Re: Vitamin A Megadose: Some kind of reaction Good or bad sign?

[Guest guest]

Dr McCandless,

Two years ago we tried one dose of the 300,000 IUs vitamin A and our son

threw up 9 hrs later. We decided not to do the 2nd day dose because we

thought throwing up may be a sign of vitamin A toxicity. Your opinion at the

time was it was most likely not a toxic vit A reaction.

Today we tried again. Our son was fine for several hours and then started

looking nauseated. Ironically enough, he threw up at the 9 hour mark again

just like 2 years ago. Based on what you indicated back then, we are

inclined to go ahead with the 2nd dose tomorrow.

My question is: If the throwing up is not really a vitamin A toxicity sign,

then what is causing it? Is this possibly a good " detox " sign that the

measles are under a major attack by the vitamin A? If so then a 2nd dose

would be a good thing and 25,000 IU maint. since it may be that he is loaded

with measles.

Your thoughts are appreciated,

L

Re: Re: Cross Post: Vitamin A Megadose Question

Please Help

: Thanks, you are correct - I still stand by the protocol of 400,000iu

a day (all at once) for 2 days every six months (or 300,000 for smaller

kids). I use Klaire's mycelized A at 5000iu per drop. I have had no problems

with many many parents doing this for years now. You would have to talk to

Megson about her idea of mutating viruses - I know nothing about that.

I routinely give all but tiny kids 25,000iu daily for maintenance in

addition to the bolus every 6 months if they still have gut problems

(nodular hyperplasia from measles doesn't go away very easily). Dr. JM

adoptinggrace <adoptinggrace@ <mailto:adoptinggrace%40mindspring.com>

mindspring.com> wrote:

.. I think Dr. McCandless just posted in recent days the Vitamin

A Protocol that she and Dr. Baker worked on...it is in the files of

CK2 also. That is still her opinion but don't know that she ever

posted anything on any difference of protocol opinion with Dr.

Megson. Different doctors have somewhat different approaches at

times to the same treatment and Dr. JM still stands by the

paper/protocol that she and Dr. Baker published from the best of my

knowledge. I think you might want to check this document before

doing it for dosage recommendations too from her standpoint-before

you decide what to do. There are also follow up posts on this in the

old messages most likely so that might be helpful too. With the

improved search feature you can find things much quicker now!

>

> Listmates,

>

> We are considering doing the vitamin A megadose. My understanding

from the

> ck2 files and posts on CSB is that the dose is 300,000 IUs per day

for 2

> days. I noticed a letter in the ck2 files section dated Dec 11,

2005 with

> the following note:

>

> " Dr. Megson told us she no longer does the 400,000 iu two day dose

of Vit A.

> The most she is now doing is 25,000 iu per day. Dr. Megson said

there is

> some concern with the possibility of the high dose of Vit A

mutating viruses

> in the body and creating something new. "

>

> This note is about a year old. Does anyone know if Dr. Megson

still does not

> follow the megadose protocol and what her current position is?

>

> Has Dr McCandless posted at all on Dr Megson's concern?

>

> Thanks for anyone that has info.

>

> L

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dr McCandless,

Two years ago we tried one dose of the 300,000 IUs vitamin A and our son

threw up 9 hrs later. We decided not to do the 2nd day dose because we

thought throwing up may be a sign of vitamin A toxicity. Your opinion at the

time was it was most likely not a toxic vit A reaction.

Today we tried again. Our son was fine for several hours and then started

looking nauseated. Ironically enough, he threw up at the 9 hour mark again

just like 2 years ago. Based on what you indicated back then, we are

inclined to go ahead with the 2nd dose tomorrow.

My question is: If the throwing up is not really a vitamin A toxicity sign,

then what is causing it? Is this possibly a good " detox " sign that the

measles are under a major attack by the vitamin A? If so then a 2nd dose

would be a good thing and 25,000 IU maint. since it may be that he is loaded

with measles.

Your thoughts are appreciated,

L

Re: Re: Cross Post: Vitamin A Megadose Question

Please Help

: Thanks, you are correct - I still stand by the protocol of 400,000iu

a day (all at once) for 2 days every six months (or 300,000 for smaller

kids). I use Klaire's mycelized A at 5000iu per drop. I have had no problems

with many many parents doing this for years now. You would have to talk to

Megson about her idea of mutating viruses - I know nothing about that.

