Re: Is domestic violence a personal choice?

[Guest guest]

Hi ,I am just going out to meet an Aspie for a mentor meeting, ironically because this mild mannered being, like Ian, has 'meltdowns' and we are going to talk about, not anger management, but aversion management when meltdowns occur. Which in the case of this chap, and my Ian, they do, as a matter of course. I will go into this in more detail later and create a better post - but for now, my first reaction is, when the 'violence' is about rage attacks that are triggered by noradrenaline, are about fear, are not aimed at you but you are the person who witnesses it or tries to amend the behaviour - then I think it is short sighted to say its not about AS?

IMHO. Ian bashes walls, and mirrors, shouts, and gets worked up, but with management of his fear triggers and his well being, those opportunities for build up have lessened. He will pace and mutter, sound angry and clench his jaw, so he appears at odds with everyone else when he is in a froth. The fact that he has lashed out at things and shouted at people during rage attacks, and that he cant remember anything afterwards and is so contrite and upset himself, makes me feel that his outbursts are to some degree, uncontrollable by him, but controllable (in an environmental sense) by me? Interesting subject.... I have a document called the Crisis Cycle which I have

attached here... more later Judy B From Judy Barrow To: "aspires-relationships "

<aspires-relationships > Sent: Tuesday, 7 August 2012, 12:56 Subject: Is domestic violence a personal choice? Hi CJ:Thanks for the article: Affective Deprivation Disorder: Does it Constitute a Relational Disorder and the book titled: ithymic Parenting: the Impacts on Children. I am changing the subject heading as I have a question for the group.I am taking a class on human sexuality and I love it. We have our 2nd exam this Wednesday and the teacher gave us cards and asked us to write an exam question. We then played this dumb game and rated the questions. We then discussed the top four that will be on the exam. My question rated

2nd. Here it is: “Does anger management work with offenders of domestic violence? Why or why not?†It is my understanding that most courts mandate anger management when it is really an issue about “control".The teacher insisted that violence is a “personal choiceâ€. A man that holds it together on the job or in the community and targets his partner or children at home is choosing this behavior, unless there is a mental illness involved, which might shed some light on his behavior, but does not excuse it.Organizations like ASAN have denounced any association with violence and AS and have alluded to the fact that they see AS/Autism as a cultural or a difference. Domestic violence has been a factor in our community probably at the same or similar rate in any other culture. If one subscribes to the notion that bad behavior is learned and can be replaced with good behavior, does the

domestic violence we see in our community fall under the same umbrella? Why or why not?For the sake of the argument, let’s define domestic violence to mean emotional, verbal, physical, economical, isolation or using the children or any other leverage as means to control their partner.I ask this question only to get a better understanding, as I am seeking my Bachelor’s in Human Development and Family Science.,I look forward to any feedback.Thank you and Best Regards as always.------------------------------------ "We each have our own way of living in the world, together we are like a symphony.Some are the melody, some are the rhythm, some are the harmony It all blends together, we are like a symphony, and each part is

crucial.We all contribute to the song of life." ...Sondra We might not always agree; but TOGETHER we will make a difference. ASPIRES is a closed, confidential, moderated list.Responsibility for posts to ASPIRES lies entirely with the original author. Do NOT post mail off-list without the author's permission. When in doubt, please refer to our list rules at: http://www.aspires-relationships.com/info_rules.htm ASPIRES ~ Climbing the mountain TOGETHER http://www.aspires-relationships.com/

[Guest guest]

Is domestic violence a personal choice?

: My question rated 2nd. Here it is: “Does anger management work with

offenders of domestic violence? Why or why not?” It is my understanding

that most courts mandate anger management when it is really an issue about

“control " .

Jennie: I am not very familiar with anger management and what it/they teach

in it. However I would agree that abuse/domestic violence is about control.

Therefore teaching someone to manage their anger, which is CAUSED by an over

developed need for control is not going to work long term. It will always

crumble because sooner or later the pressures from inside over losing

control will overcome the external training to control anger. The real

solution to this is to teach how to give up control, how to define what a

person should or should not be able to control, how to respect other

people's boundaries. And typically it's nearly impossible to teach control

freaks these things because they would have to give up control in order to

learn anything in the first place.

: The teacher insisted that violence is a “personal choice”. A man

that holds it together on the job or in the community and targets his

partner or children at home is choosing this behavior, unless there is a

mental illness involved, which might shed some light on his behavior, but

does not excuse it.

Jennie: I would agree with the teacher... there is no external force that

can make a person lift their arm and drive their fist into someone else.

