Re: AS and change/learning new behaviour

August 31, 2012

Just ruminating:

Does the lack of reply mean that I am asking a stupid question, or just that

people are fed up with me asking questions.

Just so I know not to bother anyone anymore, because the last thing I want to do

is annoy people.

Cheers,

Becky.

>

> Right, our relationship recently imploded yet again due to my AS husband

falling into himself and shutting down on me. This included:

> 1: Not making eye contact for about 4 weeks.

> 2: Not talking to me beyond rudimentary exchanges of information.

> 3: Beginning masturbating again, in place of a sexual relationship.

> 4: No physical contact, except for the daily 2 minute stroke - literally I was

getting far less attention than the dogs.

>

> This came about as a result of us moving to Germany. He told me later that he

didn't realise that the previous agreements we had made about saving our

marriage applied here in germany. Does he seriously believe it doesn't count if

it's in a different post/zip code?!?! Oh dear.

>

> So, yet again I blew up and threatened divorce. He had his very last chance

last year. So this time I am serious. I am making moves to secure my own

finances separating it from his. I can't bail out immediately, as we are in the

process of selling a house, and just moved country! And I have been very

blatant about my preparation and told him explicitly why. He is desperate for a

new chance, so I am treading water and waiting to see what he comes up with, as

I have told him, I am done with trying to fix a marriage on my own, whilst he

does exactly as he pleases. I have also told him that he has to do some work

for it to work, not just cruise along and reap the benefits of my hard work. So

emotionally, I am withdrawn and in self protection mode. Thankfully the hurt is

subsiding, but I'm still pretty raw.

>

> He is now extremely motivated and says he does understand what has annoyed me

so much, and that he realises that he needs external help. He tends to not be

able to distinguish between thought intentions and actual behaviour. 2 and 2

never come close to being put together, so we never get to 3 or 4! Previously

he seemed to think that if he willed something, it would come to be - seriously

like God in Genesis! He didn't seem to realise that he actually had to make

effort and do a whole bunch of stuff!

>

> So now he has realised that just by deciding to deal with the AS, this isn't

sufficient, and that he cannot change on his own, and I cannot help him as he is

often deaf to me (despite me being a low level expert in making changes,

rehabilitation, working as a life coach and a probation officer, oh, and having

read a lot of books and articles and blogs on AS!)

>

> So at the moment, he's EXTREMELY motivated, basically out of panic of losing

me. Also, he is abundantly aware that I don't feel love towards him anymore,

because he crushed it so many times. I told him this would happen, eventually,

and well, now it has. I don't know if one day I will be able to love him again,

simply never been pushed so very far by anyone! Having said that, I do care for

him immensely and wish him well in every way, to the extent that I would set him

up with a bachelor pad, organise all the utilities for him, and all the things

he struggles with, so that he isn't totally lost if I leave him. It wouldn't be

a malicious affair.

>

> So now he is trying to resuscitate the 3 day dead puppy.

>

> He is actually impressing me with his effort so far - He has:

> 1: Joined an online support group and is reading books, blogs and articles

> 2: Got onto the waiting list for formal diagnosis and support here in Germany.

> 3: Started some personal reflection - it's really simple stuff, that he let me

teach him, so he has like a daily check list which he uses to write a diary. He

has made up his own check list, as I am being really very hands off now.

> 4: He is using his checklist to ensure he communicates to me in ways that I

have told him are meaningful.

> 5: He has contacted a previous AS aware counsellor in the UK to arrange phone

counselling.

>

> I have tried to stop him doing too much, explaining that he's already given

himself a massive amount to do, and being AS, this will be harder for him to

sustain than for others. He sometimes listens on that one, so if he comes up

with another idea, he's now got a 'for the future' list. I also keep

reiterating that he needs to remember he is AS, and that he needs to be

sympathetic to his own needs. He can't just change who he is, and I would never

expect him to do so.