I routinely give all but tiny kids 25,000iu daily for maintenance in

addition to the bolus every 6 months if they still have gut problems

(nodular hyperplasia from measles doesn't go away very easily). Dr. JM

adoptinggrace <adoptinggrace@ <mailto:adoptinggrace%40mindspring.com>

mindspring.com> wrote:

.. I think Dr. McCandless just posted in recent days the Vitamin

A Protocol that she and Dr. Baker worked on...it is in the files of

CK2 also. That is still her opinion but don't know that she ever

posted anything on any difference of protocol opinion with Dr.

Megson. Different doctors have somewhat different approaches at

times to the same treatment and Dr. JM still stands by the

paper/protocol that she and Dr. Baker published from the best of my

knowledge. I think you might want to check this document before

doing it for dosage recommendations too from her standpoint-before

you decide what to do. There are also follow up posts on this in the

old messages most likely so that might be helpful too. With the

improved search feature you can find things much quicker now!

>

> Listmates,

>

> We are considering doing the vitamin A megadose. My understanding

from the

> ck2 files and posts on CSB is that the dose is 300,000 IUs per day

for 2

> days. I noticed a letter in the ck2 files section dated Dec 11,

2005 with

> the following note:

>

> " Dr. Megson told us she no longer does the 400,000 iu two day dose

of Vit A.

> The most she is now doing is 25,000 iu per day. Dr. Megson said

there is

> some concern with the possibility of the high dose of Vit A

mutating viruses

> in the body and creating something new. "

>

> This note is about a year old. Does anyone know if Dr. Megson

still does not

> follow the megadose protocol and what her current position is?

>

> Has Dr McCandless posted at all on Dr Megson's concern?

>

> Thanks for anyone that has info.

>

> L

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

.. Not Dr. JM by any means but I did a quick search of her posts

on this.... below are some posts and I think you can find more if

you'll do a search using " ADVANCED " that is located by the search

box.... it is quick and easy now to find all that someone has

written on a topic.. FINALLY Yahoo does something to make things

easy!

I am not giving the advice to stop but I'd read these and then look

a little more before giving a second dose. Both of these are in

response to Vitamin A related posts in the pasts...you will have to

read pretty far into the first one to find mention of nausea.

All the best,

Posts from Dr. JM in the past on Vitamin A:

I have already sent this with a note to Dr. Usman. Please

read carefully before embarking on this therapy. Dr. JM

CLARIFICATION ON THE VITAMIN A ISSUE

Sidney Mac Baker, M.D. and Jaquelyn McCandless, M.D.

Internet posting on an autism parent-support list has revealed some

potentially

harmful misunderstanding on some parents' part concerning the use of

Vitamin A.

The speculation that Vitamin A may benefit children with persistent

measles

vaccine virus problems as has been shown for hospitalized children

with acute

wild measles infections has led to some parents using the mega-

dosing regime

with or without medical supervision with variations of dosing and

agents. A

recent post from a parent who was giving mega-doses to her child for

4 days in a

row wanted to know if she should increase the dose even more, even

though her

child was showing alternating lethargy and hyperactivity, because he

hadn't yet

gotten what she called the " measles " rash. She stated that she had

gotten this

from another parent, who believed you would not have effectiveness

until you got

the rash. The parent was contacted immediately and told to stop all

Vitamin A,

and the list was given all pertinent information about the Vitamin A

issue.

(Her child is fine now). We felt it was important enough to alert

all of you in

the DAN! community of our position on this treatment.

Background: (Dr. Baker) In the spring of 2002, measles virus was

reliably

reported to be present in the spinal fluid of some autistic children

who had

previously demonstrated measles vaccine virus in the lymphoid tissue

of their

digestive tracts. The alarm of this finding increased our incentive

to come up

with ideas upon which well-informed parents might base safe private

decisions

for their children pending a shift in public policy to address the

measles virus

issue. The gap between the urgency of private decisions in regard to

this issue

and the resistance to the very idea on the part of those responsible

for public

policy suggested that it might be many years before speculations

about treatment

of individual children with atypical presence of MV might be

resolved by

research in groups of children.

