge in that space, so it could be about letting go finally to that stage of her life. Tilia tea sounds like a good idea too. Lovely stuff. Wish they sold it in the shops like they used to.Sallyhelp would be appreciated with this case. I've been working with a lady who has been on HRT for many years and wanted to discontinue. Have very successfully gradually reduced HRT with herbal support with virtually no menopause symptoms. Six weeks ago she was only taking 1 mg twice weekly so after three weeks of that tiny dose she stopped. Since then for the last three weeks her symptoms have become much much worse. She is now flushing every hour. I've had lots of success in the past with mainly cooling herbs and supporting the adrenal glands rather than "hormonal" herbs so that tends now to be my first approach. Her mix has varied slightly but has included Atropa, humulus, borago, salvia, verbena, chamomilla, trifolium, melissa, leonurus, - obviously not all at once, I'm slightly surprised that the reduction from such a small dose would have such an impact - is this usual? Does anyone find that patients who have been on HRT are harder to regulate thereafter? Any prescription suggestions would be much appreciated. R Dow B.Sc.(Hons)B.A.(Hons), M.Sc.

[Guest guest]

How is her thyroid?Sent from my iPad

Oops, "letting go of, or moving on to...... " Hi JeanBFR walnut? for that last step. Menopause is all about letting go and moving on. And the drug has provided a refuge in that space, so it could be about letting go finally to that stage of her life. Tilia tea sounds like a good idea too. Lovely stuff. Wish they sold it in the shops like they used to.Sallyhelp would be appreciated with this case. I've been working with a lady who has been on HRT for many years and wanted to discontinue. Have very successfully gradually reduced HRT with herbal support with virtually no menopause symptoms. Six weeks ago she was only taking 1 mg twice weekly so after three weeks of that tiny dose she stopped. Since then for the last three weeks her symptoms have become much much worse. She is now flushing every hour. I've had lots of success in the past with mainly cooling herbs and supporting the adrenal glands rather than "hormonal" herbs so that tends now to be my first approach. Her mix has varied slightly but has included Atropa, humulus, borago, salvia, verbena, chamomilla, trifolium, melissa, leonurus, - obviously not all at once, I'm slightly surprised that the reduction from such a small dose would have such an impact - is this usual? Does anyone find that patients who have been on HRT are harder to regulate thereafter? Any prescription suggestions would be much appreciated. R Dow B.Sc.(Hons)B.A.(Hons), M.Sc.

=

[Guest guest]

Isn't Alchemilla more progesterogenic? I tend to use it for conditions with excess rather than deficient oestrogen. Also, since Vitex increases LH, it can worsen hot flushes in some people. I find that it's better for perimenopausal symptoms such as heavy bleeding, mastalgia and exaccerbation of PMS rather than hot flushes. I also wonder about whether Tilia would be a good idea since it's a diaphoretic?I would use oestrogenic herbs such as Cimicifuga, Dioscorea and Salvia for hot flushes, together with general cooling herbs, liver support (very important following use of HRT, and other herbs depending on the individual.

Yes I've found that when gradually reducing meds that it's relatively easy to start with but gets harder and harder with the last bits. Although to think about it you're going from 100% to zero quite a big step. The theory I've used is that the body is given enough time to adjust and adapt to the situation in the meantime.In this particular case I think I'd have overhauled the Rx and also given extra support e.g. I often provide a tea e.g. Salvia and Tilia 1:1 to be drunk 2-3 teapots worth daily. I would be trying to 'satisfy' the receptors in another way, as clearly here once the mainstay is gone they don't like it.Have you thought of weak oestrogens? Alchemilla vulgaris? Plus a bit of Vitex? Is a favourite of mine. As Leonurus.Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 18 Aug 2012, at 10:26, jeanrdow@... wrote:

help would be appreciated with this case. I've been working with a lady who has been on HRT for many years and wanted to discontinue. Have very successfully gradually reduced HRT with herbal support with virtually no menopause symptoms. Six weeks ago she was only taking 1 mg twice weekly so after three weeks of that tiny dose she stopped. Since then for the last three weeks her symptoms have become much much worse. She is now flushing every hour. I've had lots of success in the past with mainly cooling herbs and supporting the adrenal glands rather than "hormonal" herbs so that tends now to be my first approach.

Her mix has varied slightly but has included Atropa, humulus, borago, salvia, verbena, chamomilla, trifolium, melissa, leonurus, - obviously not all at once,

I'm slightly surprised that the reduction from such a small dose would have such an impact - is this usual? Does anyone find that patients who have been on HRT are harder to regulate thereafter? Any prescription suggestions would be much appreciated.

R Dow B.Sc.(Hons)B.A.(Hons), M.Sc.

[Guest guest]

Ive not had any reason to suspect thyroid issues. she is otherwise fit and healthy. She originally came to me because of rage that she was feeling that she felt was linked to hrt and hormonal swings. This has resolved completely and we have very very slowly reduced hrt. Taking three to four weeks between reductions, so its taken some months. JeanSent from Samsung Mobile

" J. Fidler" wrote:

How is her thyroid?Sent from my iPad

Oops, "letting go of, or moving on to...... " Hi JeanBFR walnut? for that last step. Menopause is all about letting go and moving on. And the drug has provided a refuge in that space, so it could be about letting go finally to that stage of her life. Tilia tea sounds like a good idea too. Lovely stuff. Wish they sold it in the shops like they used to.Sallyhelp would be appreciated with this case. I've been working with a lady who has been on HRT for many years and wanted to discontinue. Have very successfully gradually reduced HRT with herbal support with virtually no menopause symptoms. Six weeks ago she was only taking 1 mg twice weekly so after three weeks of that tiny dose she stopped. Since then for the last three weeks her symptoms have become much much worse. She is now flushing every hour. I've had lots of success in the past with mainly cooling herbs and supporting the adrenal glands rather than "hormonal" herbs so that tends now to be my first approach. Her mix has varied slightly but has included Atropa, humulus, borago, salvia, verbena, chamomilla, trifolium, melissa, leonurus, - obviously not all at once, I'm slightly surprised that the reduction from such a small dose would have such an impact - is this usual? Does anyone find that patients who have been on HRT are harder to regulate thereafter? Any prescription suggestions would be much appreciated. J

ean R Dow B.Sc.(Hons)B.A.(Hons), M.Sc.

=

[Guest guest]

Hi anna,Thank you very much for your input. I've used verbena with lots of patients with great results, sometime that one herb being the one that makes all the difference. Isn't that interesting. I wonder if there is a specific constitutional element to this success. Makes me want to review all my menopause histories. I am however going to try without as you suggest and review. Thank you everyone. So much input. This is where I find these resources invaluable.JeanSent from my iPad

Dear I find that verbena often makes hot flashes worse. Sometimes just sage by itself for short periods brings relief (5 ml twice a day or as tea).Hope it helps To: ukherbal-list Sent: Saturday, 18 August 2012, 10:26 Subject: menopause help

help would be appreciated with this case. I've been working with a lady who has been on HRT for many years and wanted to discontinue. Have very successfully gradually reduced HRT with herbal support with virtually no menopause symptoms. Six weeks ago she was only taking 1 mg twice weekly so after three weeks of that tiny dose she stopped. Since then for the last three weeks her symptoms have become much much worse. She is now flushing every hour. I've had lots of success in the past with mainly cooling herbs and supporting the adrenal glands rather than "hormonal" herbs so that tends now to be my first approach.

Her mix has varied slightly but has included Atropa, humulus, borago, salvia, verbena, chamomilla, trifolium, melissa, leonurus, - obviously not all at once,

I'm slightly surprised that the reduction from such a small dose would have such an impact - is this usual? Does anyone find that patients who have been on HRT are harder to regulate thereafter? Any prescription suggestions would be much appreciated.

R Dow B.Sc.(Hons)B.A.(Hons), M.Sc.

