Re: Lightworkers of the world, unite!+

[Guest guest]

It is strange to me too, but my organization finds this (and other things) threatening about me. How weird is that?

Hi fa:

I know; it must be hard. I also have friends who were Hillary supporters who just don't see what I see. I try to share my hope and excitement about something amazing I'm experiencing and it's like talking to myself.. I post things on line to my friends and often there is no response...none...I don't know if it's cynicism or fear, or if they think I'm crazy..I don't know Oh, well, .I see something extraordinary unfolding and I'm going to trust in it and work for it. We have critical mass for transformational change that we didn't have this time last year...Obama isn't causing it; he's as surprised as the rest of us.....

Stay Well:

Suzanne

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[Guest guest]

I discussed this with my analyst yesterday (Zurich trained, very classical) – and he talked a lot about a person (in this case, Obama) just happening to be in the right place at the right time – so not an inflation, just the right person emerging from the collective unconscious to fulfil a global need. He is also completely behind my intention to work for the campaign.

**Yeah, that's what so cool....He never expected anything and isn't terribly attached to it. Not something he planned his whole life and thought he was entitled to. Suzanne Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008.

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi Suzanne,

> I discussed this with my analyst yesterday (Zurich trained, very

classical)

> - and he talked a lot about a person (in this case, Obama) just

happening to

> be in the right place at the right time - so not an inflation, just

the

> right person emerging from the collective unconscious to fulfil a

global

> need.

Hi, " jo " -

This was Tolstoy's ? " take " ? too, you might remember?

marte

[Guest guest]

I totally agree and think there are Obama people organizing in lots of European and African countries. At some point we will need to live the "Out of One: Many" slogan that moves us and that of course means having dialogue and diplomacy with the rest of the world.

**That was supposed to be "Out of many, One"

Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008.

[Guest guest]

Dear Suzanne

"**Yes and this is the audacity of hope that Obama brings to the table; the hope that we will remember our longing to live in a better, more just, more loving world and come together and place the real needs of people above profits and "isms" and just take care of one another....He's not talking perfection or socialism, or wanting everybody to be the same...just some basic taking care of one another....Strange to me that so many people find that instinct so threatening...."

You make me sorry I even opened my mouth . You have no clue to where i am coming from and that may be my fault.

kindly please do no patronize me...i am not threatened by any living human being...certainly not Obama who seems so harmless and tame.

When i write about my ideas, I expect to be taken seriously and then disagreed with, not patronized. Obama who I will vote for because the other is unthinkable is a political candidate for office. he is not G-d. I may disagree with him and voice my reasons for not voting for him in the primaries.. They do in fact hang on my personal understanding of the Universe and how it works.

Dear Toni:

If you read my statement you will see that I spoke of some people, not necessarily you, being threatened by "the instinct to hope and try to make things better. " I said nothing that was in anyway patronizing and did not say that you felt threatened by Obama. Certainly you have your right to your perceptions and opinions about him as I do mine. I do know you from this list for several years now and for some reason that I really don't understand we have never been able to communicate without great difficulty and lots of misunderstandings. There is always this tendency it seems for you to take umbrage with

anybody talking about wanting to make things better. As if you were the " Inflation police"

or the "reality police." As if it were useless to think anybody can make any changes for the better in this world. Things do change for the better and people working together can make a difference.....doesn't mean we are looking for perfection or that we think we can control nature or the gods or that we are all powerful. Nobody thinks Obama is God, least of all him...

It does mean that if we want to work for it and fight for it we can probably get something akin to universal health care in this political climate and maybe even create a more level playing field so people have employment. Perhaps a more sane former policy and an end to this horrible war... Things change; people used to own slaves and now they don't . Women couldn't vote and after lots of marching in the streets and campaigning to change minds, now we vote. So, of course people coming together to make a difference can change a lot.

You have millions of Obama supporters running around yelling "Yes we can" not because it's a nifty slogan but because people, myself included are so very tired of being told that nothing is possible....

SuzanneVote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008.

[Guest guest]

Dear Maureen,

I have come to a point where I may disappoint you even more. Yes, Jesus did want a just society because mankind will only get to a more spiritual level once it recognize the importance of reaching out to others in any way it can. But in my spirituality, the social gospel is way off the mark for what Jesus had in mind as primary. He was, in my opinion trying to show the face of G-d on an esoteric manner, level...love, forgiveness, faith, as well as somewhat exoteric (to get people's attention.They listened because of the miracles and they understood the parables which pointed to G-d alone.)

