Guest guest Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 LorraineI was not aware that it was your role to police this list, to suggest who should or shouldn't be allowed to comment or what is appropriate. I have already explained my intentions fully, without at any point resorting to offensive comments or personal criticisms towards you. I have even apologised for any misunderstanding of the intention behind my questions, yet you have continued to be extremely rude and offensive towards me, and your latest comment is no exception. Therefore I am not willing to engage with you any further on this discussion.On 23 Aug 2012, at 19:51, Lorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHM wrote: Please don't show yourself up any further it's not appropriate to this list. Your comments were related directly to mine. I have every right to point this out: I don't take lightly to being challenged about sound advice I gave in good faith to another practitioner based on experience of many similar cases treated to try and assist them. Lorraine I am sorry if you feel I was challenging your judgement, as that was not my intention. You gave details of your preferred approach, which is fair enough, and which no doubt was helpful to other practitioners. However, the initial query was not directed to you alone, but was a general one. Therefore, am I not allowed to also give my preferred approach, even if it differs to yours? Am I not also allowed to innovate and discover what gets my patients well, and pass on this experience to other practitioners? My reason for being on this forum is to learn from and to help other herbalists. It is a discussion forum, so healthy discussion should be allowed. It is not a lecture theatre where one or two herbalists get to put themselves out there as experts who are beyond being questioned. If you suggest using Vitex, but my experience is that Vitex can worsen hot flushes in some people, or if you use Alchemilla as an oestrogenic but I consider it to be progesterogenic, am I not allowed to say this? should I just have kept my mouth shut and not communicated what I think is an important piece of information which other herbalists might want to know? Are other herbalists not entitled to have all the different opinions and make their own clinical decisions based on this? I don't accept that I sparked this off. It takes two to have an argument. I only asked questions about your approach. I don't see the crime in that, but I am sorry if you found it difficult to have your approach questioned. However, at no time did I say I was "uncomfortable" with your approach or that it I was in anyway "disturbed" by it. You have totally misrepresented what I actually said, which is very unfair. Nor did I tell you which approaches to use or avoid, as you did to me, nor did I accuse you of being closed-minded or make any other similarly offensive comment, as you did to me, nor did I "question your reasons for being on the list" as you did to me. I do not appreciate being told to "avoid an approach", to "steer clear" or to stay out of a debate by a fellow herbalist. My initial response was in no way personal to you, it was a general enquiry about what herbalists thought of Alchemilla or the appropriateness of diaphoretics in the treatment of hot flushes. You have obviously taken offence at something which was not intended to cause offence. I am sorry if it did offend you, but I do think your responses to me have been unnecessarily harsh, personal, and rude, considering that all I did was ask questions about your choice of approach, and give details of the approach I take in such matters. I have as much right to give my opinions as you do, and If you are so disturbed when someone questions your approach, or offers a different opinion, that you have to resort to rudeness, and trying to prevent others from entering the debate, then perhaps it is in fact you who should consider your reasons for being on this list, and not just me. However, If others feel that there is no room for questioning or difference of approach on this list, then I will happily leave it, as I don't see the point of being on a discussion forum which does not allow the discussion of different approaches. It seems because I use a particular herb in a way you are unfamiliar with you don't want to question but challenge my judgment on the issue. I'm afraid it's you who are being condescending and have sparked off this whole unpleasant business. I like to innovate and discover what gets my patients well, I'm also happy to pass on this experience to other practitioners to help them in like manner. If this disturbs you to the point that you want to throw the whole thing back at me when I've provided adequate explanations rather than check things out first, then I'd rather you didn't enter the debate and steered clear as mentioned. LorraineLorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392 Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 22 Aug 2012, at 11:06, Áine Marie Reilly wrote: Yes I'm annoyed too.I have no problem with your approach, what I have taken as an issue is your reply to me. Right from the beginning I simply gave my own approach (also in order to try to assist the other practitioner) and