>

> My question is this:

> In AS it appears that the ability for social connections is somewhat hampered,

for a variety of reasons, and to different levels in different people. If

someone with AS is motivated and willing to learn new skills and make extra

efforts, can they really absorb the new skills, and to some extent change? Or

are they set in stone and totally unable to change, despite being motivated.

>

> Also, can someone with AS maintain their own motivation, or will they need to

use an external source, such as a therapist to check in with and receive

reminders and motivation, or Like Jon has to me, will he also desensitize to the

therapist and stop listening to him/her too?

>

> Basically, if he cannot make the changes, I have told him that I really don't

want to be in a situation of trying to have a relationship with someone so

vastly different to me, as I view it more as mutual torture, whereas we may both

be better off with someone a little more similar to each of us - him with more

of an introvert or needing less emotional connection and me with someone more

empathic. (trust me the changes I am talking about are pared down and basic, as

I have over the years learned to expect less and less, so we are now at the

minimum of acknowledging me on a daily basis for about 10 mins. - And I know

that some days aren't perfect, so willing to give space and be supportive of AS,

as I have always been since we worked out what was going wrong)

>

> Also, finally he has accepted that I may well leave him, and has agreed to let

me go if this is what I really want. I am still undecided, and need to see how

things go.

>

> So, can people with AS learn new skills and slowly incorporate them until they

are virtually automatic behaviours? Reading Tony Attwoods complete guide, it

seems to be possible, or are we flogging a dead horse?

>

> Love to hear from those with AS who are making changes, have made changes, or

have struggled with this. Also, any advice as to what I can do to support it

will help too.

>

> Also, love to hear from NT's in a relationship with AS guys who are trying to

change a little and their take on it all.

>

> Just sadly, it may end up being too little to late. I just don't know.