To my mind we "do good" so to speak, because we recognize we are all One. The only way for us to become spiritual is not one by one urging our souls upward and onward, but by recognizing that the hurts and pain of another are our hurt and pain. This is a matter of grace, not social engineering.No law is ever practiced with love and not judgment. That is what Jesus wanted. A world of love where others are not judged. Show me any social gospel that does not judge!

Further, to horrify you even more, I do not myself believe G-d set up any laws. The 10 commandments were not of G-d who gave us free will even to do what is unlawful. It was society itself who promulgated the commandments...and the Israelites nodded to their G-d and their covenant in the first two.They attempted to set up a cohesive society.

The energy that is the Universe is love. Unconditional love. The state of the world is mankind's answer to his free will. When man can freely will to love we will have a G-dly society and not before.

The state of the world is what it IS. First we recognize it as is, then we accept our responsibility for it (it came from the collective consciousness and unconsciousness) and then we do what we must to create love around us. My G-d does not punish, and he does not send disasters, poverty and ills. Nature goes in an endless circle and so tsasumes, floods hurricanes etcetera. We ourselves consent to war and cruelty as a group ( once again collectively) which is stronger than anyone individual who tries to give love and is non judgmental.

That is my understanding of the ALL. And we are all part of the All. Once we understand that we will begin to change our world. Until then, we reach out in love to help our brothers and sisters without any judgment.

The social gospel to me, is watered down Christianity...or any other religious path we follow.

It is G-d and his graciousness we must recognize first and the beauty of his plan for all creation. We thank for all that we see around us good, bad, ugly and beautiful because we are all in the Plan.

Doing good "works" comes from a loving and grateful heart. It the outcome for spirituality, it is not the starting point as the social gospel would have us believe. G-d allows us to create just as IT creates, and our creation is a world full of justice and righteousness with all that goes with it.

Sorry, our ideas diverge. I am not religious anymore. I try with all my heart to be spiritual and to return the love I have been blessed with to everyone....I am still trying...

Toni

Re: Re: Lightworkers of the world, unite!+

Hi Toni ~I don't often disagree with you, but I do on this . . .

if everyone had their "basic needs met" do you honestly believe we would suddenly become awake and conscious? in what world are you living? You set yourself up for constant disappointment and frustration because your idea of the perfectibility of man leads you into never-never land.No I don't, but I do know that if people are hungry, cold and ill, they will never become conscious. If they are fed, warm in the winter, and healthy, they may have a chance to turn their attention to the state of their soul (or consciousness, if you prefer).

Did Jung ever even give houseroom to a social order of "everyone's needs met"? Jesus surely never did...until we get to His father's kingdom...he just wanted everyone to be as righteous as possible and he knew a little about the unrighteous, no? Does any spiritual path expect all to live in a world you describe? reality is Reality.I won't answer for Jung, but Jesus surely did - that is what his ministry was about. Every time he performed an act of healing (returning someone to the state of wholeness), *that was the kingdom of God. It did *not only refer to some place in the (very, very, very) distant future, nor some place we would go when we died - it referred to an actual reality that was created each time someone chose to follow God's laws, rather than human desires.This is the heart of the social gospel. This is the Christianity I have been raised with, and this is the Christianity I understand and try to live out. It is about taking care of each other, literally feeding each other, so no one goes hungry, providing a home for each other if they have none, about forgiveness free in the open market, rather than paid for in the Temple./end rant.Maureen

[Guest guest]

Dear Suzanne

"**Yes and this is the audacity of hope that Obama brings to the table; the hope that we will remember our longing to live in a better, more just, more loving world and come together and place the real needs of people above profits and "isms" and just take care of one another....He's not talking perfection or socialism, or wanting everybody to be the same...just some basic taking care of one another....Strange to me that so many people find that instinct so threatening...."

You make me sorry I even opened my mouth . You have no clue to where i am coming from and that may be my fault.

kindly please do no patronize me...i am not threatened by any living human being...certainly not Obama who seems so harmless and tame.

When i write about my ideas, I expect to be taken seriously and then disagreed with, not patronized. Obama who I will vote for because the other is unthinkable is a political candidate for office. he is not G-d. I may disagree with him and voice my reasons for not voting for him in the primaries.. They do in fact hang on my personal understanding of the Universe and how it works.

Hoping in the perfectibility of man anytime soon seems vastly innocent, to me and not even thinkable.. May I take that view? or is there a new rule I haven't heard about" Why would anyone be threatened by even McCain.??

