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Re: Verum vs. placebo, German to English TERM

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Not " investigated product " , but " investigational agent " , OR BETTER " ACTIVE

agent " . Please note that for EN-speaking people, " product " refers to commercial

production, while " agent " refers to pharmacology, which is the main topic here,

isn't it.

Catherinr

Re: Verum vs. placebo, German to English TERM

Verum is not used in English. You can use " study drug " or " study medication "

or " investigated product " .

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Hello

I agree with your suggestion of " investigational " but in the context of eg

clinical trials, " product " is still OK. EMEA refers to " investigational

medicinal products " . The " product " is not necessarily the commercial

version, it's just the pharmaceutical form of the active agent/ingredient.

All the best

Owen

At 17:14 18/10/2008 +0200, you wrote:

>Not " investigated product " , but " investigational agent " , OR BETTER " ACTIVE

agent " . Please note that for EN-speaking people, " product " refers to

commercial production, while " agent " refers to pharmacology, which is the

main topic here, isn't it.

>Catherinr

> Re: Verum vs. placebo, German to English TERM

>

>

> Verum is not used in English. You can use " study drug " or " study

medication "

> or " investigated product " .

>

> **************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your

destination.

> Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out

> (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000002)

>

>

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The problem is that I really need one snappy word in English, as it

occurs in combinations such as verum vs. placebo meal, verum vs.

placebo administration, what have you.

Saying, e.g., a study drug meal or active agent meal just does not

ring right, IMO.

What can we do about this?

Thankee,

YR

> >Not " investigated product " , but " investigational agent " , OR BETTER

" ACTIVE

> agent " . Please note that for EN-speaking people, " product " refers to

> commercial production, while " agent " refers to pharmacology, which

is the

> main topic here, isn't it.

> >Catherinr

> > Re: Verum vs. placebo, German to English TERM

> >

> >

> > Verum is not used in English. You can use " study drug " or " study

> medication "

> > or " investigated product " .

> >

> > **************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your

> destination.

> > Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out

> > (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000002)

> >

> >

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Agree.

How about active drug/active agent?

> Verum is not used in English. You can use " study drug " or " study

> medication "

> or " investigated product " .

>

> **************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your

> destination.

> Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out

> (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000002)

>

>

>

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Absolutely.

> I agree with your suggestion of " investigational " but in the context of eg

> clinical trials, " product " is still OK. EMEA refers to " investigational

> medicinal products " . The " product " is not necessarily the commercial

> version, it's just the pharmaceutical form of the active agent/ingredient.

>

> All the best

>

> Owen

>

> At 17:14 18/10/2008 +0200, you wrote:

>>Not " investigated product " , but " investigational agent " , OR BETTER

>> " ACTIVE

> agent " . Please note that for EN-speaking people, " product " refers to

> commercial production, while " agent " refers to pharmacology, which is the

> main topic here, isn't it.

>>Catherinr

>> Re: Verum vs. placebo, German to English TERM

>>

>>

>> Verum is not used in English. You can use " study drug " or " study

> medication "

>> or " investigated product " .

>>

>> **************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your

> destination.

>> Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out

>> (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000002)

>>

>>

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That's life, Yngve ;-)

You get this quite a lot in both directions - the G is snappy, the E

isn't, and vice versa.

Personally, I see no problem with active agent meal at all.

FWIW

> The problem is that I really need one snappy word in English, as it

> occurs in combinations such as verum vs. placebo meal, verum vs.

> placebo administration, what have you.

>

> Saying, e.g., a study drug meal or active agent meal just does not

> ring right, IMO.

>

> What can we do about this?

>

> Thankee,

>

> YR

>

>

>> >Not " investigated product " , but " investigational agent " , OR BETTER

> " ACTIVE

>> agent " . Please note that for EN-speaking people, " product " refers to

>> commercial production, while " agent " refers to pharmacology, which

> is the

>> main topic here, isn't it.