>

August 31, 2012

Probably just means that lots of people are on the last bit of summer vacation and away from their PCs. ~ "Nobody realizes that some people expend tremendous energy merely to be normal."--Albert Camus Sent from my VZW BlackBerrySender: aspires-relationships Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 19:06:50 +0000To: <aspires-relationships >ReplyTo: aspires-relationships Subject: Re: AS and change/learning new behaviour Just ruminating:Does the lack of reply mean that I am asking a stupid question, or just that people are fed up with me asking questions.Just so I know not to bother anyone anymore, because the last thing I want to do is annoy people.Cheers, Becky.>> Right, our relationship recently imploded yet again due to my AS husband falling into himself and shutting down on me. This included:> 1: Not making eye contact for about 4 weeks.> 2: Not talking to me beyond rudimentary exchanges of information.> 3: Beginning masturbating again, in place of a sexual relationship.> 4: No physical contact, except for the daily 2 minute stroke - literally I was getting far less attention than the dogs.> > This came about as a result of us moving to Germany. He told me later that he didn't realise that the previous agreements we had made about saving our marriage applied here in germany. Does he seriously believe it doesn't count if it's in a different post/zip code?!?! Oh dear.> > So, yet again I blew up and threatened divorce. He had his very last chance last year. So this time I am serious. I am making moves to secure my own finances separating it from his. I can't bail out immediately, as we are in the process of selling a house, and just moved country! And I have been very blatant about my preparation and told him explicitly why. He is desperate for a new chance, so I am treading water and waiting to see what he comes up with, as I have told him, I am done with trying to fix a marriage on my own, whilst he does exactly as he pleases. I have also told him that he has to do some work for it to work, not just cruise along and reap the benefits of my hard work. So emotionally, I am withdrawn and in self protection mode. Thankfully the hurt is subsiding, but I'm still pretty raw.> > He is now extremely motivated and says he does understand what has annoyed me so much, and that he realises that he needs external help. He tends to not be able to distinguish between thought intentions and actual behaviour. 2 and 2 never come close to being put together, so we never get to 3 or 4! Previously he seemed to think that if he willed something, it would come to be - seriously like God in Genesis! He didn't seem to realise that he actually had to make effort and do a whole bunch of stuff!> > So now he has realised that just by deciding to deal with the AS, this isn't sufficient, and that he cannot change on his own, and I cannot help him as he is often deaf to me (despite me being a low level expert in making changes, rehabilitation, working as a life coach and a probation officer, oh, and having read a lot of books and articles and blogs on AS!)> > So at the moment, he's EXTREMELY motivated, basically out of panic of losing me. Also, he is abundantly aware that I don't feel love towards him anymore, because he crushed it so many times. I told him this would happen, eventually, and well, now it has. I don't know if one day I will be able to love him again, simply never been pushed so very far by anyone! Having said that, I do care for him immensely and wish him well in every way, to the extent that I would set him up with a bachelor pad, organise all the utilities for him, and all the things he struggles with, so that he isn't totally lost if I leave him. It wouldn't be a malicious affair.> > So now he is trying to resuscitate the 3 day dead puppy.> > He is actually impressing me with his effort so far - He has:> 1: Joined an online support group and is reading books, blogs and articles> 2: Got onto the waiting list for formal diagnosis and support here in Germany.> 3: Started some personal reflection - it's really simple stuff, that he let me teach him, so he has like a daily check list which he uses to write a diary. He has made up his own check list, as I am being really very hands off now.> 4: He is using his checklist to ensure he communicates to me in ways that I have told him are meaningful.> 5: He has contacted a previous AS aware counsellor in the UK to arrange phone counselling.> > I have tried to stop him doing too much, explaining that he's already given himself a massive amount to do, and being AS, this will be harder for him to sustain than for others. He sometimes listens on that one, so if he comes up with another idea, he's now got a 'for the future' list. I also keep reiterating that he needs to remember he is AS, and that he needs to be sympathetic to his own needs. He can't just change who he is, and I would never expect him to do so.> > My question is this:> In AS it appears that the ability for social connections is somewhat hampered, for a variety of reasons, and to different levels in different people. If someone with AS is motivated and willing to learn new skills and make extra efforts, can they really absorb the new skills, and to some extent change? Or are they set in stone and totally unable to change, despite being motivated.> > Also, can someone with AS maintain their own motivation, or will they need to use an external source, such as a therapist to check in with and receive reminders and motivation, or Like Jon has to me, will he also desensitize to the therapist and stop listening to him/her too?> > Basically, if he cannot make the changes, I have told him that I really don't want to be in a situation of trying to have a relationship with someone so vastly different to me, as I view it more as mutual torture, whereas we may both be better off with someone a little more similar to each of us - him with more of an introvert or needing less emotional connection and me with someone more empathic. (trust me the changes I am talking about are pared down and basic, as I have over the years learned to expect less and less, so we are now at the minimum of acknowledging me on a daily basis for about 10 mins. - And I know that some days aren't perfect, so willing to give space and be supportive of AS, as I have always been since we worked out what was going wrong)> > Also, finally he has accepted that I may well leave him, and has agreed to let me go if this is what I really want. I am still undecided, and need to see how things go.> > So, can people with AS learn new skills and slowly incorporate them until they are virtually automatic behaviours? Reading Tony Attwoods complete guide, it seems to be possible, or are we flogging a dead horse?> > Love to hear from those with AS who are making changes, have made changes, or have struggled with this. Also, any advice as to what I can do to support it will help too.> > Also, love to hear from NT's in a relationship with AS guys who are trying to change a little and their take on it all.> > Just sadly, it may end up being too little to late. I just don't know.>

August 31, 2012

> Just ruminating:

>

> Does the lack of reply mean that I am asking a stupid question, or just that

people are fed up with me asking questions.

>

> Just so I know not to bother anyone anymore, because the last thing I want to

do is annoy people.

>

> Cheers,

> Becky.

Summer is definitely a factor, like says.

Also, more complex posts require a great deal of thought and time to

compose a coherent reply. Not everyone has that time or mental energy

to devote.

I've been thinking about your post, yet haven't had the time to really

sit down and draft a response that does it justice. It also doesn't

help that your experiences mirror the dynamics in my own marriage

(except with the roles reversed) and I don't have the sort of emotional

resources right now to revisit that pain.

