Re: Re: The quirky nature of AF

[Guest guest]

Thank you very much for your kind comments!!

I agree with your analogy about the " AF mind " , for it does appear there is a

close link between the mind and AF; This is certainly not to say that AF is

psychological in nature at all, but given what I feel is the inevitable link

between AF and the field of neurology, it wouldnt be surprising if in fact

some type of cognitive feedback loop, conscious or subconscious, acts as a

trigger in scheduling AF episodes.

To those of us who experience AF upon resting, or just after strenuous

exercise, which is prima facie evidence of vagal nerve involvement, its no

wonder that even thoughts which involve relaxation can provoke an episode;

It seems like the body can develop such a hypersensitive response to a

" hypertonic " vagal nerve that neural circuits can be developed in the brain

which will further trigger vagally induced AF;

In addition, if the parasympathethic nervous system, as represented by

the vagal nerve can be out of balance, there probably is a strong

sympathethic nervous system imbalance or hypersensitivity as well. Hence,

the proverbial chicken and egg question of what comes first, the overly

active vagal nerve, or the cardiac nerve (sympathetic nervous system); It

could be, and this is pure speculation, that if the vagal nerve becomes

progressively dominant, then that accounts for the progressive nature of AF

itself. After a while, almost ANY sympathethic stimulation provokes a

hyperactive vagal nerve response to the heart, triggering an episode;

This would account for the intuitive feeling that I have, that over time,

my range of comfort, that level of intensity which my heart will tolerate

before palpitating or fibrillating or have extra beats, gets narrower and

narrower; This would also explain permanent AF, since over time, the vagal

nerve becomes so completely dominant that even normal sympathetic

stimulation triggers AF, and over time, the atriums become electrically

restructured for permanent AF;

Re: The quirky nature of AF

>

> , when I still had AF, and before I ever read a AF message

> Board, I always said that my AF had a mind of it's own. It was my

> idea that the AF mind knew how many hour a year it was going to be

> present in my life. Over the last 5 years before I had the Maze,

> (until just before the maze when I became near chronic), I would

> average a episode every 2 weeks for 4 to 8 hrs. each. I could predict

> with + or - one day when I would have the next episode. If I had a

> very short episode, I might have another episode within a few days,

> and if I had a extra long episode, I might run a few days over 2

> weeks.

> I had Lone Paroxysmal AF from my teens until age 64, and took

> medication for it for about 30 years. I have been in NSR now for 31

> months and it is great.

> , I no longer have AF, but read the board every day, and am

> administrator of MAZE ALUMNI, and want to thank you for the

> contributions that you give to the board.

>

>

> > I have noticed that regarding atrial fibrillation, the triggers for

> an

> > episode will vary over time; Of course not all of us have the same

> type of

> > AF or the same causes, but perhaps someone can relate to my

> situation;

> > I find that what triggers an AF episode, or near episode one

> time, will

> > not trigger it the next; For example, there have been times when

> consuming

> > alcohol clearly is the culprit; Other times, drinking a white wine

> will have

> > no impact at all, and in fact seems to help; Sometimes, drinking

> caffeine

> > will trigger AF, other times it will not; Sometimes, having sexual

> relations

> > will trigger AF, other times, it will not. Sometimes, exercise will

> trigger

> > it, other times not; Sometimes taking beta blockers seem to

> prevent an

> > episode, other times it seems to play a role in triggering one.

> > Does anyone else notice the rather quirky and unpredictable

> nature of

> > AF? For the past year, I have been mentally talking to myself about

> this and

> > always end up saying to myself " AF is a quirky neurological

> syndrome " ; At

> > times, it almost seems to be a part of ones conscious mind, to have

> an

> > intelligence all its own.

> > There have been times when I have been free from AF for weeks

> after doing

> > all the " wrong " things like drinking alcohol, caffeine, high

> stress, eating

> > late at night etc; Other times, the slightest amount of stress will

> trigger

> > an AF problem for weeks, and then I cant do anything beyond taking

> my meds

> > and almost becoming an invalid.

> > Can anyone relate??

>

>

>

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>

[Guest guest]

How true!! In a way, all of us AF patients are part of the solution, since

it is we who have the most interest in finding the disparate causes and

treatments for this malady. I think that my biggest complaint regarding the

medical profession is that many physicians lack the intellectual curiousity

needed to fight AF (and other disease states as well);

Life is difficult and unfair, but it would help to have more researchers

involved in this effort.