[Guest guest]

Hello Aine,Following work of Dr Lee used such a combination for years. The idea is that small amounts of weak oestrogens and progesterone potentise each other leading to a greater effect overall. A bit like the way herbs can act synergistically, making the most of any remaining natural hormone the patient has. If you're not comfortable with this approach then I suggest you steer well clear. Again combination of Tilia and Salvia tea very stabilising. Some other Herbalists use Sambucus as well though I'm happy with Tilia. The reasons for these approaches are well known.Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 18 Aug 2012, at 13:22, Ãine Marie Reilly wrote:

Isn't Alchemilla more progesterogenic? I tend to use it for conditions with excess rather than deficient oestrogen. Also, since Vitex increases LH, it can worsen hot flushes in some people. I find that it's better for perimenopausal symptoms such as heavy bleeding, mastalgia and exaccerbation of PMS rather than hot flushes. I also wonder about whether Tilia would be a good idea since it's a diaphoretic?I would use oestrogenic herbs such as Cimicifuga, Dioscorea and Salvia for hot flushes, together with general cooling herbs, liver support (very important following use of HRT, and other herbs depending on the individual.

Yes I've found that when gradually reducing meds that it's relatively easy to start with but gets harder and harder with the last bits. Although to think about it you're going from 100% to zero quite a big step. The theory I've used is that the body is given enough time to adjust and adapt to the situation in the meantime.In this particular case I think I'd have overhauled the Rx and also given extra support e.g. I often provide a tea e.g. Salvia and Tilia 1:1 to be drunk 2-3 teapots worth daily. I would be trying to 'satisfy' the receptors in another way, as clearly here once the mainstay is gone they don't like it.Have you thought of weak oestrogens? Alchemilla vulgaris? Plus a bit of Vitex? Is a favourite of mine. As Leonurus.Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 18 Aug 2012, at 10:26, jeanrdow@... wrote:

help would be appreciated with this case. I've been working with a lady who has been on HRT for many years and wanted to discontinue. Have very successfully gradually reduced HRT with herbal support with virtually no menopause symptoms. Six weeks ago she was only taking 1 mg twice weekly so after three weeks of that tiny dose she stopped. Since then for the last three weeks her symptoms have become much much worse. She is now flushing every hour. I've had lots of success in the past with mainly cooling herbs and supporting the adrenal glands rather than "hormonal" herbs so that tends now to be my first approach.

Her mix has varied slightly but has included Atropa, humulus, borago, salvia, verbena, chamomilla, trifolium, melissa, leonurus, - obviously not all at once,

I'm slightly surprised that the reduction from such a small dose would have such an impact - is this usual? Does anyone find that patients who have been on HRT are harder to regulate thereafter? Any prescription suggestions would be much appreciated.

R Dow B.Sc.(Hons)B.A.(Hons), M.Sc.

[Guest guest]

Lorraine,I was just giving my own experience of Vitex worsening hot flushes in some people, saying what approach I usually take, and asking questions. I think it is important that herbalists share their experiences and learn from eachother. It is not about me being uncomfortable with an approach or needing to "steer well clear". It's about people learning from each other and discussing different the different approaches. Unfortunately it seems that questioning anything on this forum seems to cause offence. Of course I am aware that oestrogenic and progesterogenic herbs can be used together, I was just questioning your description of Alchemilla as a "weak oestrogen" when I have always understood it to be progesterogenic. If there is some research or experience to suggest it is oestrogenic then I would be interested to hear it. Likewise, I have generally avoided using diaphoretics for obvious reasons, but again it was a question, as I am interested in discussing approaches that I have avoided, and hearing what other people's experiences are.

Hello Aine,Following work of Dr Lee used such a combination for years. The idea is that small amounts of weak oestrogens and progesterone potentise each other leading to a greater effect overall. A bit like the way herbs can act synergistically, making the most of any remaining natural hormone the patient has. If you're not comfortable with this approach then I suggest you steer well clear. Again combination of Tilia and Salvia tea very stabilising. Some other Herbalists use Sambucus as well though I'm happy with Tilia. The reasons for these approaches are well known.Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 18 Aug 2012, at 13:22, Áine Marie Reilly wrote:

Isn't Alchemilla more progesterogenic? I tend to use it for conditions with excess rather than deficient oestrogen. Also, since Vitex increases LH, it can worsen hot flushes in some people. I find that it's better for perimenopausal symptoms such as heavy bleeding, mastalgia and exaccerbation of PMS rather than hot flushes. I also wonder about whether Tilia would be a good idea since it's a diaphoretic?I would use oestrogenic herbs such as Cimicifuga, Dioscorea and Salvia for hot flushes, together with general cooling herbs, liver support (very important following use of HRT, and other herbs depending on the individual.

Yes I've found that when gradually reducing meds that it's relatively easy to start with but gets harder and harder with the last bits. Although to think about it you're going from 100% to zero quite a big step. The theory I've used is that the body is given enough time to adjust and adapt to the situation in the meantime.In this particular case I think I'd have overhauled the Rx and also given extra support e.g. I often provide a tea e.g. Salvia and Tilia 1:1 to be drunk 2-3 teapots worth daily. I would be trying to 'satisfy' the receptors in another way, as clearly here once the mainstay is gone they don't like it.Have you thought of weak oestrogens? Alchemilla vulgaris? Plus a bit of Vitex? Is a favourite of mine. As Leonurus.Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 18 Aug 2012, at 10:26, jeanrdow@... wrote:

help would be appreciated with this case. I've been working with a lady who has been on HRT for many years and wanted to discontinue. Have very successfully gradually reduced HRT with herbal support with virtually no menopause symptoms. Six weeks ago she was only taking 1 mg twice weekly so after three weeks of that tiny dose she stopped. Since then for the last three weeks her symptoms have become much much worse. She is now flushing every hour. I've had lots of success in the past with mainly cooling herbs and supporting the adrenal glands rather than "hormonal" herbs so that tends now to be my first approach.

Her mix has varied slightly but has included Atropa, humulus, borago, salvia, verbena, chamomilla, trifolium, melissa, leonurus, - obviously not all at once,

I'm slightly surprised that the reduction from such a small dose would have such an impact - is this usual? Does anyone find that patients who have been on HRT are harder to regulate thereafter? Any prescription suggestions would be much appreciated.

R Dow B.Sc.(Hons)B.A.(Hons), M.Sc.

[Guest guest]

Hi

A couple of other thoughts: oftentimes Verbena hastata works much

better in menopause than V. officinalis. Also, many years ago I

included Stellaria media in a formula for a px with intractable hot

flushes. To my surprise, it worked brilliantly!

Kind regards,

Kerry

 

Hi anna,

Thank you very much for your input. I've used verbena

with lots of patients with great results, sometime that

one herb being the one that makes all the difference.

Isn't that interesting. I wonder if there is a specific

constitutional element to this success. Makes me want to

review all my menopause histories. I am however going to

try without as you suggest and review. Thank you everyone.

So much input. This is where I find these resources

invaluable.

Jean

Sent from my iPad

On 18 Aug 2012, at 11:17, anna.newton@...

wrote:

 

Dear

I find that verbena often makes hot

flashes worse. Sometimes just sage by itself for

short periods brings relief (5 ml twice a day or

as tea).

Hope it helps

From:

"jeanrdow@..."

To:

ukherbal-list

Sent:

Saturday, 18 August 2012, 10:26

Subject:

menopause help

 

help

would be appreciated with this case. 

I've been working with a lady who has

been on HRT for many years and wanted

to discontinue.  Have very

successfully gradually reduced HRT

with herbal support with virtually no

menopause symptoms.  Six weeks ago she

was only taking 1 mg twice weekly so

after three weeks of that tiny dose

she stopped.  Since then for the last

three weeks her symptoms have become

much much worse.  She is now flushing

every hour.  I've had lots of success

in the past with mainly cooling herbs

and supporting the adrenal glands

rather than "hormonal" herbs so that

tends now to be my first approach.

 

Her mix has varied slightly but has

included Atropa, humulus, borago,

salvia, verbena, chamomilla,

trifolium, melissa, leonurus, -

obviously not all at once,

 

I'm slightly surprised that the

reduction from such a small dose would

have such an impact - is this usual? 

Does anyone find that patients who

have been on HRT are harder to

regulate thereafter?  Any prescription

suggestions would be much appreciated.

 

 

R Dow

B.Sc.(Hons)

B.A.(Hons), M.Sc.