Very high doses of vitamin A palmitate (400,000iu per day for two

consecutive

days) is the only measles specific treatment for children with

active acute

measles. This common childhood infection may involve a sometimes

fatal

inflammation of the lungs (pneumonia), inflammation of the brain

(encephalitis)

as well as other complications that befall very sick children. Other

anti-viral

treatments have not been shown to work in measles. A discussion at

the DAN!

Think Tank in May of 2002 in Boston led to a consensus that some

form of Vitamin

A treatment would be worthy of consideration. Guidelines for such

treatment

were published in Biomedical Assessment Options For Children with

Autism and

Related Problems, by Pangborn, J and Baker, SM, published by the

Autism Research

Institute, 4182 Avenue, San Diego, DA 92116 October 2002

Edition, pages

216-220.

The chronic nature of the possible measles problem in a subgroup of

children in

the autism spectrum led me (SMB) to consider that a lengthy

treatment that

pushed Vitamin A levels toward the high end of the safe range would

make sense

in that it answered the need of parents to observe their children

over a period

of a few weeks or longer to judge progress if any should occur and

it gave time

for monitoring a slow increase intake to avoid surprises of

toxicity. My own

experience with this approach in my patients did not yield positive

results.

Meanwhile Dr. McCandless, inspired by Binstock's and my

literature search

showing this to be effective in children with wild measles and also

as reported

from English parents with 2-day high dosing, began suggesting that

parents who

fit certain criteria might try the two-day protocol, followed by

maintenance

doses only for at least 6 months before doing any more mega-doses.

Her

preliminary clinical study of salivary secretory IgA rubeola

antibodies done

with Dr. Ari Vojdani at Immunosciences has revealed an elevated

level in 14 of

32 children tested. Those with very high levels were some of the best

responders to this protocol, and other positive feedback started

coming in from

parents doing the protocol. Another study is almost completed

checking both the

serum IgG rubeola antibody level as well as the secretory IgA

salivary antibody

level to see how these two correlate along with clinical assessment

and reports.

Seizing upon the positive implications of those reports and guided

by the

simplicity and safety of that approach (for which safety has been

documented in

studies of both well-nourished and undernourished children) I took

the position

that this approach might form the basis for clinical observations

that could

benefit children. Unfortunately, there are no generally available

tests to

reliably measure Vitamin A levels in the body; the assessment is

primarily

clinical observation. Signs of toxicity are a " scruffy " rash around

the neck,

headache, nausea, vomiting, lethargy, and excessive unusual

hyperactivity. The

few parents reporting whose children have shown any of these

responses have

stopped with no sequelae. Most reports have been very positive with

some

showing remarkable benefit. It is important to emphasize that this

is not a

treatment for autism generally (though the RDI is probably very low

for Vitamin

A) but only for those suspected of having measles in their systems.

The risks

at this time do not seem to be from the protocol itself, but from

misunderstandings such as related above. High doses should not be

given until a

skin rash is produced, for that is one sign of Vitamin A poisoning!

Based upon existing medical literature, two (2) days of high dose

vitamin A in

the range of 200,000-400,000iu of Vitamin A Palmitate is the only

way of

proceeding that appears to be safe. Any further exploration of high-

dose

Vitamin A therapy must be carried out with close medical

supervision. Based on

the belief that children with active measles in their gut or brain

are probably

low or depleted in Vitamin A, the criteria as outlined by Dr.

McCandless for her

patients for launching into this pilot study are three or more of

the following:

-History of regression after MMR (particularly in those children who

had an

immediate and strong negative reaction to the vaccine or booster).

-Persistent gut problems in spite of all recommended treatments.

-More than slightly elevated IgG serum rubeola levels.

-Elevated anti-myelin basic protein (MBP) and anti-neurofilament

antibodies

(indication of autoimmune reaction).

-Elevated secretory salivary rubeola IgA antibodies.

-Needless to say, endoscopy showing ileal lymphoid hyperplasia with

vaccine

strain measles by PCR, or measles in CSF studies.

Sidney M. Baker, M.D. Jaquelyn McCandless, M.D. 3/21/2004

> In a message dated 30/04/2005 20:06:01 GMT Standard Time,

> JMcCandless@... writes:

>

> Sam: Do not give any more of the Vitamin A; headache and nausea are

> possible signs of toxicity. Give him lots of fluids and forget any

other

> nutrients for now - he may have an unusual sensitivity; for his

weight I

> would have advised 400,000 (glad I didn't get time to post that).