asked questions about your approach, as I have had a different view. I was not trying to "shoot the messenger". I just wanted you to explain more about your initial post as I did not fully understand you rational, which you did explain - and thank you for that. What I took issue with was your comment "If you're not comfortable with this approach then I suggest you steer well clear. " and also with what i perceived to be a very condescending tone your reply. Is it not ok for others to question your approach? do you not think it is helpful for herbalists to learn from one another? I found your last post equally condescending and this time downright rude, in particular your comment "How about opening your mind?"You do not even know me, so I am offended by such a personal comment. I am also offended that you should : "question my reason for being on this list". My reason is to learn and to discuss things with other herbalists, not to be attacked in such a personal manner for asking questions (although right now I am questioning being on this list since there seems to be no room for healthy debate here without it getting personal). It seems from a simple answer to another practitioner to try and assist them you have taken it as an issue because it does fit with your approach. If your not comfortable with what other Herbalists suggest then I'd question your reason for being on this list. The suggestions you made were to act centrally mine receptor based. There has been enough information given for you to check it out yourself.Again just because what someone suggests is outside your personal scope don't shoot the messenger. How about opening your mind? Annoyed!LorraineLorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK. Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.com Did I say I was uncomfortable with the approach? I don't think being advised to avoid an approach by another herbalist is particularly helpful. I have given relevant references if you want to check it out. I am sharing my approach and experience on the matter to hopefully help and her client. This is a typical approach I would use in such a case as it works well for me. If you are uncomfortable about it then please avoid this approach. Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392 Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.com Lorraine,I was just giving my own experience of Vitex worsening hot flushes in some people, saying what approach I usually take, and asking questions. I think it is important that herbalists share their experiences and learn from eachother. It is not about me being uncomfortable with an approach or needing to "steer well clear". It's about people learning from each other and discussing different the different approaches. Unfortunately it seems that questioning anything on this forum seems to cause offence. Of course I am aware that oestrogenic and progesterogenic herbs can be used together, I was just questioning your description of Alchemilla as a "weak oestrogen" when I have always understood it to be progesterogenic. If there is some research or experience to suggest it is oestrogenic then I would be interested to hear it. Likewise, I have generally avoided using diaphoretics for obvious reasons, but again it was a question, as I am interested in discussing approaches that I have avoided, and hearing what other people's experiences are. Hello Aine,Following work of Dr Lee used such a combination for years. The idea is that small amounts of weak oestrogens and progesterone potentise each other leading to a greater effect overall. A bit like the way herbs can act synergistically, making the most of any remaining natural hormone the patient has. If you're not comfortable with this approach then I suggest you steer well clear. Again combination of Tilia and Salvia tea very stabilising. Some other Herbalists use Sambucus as well though I'm happy with Tilia. The reasons for these approaches are well known. Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392 Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.com Isn't Alchemilla more progesterogenic? I tend to use it for conditions with excess rather than deficient oestrogen. Also, since Vitex increases LH, it can worsen hot flushes in some people. I find that it's better for perimenopausal symptoms such as heavy bleeding, mastalgia and exaccerbation of PMS rather than hot flushes. I also wonder about whether Tilia would be a good idea since it's a diaphoretic? I would use oestrogenic herbs such as Cimicifuga, Dioscorea and Salvia for hot flushes, together with general cooling herbs, liver support (very important following use of HRT, and other herbs depending on the individual. Yes I've found that when gradually reducing meds that it's relatively easy to start with but gets harder and harder with the last bits. Although to think about it you're going from 100% to zero quite a big step. The theory I've used is that the body is given enough time to adjust and adapt to the situation in the meantime. In this particular case I think I'd have overhauled the Rx and also given extra support e.g. I often provide a tea e.g. Salvia and Tilia 1:1 to be drunk 2-3 teapots worth daily. I would be trying to 'satisfy' the receptors in another way, as clearly here once the mainstay is gone they don't like it. Have you thought of weak oestrogens? Alchemilla vulgaris? Plus a bit of Vitex? Is a favourite of mine. As Leonurus.Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS 6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392 Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.com help would be appreciated with this case. I've been working with a lady who has been on HRT for many years and wanted to discontinue. Have very successfully gradually reduced HRT with herbal support with virtually no menopause symptoms. Six weeks ago she was only taking 1 mg twice weekly so after three weeks of that tiny dose she stopped. Since then for the last three weeks her symptoms have become much much worse. She is now flushing every hour. I've had lots of success in the past with mainly cooling herbs and supporting the adrenal glands rather than "hormonal" herbs so that tends now to be my first approach. Her mix has varied slightly but has included Atropa, humulus, borago, salvia, verbena, chamomilla, trifolium, melissa, leonurus, - obviously not all at once, I'm slightly surprised that the reduction from such a small dose would have such an impact - is this usual? Does anyone find that patients who have been on HRT are harder to regulate thereafter? Any prescription suggestions would be much appreciated. R Dow B.Sc.(Hons)B.A.(Hons), M.Sc. Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post | Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (19) -- Lorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2) www.herbalmedicineuk.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 HiRight - as we were;-) -Herbs!the question about Tilia's diaphoretic qualities -I use Tilia - usually as a tincture -occasionally for cooling menopausal patients, especially those for whom anxiety and tension is an issue. and find it quite effective. Also astragalus, which might also thought to be contra-indicated if you consider its reputation for "releasing to the exterior".My personal explanation for this relates to the disconnect between the actions of herbs and those of orthodox medicines. I think the disadvantage of using action terms for herbs is that they aren't "up to the job" of adequately describing the complexity of their action - While drugs tend to exhibit a strong and simple action (ttbomk), herbs can have seemingly contradictory actions and very rarely only have one action. A herb frequently affects function by restoring the integrity of the dysfunctioning tissues - so the same herb can be both hyper and hypo -tensive. And herbs referred to as anti-oxidants are usually actually better described as redox regulators. This latter has led to the unfortunate assumption that some herbs are contra-indicated in cancer treatment, when apparently experience demonstrates the opposite is the case.I suppose with Tilia, the diaphoresis it exhibits in a feverish child could be seen facilitating the natural homeostatic reaction to a fever, and the cooling effect in a menopausal woman perhaps promoting parasympathetic function and supporting the good functioning of blood vessels? I couldn't say for sure ;-) Also the difference between tincture and tea might be the explanation, but I don't find a cup of Tilia tea would heat me up - in contrast to an elderberry and apple crumble which certainly would. Hein Zeylstra used to refer to some herbs as "outspoken" in their actions - perhaps these ones are "unidirectional" rather than amphoteric?Re Vitex - I don't use it in menopause or peri-menopause, so can't comment............ but interestingly, I don't use it in menorrhagia, because I've known it cause heavy bleeding in previously normal women., whereas Aine Marie finds it useful........... " I find that it's better for peri-menopausal symptoms such as heavy bleeding,..........."fascinating stuff - you can see how different approaches can develop - I'm unlikely to use it in dysmenorrhea as I find my usual approach is generally effective (touch wood!) so without these discussions I wouldn't consider that in a patient with established menorrhagia it would help resolve matters. Because my experience suggests it to be an emmenagogue, and Bartram lists it as such! So maybe we can't extrapolate much from actions to contra-indications... And none of this takes into account the combinations of herbs have in modifying the actions of the constituent herbs. - I often regret that when I trained the traditional knowledge of herbal combinations was falling into disuse, and seems to have become almost forgotten (with the exception of paeony and liquorice )- if anybody has knowledge of these, it would be lovely to see them on the list - I like the BHP monographs with their section on good combinations for most herbs.Oh dear, rambling on, night allSally OwenThank you for your post I completely agree with everything you have said. You have voiced very well what I have been trying to say: all experiences are valid, and multiple approaches, even if completely contradictory, can still work. Like you, I am very interested in the basis of other people's experiences, not in order to criticize, but in order to learn about different approaches, and to