Best,

~CJ

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Let your wise mind be governing your words, not your emotions.

August 31, 2012

Hi Becky,

Rest assured my lack of reply doesn't mean I haven't wanted to. It's one of

those that takes a while to think about and I've actually begun a reply a few

times only to abandon it when one of the little ones needs tending to ,can't

save drafts on phone). they're in bed now so I have a few moments' peace!!

I'm in similar position in that I'm married to a AS guy and am NS myself. You

sound like you are in a much better place than you were last week, protecting

yourself is wise. I often have times when I think 'is this worth it?' and when I

wish my husband was 'normal' which i hate myself for. He has had some major

depression issues in the past where he shut down. On the last occasion I was

much harsher with him and made him face up to the situation on his own. Sounds

like this is the approach you are taking too. Preparing for the alternative is

also a great idea. You know you are in a stronger place. When my husband gets

into an AS mood and is seemingly uncaring and blasÃ© and we fight I often end up

going to our room and cursing him and feeling such hatred. Actually I see that

now as a positive as love and hate are 'two sides of the same coin'. To feel a

lack of emotion as it seems you do right now is more serious and yet it could be

a sign of your own depression, numbing emotions. Almost a protective shield for

you.

As many discussed in your previous post, the fact you have no kids at this point

makes separation that bit easier should it come to that. I have two young

children and another on the way soon. I worry about what his reaction to me

leaving would be, in those few darkest moments where I have contemplated such a

move. On the other hand, having kids has helped my husband in some ways. He is

still selfish and he does find it very difficult to see things through the

children's perspective and to make allowances for them given their age and

levels of maturity, but he also has such depth of feeling for them that he tries

very hard to be a good dad, and he really is good in so many ways. He is their

main carer when I'm at work (usually with a list of what needs to be done each

day) and having that responsibility helps him feel more worthwhile since he

finds holding down a job for more than a couple of days a week impossible. So

though every case is different, perhaps do not rule out having a family with

your man should you be able to work through the present difficulties.

It sounds like your husband is very aware of the seriousness of the situation

and is trying. Others here advised you to step back and stop providing and

supporting so much and I echo those opinions. It has certainly helped here. I

hate acting colder sometimes as I'm a natural carer, but it is necessary.

Not sure if I have even addressed the main concerns, sorry. Just putting down

the thoughts that have been milling around my brain for the last day or two

before my muddled 'mummy brain' shuts down for the evening!!. I hope some of it

was at least a little helpful.

Sent from my iPhone

August 31, 2012

Re-reading my last reply and realise I said 'AS mood', implying my husband picks and chooses when he displays his AS. Of course I did not mean that and I apologise if this was how it read. I meant that sometimes when I am trying to sort through an issue with him, his AS difficulties can put up a barrier to the conversation, and my anxiety can often prevent me from making allowances for his difficulties. Sent from my iPhone

Just ruminating:

Does the lack of reply mean that I am asking a stupid question, or just that people are fed up with me asking questions.

Just so I know not to bother anyone anymore, because the last thing I want to do is annoy people.

Cheers,

Becky.

>

> Right, our relationship recently imploded yet again due to my AS husband falling into himself and shutting down on me. This included:

> 1: Not making eye contact for about 4 weeks.

> 2: Not talking to me beyond rudimentary exchanges of information.

> 3: Beginning masturbating again, in place of a sexual relationship.

> 4: No physical contact, except for the daily 2 minute stroke - literally I was getting far less attention than the dogs.

>

> This came about as a result of us moving to Germany. He told me later that he didn't realise that the previous agreements we had made about saving our marriage applied here in germany. Does he seriously believe it doesn't count if it's in a different post/zip code?!?! Oh dear.