>> >Catherinr

>> > Re: Verum vs. placebo, German to English TERM

>> >

>> >

>> > Verum is not used in English. You can use " study drug " or " study

>> medication "

>> > or " investigated product " .

>> >

>> > **************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your

>> destination.

>> > Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out

>> > (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000002)

>> >

>> >

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Not sure where you are getting this from. I translate scads of American

and British protocols, and have never come across such an 'international

rule' - in fact, I can count on one hand the number of occurrences of

'active vs placebo' I have seen in hundreds of such protocols.

There is no 'must' about italicising versus; at most, it's elegant

typestting. It's becoming established in English, and is very often left

in ordinary type.

> In such sentences, as the examples you gave one minute ago, just write :

> active vs placebo. That's the international rule. You may specify " active

> treatment versus placebo " . Please note that " versus " being a Latin word,

> it must

> be typed in italics.

>

> Re: Verum vs. placebo, German to English TERM

> > >

> > >

> > > Verum is not used in English. You can use " study drug " or " study

> > medication "

> > > or " investigated product " .

> > >

> > > **************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your

> > destination.

> > > Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out

> > > (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000002)

> > >

> > >

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In such sentences, as the examples you gave one minute ago, just write : active

vs placebo. That's the international rule. You may specify " active treatment

versus placebo " . Please note that " versus " being a Latin word, it must

be typed in italics.

Re: Verum vs. placebo, German to English TERM

> >

> >

> > Verum is not used in English. You can use " study drug " or " study

> medication "

> > or " investigated product " .

> >

> > **************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your

> destination.

> > Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out

> > (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000002)

> >

> >

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Dear ,

What is " italicising " (what a new fantastic word !!) ? We are not speaking of

the Italian or French Renaissance, which was not even " Italian " , because Italy

was created only in 1861 (please refer to Camilo Benso, Earl of Cavour). We are

speaking Latin !!!

.

Re: Verum vs. placebo, German to English TERM

> > >

> > >

> > > Verum is not used in English. You can use " study drug " or " study

> > medication "

> > > or " investigated product " .

> > >

> > > **************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your

> > destination.

> > > Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out

> > > (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000002)

> > >

> > >

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Not sure whether you are being serious or joking (presumably the latter),

but italicising means writing something in italics ;-)

> Dear ,

> What is " italicising " (what a new fantastic word !!) ? We are not speaking

> of the Italian or French Renaissance, which was not even " Italian " ,

> because Italy was created only in 1861 (please refer to Camilo Benso, Earl

> of Cavour). We are speaking Latin !!!

> .

> Re: Verum vs. placebo, German to English TERM

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Verum is not used in English. You can use " study drug " or " study

> > > medication "

> > > > or " investigated product " .

> > > >

> > > > **************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your

> > > destination.

> > > > Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out

> > > > (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000002)

> > > >

> > > >

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Hello Yngve

Although the most common usage seems to be " [named drug/product] vs

placebo " , " active vs placebo " is reasonably common, and o are " active drug

vs placebo " , " study drug vs placebo " , " investigational drug vs placebo " ,

" active product vs placebo " - I think you're free to choose what fits your

context best as long as you don't have a particular model to follow.

All the best

Owen

At 17:06 18/10/2008 +0100, you wrote:

>Not sure where you are getting this from. I translate scads of American

>and British protocols, and have never come across such an 'international

>rule' - in fact, I can count on one hand the number of occurrences of

>'active vs placebo' I have seen in hundreds of such protocols.

>

>There is no 'must' about italicising versus; at most, it's elegant

>typestting. It's becoming established in English, and is very often left

>in ordinary type.

>

>

>

>> In such sentences, as the examples you gave one minute ago, just write :

>> active vs placebo. That's the international rule. You may specify " active

>> treatment versus placebo " . Please note that " versus " being a Latin word,

>> it must

>> be typed in italics.

>>

>> Re: Verum vs. placebo, German to English TERM

>> > >

>> > >

>> > > Verum is not used in English. You can use " study drug " or " study

>> > medication "

>> > > or " investigated product " .