avoid getting into a rut. However, I will try to be more careful about how I phrase my questions in the future, as I realize how easy it can be to misinterpret a person's meaning when not talking in person.Thank you again, and I think it is time to put this all to bed.Best wishesAineMarieDear Aine, Please don't leave this group. I feel I need to add some comments here since I feel slightly responsible having asked the original question, but generally nowadays try to stay out of any conflict. The whole purpose of this group I believed was to share ideas, protocols, opinions and to offer shared help in our profession. To this end I find it a wonderful source of both information and inspiration. Both of you put forward points in answer to my question that I found incredibly helpful and helped guide me with a different prescription. We MUST feel free to share, question and sometimes even challenge ourselves in what is supposed to be a supportive and safe environment. Everyone's experience is so valid and so vital, and certainly from my point of view - a very precious resource. This line of discussion got quite personal and offensive and to be quite honest on first reading some of the replies I couldn't see where the offence was coming from. I didn't see Aine's questions as an attack or a criticism. To me it was just another viewpoint and something else that made me think "what is my experience with this herb". I frequently have put forward similar questions on other forums because I honestly want to know the basis for some others experience as its completely different from my understanding. I'm certainly not being critical. I don't think it is appropriate for any of us to question someone's right to be on this forum. If you are practising herbal medicine you should be here if you choose. I find its so easy to get into a rut when practising and using pretty much similar protocols all the time. This forum challenges me to "get out of my comfort zone/box" and think differently. The beauty of herbal medicine is that multiple approaches, sometimes completely contradictory, still work. We can't say one is right and one is wrong. It depends on the patient!! We have enough constant external criticism which in the main is out with our control. We don't really need to turn on ourselves too. Can we just agree that two difference approaches work and that when someone questions, they are perhaps hoping to learn or expand their experience rather than criticise. Thank you both very much for your help with this patient. It made me rethink things and have given a different mix. R Dow B.Sc.(Hons)B.A.(Hons), M.Sc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 That's very interesting, Sally, thank you for the explanation. It opens up possibilities of herbs that I have previously avoided using due to not being sure about whether the effect might backfire and cause increased sweating. Best wishes,ÁineMarie HiRight - as we were;-) -Herbs!the question about Tilia's diaphoretic qualities -I use Tilia - usually as a tincture -occasionally for cooling menopausal patients, especially those for whom anxiety and tension is an issue. and find it quite effective. Also astragalus, which might also thought to be contra-indicated if you consider its reputation for "releasing to the exterior".My personal explanation for this relates to the disconnect between the actions of herbs and those of orthodox medicines. I think the disadvantage of using action terms for herbs is that they aren't "up to the job" of adequately describing the complexity of their action - While drugs tend to exhibit a strong and simple action (ttbomk), herbs can have seemingly contradictory actions and very rarely only have one action. A herb frequently affects function by restoring the integrity of the dysfunctioning tissues - so the same herb can be both hyper and hypo -tensive. And herbs referred to as anti-oxidants are usually actually better described as redox regulators. This latter has led to the unfortunate assumption that some herbs are contra-indicated in cancer treatment, when apparently experience demonstrates the opposite is the case.I suppose with Tilia, the diaphoresis it exhibits in a feverish child could be seen facilitating the natural homeostatic reaction to a fever, and the cooling effect in a menopausal woman perhaps promoting parasympathetic function and supporting the good functioning of blood vessels? I couldn't say for sure ;-) Also the difference between tincture and tea might be the explanation, but I don't find a cup of Tilia tea would heat me up - in contrast to an elderberry and apple crumble which certainly would. Hein Zeylstra used to refer to some herbs as "outspoken" in their actions - perhaps these ones are "unidirectional" rather than amphoteric?Re Vitex - I don't use it in menopause or peri-menopause, so can't comment............ but interestingly, I don't use it in menorrhagia, because I've known it cause heavy bleeding in previously normal women., whereas Aine Marie finds it useful........... " I find that it's better for peri-menopausal symptoms such as heavy bleeding,..........."fascinating stuff - you can see how different approaches can develop - I'm unlikely to use it in dysmenorrhea as I find my usual approach is generally effective (touch wood!) so without these discussions I wouldn't consider that in a patient with established menorrhagia it would help resolve matters. Because my experience suggests it to be an emmenagogue, and Bartram lists it as such! So maybe we can't extrapolate much from actions to contra-indications... And none of this takes into account the combinations of herbs have in modifying the actions of the constituent herbs. - I often regret that when I trained the traditional knowledge of herbal combinations was falling into disuse, and seems to have become almost forgotten (with the exception of paeony and liquorice )- if anybody has knowledge of these, it would be lovely to see them on the list - I like the BHP monographs with their section on good combinations for most herbs.Oh dear, rambling on, night allSally OwenThank you for your post I completely agree with everything you have said. You have voiced very well what I have been trying to say: all experiences are valid, and multiple approaches, even if completely contradictory, can still work. Like you, I am very interested in the basis of other people's experiences, not in order to criticize, but in order to learn about different approaches, and to avoid getting into a rut. However, I will try to be more careful about how I phrase my questions in the future, as I realize how easy it can be to misinterpret a person's meaning when not talking in person.Thank you again, and I think it is time to put this all to bed.Best wishesAineMarieDear Aine, Please don't leave this group. I feel I need to add some comments here since I feel slightly responsible having asked the original question, but generally nowadays try to stay out of any conflict. The whole purpose of this group I believed was to share ideas, protocols, opinions and to offer shared help in our profession. To this end I find it a wonderful source of both information and inspiration. Both of you put forward points in answer to my question that I found incredibly helpful and helped guide me with a different prescription. We MUST feel free to share, question and sometimes even challenge ourselves in what is supposed to be a supportive and safe environment. Everyone's experience is so valid and so vital, and certainly from my point of view - a very precious resource. This line of discussion got quite personal and offensive and to be quite honest on first reading some of the replies I couldn't see where the offence was coming from. I didn't see Aine's questions as an attack or a criticism. To me it was just another viewpoint and something else that made me think "what is my experience with this herb". I frequently have put forward similar questions on other forums because I honestly want to know the basis for some others experience as its completely different from my understanding. I'm certainly not being critical. I don't think it is appropriate for any of us to question someone's right to be on this forum. If you are practising herbal medicine you should be here if you choose. I find its so easy to get into a rut when practising and using pretty much similar protocols all the time. This forum challenges me to "get out of my comfort zone/box" and think differently. The beauty of herbal medicine is that multiple approaches, sometimes completely contradictory, still work. We can't say one is right and one is wrong. It depends on the patient!! We have enough constant external criticism which in the main is out with our control. We don't really need to turn on ourselves too. Can we just agree that two difference approaches work and that when someone questions, they are perhaps hoping to learn or expand their experience rather than criticise. Thank you both very much for your help with this patient. It made me rethink things and have given a different mix. R Dow B.Sc.(Hons)B.A.(Hons), M.Sc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 That is something you have totally made up. I am not the moderator of this list, I believe Graham is. ly your comments made me feel probably like Ben Ainslie felt. If it's outside your personal scope then steer clear, don't start attacking another Herbalists approach.Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 23 Aug 2012, at 20:35, Ãine Marie Reilly wrote: LorraineI was not aware that it was your role to police this list, to suggest who should or shouldn't be allowed to comment or what is appropriate. I have already explained my intentions fully, without at any point resorting to offensive comments or personal criticisms towards you. I have even apologised for any misunderstanding of the intention behind my questions, yet you have continued to be extremely rude and offensive towards me, and your latest comment is no exception. Therefore I am not willing to engage with you any further on this discussion.On 23 Aug 2012, at 19:51, Lorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHM wrote: Please don't show yourself up any further it's not appropriate to this list. Your comments were related directly to mine. I have every right to point this out: I don't take lightly to being challenged about sound advice I gave in good faith to another practitioner based on experience of many similar cases treated to try