Re: Recommended article - Cassandra and Apollo (Maxine Aston)

[Guest guest]

Hmm, it's interesting how very devisive this subject is.

I am sure that there have been 'maverick' people who have worked loosely in

professions, who whilst not research specialists, have made assertions about

conditions or problems that appear in common trends who have tried to move it

forwards. I know for example that it was years before Bipolar was considered as

a mainly biological condition, due to brain chemical imbalances, with the

genetic predisposition being passed through families, rather than a plain old

mental illness where the persons thinking was wrong. Think of all the stigma

that was placed on sufferers of this before our enlightened modern times.

I have done a bit of web reading around this, and there seems to be plenty of

very similar (almost scarily verbatim) arguments for and against Cassandra

dating back quite a few years. Interestingly, I can't find anywhere, where

people have said they are going to put in personal complaints, the actual

outcomes of those complaints. So either they didn't have enough concrete

evidence to put forward a complaint, or the complaint was duly considered by the

BACP or other relevant bodies (I am not up on this bit, in terms of which bodies

are whom)and then put to rest as not sufficient.

I would also guess that contention around this area not only sells the

asserters' books about Cassandra, but also those against, as they both appeal to

different sections of the market.

It does deeply concern me that there doesn't seem to be gender equality around

this area, and I plan to ask MA about this when I see her, provided there aren't

too many mirrors and smoke!

I also find it interesting that people are keen to assert that Aspergers and

higher functioning autism are specifically medical conditions, and in fact

disabilities, but when the Cassandra thing is brought up, this is often

abandoned in favour of talk about personality differences and how dissimilar

people should not enter into relationships. And the old fashioned talk of 'if

you can't hack it, get out'. Which then leads me to one of the main assertions

of Cassandra being that the so say NT person when in a relationship with an AS

person struggles in being taken seriously by their male partner in regard to

concerns about their relationship (Yep, it happened to me!) and also when trying

to talk to others not being heard, as I described in my original posts

responding to 's. I shan't bore you all with it again. My partner is

perceived by others as a good partner, he provides, he's perceived as a nice

guy, and sadly historically, when we were both in ignorance, he saved all the

crap for me, his life partner. I still don't advocate blame, but in a position

of ignorance, I was furious at him, once I had got past all my baggage in a bid

to be a better partner and not deserve all this 'crap'. Yet it continued. So I

began to wonder, is he in fact an abuser, is he a callous, control crazy, power

mad hater? Is he bunnies!! He's a nice person, who has problems that take him

beyond the realms of 'personality type' to being disabled. So, like lots of

people who choose to stay with their partners, Jon and I have had to work ways

around this and learn as much as possible to find what works for us.

So, back on again, it seems curious to me that there is such a strong reaction

to Cassandra, it's not just on the grounds of lacking scientific basis for the

assertion, but also becomes a much more vicious attack on the person. I suspect

it is down to a sense of BLAME. Some AS folk are feeling that they are being

blamed for a disability they can't help. And that's wrong. People shouldn't

feel blamed, and nor should they be blamed. However, a sense of being blamed or

attacked can sometimes pop up in those who are diagnosed with AS, apparently,

although I am not knowledgeable enough about all of this, just a ley person who

wants to be happy in my chosen relationship. It' certainly a feature of Jon's

problems.

Also, I don't think that it is something that is simply either in an AS/NT

relationship exclusively, or in other relationships as well, or all the time.

In personal experience of relationships, I never dealt with such complicated

issues as I have had to with Jon, because he clearly loves me, but in the dark

times, clearly couldn't help his behaviour either, causing such a confusion in

me, because part of me could see how confusing and upsetting it was to him as

well. So it was much harder to label him as the baddy, probably because he

isn't, well, he is at times, but frankly that's got little to do with AS!! As I

am also the baddy at times. So, I wonder if Cassandra perhaps is something that

is linked strongly, but not exclusively to relationships where one person is

diagnosed AS. And also we have to remember there are shades of this spectrum in

the population, still massively undiagnosed.

So I see Cassandra as one perspective or tool, that can help some relationships

mend and some hurt heal. I hate the idea of the workshops being for 'b!tching'

about partners or ex-partners. If this turns out to be the case I will be

making a lot of complaining myself, as this is deeply damaging. There are lots

of tools out there to help people cope with AS from different positions,some

work better than others, some are new, some have stood the test of time, some

are alternative, but all will be helpful to someone at some point.

Well done to for including a breadth of tools and links in the website,

which by the way is very interesting and informative, and I can see it's only

going to improve with vintage.

Will still let you know how the workshop goes....

These are all just personal observations from my personal perspective, and I do

need to read up on more, however I am not sure if I will ever have enough time

to specialise without relevant qualifications, so best I leave it to the pros

and the groundworkers too.

Take care, you lovely diverse people in this group, all so bright and with so

much to give, and I mean that with admiration, not patronisation. My mind is

peanuts compared to most of you!! That's why I had to marry an AS, I suspect,

to bring some IQ into my genetic flow!

[Guest guest]

> So, back on again, it seems curious to me that there is such a strong reaction

to Cassandra, it's not just on the grounds of lacking scientific basis for the

assertion, but also becomes a much more vicious attack on the person. I suspect

it is down to a sense of BLAME. Some AS folk are feeling that they are being

blamed for a disability they can't help.

I agree that perceived BLAME may be at the root of the problem. And

while Aspies can't change their neuro-wiring, they are a smart bunch and

they can learn adaptations that can create more opportunities for

themselves in the world.

I'm not convinced that many of the behaviors that are associated with AS

are carved in stone. With motivation and hard work, most Aspies can

moderate some of these behaviors, or at least smooth off the roughest of

edges.

