Re: Vivian's posting

[Guest guest]

Hi Jon,

My belief is that when people post on this board they do so because they are

interested in doing the Work as created by Byron . As such my belief is

that for their own sake they should follow certain guidelines.

To me these guidelines include but are not limited to:

Staying in ones own business and not being in God's business or the business of

others

Doing the Work by pointing outwards

Being willing to be as petty as possible (or as necessary)

Doing the turnarounds and seeing if they apply

Being willing to go inside and really looking at possibilities and not just

rushing through

Being willing to try to stop running stories about how things " should " be

And so on.

If we are not willing to follow those concepts of the Work then why be on this

board at all? To me it appears to be a place where everyone is " nice " to each

other in an attempt to be supportive and that certainly feels safe. But I'm not

sure that we are really being all that helpful when we see others stray from

what has created and we just accept their doing so.

At least that's my take on much of what I see here recently.

Vivian

Re: I should love myself / Vivian's posting

Vivian / everyone,

Just been thinking about your posting some more.

If we are feeling stress as a result of what others are saying or

doing in the group, we can inquire into it, if that feels right.

This can include any stress we feel about how others should do the

work, how we believe they should be, anything at all, even that they

should do the work on ....... .

(Or, in the case of nne's posting, possible stress we might feel

about annoying or upsetting others)

It's an opportunity to inquire into beliefs that we are holding (or

that are holding us, more likely), which are being projected onto the

group / members of the group (including projected onto Vivian, me or

anyone else).

An opportunity, not a requirement :-)

And I can't know if you (Vivian) are feeling any stress around what's

happening in the group - it's possible to guess at it from what people

say, but can't ever know for sure - and even if you are, what you say

is still valid.

With thanks,

Jon

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Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com

Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.15/1839 - Release Date: 12/9/2008

9:59 AM

[Guest guest]

Hi Vivian,

For me, the work is pretty simple - notice what I am feeling, and see

if there is a thought or belief behind that. And if it feels right,

inquire. Sometimes I get as far as asking just the first question and

it drops away, sometimes I need the 'full kit' - the 4 questions and

the turnarounds.

It seems like you have quite a few beliefs about how people should be

on this board and what they should do - nothing wrong with that - for

me, if I have a belief about how someone should be on this board, I do

the work on it (or the work does me). And sometimes I don't, truthfully.

These inquiries used to be something that I posted regularly on the

board (and on the blog I used to have), but I then discovered it felt

kinder to keep these inquiries to myself - for the sake of me and

others. Not a rule that I have, just something that tends to feel

right for me nowadays.

I realize that it is no longer my business whether others do the work

or not - it doesn't matter. Whether I do it or not is a completely

different thing.

And I'm often in other people's business, believing they should do the

work or do it differently, or be different - that's my clue to pay

attention, notice my belief and inquire.

Maybe there are beliefs you have about the group, or individuals

within the group, that are causing stress for you - if so, these could

be inquired into. It's all happening for us.

Much love,

Jon

[Guest guest]

I have heard tell folks that are not willing to follow the guidelines of

the Work to come back later when / if they are willing to do the Work.  And it

makes me smile that she usually begins by asking, " Who wants to do the Work? "  

 

I think Vivian is right on in what she is expressing.  I suppose that just

because this site is named after one of 's books, it doesn't mean that it

has to stay focused on the Work of Byron .

 

Things/ people do evolve and change.

 

Love,

Let yourself be silently drawn by the strange pull of what you really love. It

will not lead you astray.

Rumi

Subject: Re: Vivian's posting

To: Loving-what-is

Date: Wednesday, December 17, 2008, 12:35 AM

Hi Vivian,

For me, the work is pretty simple - notice what I am feeling, and see

if there is a thought or belief behind that. And if it feels right,

inquire. Sometimes I get as far as asking just the first question and

it drops away, sometimes I need the 'full kit' - the 4 questions and

the turnarounds.

It seems like you have quite a few beliefs about how people should be

on this board and what they should do - nothing wrong with that - for

me, if I have a belief about how someone should be on this board, I do

the work on it (or the work does me). And sometimes I don't, truthfully.