and assist them. Lorraine I am sorry if you feel I was challenging your judgement, as that was not my intention. You gave details of your preferred approach, which is fair enough, and which no doubt was helpful to other practitioners. However, the initial query was not directed to you alone, but was a general one. Therefore, am I not allowed to also give my preferred approach, even if it differs to yours? Am I not also allowed to innovate and discover what gets my patients well, and pass on this experience to other practitioners? My reason for being on this forum is to learn from and to help other herbalists. It is a discussion forum, so healthy discussion should be allowed. It is not a lecture theatre where one or two herbalists get to put themselves out there as experts who are beyond being questioned. If you suggest using Vitex, but my experience is that Vitex can worsen hot flushes in some people, or if you use Alchemilla as an oestrogenic but I consider it to be progesterogenic, am I not allowed to say this? should I just have kept my mouth shut and not communicated what I think is an important piece of information which other herbalists might want to know? Are other herbalists not entitled to have all the different opinions and make their own clinical decisions based on this? I don't accept that I sparked this off. It takes two to have an argument. I only asked questions about your approach. I don't see the crime in that, but I am sorry if you found it difficult to have your approach questioned. However, at no time did I say I was "uncomfortable" with your approach or that it I was in anyway "disturbed" by it. You have totally misrepresented what I actually said, which is very unfair. Nor did I tell you which approaches to use or avoid, as you did to me, nor did I accuse you of being closed-minded or make any other similarly offensive comment, as you did to me, nor did I "question your reasons for being on the list" as you did to me. I do not appreciate being told to "avoid an approach", to "steer clear" or to stay out of a debate by a fellow herbalist. My initial response was in no way personal to you, it was a general enquiry about what herbalists thought of Alchemilla or the appropriateness of diaphoretics in the treatment of hot flushes. You have obviously taken offence at something which was not intended to cause offence. I am sorry if it did offend you, but I do think your responses to me have been unnecessarily harsh, personal, and rude, considering that all I did was ask questions about your choice of approach, and give details of the approach I take in such matters. I have as much right to give my opinions as you do, and If you are so disturbed when someone questions your approach, or offers a different opinion, that you have to resort to rudeness, and trying to prevent others from entering the debate, then perhaps it is in fact you who should consider your reasons for being on this list, and not just me. However, If others feel that there is no room for questioning or difference of approach on this list, then I will happily leave it, as I don't see the point of being on a discussion forum which does not allow the discussion of different approaches. It seems because I use a particular herb in a way you are unfamiliar with you don't want to question but challenge my judgment on the issue. I'm afraid it's you who are being condescending and have sparked off this whole unpleasant business. I like to innovate and discover what gets my patients well, I'm also happy to pass on this experience to other practitioners to help them in like manner. If this disturbs you to the point that you want to throw the whole thing back at me when I've provided adequate explanations rather than check things out first, then I'd rather you didn't enter the debate and steered clear as mentioned. LorraineLorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392 Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 22 Aug 2012, at 11:06, Ãine Marie Reilly wrote: Yes I'm annoyed too.I have no problem with your approach, what I have taken as an issue is your reply to me. Right from the beginning I simply gave my own approach (also in order to try to assist the other practitioner) and asked questions about your approach, as I have had a different view. I was not trying to "shoot the messenger". I just wanted you to explain more about your initial post as I did not fully understand you rational, which you did explain - and thank you for that. What I took issue with was your comment "If you're not comfortable with this approach then I suggest you steer well clear. " and also with what i perceived to be a very condescending tone your reply. Is it not ok for others to question your approach? do you not think it is helpful for herbalists to learn from one another? I found your last post equally condescending and this time downright rude, in particular your comment "How about opening your mind?"You do not even know me, so I am offended by such a personal comment. I am also offended that you should : "question my reason for being on this list". My reason is to learn and to discuss things with other herbalists, not to be attacked in such a personal manner for asking questions (although right now I am questioning being on this list since there seems to be no room for healthy debate here without it getting personal). It seems from a simple answer to another practitioner to try and assist them you have taken it as an issue because it does fit with your approach. If your not comfortable with what other Herbalists suggest then I'd question your reason for being on this list. The suggestions you made were to act centrally mine receptor based. There has been enough information given for you to check it out yourself.Again just because what someone suggests is outside your personal scope don't shoot the messenger. How about opening your mind? Annoyed!LorraineLorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK. Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.com Did I say I was uncomfortable with the approach? I don't think being advised to avoid an approach by another herbalist is particularly helpful. I have given relevant references if you want to check it out. I am sharing my approach and experience on the matter to hopefully help and her client. This is a typical approach I would use in such a case as it works well for me. If you are uncomfortable about it then please avoid this approach. Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392 Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.com Lorraine,I was just giving my own experience of Vitex worsening hot flushes in some people, saying what approach I usually take, and asking questions. I think it is important that herbalists share their experiences and learn from eachother. It is not about me being uncomfortable with an approach or needing to "steer well clear". It's about people learning from each other and discussing different the different approaches. Unfortunately it seems that questioning anything on this forum seems to cause offence. Of course I am aware that oestrogenic and progesterogenic herbs can be used together, I was just questioning your description of Alchemilla as a "weak oestrogen" when I have always understood it to be progesterogenic. If there is some research or experience to suggest it is oestrogenic then I would be interested to hear it. Likewise, I have generally avoided using diaphoretics for obvious reasons, but again it was a question, as I am interested in discussing approaches that I have avoided, and hearing what other people's experiences are. Hello Aine,Following work of Dr Lee used such a combination for years. The idea is that small amounts of weak oestrogens and progesterone potentise each other leading to a greater effect overall. A bit like the way herbs can act synergistically, making the most of any remaining natural hormone the patient has. If you're not comfortable with this approach then I suggest you steer well clear. Again combination of Tilia and Salvia tea very stabilising. Some other Herbalists use Sambucus as well though I'm happy with Tilia. The reasons for these approaches are well known. Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392 Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.com On 18 Aug 2012, at 13:22, Ãine Marie Reilly < Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 Sally said:perhaps promoting parasympathetic function and supporting the good functioning of blood vessels? Yes this is along the lines I use it. Seems to add a nice regulating/stabilising effect in this particular area, as well as being beautifully calming. Also counteracts the more bitterish flavours of the Salvia increasing compliance, as quite a bit needs to be drunk!Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson AHG MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 23 Aug 2012, at 22:07, Sally Owen wrote: HiRight - as we were;-) -Herbs!the question about Tilia's diaphoretic qualities -I use Tilia - usually as a tincture -occasionally for cooling menopausal patients, especially those for whom anxiety and tension is an issue. and find it quite effective. Also astragalus, which might also thought to be contra-indicated if you consider its reputation for "releasing to the exterior".My personal explanation for this relates to the disconnect between the actions of herbs and those of orthodox medicines. I think the disadvantage of using action terms for herbs is that they aren't "up to the job" of adequately describing the complexity of their action - While drugs tend to exhibit a strong and simple action (ttbomk), herbs can have seemingly contradictory actions and very rarely only have one action. A herb frequently affects function by restoring the integrity of the dysfunctioning tissues - so the same herb can be both hyper and hypo -tensive. And herbs referred to as anti-oxidants are usually actually better described as redox regulators. This latter has led to the unfortunate assumption that some herbs are contra-indicated in cancer treatment, when apparently experience demonstrates the opposite is the case.I suppose with Tilia, the diaphoresis it exhibits in a feverish child could be seen facilitating the natural homeostatic reaction to a fever, and the cooling effect in a menopausal woman perhaps promoting parasympathetic function and supporting the good functioning of blood vessels? I couldn't say for sure ;-) Also the difference between tincture and tea might be the explanation, but I don't find a cup of Tilia tea would heat me up - in contrast to an elderberry and apple crumble which certainly would. Hein Zeylstra used to refer to some herbs as "outspoken" in their actions - perhaps these ones are "unidirectional" rather than amphoteric?Re Vitex - I don't use it in menopause or peri-menopause, so can't comment............ but interestingly, I don't use it in menorrhagia, because I've known it cause heavy bleeding in previously normal women., whereas Aine Marie finds it useful........... " I find that it's better for peri-menopausal symptoms such as heavy bleeding,..........."fascinating stuff - you can see how different approaches can develop - I'm unlikely to use it in dysmenorrhea as I find my usual approach is generally effective (touch wood!) so without these discussions I wouldn't consider that in a patient with established menorrhagia it would help resolve matters. Because my experience suggests it to be an emmenagogue, and Bartram lists it as such! So maybe we can't extrapolate much from actions to contra-indications... And none of this takes into account the combinations of herbs have in modifying the actions of the constituent herbs. - I often regret that when I trained the traditional knowledge of herbal combinations was falling into disuse, and seems to have become almost forgotten (with the exception of paeony and liquorice )- if anybody has knowledge of these, it would be lovely to see them on the list - I like the BHP monographs with their section on good combinations for most herbs.Oh dear, rambling on, night allSally OwenThank you for your post I completely agree with everything you have said. You have voiced very well what I have been trying to say: all experiences are valid, and multiple approaches, even if completely contradictory, can still work. Like you, I am very interested in the basis of other people's experiences, not in order to criticize, but in order to learn about different approaches, and to avoid getting into a rut. However, I will try to be more careful about how I phrase my questions in the future, as I realize how easy it can be to misinterpret a person's meaning when not talking in person.Thank you again, and I think it is time to put this all to bed.Best wishesAineMarieDear Aine, Please don't leave this group. I feel I need to add some comments here since I feel slightly responsible having asked the original question, but generally nowadays try to stay out of any conflict. The whole purpose of this group I believed was to share ideas, protocols, opinions and to offer shared help in our profession. To this end I find it a wonderful source of both information and inspiration. Both of you put forward points in answer to my question that I found incredibly helpful and helped guide me with a different prescription. We MUST feel free to share, question and sometimes even challenge ourselves in what is supposed to be a supportive and safe environment. Everyone's experience is so valid and so vital, and certainly from my point of view - a very precious resource. This line of discussion got quite personal and offensive and to be quite honest on first reading some of the replies I couldn't see where the offence was coming from. I didn't see Aine's questions as an attack or a criticism. To me it was just another viewpoint and something else that made me think "what is my experience with this herb". I frequently have put forward similar questions on other forums because I honestly want to know the basis for some others experience as its completely different from my understanding. I'm certainly not being critical. I don't think it is appropriate for any of us to question someone's right to be on this forum. If you are practising herbal medicine you should be here if you choose. I find its so easy to get into a rut when practising and using pretty much similar protocols all the time. This forum challenges me to "get out of my comfort zone/box" and think differently. The beauty of herbal medicine is that multiple approaches, sometimes completely contradictory, still work. We can't say one is right and one is wrong. It depends on the patient!! We have enough constant external criticism which in the main is out with our control. We don't really need to turn on ourselves too. Can we just agree that two difference approaches work and that when someone questions, they are perhaps hoping to learn or expand their experience rather than criticise. Thank you both very much for your help with this patient. It made me rethink things and have given a different mix. R Dow B.Sc.(Hons)B.A.(Hons), M.Sc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2012 Report Share Posted August 24, 2012 > I was not aware that it was your role to police this list, (...) > That is something you have totally made up. (...) ENOUGH. Thanks. Henriette, moderator. -- Henriette Kress, AHG Helsinki, Finland Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.henriettesherbal.com New book: http://www.henriettesherbal.com/articles/pract-herbs.html Now also on Amazon UK: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/9526757505 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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