-- Kerry Hackett, MNIMH, AHG, OHA

Medical Herbalist

www.kerryhackett.ca

[Guest guest]

I have given relevant references if you want to check it out. I am sharing my approach and experience on the matter to hopefully help and her client. This is a typical approach I would use in such a case as it works well for me. If you are uncomfortable about it then please avoid this approach.Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 20 Aug 2012, at 13:45, Ãine Marie Reilly wrote:

Lorraine,I was just giving my own experience of Vitex worsening hot flushes in some people, saying what approach I usually take, and asking questions. I think it is important that herbalists share their experiences and learn from eachother. It is not about me being uncomfortable with an approach or needing to "steer well clear". It's about people learning from each other and discussing different the different approaches. Unfortunately it seems that questioning anything on this forum seems to cause offence. Of course I am aware that oestrogenic and progesterogenic herbs can be used together, I was just questioning your description of Alchemilla as a "weak oestrogen" when I have always understood it to be progesterogenic. If there is some research or experience to suggest it is oestrogenic then I would be interested to hear it. Likewise, I have generally avoided using diaphoretics for obvious reasons, but again it was a question, as I am interested in discussing approaches that I have avoided, and hearing what other people's experiences are.

Hello Aine,Following work of Dr Lee used such a combination for years. The idea is that small amounts of weak oestrogens and progesterone potentise each other leading to a greater effect overall. A bit like the way herbs can act synergistically, making the most of any remaining natural hormone the patient has. If you're not comfortable with this approach then I suggest you steer well clear. Again combination of Tilia and Salvia tea very stabilising. Some other Herbalists use Sambucus as well though I'm happy with Tilia. The reasons for these approaches are well known.Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 18 Aug 2012, at 13:22, Ãine Marie Reilly wrote:

Isn't Alchemilla more progesterogenic? I tend to use it for conditions with excess rather than deficient oestrogen. Also, since Vitex increases LH, it can worsen hot flushes in some people. I find that it's better for perimenopausal symptoms such as heavy bleeding, mastalgia and exaccerbation of PMS rather than hot flushes. I also wonder about whether Tilia would be a good idea since it's a diaphoretic?I would use oestrogenic herbs such as Cimicifuga, Dioscorea and Salvia for hot flushes, together with general cooling herbs, liver support (very important following use of HRT, and other herbs depending on the individual.

Yes I've found that when gradually reducing meds that it's relatively easy to start with but gets harder and harder with the last bits. Although to think about it you're going from 100% to zero quite a big step. The theory I've used is that the body is given enough time to adjust and adapt to the situation in the meantime.In this particular case I think I'd have overhauled the Rx and also given extra support e.g. I often provide a tea e.g. Salvia and Tilia 1:1 to be drunk 2-3 teapots worth daily. I would be trying to 'satisfy' the receptors in another way, as clearly here once the mainstay is gone they don't like it.Have you thought of weak oestrogens? Alchemilla vulgaris? Plus a bit of Vitex? Is a favourite of mine. As Leonurus.Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 18 Aug 2012, at 10:26, jeanrdow@... wrote:

help would be appreciated with this case. I've been working with a lady who has been on HRT for many years and wanted to discontinue. Have very successfully gradually reduced HRT with herbal support with virtually no menopause symptoms. Six weeks ago she was only taking 1 mg twice weekly so after three weeks of that tiny dose she stopped. Since then for the last three weeks her symptoms have become much much worse. She is now flushing every hour. I've had lots of success in the past with mainly cooling herbs and supporting the adrenal glands rather than "hormonal" herbs so that tends now to be my first approach.

Her mix has varied slightly but has included Atropa, humulus, borago, salvia, verbena, chamomilla, trifolium, melissa, leonurus, - obviously not all at once,

I'm slightly surprised that the reduction from such a small dose would have such an impact - is this usual? Does anyone find that patients who have been on HRT are harder to regulate thereafter? Any prescription suggestions would be much appreciated.

R Dow B.Sc.(Hons)B.A.(Hons), M.Sc.

[Guest guest]

Did I say I was uncomfortable with the approach? I don't think being advised to avoid an approach by another herbalist is particularly helpful.

I have given relevant references if you want to check it out. I am sharing my approach and experience on the matter to hopefully help and her client. This is a typical approach I would use in such a case as it works well for me. If you are uncomfortable about it then please avoid this approach.Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 20 Aug 2012, at 13:45, Áine Marie Reilly wrote:

Lorraine,I was just giving my own experience of Vitex worsening hot flushes in some people, saying what approach I usually take, and asking questions. I think it is important that herbalists share their experiences and learn from eachother. It is not about me being uncomfortable with an approach or needing to "steer well clear". It's about people learning from each other and discussing different the different approaches. Unfortunately it seems that questioning anything on this forum seems to cause offence. Of course I am aware that oestrogenic and progesterogenic herbs can be used together, I was just questioning your description of Alchemilla as a "weak oestrogen" when I have always understood it to be progesterogenic. If there is some research or experience to suggest it is oestrogenic then I would be interested to hear it. Likewise, I have generally avoided using diaphoretics for obvious reasons, but again it was a question, as I am interested in discussing approaches that I have avoided, and hearing what other people's experiences are.

Hello Aine,Following work of Dr Lee used such a combination for years. The idea is that small amounts of weak oestrogens and progesterone potentise each other leading to a greater effect overall. A bit like the way herbs can act synergistically, making the most of any remaining natural hormone the patient has. If you're not comfortable with this approach then I suggest you steer well clear. Again combination of Tilia and Salvia tea very stabilising. Some other Herbalists use Sambucus as well though I'm happy with Tilia. The reasons for these approaches are well known.Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 18 Aug 2012, at 13:22, Áine Marie Reilly wrote:

Isn't Alchemilla more progesterogenic? I tend to use it for conditions with excess rather than deficient oestrogen. Also, since Vitex increases LH, it can worsen hot flushes in some people. I find that it's better for perimenopausal symptoms such as heavy bleeding, mastalgia and exaccerbation of PMS rather than hot flushes. I also wonder about whether Tilia would be a good idea since it's a diaphoretic?I would use oestrogenic herbs such as Cimicifuga, Dioscorea and Salvia for hot flushes, together with general cooling herbs, liver support (very important following use of HRT, and other herbs depending on the individual.

Yes I've found that when gradually reducing meds that it's relatively easy to start with but gets harder and harder with the last bits. Although to think about it you're going from 100% to zero quite a big step. The theory I've used is that the body is given enough time to adjust and adapt to the situation in the meantime.In this particular case I think I'd have overhauled the Rx and also given extra support e.g. I often provide a tea e.g. Salvia and Tilia 1:1 to be drunk 2-3 teapots worth daily. I would be trying to 'satisfy' the receptors in another way, as clearly here once the mainstay is gone they don't like it.Have you thought of weak oestrogens? Alchemilla vulgaris? Plus a bit of Vitex? Is a favourite of mine. As Leonurus.Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 18 Aug 2012, at 10:26, jeanrdow@... wrote:

help would be appreciated with this case. I've been working with a lady who has been on HRT for many years and wanted to discontinue. Have very successfully gradually reduced HRT with herbal support with virtually no menopause symptoms. Six weeks ago she was only taking 1 mg twice weekly so after three weeks of that tiny dose she stopped. Since then for the last three weeks her symptoms have become much much worse. She is now flushing every hour. I've had lots of success in the past with mainly cooling herbs and supporting the adrenal glands rather than "hormonal" herbs so that tends now to be my first approach.

Her mix has varied slightly but has included Atropa, humulus, borago, salvia, verbena, chamomilla, trifolium, melissa, leonurus, - obviously not all at once,

I'm slightly surprised that the reduction from such a small dose would have such an impact - is this usual? Does anyone find that patients who have been on HRT are harder to regulate thereafter? Any prescription suggestions would be much appreciated.

R Dow B.Sc.(Hons)B.A.(Hons), M.Sc.

[Guest guest]

I teach herbal medicine to students, and if I advised them to simply avoid an approach every time they questioned me about what I do, they would be left with no approaches left to use at all. The point is to discuss the different approaches that we use as herbalists, so that we can learn from eachother.

Did I say I was uncomfortable with the approach? I don't think being advised to avoid an approach by another herbalist is particularly helpful.

I have given relevant references if you want to check it out. I am sharing my approach and experience on the matter to hopefully help and her client. This is a typical approach I would use in such a case as it works well for me. If you are uncomfortable about it then please avoid this approach.Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 20 Aug 2012, at 13:45, Áine Marie Reilly wrote:

Lorraine,I was just giving my own experience of Vitex worsening hot flushes in some people, saying what approach I usually take, and asking questions. I think it is important that herbalists share their experiences and learn from eachother. It is not about me being uncomfortable with an approach or needing to "steer well clear". It's about people learning from each other and discussing different the different approaches. Unfortunately it seems that questioning anything on this forum seems to cause offence. Of course I am aware that oestrogenic and progesterogenic herbs can be used together, I was just questioning your description of Alchemilla as a "weak oestrogen" when I have always understood it to be progesterogenic. If there is some research or experience to suggest it is oestrogenic then I would be interested to hear it. Likewise, I have generally avoided using diaphoretics for obvious reasons, but again it was a question, as I am interested in discussing approaches that I have avoided, and hearing what other people's experiences are.