My faith sees reality as it is, not how human beings are going to suddenly change their nature....let"s see I will vote AS A BLOCK TO RAISE MY TAXES????

I am allowed that, am I not?

I do not believe that in general G-d, at least as i see him intervenes in the political process. I "believe" the real needs of people are love and acceptance and non judgmentally from "do gooders"

Yes, there is a lot that can or could get done...lets see what really happens.

Suzanne, One can feel strongly about a political question and i respect your fervor, but please understand that I do not believe the "social Gospel" is anything but human attempt to fix what cannot be fixed, the heart of man...at least not by a political solution.

let us try to pick whoever will feel justice more in his heart than the other, and then HOPE that that will change some things slowly.

Social engineering has been done before in other administrations. I remember the concrete blocks of apartments in new York trashed by the poor souls who had to live there...just one example.

Let us not trounce the opposition nor call them names, nor belittle their proudly held beliefs...they may be very wrong, but are we not supposed to be moved to like if not yet to love others and not judge them??

And please, Christianity is a big umbrella, and it is only a religion among many in this world. may we all pray for more spiritual attitudes for ourselves and others.

Toni

Original Message -----

From: Brita44@...

To: JUNG-FIRE

Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 5:16 PM

Subject: Re: Re: Lightworkers of the world, unite!+

Toni Wrote:

Did Jung ever even give houseroom to a social order of "everyone's needs met"? Jesus surely never did...until we get to His father's kingdom...he just wanted everyone to be as righteous as possible and he knew a little about the unrighteous, no? Does any spiritual path expect all to live in a world you describe? reality is Reality.

Maureen wrote:

I won't answer for Jung, but Jesus surely did - that is what his ministry was about. Every time he performed an act of healing (returning someone to the state of wholeness), *that was the kingdom of God. It did *not only refer to some place in the (very, very, very) distant future, nor some place we would go when we died - it referred to an actual reality that was created each time someone chose to follow God's laws, rather than human desires.This is the heart of the social gospel. This is the Christianity I have been raised with, and this is the Christianity I understand and try to live out. It is about taking care of each other, literally feeding each other, so no one goes hungry, providing a home for each other if they have none, about forgiveness free in the open market, rather than paid for in the Temple.

**Yes and this is the audacity of hope that Obama brings to the table; the hope that we will remember our longing to live in a better, more just, more loving world and come together and place the real needs of people above profits and "isms" and just take care of one another....He's not talking perfection or socialism, or wanting everybody to be the same...just some basic taking care of one another....Strange to me that so many people find that instinct so threatening....

Suzanne

..

Faith is the bird that feels the light when the dawn is still dark.- Rabindranath Tagore

Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008.

[Guest guest]

Dear Suzanne,

peace:

There is always this tendency it seems for you to take umbrage with anybody talking about wanting to make things better. As if you were the " Inflation police"

or the "reality police." As if it were useless to think anybody can make any changes for the better in this world. Things do change for the better and people working together can make a difference.....doesn't mean we are looking for perfection or that we think we can control nature or the gods or that we are all powerful.

The problem with "making things better" is that we make judgments about "best" better" and "good."

This is a relative world and we deal with our own perceptions. McCain and Bush also thought they were making things "better" We all disagreed. For example, Obama's health plan worries me, because the young and healthy will not join unless forced. He is trying to have it both ways.

My better is not your better if material things are the only compass of "better" We give up some freedom for everything we get. I personally find socialism a pretty good system, but would be loudly shouted down. And others would be right in a way, since it is impatience that forces that opinion in me.

I don't believe in "progress" as many people understand it. I do not always believe the people who are going to do all these splendid things on the campaign trail, and then find out how our democracy really works. It is a matter of "tit for tat", you rub my back and I'll vote for your measure. That is the secret and it is not pure, or idealistic. Obama will not be able to change the system. he barely knows how it works.

So, I would love to see everybody fat and happy. In my world it will not happen as long as competition is alive and well in our society. We seldom do anything purely out of love. we want something back, we humans. I am not against "change" My hero was FDR. He was just smarter and more politically polished, as those who come from the privileged class usually are...see JFK and RFK.

I will be around in 4 years and we will see who was closer to reality. I wish you well, but as long as your and other's judgmentalism decides what is "better" or "best" and what people must do to earn what you want to give them....well...let's wait and see.

In our world of competition and exclusion there will always be those on the outs.We won't do away with our capitalism and that is what is behind, the engine that drives us.