Re: The quirky nature of AF

> ,

> I can closely relate to all you and others have to say on this topic .

> I find I am always wanting to have a ' theory on the go ' that will

> explain my PAF .

> For years my Cardiologist put me off by saying that AF episodes were

> due to 'clapped out 'heart muscles and that episodes would become

> more frequent as time passed . Well episodes did become more frequent

> and he was correct on that score but these days he has quietly

> stopped saying anything about clapped out heart muscles . Today he

> simply says he doesn't know.

> I know that three glasses of wine will send me into AF and one glass

> will probably be okay .

> I have been down the magnesium trail with great expectations only to

> have my hopes dashed .

> I have examined the case against amalgams and in my view the evidence

> did not stack up 'in my case' . More dashed hopes .

> Currently I am examining the AF /Thyroid connection .

> I posed this question to four doctors : Can one return a normal

> thyroid function test and still have a problem with the thyroid ?

> Two said 'probably no' and two said yes .

> So I am currently exploring this new track . I am aware that in order

> to get new answers one has to conjecture new questions . These are

> not silly questions but questions based on experience .

> This new track judged in the light of my recent history may be a

> blind alley too ! However I believe that all the time I am broadening

> my understanding in an area in which even the experts are not sure in

> which direction they should be looking .

> I know that my PAF is cyclical and that once I am in it no matter

> what I do , I will not revert for at least seven or eight hours .

> After and only after seven or eight hours have elapsed and seemingly

> the AF has 'settled down ' to some degree , I know that a walk of up

> to forty minutes will nearly always bring about reversion to NSR .

> That exercise will in certain cicumstances bring about reversion was

> 'news 'for my Cardiologist . Good and useful ideas can come from

> 'anywhere' ( of course they still have to be subject to close

> scrutiny and tested ) and this surely is one reason among many why

> this support group is so popular .

> Tom

>

>

>

> -- In AFIBsupportegroups, " " <brmorgan@v...> wrote:

> > I have noticed that regarding atrial fibrillation, the triggers for

> an

> > episode will vary over time; Of course not all of us have the same

> type of

> > AF or the same causes, but perhaps someone can relate to my

> situation;

> > I find that what triggers an AF episode, or near episode one

> time, will

> > not trigger it the next; For example, there have been times when

> consuming

> > alcohol clearly is the culprit; Other times, drinking a white wine

> will have

> > no impact at all, and in fact seems to help; Sometimes, drinking

> caffeine

> > will trigger AF, other times it will not; Sometimes, having sexual

> relations

> > will trigger AF, other times, it will not. Sometimes, exercise will

> trigger

> > it, other times not; Sometimes taking beta blockers seem to

> prevent

> an

> > episode, other times it seems to play a role in triggering one.

> > Does anyone else notice the rather quirky and unpredictable

> nature of

> > AF? For the past year, I have been mentally talking to myself about

> this and

> > always end up saying to myself " AF is a quirky neurological

> syndrome " ; At

> > times, it almost seems to be a part of ones conscious mind, to have

> an

> > intelligence all its own.

> > There have been times when I have been free from AF for weeks

> after doing

> > all the " wrong " things like drinking alcohol, caffeine, high

> stress,

> eating

> > late at night etc; Other times, the slightest amount of stress will

> trigger

> > an AF problem for weeks, and then I cant do anything beyond taking

> my meds

> > and almost becoming an invalid.

> > Can anyone relate??

>

>

>

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>

>

[Guest guest]

In all of this discussion, the role of a spiritual communion with our God

(however we personally view him) is, I personally believe, important. To

those who may inhabit our forum who dont believe in a God per se, I

certainly dont mean to impose my beliefs upon you, but as for me, the role

of my Lord in this struggle is certainly paramount; While I detest AF, there

is always a bright side, even to suffering; If such suffering can be

enobled by bringing us closer to our Lord, if it can bring out that greater

measure of character, if it can stop us from engaging in activities which

violate our deepest moral convictions and which at the same time trigger AF,

then we can use this devastating condition for a greater good.