Ultimately they choose that. They choose it because they firmly believe they

have the RIGHT to do so based on the notion that they have the RIGHT to be

in control of the other person and therefore the other person is 'asking for

it' when they do something against the controlling person. Be that as it

may, all that is choice. If it's not, why do we punish crime?

: Organizations like ASAN have denounced any association with violence

and AS and have alluded to the fact that they see AS/Autism as a cultural or

a difference. Domestic violence has been a factor in our community probably

at the same or similar rate in any other culture. If one subscribes to the

notion that bad behavior is learned and can be replaced with good behavior,

does the domestic violence we see in our community fall under the same

umbrella? Why or why not?

Jennie: In my opinion yes. I'm AS, I change. I make choices. Ultimately all

humans are driven externally by what is going on internally. Deal with your

insides and your outsides will change. Manage your life appropriately

according to your abilities, personality, likes, dislikes, desires, etc. and

you won't BE driven to extremes, regardless of your dx. But that means

letting go of trying to act like you fit in, trying to pretend to be like

everyone else, trying to keep up appearances. And it's worth noting, a

person can be antagonized to the point of being violent, sure. AS or NT...

that is true. A kid can be bullied and bullied and bullied until they

explode and pound someone. Are they responsible for that, absolutely. But so

are the people who bullied and picked.

This is true also of abuses other than physical.

Just me,

Jennie

[Guest guest]

I think I misses a post or two here ... I've been logy due to heat (I hate

heat), busy with with, a bit more divorce stress here and there ...

But AS and domestic violence is something I've experienced first hand.

My ex had several different anger management courses -- none helped much. He

took meds, too -- all that did was give him a few seconds in which he could tone

down the worst of his ranting. [x was never physically violent, mostly emotional

with a scattering of verbal. And lots and lots of gaslighting.]

In his case, it was all about controlling his environment. He had no clue that

my thought processes might be different than his, so if I was behaving in

inexplicable ways, I must have a reason, and it had to be to harm him. So the

only way he could make me behave in a predictable way was to emotionally abuse

and (attempt to) manipulate me.

Example: he loved being tickled, and could never believe that I hated it. So

every week or so, he'd try to convince me to let him tickle me, often by trying

to make me feel guilty that I didn't like to be tickled. This went on for 20

years, and he never gave up trying, because " of course she knows how wonderful

it is to be tickled, she's just hiding her feelings from me. "

I picked a mild example, but it's still abusive. 20 years of not listening to

me?

This kept on at a mild level until about a year before he went completely

mental. At that point, his thought processes went wacky, and his theory of mind

grew even worse. His demands became ever more irrational, he became even more

unable to see me as more than an extension of himself -- and one that wasn't

working right. [How would a sane person act if their left hand began doing

things on its own?] When he told me I should kill myself because I was such a

miserable coward, I knew I could no longer live with him. [i am not a coward,

was not miserable, except when dealing with him, and have never been suicidal.

100% projection.]

I no longer trusted my physical safety around him. What's the bible verse, " if

they right eye offend thee, pluck it out " ? I could feel him preparing to pluck

me.

This sounds extreme, but I bet most abusive people go through similar thought

patterns. Yes, it's about control, but more about weak boundaries and a lack of

*self* control.

--Liz

still getting occasional attacks from my ex, when we're forced to communicate.

But they're through e-mail, and I am safe.

>

> Is domestic violence a personal choice?

>

>

> : My question rated 2nd. Here it is: “Does anger management work with

> offenders of domestic violence? Why or why not?” It is my understanding

> that most courts mandate anger management when it is really an issue about

> “control " .

>

> Jennie: I am not very familiar with anger management and what it/they teach

> in it. However I would agree that abuse/domestic violence is about control.

> Therefore teaching someone to manage their anger, which is CAUSED by an over

> developed need for control is not going to work long term. It will always

> crumble because sooner or later the pressures from inside over losing

> control will overcome the external training to control anger. The real

> solution to this is to teach how to give up control, how to define what a

> person should or should not be able to control, how to respect other

> people's boundaries. And typically it's nearly impossible to teach control

> freaks these things because they would have to give up control in order to

> learn anything in the first place.

>

> : The teacher insisted that violence is a “personal choice”. A man

> that holds it together on the job or in the community and targets his

> partner or children at home is choosing this behavior, unless there is a

> mental illness involved, which might shed some light on his behavior, but

> does not excuse it.

>

> Jennie: I would agree with the teacher... there is no external force that

> can make a person lift their arm and drive their fist into someone else.

> Ultimately they choose that. They choose it because they firmly believe they

> have the RIGHT to do so based on the notion that they have the RIGHT to be

> in control of the other person and therefore the other person is 'asking for

> it' when they do something against the controlling person. Be that as it

> may, all that is choice. If it's not, why do we punish crime?