These inquiries used to be something that I posted regularly on the

board (and on the blog I used to have), but I then discovered it felt

kinder to keep these inquiries to myself - for the sake of me and

others. Not a rule that I have, just something that tends to feel

right for me nowadays.

I realize that it is no longer my business whether others do the work

or not - it doesn't matter. Whether I do it or not is a completely

different thing.

And I'm often in other people's business, believing they should do the

work or do it differently, or be different - that's my clue to pay

attention, notice my belief and inquire.

Maybe there are beliefs you have about the group, or individuals

within the group, that are causing stress for you - if so, these could

be inquired into. It's all happening for us.

Much love,

Jon

[Guest guest]

What works for you Jon may not work for others esp. those who have spent less

time doing the Work.

created a process and worked on it for many many years. Based on her track

record and assuming it rings true to those who care to post here, I'm simply

suggesting that people on this board do the Work based on what has created

and what she suggests. It's unbelievable to me that you as the head honcho would

suggest otherwise.

Vivian

Re: Vivian's posting

Hi Vivian,

For me, the work is pretty simple - notice what I am feeling, and see

if there is a thought or belief behind that. And if it feels right,

inquire. Sometimes I get as far as asking just the first question and

it drops away, sometimes I need the 'full kit' - the 4 questions and

the turnarounds.

It seems like you have quite a few beliefs about how people should be

on this board and what they should do - nothing wrong with that - for

me, if I have a belief about how someone should be on this board, I do

the work on it (or the work does me). And sometimes I don't, truthfully.

These inquiries used to be something that I posted regularly on the

board (and on the blog I used to have), but I then discovered it felt

kinder to keep these inquiries to myself - for the sake of me and

others. Not a rule that I have, just something that tends to feel

right for me nowadays.

I realize that it is no longer my business whether others do the work

or not - it doesn't matter. Whether I do it or not is a completely

different thing.

And I'm often in other people's business, believing they should do the

work or do it differently, or be different - that's my clue to pay

attention, notice my belief and inquire.

Maybe there are beliefs you have about the group, or individuals

within the group, that are causing stress for you - if so, these could

be inquired into. It's all happening for us.

Much love,

Jon

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Internal Virus Database is out of date.

Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com

Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.15/1839 - Release Date: 12/9/2008

9:59 AM

[Guest guest]

Vivian,

The only thing I am suggesting is that people inquire into their

stressful thoughts/beliefs, if that feels right.

Those thoughts can be about others, themselves, the world, whatever,

even the belief " I shouldn't judge others " can be inquired into.

There is no rule that says " people should judge other people rather

than themselves " - there's plenty of examples of faciltating

people on beliefs about themselves, including people doing the work

for the first time - I can even remember listening to a session where

the person apologises, saying they've judged themself rather than a

neighbour and said they couldn't do it wrong, and she helped the

lady inquire.

If people start by judging themselves, inquire, get more comfortable

with it and progress to judging others, that's fine by me. Whatever

is right for them.

And yes, sure judge others - judge you, me, the next door neighbour,

President Bush, the government, their favorite sports team - judge,

judge away, as if we're not already - and inquire, if that feels

right. And if it doesn't feel right, suffer - either way works for me.

Much love,

Jon

[Guest guest]

I am completely lost. Who is doing what, where and how? The list seems to

focus a lot more on the work than when some people steered it towards ACIM,

etc. in the past. I always thought there was a list for Doing the work and

this one was more for stuff being discussed and people can do the work too.

I have noticed that postings to the other list is non-existent which should

tell you something.

When I joined the list I got hugely irritated by many people, but no one

here has caused me stressful thoughts for a long while. nne is leaving,

Vivian is upset and I cannot even begin to see a reason. Are there a lot of

emails flying behind the scenes that we are not privvy too?

I really don't understand the big deal. Vivian, in the beginning I didn't

like you but you have really grown on me with your direct ways. If you want

people to be more outspoken, why don't you be the one?