Being a man of both faith and reason, I pursue both, and rely exclusively

upon neither;

God bless you and all in here

Re: The quirky nature of AF

> >

> >

> > > In the early days of my afib episodes, if one would happen at rest

> after a

> > > workout at the gym, I blamed in on the workout; if it happened at

> rest

> > after

> > > a glass of wine, I blamed it on the wine; if it happened after a

> > > particularly stressful day at work, I blamed it on the stress, ad

> > infinitum.

> > > After a couple of years of monthly episodes, I came to a point

> where I

> > > wasn't finding much pleasure in anything, not drinking coffee or

> enjoying

> > a

> > > glass of wine; people were walking on eggshells around me at work

> and at

> > > home, ad nauseum. I stopped traveling in my business, stopped

> exercising,

> > > stopped sleeping in the same bed with my husband, just being so

> paranoid

> > > about the inevitability of an episode. In short, my life was

> revolving

> > > around Afib and I got to disliking myself with such a dampened

> spirit.

> > Now,

> > > five years into this unpredictable and disturbing condition, I am

> doing

> > > things as I please in moderation, since it appears that the afib

> is just

> > > plain going to happen no matter what I do or don't do. Part of me

> is

> > > resigned to it, but another part is angry as hell about it and

> about the

> > > uncertainly of treatment and everything else, well this is not

> telling

> > > anybody anything new. Yes, I can relate to its quirky nature.

> Sandy

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Web Page /group/AFIBsupport

> > > Afibbers Database- http://www.dialsolutions.com/af

> > > To Unsubscribe send an email to:

> AFIBsupport-unsubscribeegroups

> > > Daily digest mode: Send a blank message to

> AFIBsupport-digestegroups

> > > Individual emails: Send a blank message to

> AFIBsupport-normalegroups

> > > Read on web only: Send a blank message to

> AFIBsupport-nomailegroups

> > >

> > >

>

>

>

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>

[Guest guest]

>Does that mean there is really something to the don't eat list of

>foods like cheese?

I think the bit of pizza that puts me in AF is the base (and the fact I'm not

eating just a slice but a whole pizza!). I can happilly eat cheese at any time

but anything that lies heavy on the stomach or anything too large can put me in

AF if I've not recently had an attack.

--

D

[Guest guest]

I too find that pizza will cause AF, even up to a full day after I have

eaten one!!

Again, this appears to be evidence of vagal nerve involvement;

Re: Re: The quirky nature of AF

>

> >Does that mean there is really something to the don't eat list of

> >foods like cheese?

> I think the bit of pizza that puts me in AF is the base (and the fact I'm

not

> eating just a slice but a whole pizza!). I can happilly eat cheese at any

time

> but anything that lies heavy on the stomach or anything too large can put

me in

> AF if I've not recently had an attack.

>

> --

> D

>

>

>

>

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>

[Guest guest]

Thank you for sharing!!

I personally was born with a digestive disorder and have always had an

inordinate amount of gas, chronic constipation and the opposite; I think the

vagal nerve plays a major role in this, even in those with a diagnosis of

adrenergically induced AF; As I stated a week ago, there is a category

called " mixed vagal/adrenergic " ; In addition, my speculative post of last

night states that if one part of the autonomic nervous system is out of

balance, the other almost by implication, has to be as well;

Its not an either/or phenomenon but an either/and, I think;

take care

Re: The quirky nature of AF

> wrote on Tue, 14 Nov 2000 at

> 16:38:46 :

> > Can anyone relate??

>

> Absolutely !

>

> It took me absolutely ages to correlate my Afib with anything in

> particular - sometimes alcohol, sometimes MSG (?) (well, Chinese

> take-away, anyway), other times I could binge and have no problems at

> all. When JerryD first posted years ago on sci.med.cardiology about

> Coumel and his vagal Afib papers, I looked at what was happening to

> me and actually rejected that that was what I had (!) I had no

> night-time-only episodes, no particular pattern vis-a-vis food,

> exercise or whatever - sometimes exercise would stop an attack,

> sometimes not. Etc etc - totally quirky, and all the Cardio would say

> is " yes, that's common, but they are all just triggers and your

> problem is sino-atrial disease " .