>> > >

>> > > **************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your

>> > destination.

>> > > Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out

>> > > (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000002)

>> > >

>> > >

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Sincerely, dear , I was not joking at all, because I didn't imagin only one

second that we were speaking of " italics " when the terms were obviously coming

from Latin (i.e. from the Ancient Italy). Sorry for this mistake.

Re: Verum vs. placebo, German to English TERM

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Verum is not used in English. You can use " study drug " or " study

> > > medication "

> > > > or " investigated product " .

> > > >

> > > > **************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your

> > > destination.

> > > > Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out

> > > > (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000002)

> > > >

> > > >

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Too esoteric for me ;)

Anyway, thanks a bunch for all the input.

YR

> > > > >Not " investigated product " , but " investigational agent " ,

OR BETTER

> > > " ACTIVE

> > > > agent " . Please note that for EN-speaking people, " product "

refers to

> > > > commercial production, while " agent " refers to

pharmacology, which

> > > is the

> > > > main topic here, isn't it.

> > > > >Catherinr

> > > > > Re: Verum vs. placebo, German to English

TERM

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Verum is not used in English. You can use " study drug " or

" study

> > > > medication "

> > > > > or " investigated product " .

> > > > >

> > > > > **************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening

at your

> > > > destination.

> > > > > Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out

> > > > > (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000002)

> > > > >

> > > > >

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's right ; there's no " rule " for italicising Latin loan words

in BE, they're an accepted part of the language.

Andy

G Bell, MITI, ATA, AUSIT, RN

Translator, Project Manager, Creative input

Cell: +61(0)4 07 38 66 82

T/F: +61(0)8 98 44 11 15

URL: <http://www.scandinaviantranslations.org/>

www.scandinaviantranslations.org

Email:

andytrans@...

Skype: andytrans

GMT: +7

<skype:andytrans?userinfo>

_____

From: medical_translation

[mailto:medical_translation ] On Behalf Of cgtradmed

Sent: Sunday, 19 October 2008 1:49 AM

To: medical_translation

Subject: Re: Verum vs. placebo, German to English TERM

Sincerely, dear , I was not joking at all, because I didn't imagin only

one second that we were speaking of " italics " when the terms were obviously

coming from Latin (i.e. from the Ancient Italy). Sorry for this mistake.

Re: Verum vs. placebo, German to English TERM

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Verum is not used in English. You can use " study drug " or " study

> > > medication "

> > > > or " investigated product " .

> > > >

> > > > **************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your

> > > destination.

> > > > Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out

> > > > (http://local. <http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000002>

mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000002)

> > > >

> > > >

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Yngve R. wrote:

> The problem is that I really need one snappy word in English, as it occurs

in combinations such as verum vs. placebo meal, verum vs. placebo

administration, what have you. <

__________

Hello Yngve.

I guess that " verum " here is the latin word meaning " true " . I " googled " <

placebo verum >, and I got about 20,000 hits in English, about 10,000 in

German about 5,000 in Italian, many hundreds in French. They are links to

pages where verum is opposed to placebo. Then you probably can use " verum " .

Otherwise, the character of the administration is usually stated. For

example, if you are testing a fat-free diet, then you'll have " fat-free vs

placebo meal " , and so on. Since you mention " meals " , I guess your text is

about testing single foods or some sort of diet or additives/preservatives

-- not drugs. In general, I would go with expressions along the line of:

" tested-food containing vs placebo meals " ; " tested food vs placebo

administration " ; " additive-containing vs placebo meals " , et similia. If your

text deals with drugs, then it's easier, and you have already received

suggestions. [i do not recommend " active vs placebo " , since it sounds like

sort of jumping to results.]

Just MHO,

Giovanna Z.

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Not drugs, they are cross-reacting allergens - so you are suggesting

that active agent is less preferable than verum? I guess placebo

refers to meals without these allergens, but I've now forgotten the

contexts. although it is kinda important, as these articles are meant

for publication.