Hello Aine,Following work of Dr Lee used such a combination for years. The idea is that small amounts of weak oestrogens and progesterone potentise each other leading to a greater effect overall. A bit like the way herbs can act synergistically, making the most of any remaining natural hormone the patient has. If you're not comfortable with this approach then I suggest you steer well clear. Again combination of Tilia and Salvia tea very stabilising. Some other Herbalists use Sambucus as well though I'm happy with Tilia. The reasons for these approaches are well known.Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 18 Aug 2012, at 13:22, Áine Marie Reilly wrote:

Isn't Alchemilla more progesterogenic? I tend to use it for conditions with excess rather than deficient oestrogen. Also, since Vitex increases LH, it can worsen hot flushes in some people. I find that it's better for perimenopausal symptoms such as heavy bleeding, mastalgia and exaccerbation of PMS rather than hot flushes. I also wonder about whether Tilia would be a good idea since it's a diaphoretic?I would use oestrogenic herbs such as Cimicifuga, Dioscorea and Salvia for hot flushes, together with general cooling herbs, liver support (very important following use of HRT, and other herbs depending on the individual.

Yes I've found that when gradually reducing meds that it's relatively easy to start with but gets harder and harder with the last bits. Although to think about it you're going from 100% to zero quite a big step. The theory I've used is that the body is given enough time to adjust and adapt to the situation in the meantime.In this particular case I think I'd have overhauled the Rx and also given extra support e.g. I often provide a tea e.g. Salvia and Tilia 1:1 to be drunk 2-3 teapots worth daily. I would be trying to 'satisfy' the receptors in another way, as clearly here once the mainstay is gone they don't like it.Have you thought of weak oestrogens? Alchemilla vulgaris? Plus a bit of Vitex? Is a favourite of mine. As Leonurus.Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 18 Aug 2012, at 10:26, jeanrdow@... wrote:

help would be appreciated with this case. I've been working with a lady who has been on HRT for many years and wanted to discontinue. Have very successfully gradually reduced HRT with herbal support with virtually no menopause symptoms. Six weeks ago she was only taking 1 mg twice weekly so after three weeks of that tiny dose she stopped. Since then for the last three weeks her symptoms have become much much worse. She is now flushing every hour. I've had lots of success in the past with mainly cooling herbs and supporting the adrenal glands rather than "hormonal" herbs so that tends now to be my first approach.

Her mix has varied slightly but has included Atropa, humulus, borago, salvia, verbena, chamomilla, trifolium, melissa, leonurus, - obviously not all at once,

I'm slightly surprised that the reduction from such a small dose would have such an impact - is this usual? Does anyone find that patients who have been on HRT are harder to regulate thereafter? Any prescription suggestions would be much appreciated.

R Dow B.Sc.(Hons)B.A.(Hons), M.Sc.

[Guest guest]

It seems from a simple answer to another practitioner to try and assist them you have taken it as an issue because it does fit with your approach. If your not comfortable with what other Herbalists suggest then I'd question your reason for being on this list.The suggestions you made were to act centrally mine receptor based. There has been enough information given for you to check it out yourself.Again just because what someone suggests is outside your personal scope don't shoot the messenger. How about opening your mind?Annoyed!LorraineLorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 21 Aug 2012, at 18:38, Ãine Marie Reilly wrote:

Did I say I was uncomfortable with the approach? I don't think being advised to avoid an approach by another herbalist is particularly helpful.

I have given relevant references if you want to check it out. I am sharing my approach and experience on the matter to hopefully help and her client. This is a typical approach I would use in such a case as it works well for me. If you are uncomfortable about it then please avoid this approach.Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 20 Aug 2012, at 13:45, Ãine Marie Reilly wrote:

Lorraine,I was just giving my own experience of Vitex worsening hot flushes in some people, saying what approach I usually take, and asking questions. I think it is important that herbalists share their experiences and learn from eachother. It is not about me being uncomfortable with an approach or needing to "steer well clear". It's about people learning from each other and discussing different the different approaches. Unfortunately it seems that questioning anything on this forum seems to cause offence. Of course I am aware that oestrogenic and progesterogenic herbs can be used together, I was just questioning your description of Alchemilla as a "weak oestrogen" when I have always understood it to be progesterogenic. If there is some research or experience to suggest it is oestrogenic then I would be interested to hear it. Likewise, I have generally avoided using diaphoretics for obvious reasons, but again it was a question, as I am interested in discussing approaches that I have avoided, and hearing what other people's experiences are.

Hello Aine,Following work of Dr Lee used such a combination for years. The idea is that small amounts of weak oestrogens and progesterone potentise each other leading to a greater effect overall. A bit like the way herbs can act synergistically, making the most of any remaining natural hormone the patient has. If you're not comfortable with this approach then I suggest you steer well clear. Again combination of Tilia and Salvia tea very stabilising. Some other Herbalists use Sambucus as well though I'm happy with Tilia. The reasons for these approaches are well known.Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 18 Aug 2012, at 13:22, Ãine Marie Reilly wrote:

Isn't Alchemilla more progesterogenic? I tend to use it for conditions with excess rather than deficient oestrogen. Also, since Vitex increases LH, it can worsen hot flushes in some people. I find that it's better for perimenopausal symptoms such as heavy bleeding, mastalgia and exaccerbation of PMS rather than hot flushes. I also wonder about whether Tilia would be a good idea since it's a diaphoretic?I would use oestrogenic herbs such as Cimicifuga, Dioscorea and Salvia for hot flushes, together with general cooling herbs, liver support (very important following use of HRT, and other herbs depending on the individual.

Yes I've found that when gradually reducing meds that it's relatively easy to start with but gets harder and harder with the last bits. Although to think about it you're going from 100% to zero quite a big step. The theory I've used is that the body is given enough time to adjust and adapt to the situation in the meantime.In this particular case I think I'd have overhauled the Rx and also given extra support e.g. I often provide a tea e.g. Salvia and Tilia 1:1 to be drunk 2-3 teapots worth daily. I would be trying to 'satisfy' the receptors in another way, as clearly here once the mainstay is gone they don't like it.Have you thought of weak oestrogens? Alchemilla vulgaris? Plus a bit of Vitex? Is a favourite of mine. As Leonurus.Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 18 Aug 2012, at 10:26, jeanrdow@... wrote:

help would be appreciated with this case. I've been working with a lady who has been on HRT for many years and wanted to discontinue. Have very successfully gradually reduced HRT with herbal support with virtually no menopause symptoms. Six weeks ago she was only taking 1 mg twice weekly so after three weeks of that tiny dose she stopped. Since then for the last three weeks her symptoms have become much much worse. She is now flushing every hour. I've had lots of success in the past with mainly cooling herbs and supporting the adrenal glands rather than "hormonal" herbs so that tends now to be my first approach.

Her mix has varied slightly but has included Atropa, humulus, borago, salvia, verbena, chamomilla, trifolium, melissa, leonurus, - obviously not all at once,

I'm slightly surprised that the reduction from such a small dose would have such an impact - is this usual? Does anyone find that patients who have been on HRT are harder to regulate thereafter? Any prescription suggestions would be much appreciated.

R Dow B.Sc.(Hons)B.A.(Hons), M.Sc.

[Guest guest]

Yes I'm annoyed too.I have no problem with your approach, what I have taken as an issue is your reply to me. Right from the beginning I simply gave my own approach (also in order to try to assist the other practitioner) and asked questions about your approach, as I have had a different view. I was not trying to "shoot the messenger". I just wanted you to explain more about your initial post as I did not fully understand you rational, which you did explain - and thank you for that. What I took issue with was your comment "If you're not comfortable with this approach then I suggest you steer well clear. " and also with what i perceived to be a very condescending tone your reply. Is it not ok for others to question your approach? do you not think it is helpful for herbalists to learn from one another? I found your last post equally condescending and this time downright rude, in particular your comment "How about opening your mind?"You do not even know me, so I am offended by such a personal comment. I am also offended that you should : "question my reason for being on this list". My reason is to learn and to discuss things with other herbalists, not to be attacked in such a personal manner for asking questions (although right now I am questioning being on this list since there seems to be no room for healthy debate here without it getting personal).