>

> However, a common theme was gastric discomfort, which I originally

> thought was a *result* of the AF. It took a while (3 years) to

> separate the feelings from the heart and the gut (close together) and

> start thinking it was actually the other way round : gut pain first,

> AF second. My osteopath suggested taking a log of what I was eating,

> and also put on it frequency of bowels. Wow! I was not 'going' at

> all ! I worked contract at that time in various different clients'

> offices for 6 months at a time and noticed that at the latest place,

> I hardly ever spent enough time inside the cubicles to be able to

> notice the fittings and fixtures, shall we say - i.e. my usual

> morning 'sit' was just not happening.

>

> I tried a few things to get myself going which always used to work -

> the odd good curry (one thing we Brits still have over you in the US

> :-) ), figs with breakfast, extra bran, etc etc - and *nothing

> worked*. I then happened to go onto Verapamil, which totally bunged

> me up. I went onto a laxative to try and get myself going and after

> a day or two things indeed started moving - and suddenly my AF went

> away!

>

> Since then (2 years ago) I have 100% correlated all my AF attacks

> with bad digestive status - even the bad attacks (like a few weeks

> ago) eventually responded, when I could get my insides so to do.

>

> I think this may be more common than many realise - a lot of people

> have to use laxatives routinely and/or are diagnosed with " IBS " - and

> my experience is that my digestive problems started at such a low

> level that I didn't know it for years !

>

> ---------

>

> BTW, feeling *good* at present - one quadrant of amalgams out, and

> now been on supplements for 2 weeks, including Selenium (an Hg

> remover), and eating loads of eggs (sulphur is another mercury

> remover) - and have been starting to feel loads better. Fingers

> crossed, chickens not yet counted, and so forth, but I'll settle for a

> couple of good weeks in the meantime. :-))

>

>

> Vicky

>

>

>

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>

>

[Guest guest]

Greg, good to hear from you! What did you do when you went into AF at your

wife's dinner party? Just tough it out for the hour it lasted? I try to

relax in bed during my episodes, which usually occur (precisely as Jim

described in his 14 nov message) at THE MOMENT between waking and

sleeping. It's hard for me to settle down once the cylinders begin to

misfire, as I am in a bit of a panic and have to fight the urge to flee. I

also can't stand to have anyone hovering over me, it's like really intense

claustrophobia. But once I fall into the familiar dysrhythm (new word), I

can be still. I pray, write poetry, compose music, plan my company's

budget, decide when to get dog groomed, etc. Last night my heart started to

do flipflops just as I was about to drop off, but it only lasted for 4-5

minutes and never really got into full swing, if you know what I mean. That

was a first! I still lost most of the night, though, propped up in bed

anxiously waiting for the inevitable, which didn't happen (joy!). How

diabolical -- missing a night's sleep while I was *not* in A-Fib. I was

thinking about what Jack Drum said about AF having a mind of its own and

thought of writing a King-type of novel with all the people on this

list as characters, and the final outcome, of course, being that the enemy

is conquered. :-) Sandy

Re: The quirky nature of AF

>

>Sandy,

>

>Excellent commentary on this mysterious affliction! I have shared

>your experience and more recently have been doing the things I like

>in moderation. For example at a recent dinner party for my wife I

>decided to have some very nice red wine. Not surprisingly I went

>into afib about one half hour later. It only lasted for about 1 hour

>so all in all it was worth it! Other times, as mentioned by

>, I will have some wine or undertake some vigorous activity and

>no afib will result. I too am considering an EP study but like

>, am nervous about it. Maybe it is more prudent to just accept

>occasional episodes and get on with life. I'm going to start

>travelling again but only to civilized countries with reliable

>medical systems! Keep up the good dialogue.

>

>Greg

> AFIBsupportegroups, " P. Raichel " <vientos@v...> wrote:

>> In the early days of my afib episodes, if one would happen at rest

>after a

>> workout at the gym, I blamed in on the workout; if it happened at

>rest after

>> a glass of wine, I blamed it on the wine; if it happened after a

>> particularly stressful day at work, I blamed it on the stress, ad

>infinitum.