>

> So, yet again I blew up and threatened divorce. He had his very last chance last year. So this time I am serious. I am making moves to secure my own finances separating it from his. I can't bail out immediately, as we are in the process of selling a house, and just moved country! And I have been very blatant about my preparation and told him explicitly why. He is desperate for a new chance, so I am treading water and waiting to see what he comes up with, as I have told him, I am done with trying to fix a marriage on my own, whilst he does exactly as he pleases. I have also told him that he has to do some work for it to work, not just cruise along and reap the benefits of my hard work. So emotionally, I am withdrawn and in self protection mode. Thankfully the hurt is subsiding, but I'm still pretty raw.

>

> He is now extremely motivated and says he does understand what has annoyed me so much, and that he realises that he needs external help. He tends to not be able to distinguish between thought intentions and actual behaviour. 2 and 2 never come close to being put together, so we never get to 3 or 4! Previously he seemed to think that if he willed something, it would come to be - seriously like God in Genesis! He didn't seem to realise that he actually had to make effort and do a whole bunch of stuff!

>

> So now he has realised that just by deciding to deal with the AS, this isn't sufficient, and that he cannot change on his own, and I cannot help him as he is often deaf to me (despite me being a low level expert in making changes, rehabilitation, working as a life coach and a probation officer, oh, and having read a lot of books and articles and blogs on AS!)

>

> So at the moment, he's EXTREMELY motivated, basically out of panic of losing me. Also, he is abundantly aware that I don't feel love towards him anymore, because he crushed it so many times. I told him this would happen, eventually, and well, now it has. I don't know if one day I will be able to love him again, simply never been pushed so very far by anyone! Having said that, I do care for him immensely and wish him well in every way, to the extent that I would set him up with a bachelor pad, organise all the utilities for him, and all the things he struggles with, so that he isn't totally lost if I leave him. It wouldn't be a malicious affair.

>

> So now he is trying to resuscitate the 3 day dead puppy.

>

> He is actually impressing me with his effort so far - He has:

> 1: Joined an online support group and is reading books, blogs and articles

> 2: Got onto the waiting list for formal diagnosis and support here in Germany.

> 3: Started some personal reflection - it's really simple stuff, that he let me teach him, so he has like a daily check list which he uses to write a diary. He has made up his own check list, as I am being really very hands off now.

> 4: He is using his checklist to ensure he communicates to me in ways that I have told him are meaningful.

> 5: He has contacted a previous AS aware counsellor in the UK to arrange phone counselling.

>

> I have tried to stop him doing too much, explaining that he's already given himself a massive amount to do, and being AS, this will be harder for him to sustain than for others. He sometimes listens on that one, so if he comes up with another idea, he's now got a 'for the future' list. I also keep reiterating that he needs to remember he is AS, and that he needs to be sympathetic to his own needs. He can't just change who he is, and I would never expect him to do so.

>

> My question is this:

> In AS it appears that the ability for social connections is somewhat hampered, for a variety of reasons, and to different levels in different people. If someone with AS is motivated and willing to learn new skills and make extra efforts, can they really absorb the new skills, and to some extent change? Or are they set in stone and totally unable to change, despite being motivated.

>

> Also, can someone with AS maintain their own motivation, or will they need to use an external source, such as a therapist to check in with and receive reminders and motivation, or Like Jon has to me, will he also desensitize to the therapist and stop listening to him/her too?

>

> Basically, if he cannot make the changes, I have told him that I really don't want to be in a situation of trying to have a relationship with someone so vastly different to me, as I view it more as mutual torture, whereas we may both be better off with someone a little more similar to each of us - him with more of an introvert or needing less emotional connection and me with someone more empathic. (trust me the changes I am talking about are pared down and basic, as I have over the years learned to expect less and less, so we are now at the minimum of acknowledging me on a daily basis for about 10 mins. - And I know that some days aren't perfect, so willing to give space and be supportive of AS, as I have always been since we worked out what was going wrong)

>

> Also, finally he has accepted that I may well leave him, and has agreed to let me go if this is what I really want. I am still undecided, and need to see how things go.

>

> So, can people with AS learn new skills and slowly incorporate them until they are virtually automatic behaviours? Reading Tony Attwoods complete guide, it seems to be possible, or are we flogging a dead horse?