It seems from a simple answer to another practitioner to try and assist them you have taken it as an issue because it does fit with your approach. If your not comfortable with what other Herbalists suggest then I'd question your reason for being on this list.The suggestions you made were to act centrally mine receptor based. There has been enough information given for you to check it out yourself.Again just because what someone suggests is outside your personal scope don't shoot the messenger. How about opening your mind?Annoyed!LorraineLorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 21 Aug 2012, at 18:38, Áine Marie Reilly wrote:

Did I say I was uncomfortable with the approach? I don't think being advised to avoid an approach by another herbalist is particularly helpful.

I have given relevant references if you want to check it out. I am sharing my approach and experience on the matter to hopefully help and her client. This is a typical approach I would use in such a case as it works well for me. If you are uncomfortable about it then please avoid this approach.Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 20 Aug 2012, at 13:45, Áine Marie Reilly wrote:

Lorraine,I was just giving my own experience of Vitex worsening hot flushes in some people, saying what approach I usually take, and asking questions. I think it is important that herbalists share their experiences and learn from eachother. It is not about me being uncomfortable with an approach or needing to "steer well clear". It's about people learning from each other and discussing different the different approaches. Unfortunately it seems that questioning anything on this forum seems to cause offence. Of course I am aware that oestrogenic and progesterogenic herbs can be used together, I was just questioning your description of Alchemilla as a "weak oestrogen" when I have always understood it to be progesterogenic. If there is some research or experience to suggest it is oestrogenic then I would be interested to hear it. Likewise, I have generally avoided using diaphoretics for obvious reasons, but again it was a question, as I am interested in discussing approaches that I have avoided, and hearing what other people's experiences are.

Hello Aine,Following work of Dr Lee used such a combination for years. The idea is that small amounts of weak oestrogens and progesterone potentise each other leading to a greater effect overall. A bit like the way herbs can act synergistically, making the most of any remaining natural hormone the patient has. If you're not comfortable with this approach then I suggest you steer well clear. Again combination of Tilia and Salvia tea very stabilising. Some other Herbalists use Sambucus as well though I'm happy with Tilia. The reasons for these approaches are well known.Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 18 Aug 2012, at 13:22, Áine Marie Reilly wrote:

Isn't Alchemilla more progesterogenic? I tend to use it for conditions with excess rather than deficient oestrogen. Also, since Vitex increases LH, it can worsen hot flushes in some people. I find that it's better for perimenopausal symptoms such as heavy bleeding, mastalgia and exaccerbation of PMS rather than hot flushes. I also wonder about whether Tilia would be a good idea since it's a diaphoretic?I would use oestrogenic herbs such as Cimicifuga, Dioscorea and Salvia for hot flushes, together with general cooling herbs, liver support (very important following use of HRT, and other herbs depending on the individual.

Yes I've found that when gradually reducing meds that it's relatively easy to start with but gets harder and harder with the last bits. Although to think about it you're going from 100% to zero quite a big step. The theory I've used is that the body is given enough time to adjust and adapt to the situation in the meantime.In this particular case I think I'd have overhauled the Rx and also given extra support e.g. I often provide a tea e.g. Salvia and Tilia 1:1 to be drunk 2-3 teapots worth daily. I would be trying to 'satisfy' the receptors in another way, as clearly here once the mainstay is gone they don't like it.Have you thought of weak oestrogens? Alchemilla vulgaris? Plus a bit of Vitex? Is a favourite of mine. As Leonurus.Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 18 Aug 2012, at 10:26, jeanrdow@... wrote:

help would be appreciated with this case. I've been working with a lady who has been on HRT for many years and wanted to discontinue. Have very successfully gradually reduced HRT with herbal support with virtually no menopause symptoms. Six weeks ago she was only taking 1 mg twice weekly so after three weeks of that tiny dose she stopped. Since then for the last three weeks her symptoms have become much much worse. She is now flushing every hour. I've had lots of success in the past with mainly cooling herbs and supporting the adrenal glands rather than "hormonal" herbs so that tends now to be my first approach.

Her mix has varied slightly but has included Atropa, humulus, borago, salvia, verbena, chamomilla, trifolium, melissa, leonurus, - obviously not all at once,

I'm slightly surprised that the reduction from such a small dose would have such an impact - is this usual? Does anyone find that patients who have been on HRT are harder to regulate thereafter? Any prescription suggestions would be much appreciated.

R Dow B.Sc.(Hons)B.A.(Hons), M.Sc.

[Guest guest]

It seems because I use a particular herb in a way you are unfamiliar with you don't want to question but challenge my judgment on the issue. I'm afraid it's you who are being condescending and have sparked off this whole unpleasant business. I like to innovate and discover what gets my patients well, I'm also happy to pass on this experience to other practitioners to help them in like manner. If this disturbs you to the point that you want to throw the whole thing back at me when I've provided adequate explanations rather than check things out first, then I'd rather you didn't enter the debate and steered clear as mentioned.LorraineLorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 22 Aug 2012, at 11:06, Ãine Marie Reilly wrote:

Yes I'm annoyed too.I have no problem with your approach, what I have taken as an issue is your reply to me. Right from the beginning I simply gave my own approach (also in order to try to assist the other practitioner) and asked questions about your approach, as I have had a different view. I was not trying to "shoot the messenger". I just wanted you to explain more about your initial post as I did not fully understand you rational, which you did explain - and thank you for that. What I took issue with was your comment "If you're not comfortable with this approach then I suggest you steer well clear. " and also with what i perceived to be a very condescending tone your reply. Is it not ok for others to question your approach? do you not think it is helpful for herbalists to learn from one another? I found your last post equally condescending and this time downright rude, in particular your comment "How about opening your mind?"You do not even know me, so I am offended by such a personal comment. I am also offended that you should : "question my reason for being on this list". My reason is to learn and to discuss things with other herbalists, not to be attacked in such a personal manner for asking questions (although right now I am questioning being on this list since there seems to be no room for healthy debate here without it getting personal).

It seems from a simple answer to another practitioner to try and assist them you have taken it as an issue because it does fit with your approach. If your not comfortable with what other Herbalists suggest then I'd question your reason for being on this list.The suggestions you made were to act centrally mine receptor based. There has been enough information given for you to check it out yourself.Again just because what someone suggests is outside your personal scope don't shoot the messenger. How about opening your mind?Annoyed!LorraineLorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 21 Aug 2012, at 18:38, Ãine Marie Reilly wrote:

Did I say I was uncomfortable with the approach? I don't think being advised to avoid an approach by another herbalist is particularly helpful.

I have given relevant references if you want to check it out. I am sharing my approach and experience on the matter to hopefully help and her client. This is a typical approach I would use in such a case as it works well for me. If you are uncomfortable about it then please avoid this approach.Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 20 Aug 2012, at 13:45, Ãine Marie Reilly wrote:

Lorraine,I was just giving my own experience of Vitex worsening hot flushes in some people, saying what approach I usually take, and asking questions. I think it is important that herbalists share their experiences and learn from eachother. It is not about me being uncomfortable with an approach or needing to "steer well clear". It's about people learning from each other and discussing different the different approaches. Unfortunately it seems that questioning anything on this forum seems to cause offence. Of course I am aware that oestrogenic and progesterogenic herbs can be used together, I was just questioning your description of Alchemilla as a "weak oestrogen" when I have always understood it to be progesterogenic. If there is some research or experience to suggest it is oestrogenic then I would be interested to hear it. Likewise, I have generally avoided using diaphoretics for obvious reasons, but again it was a question, as I am interested in discussing approaches that I have avoided, and hearing what other people's experiences are.

Hello Aine,Following work of Dr Lee used such a combination for years. The idea is that small amounts of weak oestrogens and progesterone potentise each other leading to a greater effect overall. A bit like the way herbs can act synergistically, making the most of any remaining natural hormone the patient has. If you're not comfortable with this approach then I suggest you steer well clear. Again combination of Tilia and Salvia tea very stabilising. Some other Herbalists use Sambucus as well though I'm happy with Tilia. The reasons for these approaches are well known.Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 18 Aug 2012, at 13:22, Ãine Marie Reilly wrote:

Isn't Alchemilla more progesterogenic? I tend to use it for conditions with excess rather than deficient oestrogen. Also, since Vitex increases LH, it can worsen hot flushes in some people. I find that it's better for perimenopausal symptoms such as heavy bleeding, mastalgia and exaccerbation of PMS rather than hot flushes. I also wonder about whether Tilia would be a good idea since it's a diaphoretic?I would use oestrogenic herbs such as Cimicifuga, Dioscorea and Salvia for hot flushes, together with general cooling herbs, liver support (very important following use of HRT, and other herbs depending on the individual.