>> After a couple of years of monthly episodes, I came to a point

>where I

>> wasn't finding much pleasure in anything, not drinking coffee or

>enjoying a

>> glass of wine; people were walking on eggshells around me at work

>and at

>> home, ad nauseum. I stopped traveling in my business, stopped

>exercising,

>> stopped sleeping in the same bed with my husband, just being so

>paranoid

>> about the inevitability of an episode. In short, my life was

>revolving

>> around Afib and I got to disliking myself with such a dampened

>spirit. Now,

>> five years into this unpredictable and disturbing condition, I am

>doing

>> things as I please in moderation, since it appears that the afib is

>just

>> plain going to happen no matter what I do or don't do. Part of me

>is

>> resigned to it, but another part is angry as hell about it and

>about the

>> uncertainly of treatment and everything else, well this is not

>telling

>> anybody anything new. Yes, I can relate to its quirky nature.

>Sandy

>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

I know this message was directed at Greg, but I had to relate to your

experience about going into AF from waking into sleeping; With me, I will go

into it upon waking, but never upon going into a deep sleep; Its only upon

waking up, that I start to feel that compressed feeling near my heart, and I

throw a palpitation.

I also can relate to having loved ones hovering around you when they know

you are in an episode or about to go into one; With me, having someone say

" , are you allright? " makes me feel like an invalid and I get somewhat

angry, which of course only makes things worse; The mere question brings up

the anger I feel at even having this condition;

Many times I have thought that the best way to deal with this is in fact

surrounded by strangers, medically competent strangers that is!!

But enough of me;

Thank you for your kind words about Friday; I hope to have a truly

frank and rewarding discussion with Dr. Morady;

Re: The quirky nature of AF

>

>

> >

> >Sandy,

> >

> >Excellent commentary on this mysterious affliction! I have shared

> >your experience and more recently have been doing the things I like

> >in moderation. For example at a recent dinner party for my wife I

> >decided to have some very nice red wine. Not surprisingly I went

> >into afib about one half hour later. It only lasted for about 1 hour

> >so all in all it was worth it! Other times, as mentioned by

> >, I will have some wine or undertake some vigorous activity and

> >no afib will result. I too am considering an EP study but like

> >, am nervous about it. Maybe it is more prudent to just accept

> >occasional episodes and get on with life. I'm going to start

> >travelling again but only to civilized countries with reliable

> >medical systems! Keep up the good dialogue.

> >

> >Greg

> > AFIBsupportegroups, " P. Raichel " <vientos@v...> wrote:

> >> In the early days of my afib episodes, if one would happen at rest

> >after a

> >> workout at the gym, I blamed in on the workout; if it happened at

> >rest after

> >> a glass of wine, I blamed it on the wine; if it happened after a

> >> particularly stressful day at work, I blamed it on the stress, ad

> >infinitum.

> >> After a couple of years of monthly episodes, I came to a point

> >where I

> >> wasn't finding much pleasure in anything, not drinking coffee or

> >enjoying a

> >> glass of wine; people were walking on eggshells around me at work

> >and at

> >> home, ad nauseum. I stopped traveling in my business, stopped

> >exercising,

> >> stopped sleeping in the same bed with my husband, just being so

> >paranoid

> >> about the inevitability of an episode. In short, my life was

> >revolving

> >> around Afib and I got to disliking myself with such a dampened

> >spirit. Now,

> >> five years into this unpredictable and disturbing condition, I am

> >doing

> >> things as I please in moderation, since it appears that the afib is

> >just

> >> plain going to happen no matter what I do or don't do. Part of me

> >is

> >> resigned to it, but another part is angry as hell about it and

> >about the

> >> uncertainly of treatment and everything else, well this is not

> >telling

> >> anybody anything new. Yes, I can relate to its quirky nature.

> >Sandy

> >

> >

> >

> >Web Page /group/AFIBsupport

> >Afibbers Database- http://www.dialsolutions.com/af

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>

>

>

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>

[Guest guest]

You have succinctly described my symptoms and many in here;

I happen to think, that this vagal factor is genetic in origin; My mother

and my great aunt who is over 100 years of age describe the same symptoms;

I can remember back to 1994 when the " panic disorders " clinic at the

University Of Michigan told me that all of this was psychaitric in origin; I

will never forget the rather abrasive obese lady therapist who told me " so

what, so you go into AFIB, it aint serious anyway " ;

I happen to believe that AF IS serious, and that we cant take a cavalier

attitude towards it;

Most of all, let NOT any of us resign ourselves to this condition. There IS

a solution sometime, somewhere;

All of us can live without good news for a day, but NONE of us can live

without HOPE for the future;

Re: The quirky nature of AF

> I spent a couple of years trying to figure out what caused my afib.