Regards,

YR

and

> > The problem is that I really need one snappy word in English, as

it occurs

> in combinations such as verum vs. placebo meal, verum vs. placebo

> administration, what have you. <

> __________

>

> Hello Yngve.

>

> I guess that " verum " here is the latin word meaning " true " . I

" googled " <

> placebo verum >, and I got about 20,000 hits in English, about

10,000 in

> German about 5,000 in Italian, many hundreds in French. They are

links to

> pages where verum is opposed to placebo. Then you probably can use

" verum " .

> Otherwise, the character of the administration is usually stated.

For

> example, if you are testing a fat-free diet, then you'll have " fat-

free vs

> placebo meal " , and so on. Since you mention " meals " , I guess your

text is

> about testing single foods or some sort of diet or additives/

preservatives

> -- not drugs. In general, I would go with expressions along the

line of:

> " tested-food containing vs placebo meals " ; " tested food vs placebo

> administration " ; " additive-containing vs placebo meals " , et

similia. If your

> text deals with drugs, then it's easier, and you have already

received

> suggestions. [i do not recommend " active vs placebo " , since it

sounds like

> sort of jumping to results.]

>

> Just MHO,

> Giovanna Z.

>

>

>

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Let me correct that, it was probably drugs, rather than allergens,

although that was the subject of the article. I am just in a

different space right now, i.e., another language combination :)

Regards,

YR

> > > The problem is that I really need one snappy word in English,

as

> it occurs

> > in combinations such as verum vs. placebo meal, verum vs. placebo

> > administration, what have you. <

> > __________

> >

> > Hello Yngve.

> >

> > I guess that " verum " here is the latin word meaning " true " . I

> " googled " <

> > placebo verum >, and I got about 20,000 hits in English, about

> 10,000 in

> > German about 5,000 in Italian, many hundreds in French. They are

> links to

> > pages where verum is opposed to placebo. Then you probably can

use

> " verum " .

> > Otherwise, the character of the administration is usually stated.

> For

> > example, if you are testing a fat-free diet, then you'll have

" fat-

> free vs

> > placebo meal " , and so on. Since you mention " meals " , I guess your

> text is

> > about testing single foods or some sort of diet or additives/

> preservatives

> > -- not drugs. In general, I would go with expressions along the

> line of:

> > " tested-food containing vs placebo meals " ; " tested food vs placebo

> > administration " ; " additive-containing vs placebo meals " , et

> similia. If your

> > text deals with drugs, then it's easier, and you have already

> received

> > suggestions. [i do not recommend " active vs placebo " , since it

> sounds like

> > sort of jumping to results.]

> >

> > Just MHO,

> > Giovanna Z.

> >

> >

> >

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I can't agree that 'active' is jumping to conclusions. 'Active agent' is a

perfectly standard term, and all it means is that the tablet (or whatever)

contains something whose effect is being studied. 99% of the time it is

active anyway, and it is simply the level of activitity (efficacy) that is

investigated, often in conjunction with safety. But even if it's a

substance that may turn out to have no effect whatsoever - and that's

quite rare nowadays - active agent is a std term.

I haven't seen verum more than twice in a great many years of doing this

stuff.

FWIW

> Not drugs, they are cross-reacting allergens - so you are suggesting

> that active agent is less preferable than verum? I guess placebo

> refers to meals without these allergens, but I've now forgotten the

> contexts. although it is kinda important, as these articles are meant

> for publication.

>

> Regards,

> YR

>

> and

>> > The problem is that I really need one snappy word in English, as

> it occurs

>> in combinations such as verum vs. placebo meal, verum vs. placebo

>> administration, what have you. <

>> __________

>>

>> Hello Yngve.

>>

>> I guess that " verum " here is the latin word meaning " true " . I

> " googled " <

>> placebo verum >, and I got about 20,000 hits in English, about

> 10,000 in

>> German about 5,000 in Italian, many hundreds in French. They are

> links to

>> pages where verum is opposed to placebo. Then you probably can use

> " verum " .