I think it is very important for Jon to be regarded well by everyone, but

heck, someone has to fill that role. I don't even mind Ros and her 9/11

posts. I do miss the in-depth spiritual discussions we had, but once again,

if I really want it, I am the one who should be doing it.

What is going on?

Re: Vivian's posting

>

>

> Hi Vivian,

>

> For me, the work is pretty simple - notice what I am feeling, and see

> if there is a thought or belief behind that. And if it feels right,

> inquire. Sometimes I get as far as asking just the first question and

> it drops away, sometimes I need the 'full kit' - the 4 questions and

> the turnarounds.

>

> It seems like you have quite a few beliefs about how people should be

> on this board and what they should do - nothing wrong with that - for

> me, if I have a belief about how someone should be on this board, I do

> the work on it (or the work does me). And sometimes I don't, truthfully.

>

> These inquiries used to be something that I posted regularly on the

> board (and on the blog I used to have), but I then discovered it felt

> kinder to keep these inquiries to myself - for the sake of me and

> others. Not a rule that I have, just something that tends to feel

> right for me nowadays.

>

> I realize that it is no longer my business whether others do the work

> or not - it doesn't matter. Whether I do it or not is a completely

> different thing.

>

> And I'm often in other people's business, believing they should do the

> work or do it differently, or be different - that's my clue to pay

> attention, notice my belief and inquire.

>

> Maybe there are beliefs you have about the group, or individuals

> within the group, that are causing stress for you - if so, these could

> be inquired into. It's all happening for us.

>

> Much love,

>

> Jon

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

>

> Internal Virus Database is out of date.

> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com

> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.15/1839 - Release Date:

> 12/9/2008 9:59 AM

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

It is my understanding that " The Work " is the 4 questions and

turnarounds, not the JYN worksheet and suggestions to look at others, etc.

And I could be wrong about that - and I also want to make it clear I'm

not disagreeing with Vivian - judge others, yes, for sure - I'm also

saying that I see it as perfectly OK to judge ourselves and inquire.

It's all the same thing.

One thing I would add is, if possible, even with ourselves, see if it

is possible to " third-person " the statement.

For example, " I shouldn't be so tired " - try inquiring into " My body

should shouldn't be so tired " or even " This body shouldn't be so tired. "

With thanks,

Jon

[Guest guest]

;-)  this all seems like the healthy growing pains of any " group " .

the value i see in following the directive to do the work on " others " when we

first begin is that,

when we begin the work we really believe / perceive " other " .  and as we judge

our perceptions of " other " with all our might, the work gently guides us over

and over again back to Self...all there is....no " other " . 

 

this is a loving group.  love and do as you will.

 

lisa

Let yourself be silently drawn by the strange pull of what you really love. It

will not lead you astray.

Rumi

Subject: Re: Vivian's posting

To: Loving-what-is

Date: Wednesday, December 17, 2008, 11:14 AM

Vivian,

The only thing I am suggesting is that people inquire into their

stressful thoughts/beliefs, if that feels right.

Those thoughts can be about others, themselves, the world, whatever,

even the belief " I shouldn't judge others " can be inquired into.

There is no rule that says " people should judge other people rather

than themselves " - there's plenty of examples of faciltating

people on beliefs about themselves, including people doing the work

for the first time - I can even remember listening to a session where

the person apologises, saying they've judged themself rather than a

neighbour and said they couldn't do it wrong, and she helped the

lady inquire.

If people start by judging themselves, inquire, get more comfortable

with it and progress to judging others, that's fine by me. Whatever

is right for them.

And yes, sure judge others - judge you, me, the next door neighbour,

President Bush, the government, their favorite sports team - judge,

judge away, as if we're not already - and inquire, if that feels

right. And if it doesn't feel right, suffer - either way works for me.

Much love,

Jon

[Guest guest]

Just when I thought I was getting through to you at all Jon you come up with a

beautiful example. Exactly what I'm hoping you or others will do. Urging someone

to write My body shouldn't be so tired instead of I shouldn't be so tired. Now

you are helping them do the Work as created by .

