Guest guest Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Hi ,I tend to laser FCE's 1) to simulate blood flow to & through the area which may promote angiogenesis and subsequently help cord functioning.2) to directly treat the spinal cord... although the paper I like best on the subject - that actually took a stab at guesstimating laser attenuation through the different tissues on the way to the spinal cord - utilized: (my synopsis of the paper below. PS It was a rat study.) "Light, delivered transcutaneously, improves recovery after injury and suggests that light will be a useful treatment for human spinal cord injuries." Byrnes KR, Waynant RW, Ilev IK et al. (2005) ‘Light promotes regeneration and functional recovery and alters the immune response after spinal cord injury.’ Lasers Surg Med. 36: 171 – 185. This study used a 810nm, 150mW laser and provided a daily dose of 1589 J/cm2 by administering the light for 2997 seconds/day. Treatment started 15 minutes after surgery and continued for 14 days. Study dorsal hemisection.Results: (speculated 6% power penetration to the spinal cord depth). Significantly increased axonal number and distance regrowth. Suppressed immune cell activation and cytokine/chemokine expression.Return of some aspects of function to baseline levels. Cheers,Laurie Laurie Edge-, BScPT, MAnimSt(Animal Physio), CAFCI, CCRTCEO,Four Leg Rehab Inc.Canine Rehab Educational ResourcesWWW.FOURLEG.COMCheck it out!! So enjoyable to read thisWhat would benefits of laser be for FCE? Maybe I am missing something Freedman VMD CCRTSent from my iPhone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Laurie,Do you deliver that much energy without any side effects?Power and Energy deposition: Incident power density is the power output of the laser divided by the area of the beam. For the red to near-IR wavelengths, the American National Standards Institute (ANSI) standard for the maximum incident power density that will not cause injury to non-pigmented tissue is 200 mW/cm2 and and a maximum total amount of energy that can be deposited into tissue (200 J/cm2) without causing injury.Rick Wall, DVMThe Woodlands, TX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 So how can we actually pinpoint where to apply the light? do we really get enough penetration to make a differnece-the human study showed 50 minutes a day-what do we supposedly use? are we speaking class 3 or class 4 lasers? > Hi , > > I tend to laser FCE's > 1) to simulate blood flow to & through the area which may promote > angiogenesis and subsequently help cord functioning. > 2) to directly treat the spinal cord... although the paper I like best on > the subject - that actually took a stab at guesstimating laser attenuation > through the different tissues on the way to the spinal cord - utilized: > (my synopsis of the paper below. PS It was a rat study.) > > " Light, delivered transcutaneously, improves recovery after injury and > suggests that light will be a useful treatment for human spinal cord > injuries. " > Byrnes KR, Waynant RW, Ilev IK et al. (2005) ‘Light promotes regeneration > and functional recovery and alters the immune response after spinal cord > injury.’ Lasers Surg Med. 36: 171 – 185. > This study used a 810nm, 150mW laser and provided a daily dose of 1589 J/cm2 > by administering the light for 2997 seconds/day. Treatment started 15 > minutes after surgery and continued for 14 days. > > Study dorsal hemisection. > Results: (speculated 6% power penetration to the spinal cord depth). > Significantly increased axonal number and distance regrowth. Suppressed > immune cell activation and cytokine/chemokine expression. > Return of some aspects of function to baseline levels. > > Cheers, > > Laurie > > > > Laurie Edge-, BScPT, MAnimSt(Animal Physio), CAFCI, CCRT > CEO, > Four Leg Rehab Inc. > Canine Rehab Educational Resources > WWW.FOURLEG.COM > Check it out!! > > > > > >> >> So enjoyable to read this >> What would benefits of laser be for FCE? Maybe I am missing something >> >> Freedman VMD CCRT >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> > > -- Regards, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Hey Rick,No, I don't ever get around to delivering that amount of energy! But I might get up to 100 - 200 or more J/cm2 cumulative dose per 'area' treated... and subsequently don't feel bad about lasering as much as I can within a treatment session (which tends to be less than 2997 seconds).I have wondered about this recommendation below - I know you have posted it before... and I think there has to be more to it than just blanket number:I've been wondering if it mean delivered all at once without moving?I'll have to investigate the context a little further when I get some spare time.Good point to bring up Rick!Laurie Laurie,Do you deliver that much energy without any side effects?Power and Energy deposition: Incident power density is the power output of the laser divided by the area of the beam. For the red to near-IR wavelengths, the American National Standards Institute (ANSI) standard for the maximum incident power density that will not cause injury to non-pigmented tissue is 200 mW/cm2 and and a maximum total amount of energy that can be deposited into tissue (200 J/cm2) without causing injury.Rick Wall, DVMThe Woodlands, TX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Well, we can do our best with anatomical landmarking... I figure some laser is better than none... and even if the outcome is 'increase in blood flow' and the 'indirect' effects - that's not all that bad! And the study was on Rats - but presented in a human journal with the underlying 'relevance of the research' being POTENTIAL human application. Class 3b. 810nm, 150mW laser Laurie > So how can we actually pinpoint where to apply the light? do we really > get enough penetration to make a differnece-the human study showed 50 > minutes a day-what do we supposedly use? > are we speaking class 3 or class 4 lasers? > > > > >> Hi , >> >> I tend to laser FCE's >> 1) to simulate blood flow to & through the area which may promote >> angiogenesis and subsequently help cord functioning. >> 2) to directly treat the spinal cord... although the paper I like best on >> the subject - that actually took a stab at guesstimating laser attenuation >> through the different tissues on the way to the spinal cord - utilized: >> (my synopsis of the paper below. PS It was a rat study.) >> >> " Light, delivered transcutaneously, improves recovery after injury and >> suggests that light will be a useful treatment for human spinal cord >> injuries. " >> Byrnes KR, Waynant RW, Ilev IK et al. (2005) ‘Light promotes regeneration >> and functional recovery and alters the immune response after spinal cord >> injury.’ Lasers Surg Med. 36: 171 – 185. >> This study used a 810nm, 150mW laser and provided a daily dose of 1589 J/cm2 >> by administering the light for 2997 seconds/day. Treatment started 15 >> minutes after surgery and continued for 14 days. >> >> Study dorsal hemisection. >> Results: (speculated 6% power penetration to the spinal cord depth). >> Significantly increased axonal number and distance regrowth. Suppressed >> immune cell activation and cytokine/chemokine expression. >> Return of some aspects of function to baseline levels. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Laurie >> >> >> >> Laurie Edge-, BScPT, MAnimSt(Animal Physio), CAFCI, CCRT >> CEO, >> Four Leg Rehab Inc. >> Canine Rehab Educational Resources >> WWW.FOURLEG.COM >> Check it out!! >> >> >> >> >> >>> >>> So enjoyable to read this >>> What would benefits of laser be for FCE? Maybe I am missing something >>> >>> Freedman VMD CCRT >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >> >> > > > -- > Regards, > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 29, 2012 Report Share Posted August 29, 2012 1.) Laser used in cases of hemi-laminectomy are indicated as the bone surrounding the herniated disc has been removed. 2.) laser for FCE pose two dilemmas: a.) I am unaware that our lasers have the capacity to pass through bone to have any great effect and; b.) even with the use of MR imaging, accurate laser placement for an FCE is challenging at best. Remember that these lesions are not very large. In order to pass through bone, the only curative energy source I know of that has this ability is some form of ionizing radiation such as Radiation Therapy. ph A. DeLucia DVM, CCRP Director of Rehabilitation Services- Valley Animal Hospital 1171 Valley Road Clifton, New Jersey 07013 ext. 303 drd@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 29, 2012 Report Share Posted August 29, 2012 Hi.I tend to laser motor points and along the involved nerve routes. I also laser any area that has palpable inflammation or heat.Amie Hesbach 1.) Laser used in cases of hemi-laminectomy are indicated as the bone surrounding the herniated disc has been removed. 2.) laser for FCE pose two dilemmas: a.) I am unaware that our lasers have the capacity to pass through bone to have any great effect and; b.) even with the use of MR imaging, accurate laser placement for an FCE is challenging at best. Remember that these lesions are not very large. In order to pass through bone, the only curative energy source I know of that has this ability is some form of ionizing radiation such as Radiation Therapy. ph A. DeLucia DVM, CCRP Director of Rehabilitation Services- Valley Animal Hospital 1171 Valley Road Clifton, New Jersey 07013 ext. 303 drd@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 29, 2012 Report Share Posted August 29, 2012 RE: 2 b. There is significant research by Dr. Becker (Body Electric) and Bjorn Nordentrom, MD and others regarding the transmission of 0.5 Hx and 500 microamperes as in Alpha-Stim through bone. The pattern of treatment makes the exact point less significant as it will pass through the area. I have a training seminar coming up September 28 – 29th approved for 12 hours CE. Maybe some of you would like to attend and get the research and science behind it. Along with how to treat workshop. Ava Frick, DVM, CAC From: VetRehab [mailto:VetRehab ] On Behalf Of ph DeLucia DVM, CCRPSent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 7:13 AMTo: VetRehab Subject: Re: LASER and FCE 1.) Laser used in cases of hemi-laminectomy are indicated as the bone surrounding the herniated disc has been removed.2.) laser for FCE pose two dilemmas:a.) I am unaware that our lasers have the capacity to pass through bone to have any great effect and;b.) even with the use of MR imaging, accurate laser placement for an FCE is challenging at best. Remember that these lesions are not very large.In order to pass through bone, the only curative energy source I know of that has this ability is some form of ionizing radiation such as Radiation Therapy.ph A. DeLucia DVM, CCRPDirector of Rehabilitation Services- Valley Animal Hospital 1171 Valley RoadClifton, New Jersey 07013 ext. 303drd@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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