Yes I've found that when gradually reducing meds that it's relatively easy to start with but gets harder and harder with the last bits. Although to think about it you're going from 100% to zero quite a big step. The theory I've used is that the body is given enough time to adjust and adapt to the situation in the meantime.In this particular case I think I'd have overhauled the Rx and also given extra support e.g. I often provide a tea e.g. Salvia and Tilia 1:1 to be drunk 2-3 teapots worth daily. I would be trying to 'satisfy' the receptors in another way, as clearly here once the mainstay is gone they don't like it.Have you thought of weak oestrogens? Alchemilla vulgaris? Plus a bit of Vitex? Is a favourite of mine. As Leonurus.Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 18 Aug 2012, at 10:26, jeanrdow@... wrote:

help would be appreciated with this case. I've been working with a lady who has been on HRT for many years and wanted to discontinue. Have very successfully gradually reduced HRT with herbal support with virtually no menopause symptoms. Six weeks ago she was only taking 1 mg twice weekly so after three weeks of that tiny dose she stopped. Since then for the last three weeks her symptoms have become much much worse. She is now flushing every hour. I've had lots of success in the past with mainly cooling herbs and supporting the adrenal glands rather than "hormonal" herbs so that tends now to be my first approach.

Her mix has varied slightly but has included Atropa, humulus, borago, salvia, verbena, chamomilla, trifolium, melissa, leonurus, - obviously not all at once,

I'm slightly surprised that the reduction from such a small dose would have such an impact - is this usual? Does anyone find that patients who have been on HRT are harder to regulate thereafter? Any prescription suggestions would be much appreciated.

R Dow B.Sc.(Hons)B.A.(Hons), M.Sc.

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I am sorry if you feel I was challenging your judgement, as that was not my intention. You gave details of your preferred approach, which is fair enough, and which no doubt was helpful to other practitioners. However, the initial query was not directed to you alone, but was a general one. Therefore, am I not allowed to also give my preferred approach, even if it differs to yours? Am I not also allowed to innovate and discover what gets my patients well, and pass on this experience to other practitioners?My reason for being on this forum is to learn from and to help other herbalists. It is a discussion forum, so healthy discussion should be allowed. It is not a lecture theatre where one or two herbalists get to put themselves out there as experts who are beyond being questioned. If you suggest using Vitex, but my experience is that Vitex can worsen hot flushes in some people, or if you use Alchemilla as an oestrogenic but I consider it to be progesterogenic, am I not allowed to say this? should I just have kept my mouth shut and not communicated what I think is an important piece of information which other herbalists might want to know? Are other herbalists not entitled to have all the different opinions and make their own clinical decisions based on this?I don't accept that I sparked this off. It takes two to have an argument. I only asked questions about your approach. I don't see the crime in that, but I am sorry if you found it difficult to have your approach questioned. However, at no time did I say I was "uncomfortable" with your approach or that it I was in anyway "disturbed" by it. You have totally misrepresented what I actually said, which is very unfair. Nor did I tell you which approaches to use or avoid, as you did to me, nor did I accuse you of being closed-minded or make any other similarly offensive comment, as you did to me, nor did I "question your reasons for being on the list" as you did to me. I do not appreciate being told to "avoid an approach", to "steer clear" or to stay out of a debate by a fellow herbalist.My initial response was in no way personal to you, it was a general enquiry about what herbalists thought of Alchemilla or the appropriateness of diaphoretics in the treatment of hot flushes. You have obviously taken offence at something which was not intended to cause offence. I am sorry if it did offend you, but I do think your responses to me have been unnecessarily harsh, personal, and rude, considering that all I did was ask questions about your choice of approach, and give details of the approach I take in such matters.I have as much right to give my opinions as you do, and If you are so disturbed when someone questions your approach, or offers a different opinion, that you have to resort to rudeness, and trying to prevent others from entering the debate, then perhaps it is in fact you who should consider your reasons for being on this list, and not just me. However, If others feel that there is no room for questioning or difference of approach on this list, then I will happily leave it, as I don't see the point of being on a discussion forum which does not allow the discussion of different approaches.

It seems because I use a particular herb in a way you are unfamiliar with you don't want to question but challenge my judgment on the issue. I'm afraid it's you who are being condescending and have sparked off this whole unpleasant business. I like to innovate and discover what gets my patients well, I'm also happy to pass on this experience to other practitioners to help them in like manner. If this disturbs you to the point that you want to throw the whole thing back at me when I've provided adequate explanations rather than check things out first, then I'd rather you didn't enter the debate and steered clear as mentioned.LorraineLorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 22 Aug 2012, at 11:06, Áine Marie Reilly wrote:

Yes I'm annoyed too.I have no problem with your approach, what I have taken as an issue is your reply to me. Right from the beginning I simply gave my own approach (also in order to try to assist the other practitioner) and asked questions about your approach, as I have had a different view. I was not trying to "shoot the messenger". I just wanted you to explain more about your initial post as I did not fully understand you rational, which you did explain - and thank you for that. What I took issue with was your comment "If you're not comfortable with this approach then I suggest you steer well clear. " and also with what i perceived to be a very condescending tone your reply. Is it not ok for others to question your approach? do you not think it is helpful for herbalists to learn from one another? I found your last post equally condescending and this time downright rude, in particular your comment "How about opening your mind?"You do not even know me, so I am offended by such a personal comment. I am also offended that you should : "question my reason for being on this list". My reason is to learn and to discuss things with other herbalists, not to be attacked in such a personal manner for asking questions (although right now I am questioning being on this list since there seems to be no room for healthy debate here without it getting personal).

It seems from a simple answer to another practitioner to try and assist them you have taken it as an issue because it does fit with your approach. If your not comfortable with what other Herbalists suggest then I'd question your reason for being on this list.The suggestions you made were to act centrally mine receptor based. There has been enough information given for you to check it out yourself.Again just because what someone suggests is outside your personal scope don't shoot the messenger. How about opening your mind?Annoyed!LorraineLorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 21 Aug 2012, at 18:38, Áine Marie Reilly wrote:

Did I say I was uncomfortable with the approach? I don't think being advised to avoid an approach by another herbalist is particularly helpful.

I have given relevant references if you want to check it out. I am sharing my approach and experience on the matter to hopefully help and her client. This is a typical approach I would use in such a case as it works well for me. If you are uncomfortable about it then please avoid this approach.Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 20 Aug 2012, at 13:45, Áine Marie Reilly wrote:

Lorraine,I was just giving my own experience of Vitex worsening hot flushes in some people, saying what approach I usually take, and asking questions. I think it is important that herbalists share their experiences and learn from eachother. It is not about me being uncomfortable with an approach or needing to "steer well clear". It's about people learning from each other and discussing different the different approaches. Unfortunately it seems that questioning anything on this forum seems to cause offence. Of course I am aware that oestrogenic and progesterogenic herbs can be used together, I was just questioning your description of Alchemilla as a "weak oestrogen" when I have always understood it to be progesterogenic. If there is some research or experience to suggest it is oestrogenic then I would be interested to hear it. Likewise, I have generally avoided using diaphoretics for obvious reasons, but again it was a question, as I am interested in discussing approaches that I have avoided, and hearing what other people's experiences are.

Hello Aine,Following work of Dr Lee used such a combination for years. The idea is that small amounts of weak oestrogens and progesterone potentise each other leading to a greater effect overall. A bit like the way herbs can act synergistically, making the most of any remaining natural hormone the patient has. If you're not comfortable with this approach then I suggest you steer well clear. Again combination of Tilia and Salvia tea very stabilising. Some other Herbalists use Sambucus as well though I'm happy with Tilia. The reasons for these approaches are well known.Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 18 Aug 2012, at 13:22, Áine Marie Reilly wrote:

Isn't Alchemilla more progesterogenic? I tend to use it for conditions with excess rather than deficient oestrogen. Also, since Vitex increases LH, it can worsen hot flushes in some people. I find that it's better for perimenopausal symptoms such as heavy bleeding, mastalgia and exaccerbation of PMS rather than hot flushes. I also wonder about whether Tilia would be a good idea since it's a diaphoretic?I would use oestrogenic herbs such as Cimicifuga, Dioscorea and Salvia for hot flushes, together with general cooling herbs, liver support (very important following use of HRT, and other herbs depending on the individual.