All of

> these side effects that I have ever seen in our kids has been

totally

> reversible, and there is nothing to do but wait it out. And, there

is no

> good way to determine ahead of time who might have this

sensitivity.

Please

> keep us posted. Dr. JM

[Guest guest]

: Nausea can be from the gut or from central CNS origin, which is the one

we worry about. I doubt that the nausea is a CNS sign; it's just that that much

oily stuff can make some people feel sick. The signs I worry about are

lethargy, sleepiness, desire to sleep in the daytime when he usually is not

tired, complaint of headache, and of course a scruffy rash around his neck. Can

he tell you if his head hurts? If none of these are present and he seems OK in

the morning I would go ahead. I presume he has had the MMR, has high

auto-antibodies, has gut issues, and/or high rubeola titers? Has he been

scoped? What does your DAN! say? We know if the child has measles in the gut

they can handle huge doses of A - the virus just seems to eat it up. However,

please check him when you go to bed to make sure he can be roused, and use your

intuition as to how he seems in the morning. I feel if he had the apparently

very rare genetic defect that would not allow him to handle

a lot of A you would have seen more clear signs of toxicity when you gave him

300,000iu before. If you have doubts, better to be safe than sorry, and do not

continue. I have heard of only one child with A toxicity so far, and it was

reversible when A was stopped. However, I do not want your boy or anyone to

have that happen, even though it is highly unlikely. I presume you have read

the High-Dose info in the article on my website, www.starvingbrains.com? Keep

us posted. Dr. JM

john leon wrote: Dr McCandless,

Two years ago we tried one dose of the 300,000 IUs vitamin A and our son

threw up 9 hrs later. We decided not to do the 2nd day dose because we

thought throwing up may be a sign of vitamin A toxicity. Your opinion at the

time was it was most likely not a toxic vit A reaction.

Today we tried again. Our son was fine for several hours and then started

looking nauseated. Ironically enough, he threw up at the 9 hour mark again

just like 2 years ago. Based on what you indicated back then, we are

inclined to go ahead with the 2nd dose tomorrow.

My question is: If the throwing up is not really a vitamin A toxicity sign,

then what is causing it? Is this possibly a good " detox " sign that the

measles are under a major attack by the vitamin A? If so then a 2nd dose

would be a good thing and 25,000 IU maint. since it may be that he is loaded

with measles.

Your thoughts are appreciated,

L

Re: Re: Cross Post: Vitamin A Megadose Question

Please Help

: Thanks, you are correct - I still stand by the protocol of 400,000iu

a day (all at once) for 2 days every six months (or 300,000 for smaller

kids). I use Klaire's mycelized A at 5000iu per drop. I have had no problems

with many many parents doing this for years now. You would have to talk to

Megson about her idea of mutating viruses - I know nothing about that.

I routinely give all but tiny kids 25,000iu daily for maintenance in

addition to the bolus every 6 months if they still have gut problems

(nodular hyperplasia from measles doesn't go away very easily). Dr. JM

adoptinggrace <adoptinggrace@ <mailto:adoptinggrace%40mindspring.com>

mindspring.com> wrote:

.. I think Dr. McCandless just posted in recent days the Vitamin

A Protocol that she and Dr. Baker worked on...it is in the files of

CK2 also. That is still her opinion but don't know that she ever

posted anything on any difference of protocol opinion with Dr.

Megson. Different doctors have somewhat different approaches at

times to the same treatment and Dr. JM still stands by the

paper/protocol that she and Dr. Baker published from the best of my

knowledge. I think you might want to check this document before

doing it for dosage recommendations too from her standpoint-before

you decide what to do. There are also follow up posts on this in the

old messages most likely so that might be helpful too. With the

improved search feature you can find things much quicker now!

>

> Listmates,

>

> We are considering doing the vitamin A megadose. My understanding

from the

> ck2 files and posts on CSB is that the dose is 300,000 IUs per day

for 2

> days. I noticed a letter in the ck2 files section dated Dec 11,

2005 with

> the following note:

>

> " Dr. Megson told us she no longer does the 400,000 iu two day dose

of Vit A.