I could care less if you think it's ok for someone to do something. What I want

to know is how suggests they do it. that's all I'm asking for. I didn't

sign on to Jon's board or Ros's or 's or Vivian's. I signed on to one based

on the Work and it's my belief that following the Work can be helpful to people

in turning around their personal lives and making them happier.

Vivian

Re: Vivian's posting

Hi ,

It is my understanding that " The Work " is the 4 questions and

turnarounds, not the JYN worksheet and suggestions to look at others, etc.

And I could be wrong about that - and I also want to make it clear I'm

not disagreeing with Vivian - judge others, yes, for sure - I'm also

saying that I see it as perfectly OK to judge ourselves and inquire.

It's all the same thing.

One thing I would add is, if possible, even with ourselves, see if it

is possible to " third-person " the statement.

For example, " I shouldn't be so tired " - try inquiring into " My body

should shouldn't be so tired " or even " This body shouldn't be so tired. "

With thanks,

Jon

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com

Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.15/1839 - Release Date: 12/9/2008

9:59 AM

[Guest guest]

Good stuff Vivian, you've got every right to do that, to apply the

work as you want to and share how you think the work should be done.

As might say, it all happens for us.

Anyone got any inquiries they want to share?

Jon

>

> I'm just going by what I heard say in person. but some years

have gone by and perhaps she says different things now. I could be out

of touch but if not then I'll stand by all I've written.

>

> Vivian

[Guest guest]

All I can say to this whole chain is a one-sentence quote from .

" I have never experienced a stressful feeling that wasn't caused by

attaching to an untrue thought. "

Are any of you having stressful thoughts? thinking something should

be different than it is? Well if you are, they aren't true. You

are being fooled.

peace to all,

Helen

>

> I'm just going by what I heard say in person. but some years

have gone by and perhaps she says different things now. I could be

out of touch but if not then I'll stand by all I've written.

>

> Vivian

> Re: Vivian's posting

>

>

> Hey Vivian,

>

> If you really want to know how suggests people do it, ask

her -

> seriously, check out whether people should or shouldn't judge

> themselves, etc.

>

> I don't know what she would say - I would be surprised if she

has any

> hard and fast rule about people should judge others rather than

> themselves, etc. In my experience I judge myself, others, etc,

etc -

> it happens, I don't have too much say about it :-)

>

> And I'm open to being surprised, seriously!

>

> Personally, I don't really care who or what people judge, my

> attachment used to be to the belief that people should inquire,

> especially people in this group - now I notice that attachment

is much

> reduced, still comes up from time to time, with it's associated

stress.

>

> Of course, that's the signal that there is something for me to

inquire

> into - I've realized it's not my job to rescue or save others

from

> their stressful thoughts, it's my job to save me from mine and

mine

> alone - at least for the moment, that might change again at some

point.

>

> Much love and thanks, keep doing your thing,

>

> Jon

>

>

>

>

>

>

> -------------------------------------------------------------------

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>

>

>

> No virus found in this incoming message.

> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com

> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.19/1854 - Release Date:

12/17/2008 7:21 PM

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Helen, a succinct quote - I went looking for the quote about

" it all happens for you, not to you " to add it here and found this one

instead, which I've not seen before:

" A mind that doesn't question its judgements, makes the world very

small and dangerous. "

In my experience this is true.

With thanks,

Jon

[Guest guest]

Thank you Jon - that is a very good one and it resonates with me.

Helen

>

> Thanks Helen, a succinct quote - I went looking for the quote about

> " it all happens for you, not to you " to add it here and found this

one

> instead, which I've not seen before:

>

> " A mind that doesn't question its judgements, makes the world very

> small and dangerous. "

>

> In my experience this is true.

>

> With thanks,

>

> Jon

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Vivian,

I do agree with you that suggests that we do the work by

judging other people. I believe she suggests that because most of

us are judging others all the time and she wants to highlight that

point. Also I think we can be more honest and petty and really lay

into it when we are judging others more easily than we can when we

judge ourselves. Our Ego confuses us when we judge ourselves so we

are more truthful and honest and make more progress when we start by

judging others.

You asked for what does say about all this.