>

> : Organizations like ASAN have denounced any association with violence

> and AS and have alluded to the fact that they see AS/Autism as a cultural or

> a difference. Domestic violence has been a factor in our community probably

> at the same or similar rate in any other culture. If one subscribes to the

> notion that bad behavior is learned and can be replaced with good behavior,

> does the domestic violence we see in our community fall under the same

> umbrella? Why or why not?

>

> Jennie: In my opinion yes. I'm AS, I change. I make choices. Ultimately all

> humans are driven externally by what is going on internally. Deal with your

> insides and your outsides will change. Manage your life appropriately

> according to your abilities, personality, likes, dislikes, desires, etc. and

> you won't BE driven to extremes, regardless of your dx. But that means

> letting go of trying to act like you fit in, trying to pretend to be like

> everyone else, trying to keep up appearances. And it's worth noting, a

> person can be antagonized to the point of being violent, sure. AS or NT...

> that is true. A kid can be bullied and bullied and bullied until they

> explode and pound someone. Are they responsible for that, absolutely. But so

> are the people who bullied and picked.

>

> This is true also of abuses other than physical.

>

> Just me,

>

> Jennie

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> " We each have our own way of living in the world, together we are

like a symphony.

> Some are the melody, some are the rhythm, some are the harmony

> It all blends together, we are like a symphony, and each part is crucial.

> We all contribute to the song of life. "

> ...Sondra

>

> We might not always agree; but TOGETHER we will make a difference.

>

> ASPIRES is a closed, confidential, moderated list.

> Responsibility for posts to ASPIRES lies entirely with the original author.

> Do NOT post mail off-list without the author's permission.

> When in doubt, please refer to our list rules at:

> http://www.aspires-relationships.com/info_rules.htm

> ASPIRES ~ Climbing the mountain TOGETHER

> http://www.aspires-relationships.com

>

[Guest guest]

Hi , I think I get this, but open to discussion:

I trained and worked for a few years as a Probation Officer in the UK, and I can

tell you that Domestic Violence should be treated by a specific DV course, as it

is very much about power and control.

Anger management is entirely different, and in fact, evidence showed that the

wrong intervention, ie: anger management makes the perp MORE crafty,

manipulative and calculating. They will use the 'time out' method as another

way to abuse their partner, by removing the right to respond or resolve a

problem within the relationship for example.... Ooh, the powers of google - have

a look here and see if you can find some more evidence, but it's well known:

http://www.wscadv.org/docs/Batterers_Intervention.pdf

Basically DV is very particularly used to manipulate the partner. In those with

AS, there is a risk of this kind of controlling behaviour due to a lack of

empathy, and also some tendencies towards needing to control their environment.

However please note that I am not saying ALL ASPIES ARE CONTROL FREAK DV PERPS!

It just can contribute, just as much as growing up watching one parent abuse

another will massively influence the tendency towards becoming an abuser,

because it forms part of your blueprint for 'how relationships work'.

One of the big things that is taught on offender management programmes is

decision making, and decision gates (simple definition:

http://www.pauljoo.com/wp/2011/10/26/what-is-decision-gate/): what can seem like

an immediate reaction can actually be broken down, into a series of smaller

decisions which legitimate a certain course of action, from being a child

abuser, to shoplifting, to taking drugs to hurting your partner. It's all

common and fairly universal. Once you understand how you 'suddenly' got there -

and that it's not actually very sudden, it does break down essentially to

personal choice - I want to hit that person, I don't see why I shouldn't, ok,

I'll hit them. As opposed to a learned replacement process 'I want to hit that

person, hmm, I wonder why that is? Is it me or is it them, ok what other

options to I have to resolve this? Is it acceptable and respectful behaviour?

What are the consequences going to be for me or them? I need time to think it

over, I won't hit them now.'

That's my personal view on it, from the way we were trained in 2004.

Anger management strategies will work as well as the person learning them wants

to work. If that person finds the raging in some way self rewarding then the

motivation continues. By developing victim empathy, in all situations of

antisocial or abusive behaviour, the person will learn that their behaviour has

other impacts broader than themselves. In the case of those on the Autistic

Spectrum, it really depends on how far into it they are, as to whether they can

absorb the information about the impact on others. I don't know enough about

it, but would guess that it's a significant block to progress. But I do believe

that ultimately it is a personal decision, however you rationalise it, and from

whatever direction you have arrived at it.

As a person who has lashed out physically, been in DV situations as a victim and

parental abuse, I do find that what I was taught really made a lot of sense.

There's always that point at which you could turn back and decide not to do

something, the point when you feel your temper rising, or going our of control.