> It seemed that beer caused the problem, but not always, wine was a

> culprit, but again not always. Asthma and allergies, you name it,

> everything seemed to be a trigger.

>

> Once I learned about vagal afib, the connection becae clear. It was

> the act of relaxation that would throw me into afib. Whether it was

> sitting down with a beer, leaving the office, or even realizing that

> I was " over the hump " at work, I would get that familiar kick in the

> chest.

>

> I seemed to be on about a 10-day cycle, in fib at least part of the

> time on 7 of those days. Rythmol helped reduce the severity of the

> attacks, but had pretty unpleasant side effects. With tambocor, I

> have an attack of afib maybe once or twice a month, usually very

> biref and mild.

>

> There seems to be a correlation with sleep that I still haven't

> figured out. Either I am more likely to be in afib if I don't get

> enough sleep, or else I don't sleep well when I'm in afib.

>

>

>

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>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/20/2000 1:55:07 AM Eastern Standard Time,

brmorgan@... writes:

> Sotalol does seem to reduce the frequency of AF episodes if it is taken over

> a long period of time (at least a year); Hence betapace/sotalol does have

> some efficacy in preventing the frequency of AF episodes, but it is not

>

Probably because its too toxic and can potentially cause other arrythmias in

the short-term-

jerry

[Guest guest]

Dorean,

Hi! In response to your query : " does it help if you prop yourself up in

bed before you go into AF? " Since my episodes occur during sleep or at the

threshhold of sleep, I am paranoid about becoming horizontal, and always

fell asleep propped up in bed (until recently). At some point during the

night, I'd wake up enough to toss the pillows on the floor and stretch my

body out. I was convinced for 6 years that this worked, but my last 2

episodes have occurred while sitting propped up in bed. Bummer! I got mad

and decided it never made any difference, and so for the last 2 months have

slept from start to finish stretched out completely with no change in

frequency of episodes. Nevertheless, I still feel uneasy about going to

sleep, and am most comfortable falling asleep alone; I have to have

everything in the room exactly as I want it (bedclothes, light, door, etc.)

and then I take a long time to allow myself to settle down, counting my

pulse, reassuring myself, praying. I am not normally a fussy person except

when it comes to this nighttime routine. Sandy

Re: Re: The quirky nature of AF

>

>Sandy - Thanks for your humor. Query: Does it help if you prop yourself

up

>in bed before you go into AF? I know this is a weird question, but I find

>that my (vagal) AF comes on so rapidly that there is no stopping it after

>about two or three off beats. But, if I can sense it coming on and prop

>myself up on pillows, sometimes I can prevent it from happening. Not

always,

>but sometimes. Then, after an hour or two, I can lie down normally and go

to

>sleep. Dorean

>

>

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[Guest guest]

Dorean, I will be very interested to know the results of your sleep studies

in February. Your sleeping experiences mirror my own. Sandy

Re: Re: The quirky nature of AF

>

>Dear Friends-

>I think there is a relationship between vagal AF and going to sleep, or

going

>into deep sleep. I go to sleep very easily, especially because I stay up

to

>late (because sleep is aversive to me since that is when I go into AF).

But,

>I have also realized that I have to go to sleep slowly, rather than

rapidly,

>because, odd though it sounds, going to sleep too rapidly leads to AF for

me.

>I repeatedly check to see if my heart rate is around 60, not too low and

not

>too high. If I find anything amiss, I prop myself up on pillows to

forestall

>going into AF. My docs try to be understanding.

> My EP has now sent me to the Sleep Clinic at our local hospital to

>study my sleep patterns. It will occur in February. I've talked with the

>doc about how I should prepare for the study. I will do those things which

>often lead to an AF episode, ie., will get a very good, probably

overly-long

>period of exercise, will eat a very good somewhat late dinner, and be very,

>very tired when I reach the clinic. They will then hook me up to heart and

>brain leads and study oxygen consumption, and study what happens. Rather

than

>trying to forestall sleep, I will just let myself have the luxury of

falling

>quickly into sleep. I'm hoping to get some information from this. Has

anyone

>else had this done? Dorean

>

>

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