Re: AS and Choice

[Guest guest]

A request: when you change the subject line, don't just change it from "XXXXXX" to "YYYYYYY"; instead change it from "XXXXXX" to "YYYYYYYY was (XXXXXXX)". This will allow those of us who had been following the XXXXXX thread to realize it has changed its name to YYYYYYY, so that if we wanted to refer back to an earlier post in the thread to refresh our minds about some point we will know that YYYYYYY is a continuation of XXXXXXX. Thanks!~ "Nobody realizes that some people expend tremendous energy merely to be normal."--Albert Camus Sent from my VZW BlackBerrySender: aspires-relationships Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 20:18:46 -0700To: <aspires-relationships >ReplyTo: aspires-relationships Subject: AS and Choice Hi Steve, Thanks for your response. I have changed the subject lineand should have done that earlier. Our roles are reversed a bit. I am NT and am very aware ofAS. I have been reading and learning about it for 10+ years. Mypartner is not diagnosed, but has many, many AS traits. Sometimes I feelwe spend too much time on labels in the world. My partner does not wantto be labeled – he also refers to not wanting to be broken. I thinkthat in his mind, label = negative = broken. I have said more times thanI can count that being AS is simply a different way of thinking – not bador good, but different. He goes negative and the discussion breaks downand he slams his ears closed, his eyes closed and we get nowhere. For me,I don’t care what it is called – AS is just a way of describing agroup of behaviors some of which apply and some of which may not apply –it is only a place to start a conversation and work toward a solution. Ihave also likened it to speaking different languages – Spanish forinstance being no better or worse than French, just different. The twolanguage speakers just need to begin understanding some words in each other’slanguages in order to begin straightening out misunderstandings andmysteries. The conversation on ASPIRES has also been about Cassandra syndrome,which I have always really related to – not because I know or do not knowthat it is correct or incorrect or started with Aston, Atwood, or & . What I do care about is that the description is something that Irelate to – that describes something and some feelings that I haveexperienced. Again, just a place to start a conversation and work towarda solution. My question to you stemmed from the power of choice in ASthinking. My partner believes he has none. I believe that he doesindeed have the power of choice. Because it is NT/AS I suspect that it issomewhere in the middle. I don’t know. I do know that Ibelieve that he has a choice to indeed so some things and that he chooses notto. We can go into the reasons at another time, but I do not believe thatthe reason is that someone with AS cannot choose their behavior to a largeextent. We have much, much water under the bridge as Helen does, socertainly a piece of the frustration when he or I try is that it is notrecognized/wanted/acknowledged. There has been so much between us that itis hard to trust that a positive movement is indeed that. Plus there isthe exhaustion of the past – sometimes I want something – really –and if it might happen, by that point I am just emotionally worn out. Ijust don’t care. I generally do not write on the list and do not want to makethis long, but let me tell you about Valentine’s Day. We had beenhaving terrible communication for weeks. The weekend before V Day I heardnothing from him. For years, I have asked him to call me mid day to checkin, etc. say hi. He never did. On the Monday before Valentine’sday, he calls midday to just check in. OK….On Valentine’s Day he calls again midday – what didI want to do? He shows up 30 minutes late that evening. With adozen roses and a card. The card was really sugary and valentiney –plus it sand a song. Well, this is the exact thing that many women wantand get and it leads to all kinds of Hallmark things. Were the flowersbeautiful – yes. When I saw and heard the card, I asked him if heread it (and he proceeded to do that), all words that I had begged to hear fromhim for months…years. Did I want those things, yes – but Idid not want to have battled and begged for them for years. Nor did I want to be sad because I felt he had the choice allthe time – every day – to do those things, but did not. Hechose to make me ask and ask. Yes, would I have done that naturally –probably so. Is it natural for him – probably not. But doeshe have a choice to do something to remember some of these things sometimes –make a list, etc. Yes, I think he does. So that is the question. Is there a choice of behavior inthe mix? If he can do it when he does stop and think, couldn’tthat be more regular. And my question to me – can I get to the point where I amnot too exhausted with the behavior to care again. Sorry for the trail of thoughts. It is just the grief atthe loss. Cheryl From:aspires-relationships [mailto:aspires-relationships ] On Behalf Of BassMan_720Sent: Monday, March 05, 2012 9:22 AMTo: aspires-relationships Subject: Re: " Cassandra and Apollo " (Maxine Aston) -Workshop feedback Hi Cheryl.My situation is very clear cut and not part of my often mistaken ASperspective. My wife reacted very badly to the realisation that I have AS.We've known for about 18 months now and in that time I have beeen looking forways to compensate for my natural behaviour.My wife has made it clear that I have to sort myself out on my own, becausethis is my problem. She has no intention of working with me.She has also stated very clearly that she still cares for me but she no longerloves me and that we live in the same house only for the sake of our daughters.It has also. Been made very clear by word of mouth and in writing that I mustnot do anything to show any emotion or feelings that I have for her as this " puts her under pressure " . (I do not understand the last and often madestatement.)The outlook is not good. I sincerely hope that this account has no analogy withyour own situation.I can however understand where your partner is coming from. When I had arelationship, before realising about my AS, I could get very frustrated when effortsto be close to my wife and show her support were rejected. It is difficult fotNTs to understand their partner's needs and feelings from time to time. I nowknow that my AS made it even more difficult for me to understand when and whatkind of support, if any, that my wife needed. More often than not I would readthe signs very wrong and feel as though the negetive reaction was aimed at mebecause of something that I had done, which I now know was not necessarly thecase.Best wishesSteve>> Hi Steve,> > Interesting that you say you are not permitted to try to connect> emotionally.> > My partner will say " you will not let me be there for you " and Irespond> that being there on any level is not my choice to make FOR him but his> choice to make for himself. > > I would be very interested in a further description of your perspective to> help me understand this difference better.> > Thanks!> > > Cheryl - NT