Unfortunately, some Aspies are resistant to doing so, as their own

behaviors don't bother *them*. If their theory-of-mind deficits are

severe enough, they may not be able to appreciate the effect of their

actions on others. For some Aspies, their resistance is more a matter

of Principle, in that they may be unwilling to make behavioral changes

that, to them, symbolize conforming to the world of their NT oppressors.

While this resistant group claims not to care what others think of their

more extreme Aspie ways, it would seem that they do care a great deal

when one listens to them speak about their alienation, rejection, low

self-esteem, and loss of opportunities in life.

Best,

~CJ

[Guest guest]

A few small tangents on the Cassandra discussion:I don't think Maxine A invented (or claims to have invented) the term "Cassandra syndrome," although she may be the one who made it an AS thing. I was familiar with the idea long before I ever heard of AS/ASD, and Maxine's article seems to make it clear she got the idea from Shinoda Bolen. Wikipedia's article doesn't even seem aware of the Asperger's community's usage:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassandra_%28metaphor%29Issues of "inventing a medical syndrome" aside, the name "Cassandra syndrome" to describe a "NT-Partner Syndrome" kinda jars my literary sense. Personally, to me, the Cassandra myth doesn't seem like a good fit for the NT-Partner experience. "Cassandra" means the particular curse of not having your accurate

insights *believed* (whereas the NT-Partner thing seems more about not being (emotionally) *seen* or maybe "matched" or "met" or maybe "comprehended".). The only appropriately "Cassandra" experience that seems like a "match" to me is the one where your marriage counselor doesn't believe you that your partner has a communication disorder. "Cassandra moments" may be a part of the the NT-partner experience, but "Cassandra" just doesn't seem like the right name overall to define it.Another history note: FAAAS says they come up with the idea of a "partner's syndrome" in 1997, but the name for it has shifted over time:http://faaas.org/otrscp/-- Sharon, lurking NT-but-geeky wife with minor special interests in Greek mythology and the history of social movements

[Guest guest]

A few small tangents on the Cassandra discussion:I don't think Maxine A invented (or claims to have invented) the term "Cassandra syndrome," although she may be the one who made it an AS thing. I was familiar with the idea long before I ever heard of AS/ASD, and Maxine's article seems to make it clear she got the idea from Shinoda Bolen. Wikipedia's article doesn't even seem aware of the Asperger's community's usage:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassandra_%28metaphor%29Issues of "inventing a medical syndrome" aside, the name "Cassandra syndrome" to describe a "NT-Partner Syndrome" kinda jars my literary sense. Personally, to me, the Cassandra myth doesn't seem like a good fit for the NT-Partner experience. "Cassandra" means the particular curse of not having your accurate

insights *believed* (whereas the NT-Partner thing seems more about not being (emotionally) *seen* or maybe "matched" or "met" or maybe "comprehended".). The only appropriately "Cassandra" experience that seems like a "match" to me is the one where your marriage counselor doesn't believe you that your partner has a communication disorder. "Cassandra moments" may be a part of the the NT-partner experience, but "Cassandra" just doesn't seem like the right name overall to define it.Another history note: FAAAS says they come up with the idea of a "partner's syndrome" in 1997, but the name for it has shifted over time:http://faaas.org/otrscp/-- Sharon, lurking NT-but-geeky wife with minor special interests in Greek mythology and the history of social movements

[Guest guest]

Issues of

"inventing a medical syndrome" aside, the name "Cassandra

syndrome" to describe a "NT-Partner Syndrome" kinda jars my

literary sense. Personally, to me, the Cassandra myth doesn't

seem like a good fit for the NT-Partner experience. "Cassandra"

means the particular curse of not having your accurate insights

*believed* (whereas the NT-Partner thing seems more about not

being (emotionally) *seen* or maybe "matched" or "met" or maybe

"comprehended".). The only appropriately "Cassandra" experience

that seems like a "match" to me is the one where your marriage

counselor doesn't believe you that your partner has a

communication disorder. "Cassandra moments" may be a part of

the the NT-partner experience, but "Cassandra" just doesn't seem

like the right name overall to define it.

I think the phenomenon of NT partners not having their insights

believed by those outside the family is what gave rise to the

Cassandra label. The label then began to encompass the emotional

fallout resulting from this crazy-making experience, along with the

other relationship issues surrounding it.

For me, the label is as good as any, as no label is a perfect fit.

But then, I'm not one of those hyper-literal Aspies, who expects

100% congruence in this area.

Best,

~CJ

[Guest guest]

Issues of

"inventing a medical syndrome" aside, the name "Cassandra

syndrome" to describe a "NT-Partner Syndrome" kinda jars my

literary sense. Personally, to me, the Cassandra myth doesn't

seem like a good fit for the NT-Partner experience. "Cassandra"

means the particular curse of not having your accurate insights

*believed* (whereas the NT-Partner thing seems more about not

being (emotionally) *seen* or maybe "matched" or "met" or maybe

"comprehended".). The only appropriately "Cassandra" experience

that seems like a "match" to me is the one where your marriage

counselor doesn't believe you that your partner has a

communication disorder. "Cassandra moments" may be a part of

the the NT-partner experience, but "Cassandra" just doesn't seem

like the right name overall to define it.

I think the phenomenon of NT partners not having their insights

believed by those outside the family is what gave rise to the

Cassandra label. The label then began to encompass the emotional

fallout resulting from this crazy-making experience, along with the

other relationship issues surrounding it.

For me, the label is as good as any, as no label is a perfect fit.

But then, I'm not one of those hyper-literal Aspies, who expects

100% congruence in this area.

Best,

~CJ