> The most she is now doing is 25,000 iu per day. Dr. Megson said

there is

> some concern with the possibility of the high dose of Vit A

mutating viruses

> in the body and creating something new. "

>

> This note is about a year old. Does anyone know if Dr. Megson

still does not

> follow the megadose protocol and what her current position is?

>

> Has Dr McCandless posted at all on Dr Megson's concern?

>

> Thanks for anyone that has info.

>

> L

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

& Ann,

I am really stumped on this megadose of vitamin A. The notes from below say

" Signs of toxicity are a " scruffy " rash around

the neck, headache, nausea, vomiting, lethargy, and excessive unusual

hyperactivity. The few parents reporting whose children have shown any of

these responses have stopped with no sequelae. "

JW has thrown up twice (9 and 10 hrs after the dose) and has had stomach

pains. Based on the notes from below, you would think we should not give the

2nd dose since he has had nausea and vomiting. But, I was hoping to hear

from Dr McCandless since the last time we did this 2 yrs ago she felt like

we could have given the 2nd dose after vomiting on the first dose. Maybe

nausea and vomiting without a scruffy rash and lethargy are ok since they

may just be signs of detox.

This is where my confusion comes in. He has thrown up twice. Is that

toxicity or detox? I do not know what to do about the 2nd dose tomorrow, but

I am leaning towards NOT giving it barring further clarification on the

toxicity signs above. I would hate to mis out on a full measles detox, but I

would rather be safe if I don't get clarification.

L

Re: Vitamin A Megadose: Some kind of reaction Good

or bad sign?

.. Not Dr. JM by any means but I did a quick search of her posts

on this.... below are some posts and I think you can find more if

you'll do a search using " ADVANCED " that is located by the search

box.... it is quick and easy now to find all that someone has

written on a topic.. FINALLY Yahoo does something to make things

easy!

I am not giving the advice to stop but I'd read these and then look

a little more before giving a second dose. Both of these are in

response to Vitamin A related posts in the pasts...you will have to

read pretty far into the first one to find mention of nausea.

All the best,

Posts from Dr. JM in the past on Vitamin A:

I have already sent this with a note to Dr. Usman. Please

read carefully before embarking on this therapy. Dr. JM

CLARIFICATION ON THE VITAMIN A ISSUE

Sidney Mac Baker, M.D. and Jaquelyn McCandless, M.D.

Internet posting on an autism parent-support list has revealed some

potentially

harmful misunderstanding on some parents' part concerning the use of

Vitamin A.

The speculation that Vitamin A may benefit children with persistent

measles

vaccine virus problems as has been shown for hospitalized children

with acute

wild measles infections has led to some parents using the mega-

dosing regime

with or without medical supervision with variations of dosing and

agents. A

recent post from a parent who was giving mega-doses to her child for

4 days in a

row wanted to know if she should increase the dose even more, even

though her

child was showing alternating lethargy and hyperactivity, because he

hadn't yet

gotten what she called the " measles " rash. She stated that she had

gotten this

from another parent, who believed you would not have effectiveness

until you got

the rash. The parent was contacted immediately and told to stop all

Vitamin A,

and the list was given all pertinent information about the Vitamin A

issue.

(Her child is fine now). We felt it was important enough to alert

all of you in

the DAN! community of our position on this treatment.

Background: (Dr. Baker) In the spring of 2002, measles virus was

reliably

reported to be present in the spinal fluid of some autistic children

who had

previously demonstrated measles vaccine virus in the lymphoid tissue

of their

digestive tracts. The alarm of this finding increased our incentive

to come up

with ideas upon which well-informed parents might base safe private

decisions

for their children pending a shift in public policy to address the

measles virus

issue. The gap between the urgency of private decisions in regard to

this issue

and the resistance to the very idea on the part of those responsible

for public

policy suggested that it might be many years before speculations

about treatment

of individual children with atypical presence of MV might be

resolved by

research in groups of children.

Very high doses of vitamin A palmitate (400,000iu per day for two

consecutive

days) is the only measles specific treatment for children with

active acute

measles. This common childhood infection may involve a sometimes

fatal

inflammation of the lungs (pneumonia), inflammation of the brain

(encephalitis)

as well as other complications that befall very sick children. Other

anti-viral

treatments have not been shown to work in measles. A discussion at

the DAN!