You and i will always disagree as long as you believe in the perfectibility of mankind. Human nature may swing a little this way and that, but the ego will always be in the center. That isn't progress to me.

Good luck

Toni

If you read my statement you will see that I spoke of some people, not necessarily you, being threatened by "the instinct to hope and try to make things better. " I

To be totally honest, one doesn't say in an e-mail to another on one subject.."others may seem threatened", without trying to get a little back. Sorry. Others in that sentence include the person you were addressing.That too is judgmental.

Re: Re: Lightworkers of the world, unite!+

Dear Suzanne

"**Yes and this is the audacity of hope that Obama brings to the table; the hope that we will remember our longing to live in a better, more just, more loving world and come together and place the real needs of people above profits and "isms" and just take care of one another....He's not talking perfection or socialism, or wanting everybody to be the same...just some basic taking care of one another....Strange to me that so many people find that instinct so threatening...."

You make me sorry I even opened my mouth . You have no clue to where i am coming from and that may be my fault.

kindly please do no patronize me...i am not threatened by any living human being...certainly not Obama who seems so harmless and tame.

When i write about my ideas, I expect to be taken seriously and then disagreed with, not patronized. Obama who I will vote for because the other is unthinkable is a political candidate for office. he is not G-d. I may disagree with him and voice my reasons for not voting for him in the primaries.. They do in fact hang on my personal understanding of the Universe and how it works.

Dear Toni:

If you read my statement you will see that I spoke of some people, not necessarily you, being threatened by "the instinct to hope and try to make things better. " I said nothing that was in anyway patronizing and did not say that you felt threatened by Obama. Certainly you have your right to your perceptions and opinions about him as I do mine. I do know you from this list for several years now and for some reason that I really don't understand we have never been able to communicate without great difficulty and lots of misunderstandings. There is always this tendency it seems for you to take umbrage with

anybody talking about wanting to make things better. As if you were the " Inflation police"

or the "reality police." As if it were useless to think anybody can make any changes for the better in this world. Things do change for the better and people working together can make a difference.....doesn't mean we are looking for perfection or that we think we can control nature or the gods or that we are all powerful. Nobody thinks Obama is God, least of all him...

It does mean that if we want to work for it and fight for it we can probably get something akin to universal health care in this political climate and maybe even create a more level playing field so people have employment. Perhaps a more sane former policy and an end to this horrible war... Things change; people used to own slaves and now they don't . Women couldn't vote and after lots of marching in the streets and campaigning to change minds, now we vote. So, of course people coming together to make a difference can change a lot.

You have millions of Obama supporters running around yelling "Yes we can" not because it's a nifty slogan but because people, myself included are so very tired of being told that nothing is possible....

Suzanne

Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008.

[Guest guest]

Dear Suzanne,

The nomination process is over and done. Now the real fur will fly.

I see it already and i spoke of it many places while Hillary was still in the race. This country may not be ready to disavow its racism. So now others agree with me. I have 3 southern kids still living in the South and I know what experiences they have had. I lived there for 25 years among the Blacks and the whites in my community and school and church.

The racism that is under the surface when opinion polls come around or reporters are still there's still there out of sight or sound. but hidden.Today, Now.

Today's paper and last night's TV showed its slimy begging again, now in the general election with attacks on . They will continue and get worse. Not because i say so, but because the US has not yet grown up.Must I say I deplore this threat to our democracy such as it is, or will you grant me the truth that I am no racist and do not want the US to show its slimy side to the world and to our own Black population?

I am deeply sorry about this, not just for Ocala's sake, or his family but for all of us. He didn't know the great threat because he lived a charmed and distant life whatever he thought. We are simply too childish as a nation not to need somebody and many to look down upon...especially if we are poor whites.

This is going to be brutal...yes, it would have been to a smaller extent for Hillary....but not nearly as soul sapping, and she was somewhat used to it. I gave this reason for my decision to vote for Hillary, yet not many of my friends here in this upper-middle-class retirement community took me seriously. Yet, Pittsburgh is more segregated than any city in the south and has always been that way. There is no sigh of remorse.

Those of you who have so much fervor will need it all this campaign. For yourselves and for the candidate will deserve none of it. Be strong, and if possible do not get bitter. McCain said yesterday he can't help what the GOP national committee does...he endorses them in silence.

We may not agree on Ocala's readiness for high political office, but we agree that this slime is unconscionable.As a citizen, I am ashamed, as a Democrat I am mad as hell, as a human being before G-d, I am speechless.

Toni

Re: Re: Lightworkers of the world, unite!+

Dear Suzanne