She has a whole chapter (chap 7) on Doing The Work on Self-Judgments

in the Loving What Is book.

Here's a snipit from one of the example dialogs.

Marilyn: I kind of didn't follow the rules, because I wrote about

myself

: Yes, you definitely didn't follow the rules. And that's

okay. We do that. There are no mistakes. There's no way you can

do The Work wrong. What I suggest is that people judge someone

else, not themselves yet, and you may find out that you're the

someone else. It's all equal. So let's hear what you've written.

.. . .

Hope this helps, wishing you peace and happiness.

love,

Helen

>

> Just when I thought I was getting through to you at all Jon you

come up with a beautiful example. Exactly what I'm hoping you or

others will do. Urging someone to write My body shouldn't be so

tired instead of I shouldn't be so tired. Now you are helping them

do the Work as created by .

>

> I could care less if you think it's ok for someone to do

something. What I want to know is how suggests they do it.

that's all I'm asking for. I didn't sign on to Jon's board or Ros's

or 's or Vivian's. I signed on to one based on the Work and it's

my belief that following the Work can be helpful to people in

turning around their personal lives and making them happier.

>

> Vivian

> Re: Vivian's posting

>

>

> Hi ,

>

> It is my understanding that " The Work " is the 4 questions and

> turnarounds, not the JYN worksheet and suggestions to look at

others, etc.

>

> And I could be wrong about that - and I also want to make it

clear I'm

> not disagreeing with Vivian - judge others, yes, for sure - I'm

also

> saying that I see it as perfectly OK to judge ourselves and

inquire.

> It's all the same thing.

>

> One thing I would add is, if possible, even with ourselves, see

if it

> is possible to " third-person " the statement.

>

> For example, " I shouldn't be so tired " - try inquiring into " My

body

> should shouldn't be so tired " or even " This body shouldn't be so

tired. "

>

> With thanks,

>

> Jon

>

>

>

>

>

>

> -------------------------------------------------------------------

-----------

>

>

>

> Internal Virus Database is out of date.

> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com

> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.15/1839 - Release Date:

12/9/2008 9:59 AM

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

HI Helen,

Thanks for your thoughtful response. I'm certainly not suggesting we point

outward because it's a rule. I'm simply say has found that to be more

helpful than pointing inward and I trust 's experience with this.

Second, yes I agree that as you say she wants to highlight the point that we all

spend a great deal of time in other people's stories.

But to me there is another perhaps more important reason for pointing outward.

Once we investigate and once we do the turnarounds we hopefully come to realize

A. the ridiculousness and hopelessness of some of our expectations of others.

Also, we learn that others are mirrors for us and what we expect of them is

EXACTLY what we should be doing. That to me is the key as to why we point

outwards. To show us the way we can expect us to live our lives. that's why it

is more powerful than using I statements.

Ex My friend should not lie. once all is said and done I remember saying

to a woman, then it is for you not to lie. That is your value system and not

your friends. So it is your job not to lie.

I wasn't trying to be rigid and to impose rules. I just respect what it has

taken years to develop and I think we can undo ourselves more completely

and faster if we do as she suggests.

Thanks,

Vivian

Re: Vivian's posting

>

>

> Hi ,

>

> It is my understanding that " The Work " is the 4 questions and

> turnarounds, not the JYN worksheet and suggestions to look at

others, etc.

>

> And I could be wrong about that - and I also want to make it

clear I'm

> not disagreeing with Vivian - judge others, yes, for sure - I'm

also

> saying that I see it as perfectly OK to judge ourselves and

inquire.

> It's all the same thing.

>

> One thing I would add is, if possible, even with ourselves, see

if it

> is possible to " third-person " the statement.

>

> For example, " I shouldn't be so tired " - try inquiring into " My

body

> should shouldn't be so tired " or even " This body shouldn't be so

tired. "

>

> With thanks,

>

> Jon

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ----------------------------------------------------------

-----------

>

>

>

> Internal Virus Database is out of date.

> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com

> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.15/1839 - Release Date:

12/9/2008 9:59 AM

>

>

>