Yes I've found that when gradually reducing meds that it's relatively easy to start with but gets harder and harder with the last bits. Although to think about it you're going from 100% to zero quite a big step. The theory I've used is that the body is given enough time to adjust and adapt to the situation in the meantime.In this particular case I think I'd have overhauled the Rx and also given extra support e.g. I often provide a tea e.g. Salvia and Tilia 1:1 to be drunk 2-3 teapots worth daily. I would be trying to 'satisfy' the receptors in another way, as clearly here once the mainstay is gone they don't like it.Have you thought of weak oestrogens? Alchemilla vulgaris? Plus a bit of Vitex? Is a favourite of mine. As Leonurus.Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 18 Aug 2012, at 10:26, jeanrdow@... wrote:

help would be appreciated with this case. I've been working with a lady who has been on HRT for many years and wanted to discontinue. Have very successfully gradually reduced HRT with herbal support with virtually no menopause symptoms. Six weeks ago she was only taking 1 mg twice weekly so after three weeks of that tiny dose she stopped. Since then for the last three weeks her symptoms have become much much worse. She is now flushing every hour. I've had lots of success in the past with mainly cooling herbs and supporting the adrenal glands rather than "hormonal" herbs so that tends now to be my first approach.

Her mix has varied slightly but has included Atropa, humulus, borago, salvia, verbena, chamomilla, trifolium, melissa, leonurus, - obviously not all at once,

I'm slightly surprised that the reduction from such a small dose would have such an impact - is this usual? Does anyone find that patients who have been on HRT are harder to regulate thereafter? Any prescription suggestions would be much appreciated.

R Dow B.Sc.(Hons)B.A.(Hons), M.Sc.

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[Guest guest]

Dear Aine,

Please don't leave this group. I feel I need to add some comments here since I feel slightly responsible having asked the original question, but generally nowadays try to stay out of any conflict.

The whole purpose of this group I believed was to share ideas, protocols, opinions and to offer shared help in our profession. To this end I find it a wonderful source of both information and inspiration. Both of you put forward points in answer to my question that I found incredibly helpful and helped guide me with a different prescription. We MUST feel free to share, question and sometimes even challenge ourselves in what is supposed to be a supportive and safe environment. Everyone's experience is so valid and so vital, and certainly from my point of view - a very precious resource.

This line of discussion got quite personal and offensive and to be quite honest on first reading some of the replies I couldn't see where the offence was coming from. I didn't see Aine's questions as an attack or a criticism. To me it was just another viewpoint and something else that made me think "what is my experience with this herb". I frequently have put forward similar questions on other forums because I honestly want to know the basis for some others experience as its completely different from my understanding. I'm certainly not being critical. I don't think it is appropriate for any of us to question someone's right to be on this forum. If you are practising herbal medicine you should be here if you choose. I find its so easy to get into a rut when practising and using pretty much similar protocols all the time. This forum challenges me to "get out of my comfort zone/box" and think differently. The beauty of herbal medicine is that multiple approaches, sometimes completely contradictory, still work. We can't say one is right and one is wrong. It depends on the patient!!

We have enough constant external criticism which in the main is out with our control. We don't really need to turn on ourselves too. Can we just agree that two difference approaches work and that when someone questions, they are perhaps hoping to learn or expand their experience rather than criticise. Thank you both very much for your help with this patient. It made me rethink things and have given a different mix.

R Dow B.Sc.(Hons)B.A.(Hons), M.Sc.

[Guest guest]

well said Jean!

regards ,annette

[Guest guest]

Thank you for your post I completely agree with everything you have said. You have voiced very well what I have been trying to say: all experiences are valid, and multiple approaches, even if completely contradictory, can still work. Like you, I am very interested in the basis of other people's experiences, not in order to criticize, but in order to learn about different approaches, and to avoid getting into a rut. However, I will try to be more careful about how I phrase my questions in the future, as I realize how easy it can be to misinterpret a person's meaning when not talking in person.Thank you again, and I think it is time to put this all to bed.Best wishesAineMarie

Dear Aine,

Please don't leave this group. I feel I need to add some comments here since I feel slightly responsible having asked the original question, but generally nowadays try to stay out of any conflict.

The whole purpose of this group I believed was to share ideas, protocols, opinions and to offer shared help in our profession. To this end I find it a wonderful source of both information and inspiration. Both of you put forward points in answer to my question that I found incredibly helpful and helped guide me with a different prescription. We MUST feel free to share, question and sometimes even challenge ourselves in what is supposed to be a supportive and safe environment. Everyone's experience is so valid and so vital, and certainly from my point of view - a very precious resource.

This line of discussion got quite personal and offensive and to be quite honest on first reading some of the replies I couldn't see where the offence was coming from. I didn't see Aine's questions as an attack or a criticism. To me it was just another viewpoint and something else that made me think "what is my experience with this herb". I frequently have put forward similar questions on other forums because I honestly want to know the basis for some others experience as its completely different from my understanding. I'm certainly not being critical. I don't think it is appropriate for any of us to question someone's right to be on this forum. If you are practising herbal medicine you should be here if you choose. I find its so easy to get into a rut when practising and using pretty much similar protocols all the time. This forum challenges me to "get out of my comfort zone/box" and think differently. The beauty of herbal medicine is that multiple approaches, sometimes completely contradictory, still work. We can't say one is right and one is wrong. It depends on the patient!!

We have enough constant external criticism which in the main is out with our control. We don't really need to turn on ourselves too. Can we just agree that two difference approaches work and that when someone questions, they are perhaps hoping to learn or expand their experience rather than criticise. Thank you both very much for your help with this patient. It made me rethink things and have given a different mix.

R Dow B.Sc.(Hons)B.A.(Hons), M.Sc.

[Guest guest]

Thank you for your thoughts on this dilemma between fellow herbalists. We certainly cannot afford to start internal squabbles over different approaches and experience. These are difficult times for all and we should not shy away from discussions or even criticisms that help us grow and sharpen our knowledge bank. I really appreciate reading the messages on this forum.Many thanks to all. Nicola-Dee Sent via BlackBerry® from BTFrom: jeanrdow@...Sender: ukherbal-list Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 10:29:06 -0400 (EDT)To: <ukherbal-list >ReplyTo: ukherbal-list Subject: Re: menopause helpDear Aine, Please don't leave this group. I feel I need to add some comments here since I feel slightly responsible having asked the original question, but generally nowadays try to stay out of any conflict. The whole purpose of this group I believed was to share ideas, protocols, opinions and to offer shared help in our profession. To this end I find it a wonderful source of both information and inspiration. Both of you put forward points in answer to my question that I found incredibly helpful and helped guide me with a different prescription. We MUST feel free to share, question and sometimes even challenge ourselves in what is supposed to be a supportive and safe environment. Everyone's experience is so valid and so vital, and certainly from my point of view - a very precious resource. This line of discussion got quite personal and offensive and to be quite honest on first reading some of the replies I couldn't see where the offence was coming from. I didn't see Aine's questions as an attack or a criticism. To me it was just another viewpoint and something else that made me think "what is my experience with this herb". I frequently have put forward similar questions on other forums because I honestly want to know the basis for some others experience as its completely different from my understanding. I'm certainly not being critical. I don't think it is appropriate for any of us to question someone's right to be on this forum. If you are practising herbal medicine you should be here if you choose. I find its so easy to get into a rut when practising and using pretty much similar protocols all the time. This forum challenges me to "get out of my comfort zone/box" and think differently. The beauty of herbal medicine is that multiple approaches, sometimes completely contradictory, still work. We can't say one is right and one is wrong. It depends on the patient!! We have enough constant external criticism which in the main is out with our control. We don't really need to turn on ourselves too. Can we just agree that two difference approaches work and that when someone questions, they are perhaps hoping to learn or expand their experience rather than criticise. Thank you both very much for your help with this patient. It made me rethink things and have given a different mix. R Dow B.Sc.(Hons)B.A.(Hons), M.Sc.