Think Tank in May of 2002 in Boston led to a consensus that some

form of Vitamin

A treatment would be worthy of consideration. Guidelines for such

treatment

were published in Biomedical Assessment Options For Children with

Autism and

Related Problems, by Pangborn, J and Baker, SM, published by the

Autism Research

Institute, 4182 Avenue, San Diego, DA 92116 October 2002

Edition, pages

216-220.

The chronic nature of the possible measles problem in a subgroup of

children in

the autism spectrum led me (SMB) to consider that a lengthy

treatment that

pushed Vitamin A levels toward the high end of the safe range would

make sense

in that it answered the need of parents to observe their children

over a period

of a few weeks or longer to judge progress if any should occur and

it gave time

for monitoring a slow increase intake to avoid surprises of

toxicity. My own

experience with this approach in my patients did not yield positive

results.

Meanwhile Dr. McCandless, inspired by Binstock's and my

literature search

showing this to be effective in children with wild measles and also

as reported

from English parents with 2-day high dosing, began suggesting that

parents who

fit certain criteria might try the two-day protocol, followed by

maintenance

doses only for at least 6 months before doing any more mega-doses.

Her

preliminary clinical study of salivary secretory IgA rubeola

antibodies done

with Dr. Ari Vojdani at Immunosciences has revealed an elevated

level in 14 of

32 children tested. Those with very high levels were some of the best

responders to this protocol, and other positive feedback started

coming in from

parents doing the protocol. Another study is almost completed

checking both the

serum IgG rubeola antibody level as well as the secretory IgA

salivary antibody

level to see how these two correlate along with clinical assessment

and reports.

Seizing upon the positive implications of those reports and guided

by the

simplicity and safety of that approach (for which safety has been

documented in

studies of both well-nourished and undernourished children) I took

the position

that this approach might form the basis for clinical observations

that could

benefit children. Unfortunately, there are no generally available

tests to

reliably measure Vitamin A levels in the body; the assessment is

primarily

clinical observation. Signs of toxicity are a " scruffy " rash around

the neck,

headache, nausea, vomiting, lethargy, and excessive unusual

hyperactivity. The

few parents reporting whose children have shown any of these

responses have

stopped with no sequelae. Most reports have been very positive with

some

showing remarkable benefit. It is important to emphasize that this

is not a

treatment for autism generally (though the RDI is probably very low

for Vitamin

A) but only for those suspected of having measles in their systems.

The risks

at this time do not seem to be from the protocol itself, but from

misunderstandings such as related above. High doses should not be

given until a

skin rash is produced, for that is one sign of Vitamin A poisoning!

Based upon existing medical literature, two (2) days of high dose

vitamin A in

the range of 200,000-400,000iu of Vitamin A Palmitate is the only

way of

proceeding that appears to be safe. Any further exploration of high-

dose

Vitamin A therapy must be carried out with close medical

supervision. Based on

the belief that children with active measles in their gut or brain

are probably

low or depleted in Vitamin A, the criteria as outlined by Dr.

McCandless for her

patients for launching into this pilot study are three or more of

the following:

-History of regression after MMR (particularly in those children who

had an

immediate and strong negative reaction to the vaccine or booster).

-Persistent gut problems in spite of all recommended treatments.

-More than slightly elevated IgG serum rubeola levels.

-Elevated anti-myelin basic protein (MBP) and anti-neurofilament

antibodies

(indication of autoimmune reaction).

-Elevated secretory salivary rubeola IgA antibodies.

-Needless to say, endoscopy showing ileal lymphoid hyperplasia with

vaccine

strain measles by PCR, or measles in CSF studies.

Sidney M. Baker, M.D. Jaquelyn McCandless, M.D. 3/21/2004

> In a message dated 30/04/2005 20:06:01 GMT Standard Time,

> JMcCandless@... writes:

>

> Sam: Do not give any more of the Vitamin A; headache and nausea are

> possible signs of toxicity. Give him lots of fluids and forget any

other

> nutrients for now - he may have an unusual sensitivity; for his

weight I

> would have advised 400,000 (glad I didn't get time to post that).

All of

> these side effects that I have ever seen in our kids has been

totally

> reversible, and there is nothing to do but wait it out. And, there

is no

> good way to determine ahead of time who might have this

sensitivity.

Please

> keep us posted. Dr. JM