[Guest guest]

Hi Cheryl

Our roles may be reversed but there are many analogies. Many of the things that

you state could have been written by my wife. I too am undiagnosed and would not

welcome a formal diagnosis, which could damage a, so far, successful career. A

diagnosis on its own would not make me any more or less AS. If I am unable to

find work in a crisis hit UK, when I return at the end of the year, I may

reconsider.

My wife had suspected that I had AS for a few years. My 11 year old daughter has

AS and we are so alike in many ways that it would be difficult to miss it. I

started to suspect about my own AS about 18 months ago, after reading a book on

psychology that I picked up at the airport, to see me through a long haul

flight. It was after my own coming to terms that I had AS that the wheel fell

off my relationship. Before then, I was happy and content to carry on, totally

unaware of the devastation that I left behind in my wake. My wife previously had

hope that I would improve with age but she is now convinced that I can never

change.

To me AS is more than a difference. I consider myself defective rather than

broken. I am missing a sense that NTs have. This sense is similar to being blind

or deaf but not so obvious or disabling. I also believe that many of the

behaviours, typical of people with AS, are symptoms of coping mechanisms,

learned from an early age, to deal with the root cause, the missing sense. I

also believe that these behaviours can be unlearned with the right guidance and

support.

I read about Cassandra Syndrome shortly after realizing about my AS. I was

absolutely devastated by numerous accounts by women from various backgrounds. I

felt so guilty of what I had been putting my wife through, inadvertently, for

all of those years.

And now to the crux of the question: choice. Everyone has choices, including

choices about how to behave. In my case, I do not intend to behave

inappropriately or cause hurt. I would always choose to behave in a way that is

acceptable to and did not offend others. However, I have great difficulty doing

this. I understand that this is not the type of choice that you wish to address

but the following example helps me to illustrate a point made above. This

example is very recent, from earlier this week. I will not go into details but I

can say that I behaved inappropriately, by answering some questions in an

insensitive way. I have since been admonished for it. I did not choose to behave

inappropriately and I had no idea that I had even done anything wrong, until I

was informed later. Yes, I felt really bad about it. So, how did this come

about? My own analysis of the event is that I was in a very relaxed atmosphere

and so my reasoning head was not fully attentive and I was not aware of how

sensitive the particular issue was. An NT would have most likely picked up the

sensitivity of the issue and responded more appropriately without thinking. So,

I opened my mouth and put my foot in it. I don't have an answer yet on how I can

address this. Without the ability to sniff out sensitive issues and without a

technique to address not seeing the blindingly obvious I can choose several

courses of action to prevent reoccurrence, each of which result in different AS

typical behaviours.