>> Otherwise, the character of the administration is usually stated.

> For

>> example, if you are testing a fat-free diet, then you'll have " fat-

> free vs

>> placebo meal " , and so on. Since you mention " meals " , I guess your

> text is

>> about testing single foods or some sort of diet or additives/

> preservatives

>> -- not drugs. In general, I would go with expressions along the

> line of:

>> " tested-food containing vs placebo meals " ; " tested food vs placebo

>> administration " ; " additive-containing vs placebo meals " , et

> similia. If your

>> text deals with drugs, then it's easier, and you have already

> received

>> suggestions. [i do not recommend " active vs placebo " , since it

> sounds like

>> sort of jumping to results.]

>>

>> Just MHO,

>> Giovanna Z.

>>

>>

>>

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Yngwe wrote:

> Not drugs, they are cross-reacting allergens - so you are suggesting that

active agent is less preferable than verum? I guess placebo refers to meals

without these allergens, but I've now forgotten the contexts. although it is

kinda important, as these articles are meant for publication. <

______________

So it's about food allergens.

I'm suggesting that you _do not_ call " active " a substance, if you are

trying to determine whether it is active. Similarly, you don't call

" allergen " a food if you are trying to determine whether it is in fact an

allergen.

The rest of the answer depends on what your text is about and exactly tells.

Are we talking about common food allergens or are we talking about

substances under investigation to know whether they are allergenic in

studied patients?

Yes, it's... " kinda important " .

GZ

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wrote:

> I can't agree that 'active' is jumping to conclusions. <

I'm not saying that " active " should not be used in _any_ case. I wrote:

" I'm suggesting that you _do not_ call " active " a substance, if you are

trying to determine whether it is active. "

Honestly, is my assertion worth a discussion?

> 'Active agent' is a perfectly standard term, and all it means is that the

tablet (or whatever) contains something whose effect is being studied. 99%

of the time it is active anyway, and it is simply the level of activitity

(efficacy) that is investigated, often in conjunction with safety. <

Then, most of the time I would be on your side, calling the substance an

" active agent " , while in the remote event (1% ? less? never mind) that the

presence of a given activity is under evaluation, I would rather say

" candidate drug " / " experimental substance " , or something along this line. I'm

sure you would find a more elegant solution, but there's no need to call it

" active " . Or, rather, if you call it an active agent, well... I don't.

> But even if it's a substance that may turn out to have no effect

whatsoever - and that's quite rare nowadays - active agent is a std term. <

I wouldn't recommend an improper use of the term, if there is a reasonable

alternative, which thing I was trying to understand. But... We don't know

exactly what we are talking about, and this is a point. Is the article about

drugs or food allergens? (Even Yngwe doesn't know!) Since Yngwe has

mentioned " meals " , double blind trials to test food intolerance came to

mind. In _such_ case, " active " would be improper, definitely, since the

trial is aimed at determining what foods are " active " (i.e. not tolerated).

> I haven't seen verum more than twice in a great many years of doing this

stuff. <

Neither have I, but maybe we haven't read all that has been written. There

is a strong possibility that in a great many years of doing this stuff, I

have read reports and articles about single substances, where the very name

of the substance was sistematically used, rather than " verum " , whose meaning

is just " non placebo " substance/treatment.

What I know is that verum gets around 20 thousands hits with a google

search. Not particularly common, not extremely rare. In my quick google

search, I noticed that many (not all) of the web pages dealt with

homeopathy, acupuncture, and other so-called alternative medicines. Maybe

the term " verum " is more commonly used in such field, in which I'm not

expert at all. Again, I ignore the content of the article that Yngwe is

translating. I do not assume that it reflects the stuff that I usually

translate!

I've found this in a dictionary of cancer terms of the Natl. Cancer Inst.

(USA):

http://www.cancer.gov/Templates/db_alpha.aspx?CdrID=446561

" investigational drug

A substance that has been tested in a laboratory and has gotten approval

from the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) to be tested in people. ...