[Guest guest]

Please don't show yourself up any further it's not appropriate to this list. Your comments were related directly to mine. I have every right to point this out: I don't take lightly to being challenged about sound advice I gave in good faith to another practitioner based on experience of many similar cases treated to try and assist them.

Lorraine

 

I am sorry if you feel I was challenging your judgement, as that was not my intention. You gave details of your preferred approach, which is fair enough, and which no doubt was helpful to other practitioners. However, the initial query was not directed to you alone, but was a general one. Therefore, am I not allowed to also give my preferred approach, even if it differs to yours? Am  I not also allowed to innovate and discover what gets my patients well, and pass on this experience to other practitioners?

My reason for being on this forum is to learn from and to help other herbalists. It is a discussion forum, so healthy discussion should be allowed. It is not a lecture theatre where one or two herbalists get to put themselves out there as experts who are beyond being questioned. If you suggest using Vitex, but my experience is that Vitex can worsen hot flushes in some people, or if you use Alchemilla as an oestrogenic but I consider it to be progesterogenic, am I not allowed to say this? should I just have kept my mouth shut and not communicated what I think is an important piece of information which other herbalists might want to know? Are other herbalists not entitled to have all the different opinions and make their own clinical decisions based on this?

I don't accept that I sparked this off. It takes two to have an argument. I only asked questions about your approach. I don't see the crime in that, but I am sorry if you found it difficult to have your approach questioned.  However, at no time did I say I was " uncomfortable " with your approach or that it I was in anyway " disturbed " by it. You have totally misrepresented what I actually said, which is very unfair.  Nor did I tell you which approaches to use or avoid, as you did to me, nor did I accuse you of being closed-minded or make any other similarly offensive comment, as you did to me, nor did I " question your reasons for being on the list " as you did to me. I do not appreciate being told to " avoid an approach " , to " steer clear " or to stay out of a debate by a fellow herbalist.

My initial response was in no way personal to you, it was a general enquiry about what herbalists thought of Alchemilla or the appropriateness of diaphoretics in the treatment of hot flushes. You have obviously taken offence at something which was not intended to cause offence. I am sorry if it did offend you, but I do think your responses to me have been unnecessarily harsh, personal, and rude, considering that all I did was ask questions about your choice of approach, and give details of the approach I take in such matters.

I have as much right to give my opinions as you do, and If you are so disturbed when someone questions your approach, or offers a different opinion, that you have to resort to rudeness, and trying to prevent others from entering the debate, then perhaps it is in fact you who should consider your reasons for being on this list, and not just me. However, If others feel that there is no room for questioning or difference of approach on this list, then I will happily leave it, as I don't see the point of being on a discussion forum which does not allow the discussion of different approaches.

 

It seems because I use a particular herb in a way you are unfamiliar with you don't want to question but challenge my judgment on the issue. I'm afraid it's you who are being condescending and have sparked off this whole unpleasant business. I like to innovate and discover what gets my patients well, I'm also happy to pass on this experience to other practitioners to help them in like manner. If this disturbs you to the point that you want to throw the whole thing back at me when I've provided adequate explanations rather than check things out first, then I'd rather you didn't enter the debate and steered clear as mentioned.

LorraineLorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 22 Aug 2012, at 11:06, Áine Marie Reilly wrote:

 

Yes I'm annoyed too.I have no problem with your approach, what I have taken as an issue is your reply to me. Right from the beginning I simply gave my own approach (also in order to try to assist the other practitioner) and asked questions about your approach, as I have had a different view. I was not trying to " shoot the messenger " . I just wanted you to explain more about your initial post as I did not fully understand you rational, which you did explain - and thank you for that. What I took issue with was your comment " If you're not comfortable with this approach then I suggest you steer well clear. "  and also with what i perceived to be a very condescending tone your reply. Is it not ok for others to question your approach? do you not think it is helpful for herbalists to learn from one another? 

I found your last post equally condescending and this time downright rude, in particular your comment " How about opening your mind? " You do not even know me, so I am offended by such a personal comment. I am also offended that you should : " question my reason for being on this list " . My reason is to learn and to discuss things with other herbalists, not to be attacked in such a personal manner for asking questions (although right now I am questioning being on this list since there seems to be no room for healthy debate here without it getting personal). 

 

It seems from a simple answer to another practitioner to try and assist them you have taken it as an issue because it does fit with your approach. If your not comfortable with what other Herbalists suggest then I'd question your reason for being on this list.

The suggestions you made were to act centrally mine receptor based. There has been enough information given for you to check it out yourself.Again just because what someone suggests is outside your personal scope don't shoot the messenger. How about opening your mind?

Annoyed!LorraineLorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.

Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.com

 

Did I say I was uncomfortable with the approach? I don't think being advised to avoid an approach by another herbalist is particularly helpful.

 

I have given relevant references if you want to check it out. I am sharing my approach and experience on the matter to hopefully help and her client. This is a typical approach I would use in such a case as it works well for me. If you are uncomfortable about it then please avoid this approach.

Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.com

 

Lorraine,I was just giving my own experience of Vitex worsening hot flushes in some people, saying what approach I usually take, and asking questions. I think it is important that herbalists share their experiences and learn from eachother. It is not about me being uncomfortable with an approach or needing to " steer well clear " . It's about people learning from each other and discussing different the different approaches. Unfortunately it seems that questioning anything on this forum seems to cause offence. 

Of course I am aware that oestrogenic and progesterogenic herbs can be used together, I was just questioning your description of Alchemilla as a " weak oestrogen " when I have always understood it to be progesterogenic. If there is some research or experience to suggest it is oestrogenic then I would be interested to hear it. Likewise, I have generally avoided using diaphoretics for obvious reasons, but again it was a question, as I am interested in discussing approaches that I have avoided, and hearing what other people's experiences are.

 

Hello Aine,Following work of Dr Lee used such a combination for years. The idea is that small amounts of weak oestrogens and progesterone potentise each other leading to a greater effect overall. A bit like the way herbs can act synergistically, making the most of any remaining natural hormone the patient has. If you're not comfortable with this approach then I suggest you steer well clear. 

Again combination of Tilia and Salvia tea very stabilising. Some other Herbalists use Sambucus as well though I'm happy with Tilia. The reasons for these approaches are well known.

Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.com

 

Isn't  Alchemilla more progesterogenic? I tend to use it for conditions with excess rather than deficient oestrogen. Also, since Vitex increases LH, it can worsen hot flushes in some people. I find that it's better for perimenopausal symptoms such as heavy bleeding, mastalgia and exaccerbation of PMS rather than hot flushes. I also wonder about whether Tilia would be a good idea since it's a diaphoretic?

I would use oestrogenic herbs such as Cimicifuga, Dioscorea and Salvia for hot flushes, together with general cooling herbs, liver support (very important following use of HRT, and other herbs depending on the individual.

 

Yes I've found that when gradually reducing meds that it's relatively easy to start with but gets harder and harder with the last bits. Although to think about it you're going from 100% to zero quite a big step. The theory I've used is that the body is given enough time to adjust and adapt to the situation in the meantime.

In this particular case I think I'd have overhauled the Rx and also given extra support e.g. I often provide a tea e.g. Salvia and Tilia 1:1 to be drunk 2-3 teapots worth daily. I would be trying to 'satisfy' the receptors in another way, as clearly here once the mainstay is gone they don't like it.

Have you thought of weak oestrogens?  Alchemilla vulgaris? Plus a bit of Vitex? Is a favourite of mine. As Leonurus.Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS

6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.com

 

help would be appreciated with this case.  I've been working with a lady who has been on HRT for many years and wanted to discontinue.  Have very successfully gradually reduced HRT with herbal support with virtually no menopause symptoms.  Six weeks ago she was only taking 1 mg twice weekly so after three weeks of that tiny dose she stopped.  Since then for the last three weeks her symptoms have become much much worse.  She is now flushing every hour.  I've had lots of success in the past with mainly cooling herbs and supporting the adrenal glands rather than " hormonal " herbs so that tends now to be my first approach.

 

Her mix has varied slightly but has included Atropa, humulus, borago, salvia, verbena, chamomilla, trifolium, melissa, leonurus, - obviously not all at once,

 

I'm slightly surprised that the reduction from such a small dose would have such an impact - is this usual?  Does anyone find that patients who have been on HRT are harder to regulate thereafter?  Any prescription suggestions would be much appreciated.

 

 

R Dow B.Sc.(Hons)B.A.(Hons), M.Sc.

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-- Lorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)

www.herbalmedicineuk.com