• I can do nothing and risk repeating inappropriate behaviour in the next

situation – people with AS don't learn;

• I can sit in the corner and say nothing, in fear of getting things wrong –

people with AS don't join in conversation; or,

• I can avoid the situation altogether – people with AS don't socialize.

I like to socialize, I like to join in conversation (although I'm not very good

at small talk) but I don't want to repeat the situation and I am very likely to

miss the obvious again in a different context. None of these options work for

me, so one could say that I have no choice. I would welcome advice to help me

here.

OK, this is not the kind of choice that you are referring to. Put over simply

you may be asking the question, " If your partner loved you, why would my partner

choose to do or not to do something, particularly if it is something that he

should know you might appreciate? If he loved you, why would your partner choose

not to cherish you more often, particularly as you know that he can choose to

for the special event, e.g. the Valentine's day example? I have been guilty of

choosing not to do some nice things and since done much self-analysis of my own

behaviour. The answer is fear and apathy. I always knew that my wife would like

more attention from me and would appreciate small tokens that showed my

appreciation for her, from time to time. I was not good at this. In the early

days, I did try but the outcome was often a disaster. I would either do things

that were not appropriate for the occasion or totally miss-read how my wife was

feeling and miss-time my good intent badly. I do not like getting things wrong

and so I became fearful. It became easier to do nothing than do the wrong thing

consistently. I know that this is not good enough.

Getting things wrong consistently is at the core of my AS. I have to reason

through everything that I do. I can make very quick decisions about highly

important and complex issues, providing that I have some factual basis to base

my reasoning and judgement. But, ask me what colour curtains I should put in the

living room or what I would like for dinner and I am stumped totally. I lack the

ability to come to decisions intuitively. This is something that most NT's do

well. They seem able to process much more than I can in real time, by somehow

doing much of the reasoning off line. Until I discovered about my AS, I believed

that everybody had thought processes that were similar to mine and had to reason

everything through. I now understand that this is far from true. In deciding on

a gift, for example, I would try to put myself in my wife's shoes, and I would

get her something I would like if I was in her situation. I would look for all

sorts of clues about what she would like but I could never tap into how she

really felt. I would never have considered buying flowers, for example, because

they had no practical use for her. I would never have considered the gift as

just nice. I very often would choose not to do something because I did stop and

think.

I wish I could turn the clock back. I now know that I don't have to understand

why my wife would like something I just have to appreciate that she does. I also

realise that I will likely continue to get things wrong unless I find a special

workaround or get assistance from somebody else. There are women, whose opinions

I can seek about nice/romantic gifts, who can help me and I can set out lists

and timetables to prompt me when to do something nice.

Even with my marriage in the poor state that it is currently in, I too went out

of my way to buy my wife something nice for Valentine's day, which I left for

her to find when I went to work. She sent me a very terse email in return

telling me not to do it again. She still ate the chocolates though.

On Valentine's day your partner chose to go the extra mile for you. He probably

went through similar thought processes as me and struggled about what to do. He

may have gone against his own judgment or asked for help to get you something

that you would appreciate. I am so sorry that you to are grieving at loss or

what may have been. If your partner does get something right please let him know

in no uncertain terms. Negative feedback does not work well for many people with

AS. I have got used to getting things wrong, pointing out faults no longer has

an impact because it is the norm. I know that I would really like to know if and

when I get something right. I must do from time to time. I just don't know what

good behaviors to repeat.

Sorry for the long reply. It is just the view of someone with AS who has picked

up the wrong end of the stick.

I sincerely wish you well and that you are able to find the stamina to be able

to continue your uphill and lonely battle.

Best wishes

Steve