Also called experimental drug. "

It's a very specific definition, and I ignore whether the term applies to

Yngwe case. If " investigational drug " and " active agent " reveal to be

unsuitable in this case, yes, I would consider using " verum " . It's up to

Yngwe to choose the best equivalent.

FWIW,

Giovanna

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Well, here is a bit of context for you. I hope you understand German:

Stellenwert der oralen Provokation:

.....doppelblinde, plazebokontrollierte Provokation mit nativem

allergenen Nahrungsmittel in zwei Stufen...

Der Abstand zwischen _Verum- und Plazebogabe_ beträgt dabei 24 h

This articles was already published in German, so this is in the

public domain.

i.e., oral provocation tests with verum and placebo administration or

alternatively administration of " active agent and placebo "

Seems like with allergen provocation versus silent provocation, verum

could be the right term.

Again, I am just asking for advice.

--YR

> " I'm suggesting that you _do not_ call " active " a substance, if you

are

> trying to determine whether it is active. "

> Honestly, is my assertion worth a discussion?

>

> > 'Active agent' is a perfectly standard term, and all it means is

that the

> tablet (or whatever) contains something whose effect is being

studied. 99%

> of the time it is active anyway, and it is simply the level of

activitity

> (efficacy) that is investigated, often in conjunction with safety. <

>

> Then, most of the time I would be on your side, calling the

substance an

> " active agent " , while in the remote event (1% ? less? never mind)

that the

> presence of a given activity is under evaluation, I would rather say

> " candidate drug " / " experimental substance " , or something along this

line. I'm

> sure you would find a more elegant solution, but there's no need to

call it

> " active " . Or, rather, if you call it an active agent, well... I

don't.

>

> > But even if it's a substance that may turn out to have no effect

> whatsoever - and that's quite rare nowadays - active agent is a std

term. <

>

> I wouldn't recommend an improper use of the term, if there is a

reasonable

> alternative, which thing I was trying to understand. But... We

don't know

> exactly what we are talking about, and this is a point. Is the

article about

> drugs or food allergens? (Even Yngwe doesn't know!) Since Yngwe has

> mentioned " meals " , double blind trials to test food intolerance

came to

> mind. In _such_ case, " active " would be improper, definitely, since

the

> trial is aimed at determining what foods are " active " (i.e. not

tolerated).

>

> > I haven't seen verum more than twice in a great many years of

doing this

> stuff. <

>

> Neither have I, but maybe we haven't read all that has been

written. There

> is a strong possibility that in a great many years of doing this

stuff, I

> have read reports and articles about single substances, where the

very name

> of the substance was sistematically used, rather than " verum " ,

whose meaning

> is just " non placebo " substance/treatment.

>

> What I know is that verum gets around 20 thousands hits with a

google

> search. Not particularly common, not extremely rare. In my quick

google

> search, I noticed that many (not all) of the web pages dealt with

> homeopathy, acupuncture, and other so-called alternative medicines.

Maybe

> the term " verum " is more commonly used in such field, in which I'm

not

> expert at all. Again, I ignore the content of the article that

Yngwe is

> translating. I do not assume that it reflects the stuff that I

usually

> translate!

>

> I've found this in a dictionary of cancer terms of the Natl. Cancer

Inst.

> (USA):

> http://www.cancer.gov/Templates/db_alpha.aspx?CdrID=446561

> " investigational drug

> A substance that has been tested in a laboratory and has gotten

approval

> from the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) to be tested in

people. ...

> Also called experimental drug. "

>

> It's a very specific definition, and I ignore whether the term

applies to

> Yngwe case. If " investigational drug " and " active agent " reveal to

be

> unsuitable in this case, yes, I would consider using " verum " . It's

up to

> Yngwe to choose the best equivalent.

>

> FWIW,

> Giovanna

>

>

>

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Yngve wrote:

> Well, here is a bit of context for you. I hope you understand German: <

___________________

I'm sorry Yngve, I don't speak any German at all.

I'm sure you'll make a good decision.

Giovanna

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