It's about being willing to accept you need to change and that YOU are the

person who needs to take action, not someone else's fault or to lean on someone

else to pick up the pieces afterwards.

Ah, a nice firing up of the ol' braincells!

Have fun!

>

> Hi CJ:

> Thanks for the article: Affective Deprivation Disorder: Does it Constitute a

Relational Disorder and the book titled: ithymic Parenting: the Impacts on

Children. I am changing the subject heading as I have a question for the group.

> I am taking a class on human sexuality and I love it. We have our 2nd exam

this Wednesday and the teacher gave us cards and asked us to write an exam

question. We then played this dumb game and rated the questions. We then

discussed the top four that will be on the exam. My question rated 2nd. Here

it is: " Does anger management work with offenders of domestic violence? Why or

why not? " It is my understanding that most courts mandate anger management when

it is really an issue about " control " .

> The teacher insisted that violence is a " personal choice " . A man that holds

it together on the job or in the community and targets his partner or children

at home is choosing this behavior, unless there is a mental illness involved,

which might shed some light on his behavior, but does not excuse it.

> Organizations like ASAN have denounced any association with violence and AS

and have alluded to the fact that they see AS/Autism as a cultural or a

difference. Domestic violence has been a factor in our community probably at

the same or similar rate in any other culture. If one subscribes to the notion

that bad behavior is learned and can be replaced with good behavior, does the

domestic violence we see in our community fall under the same umbrella? Why or

why not?

> For the sake of the argument, let's define domestic violence to mean

emotional, verbal, physical, economical, isolation or using the children or any

other leverage as means to control their partner.

> I ask this question only to get a better understanding, as I am seeking my

Bachelor's in Human Development and Family Science.,

> I look forward to any feedback.

> Thank you and Best Regards as always.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'm glad you are safe Liz! :-)

And I agree that most abusive people go through very similar thought

patterns.

Jennie

Re: Is domestic violence a personal choice?

This sounds extreme, but I bet most abusive people go through similar

thought patterns. Yes, it's about control, but more about weak boundaries

and a lack of *self* control.

--Liz

still getting occasional attacks from my ex, when we're forced to

communicate. But they're through e-mail, and I am safe.

[Guest guest]

Based on both observation and personal experience, my perception is that

a need for control may be an issue of trust, safety, and getting one's

needs met.It could also relate to confining a situation to one where I

know how to cope - change it, and I am lost.

Andromeda

[Guest guest]

> Based on both observation and personal experience, my perception is that

> a need for control may be an issue of trust, safety, and getting one's

> needs met.It could also relate to confining a situation to one where I

> know how to cope - change it, and I am lost.

I think that's true for almost all NTs, but Aspergers brings a new dimension to

the picture -- doesn't it always?

Some of us Aspies have a good understanding of theory of mind. We know that

other people are *people*, that they have their own internal lives that are very

different from our own.

But one of the common traits of AS is weak theory of mind. People with weak ToM

don't understand that others have their own consciousness, that they can put the

same facts together in a very different way -- and that that is OK.

There's a psych test usually done with little kids. The test subject and another

person see that a toy is hidden under one of two containers. The other person

leaves the room, and a third person comes in and moves the toy under the other

container. The test subject is then asked which container the other person (not

in the room) will look under first to find the toy.

If the test subject has good theory of mind, they will know the other person

will look in the original place. But little kids, and Aspies with poor ToM, will

assume the other person knows the toy was moved.

What does this have to do with abuse? In my case, I was the person who left the

room, and my ex was the test subject. His thoughts and desires were the toy ...

he could never understand that I didn't know what was going on in his skull. Not

only that, he didn't know that he didn't know ... it never occurred to him I had

my own thoughts.

So, when I behaved in a way that didn't make sense to him, he provided an

explanation that assumed I knew what he wanted. If I knew, and still didn't do

it, I *had* to be up to something. When he was up to something, it was usually

something " bad " and shameful, so I was hiding bad, shameful things too.

As part of our final counseling sessions, ex insisted on reading aloud an essay

he wrote. He knew he had problems regulating anger, but because he was open

about it, it was all right. However, my anger was buried deep within me, like a

glacier, and would come out eventually and turn the world upside down.

Even with the therapist's best help (an she's an AS marriage specialist) he

could not even conceive that I was not operating from anger. " Everyone has anger

within him or her. "

When my ex was faced with too many parts of his world that didn't make sense, he

went psycho. And his actions make perfect sense -- as long as one believes he

has the only mind in the universe.

I'll end with something a good friend (and therapist) said to me during all

this. Everything a mentally ill person does follows a strictly logical path.

100% logical, 100% sensible ... however the initial conditions are odd. But from

there, everything follows.

--Liz