>

> Love to hear from those with AS who are making changes, have made changes, or have struggled with this. Also, any advice as to what I can do to support it will help too.

>

> Also, love to hear from NT's in a relationship with AS guys who are trying to change a little and their take on it all.

>

> Just sadly, it may end up being too little to late. I just don't know.

>

August 31, 2012

Becky Hall wrote:

> Just ruminating:

>

> Does the lack of reply mean that I am asking a stupid question, or just that

people are fed up with me asking questions.

Too many questions, explicit or implied, *all-together-at-once* in one

lo-o-ng email. Off-putting. I might have responded, a time or two. But...

>

> Just so I know not to bother anyone anymore, because the last thing I want to

do is annoy people.

[ snip ]

- Bill ...AS; retired geneticist; 45 years married (2nd try), with

great-grandkids even

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

August 31, 2012

Hi Becky,

I agree with , most people are getting ready for the long weekend here in

North America. Some of us had responded to your post previous to this one. I

replied to the last one twice and my previous advice still holds. Your most

recent email has the same message, but more detail, and you asked for NT partner

input. Perhaps our AS members felt they should hold back and let NT members

speak. We do have quite a number of NT newcomers, and I hope that some of them

can respond. However, they, like you, may have more questions than answers.

All I can offer is my AS bluntness LOL. Ready? As I see it, the more serious

issues (emotional and physical rejection of you, preference to porn instead,

etc. ) have little to do with AS anymore. Looking for the magic answer that will

somehow address the AS component of these difficulties is just giving your

husband more time to do/not do what he's doing now, while you explain away to

*yourself* " why " he does what he does.

Oh yes, you can continue to try to " get through " to him, try to figure out how

" speak to him in his own language " until you are blue in the face. When that

fails, you can cry, scream, threaten to walk out. Things will improve for a

little while until the noise stops, and then the status quo will resume. This is

a merry-go-round. He's doing fine but you are going to slowly turn into a wreck.

Ask yourself this: would you tolerate all this if your husband didn't have an

excuse? Yes? No? If no, then don't tolerate it now because AS is not an excuse.

We on the spectrum KNOW this.

I would not feel comfortable counseling anyone to leave a marriage, or

conversely, encourage them to continue in a bad one. I am sure that is the

difficulty other members may have here in knowing how to advise you.

I will repeat my previous message, and that is if there is to be any hope at

all, your husband needs to show commitment to real and lasting change NOW. But

that won't happen unless you show YOU MEAN BUSINESS. Alas, it is human nature to

take the path of least resistance, especially if the consequences are mild or

non existent and that holds true for AS or NS. This has nothing to do with AS

" ability " to change or not, and everything to do with motivation. He needs to

see there are REAL CONSEQUENCES looming. If the marriage matters enough to him

then he will wake up and smell the coffee. If not, you are still young, there's

still time to find a *worthy* NS or AS mate and have a family.

Becky, I think all the answers are already in front of you, but right now you

are sitting on the fence hoping something will change. That is understandable,

but Newland's response to the other recent post of yours summed up the

situation very aptly, and she left you with some questions to consider:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/aspires-relationships/message/18867

cyber hugs

Helen

> >

> > Right, our relationship recently imploded yet again due to my AS husband

falling into himself and shutting down on me. This included:

> > 1: Not making eye contact for about 4 weeks.

> > 2: Not talking to me beyond rudimentary exchanges of information.

> > 3: Beginning masturbating again, in place of a sexual relationship.

> > 4: No physical contact, except for the daily 2 minute stroke - literally I

was getting far less attention than the dogs.

> >

> > This came about as a result of us moving to Germany. He told me later that

he didn't realise that the previous agreements we had made about saving our

marriage applied here in germany. Does he seriously believe it doesn't count if

it's in a different post/zip code?!?! Oh dear.

> >

> > So, yet again I blew up and threatened divorce. He had his very last chance