Re: holding the opposites

[Guest guest]

As this energy body brings the dark and light( from the source) with it, into the human brain, it becomes condensed into form? There is both dark and light in the original energetic material. Acknowledging the shadow as an integral part of one's very nature, and then dealing with it is consciously as possible I presume is the only way of dealing with it. shadow management as it were......

Gail

holding the opposites

If anyone's still interested in this topic, which "arose" when I misunderstood what someone was saying, I think the paragraphs 601-605 of Mysterium Coniunctionis might apply to it. I'll include para 601 in this note:

"As high as the Primordial Man stands on the one side, so low on the other is the sinful, empirical man. The phenomenon of contamination, which we meet so frequently in the psychology of dreams and of primitives, is no mere accident but is based on a common denominator; at some point the opposites prove to be identical, and this implies the possibility of their contamination. One of the commonest instances of this is the identity of the god and his animal attribute. Such paradoxes derive from the non-human quality of the god's and the animal's psychology. The divine psyche is as far above the human as the animal psyche reaches down into subhuman depths."

Jim

[Guest guest]

The primal opposites are the human brain - thinking comes w/duality n throw in male/female......'It takes two to tango........!" The Ego cannot escape duality. Only the Heart can experience the One. the Peace that passeth understanding.

Try the Axiom of Prophetissa, alchemist Out of the One comes the Two; out of the Two comes the Three and out of the Three comes the Four as the One.

I did a riff on that in one of my books...

in haste

love

ao

They seem to come together in an electrical, stream of energy of some nature, difficult to describe... There are many "names" for it from east to west, but this energy phenomonon whatever it is,and whatever you may call it, seems to contain the opposites..Just my observation of a possibility, could this be where the opposites meet?

Gail

holding the opposites

If anyone's still interested in this topic, which "arose" when I misunderstood what someone was saying, I think the paragraphs 601-605 of Mysterium Coniunctionis might apply to it. I'll include para 601 in this note:

"As high as the Primordial Man stands on the one side, so low on the other is the sinful, empirical man. The phenomenon of contamination, which we meet so frequently in the psychology of dreams and of primitives, is no mere accident but is based on a common denominator; at some point the opposites prove to be identical, and this implies the possibility of their contamination. One of the commonest instances of this is the identity of the god and his animal attribute. Such paradoxes derive from the non-human quality of the god's and the animal's psychology. The divine psyche is as far above the human as the animal psyche reaches down into subhuman depths."

Jim

[Guest guest]

I hope to read some of your books Alice. You're a wise one. Another wise one, Edinger, who has quoted you in at least one of his books, wrote this, which seems to bring in what Gail said as well:There is another aspect to the fact that the divine psyche and the animal psyche are linked to each other and it has direct clinical relevance. Whenever a patient--or oneself for that matter--is grappling with intense instinctual urges, whenever the animal psyche is highly activated, one should be on the lookout for the religious aspect of the phenomenon. Wherever the animal is, one should look for the god. Contrariwise, wherever the god is, one should look for the animal, because, you see, they pull us in opposite directions. The god pulls us into grandiosity, inflation, and the animal pulls us down to the earth. Whenever there is an excess of one, we need to look for its other side.  (from Mysterium Lectures, pp 260-61)

 

The primal opposites are the human brain - thinking comes w/duality n throw in male/female......'It takes two to tango........! " The Ego cannot escape duality. Only the Heart can experience the One. the Peace that passeth understanding.

 

Try the Axiom of Prophetissa, alchemist Out of the One comes the Two; out of the Two comes the Three and out of the Three comes the Four as the One.

 

I did a riff on that in one of my books...

 

in haste

 

love

 

ao

 

 

 

 

They seem to come together in an electrical, stream of  energy of some nature, difficult to describe... There are many " names " for it from east to west, but this energy phenomonon whatever it is,and whatever you may call it, seems to contain the opposites..Just my observation of a possibility, could this be where the opposites meet?

 

Gail

holding the opposites

 

If anyone's still interested in this topic, which " arose " when I misunderstood what someone was saying, I think the paragraphs 601-605 of Mysterium Coniunctionis might apply to it. I'll include para 601 in this note:

" As high as the Primordial Man stands on the one side, so low on the other is the sinful, empirical man. The phenomenon of contamination, which we meet so frequently in the psychology of dreams and of primitives, is no mere accident but is based on a common denominator; at some point the opposites prove to be identical, and this implies the possibility of their contamination. One of the commonest instances of this is the identity of the god and his animal attribute. Such paradoxes derive from the non-human quality of the god's and the animal's psychology. The divine psyche is as far above the human as the animal psyche reaches down into subhuman depths. "

Jim

[Guest guest]

Thanks Alice,

There seems to be an opposition built in to all of nature at the micro and macro levels , both a negative and a positive if you will, which exists throughout biological, chemical and the laws of physics. If so, the negative would come to the human brain from a "source" just as the positive does, but would not be caused by the human brain. Maybe the brain is the transmitter( the tv set) but the program both neg. and pos. is coming from another source? So much to think about....Interesting to ponder intellectually from time to time......

Yes, the brain compartmentalizes,does many types of operations to sort and analyze incoming data many operations are oppositional, but my question is, Is the source"energy" of life as embodied in all matter( yes, there are wave patterns in water and in rocks) actually both negative and positive in nature in and of itself ?And if so,what are the implications for us as conscious beings? Does Jung address this?

Yes the heart seems to unify, put things into more of a whole, a gestalt.

Gail

holding the opposites

If anyone's still interested in this topic, which "arose" when I misunderstood what someone was saying, I think the paragraphs 601-605 of Mysterium Coniunctionis might apply to it. I'll include para 601 in this note:

"As high as the Primordial Man stands on the one side, so low on the other is the sinful, empirical man. The phenomenon of contamination, which we meet so frequently in the psychology of dreams and of primitives, is no mere accident but is based on a common denominator; at some point the opposites prove to be identical, and this implies the possibility of their contamination. One of the commonest instances of this is the identity of the god and his animal attribute. Such paradoxes derive from the non-human quality of the god's and the animal's psychology. The divine psyche is as far above the human as the animal psyche reaches down into subhuman depths."

Jim

[Guest guest]

Two thoughts;-). Kashmiri Shaivism is based in non duality, and one of the techniques of "yoga nidra" is to meditate on two truly opposite things (best with no obvious middle ground). That process throws one into a profound meditative state. An example: hold burnished gold and excrement in the meditative mind at the same time and see what results. Best, Carol LouiseMay you be filled with loving kindnessMay you be peaceful and at easeMay you be happyMay you be well.....

Thanks Alice,

There seems to be an opposition built in to all of nature at the micro and macro levels , both a negative and a positive if you will, which exists throughout biological, chemical and the laws of physics. If so, the negative would come to the human brain from a "source" just as the positive does, but would not be caused by the human brain. Maybe the brain is the transmitter( the tv set) but the program both neg. and pos. is coming from another source? So much to think about....Interesting to ponder intellectually from time to time......

Yes, the brain compartmentalizes,does many types of operations to sort and analyze incoming data many operations are oppositional, but my question is, Is the source"energy" of life as embodied in all matter( yes, there are wave patterns in water and in rocks) actually both negative and positive in nature in and of itself ?And if so,what are the implications for us as conscious beings? Does Jung address this?

Yes the heart seems to unify, put things into more of a whole, a gestalt.

Gail

holding the opposites

If anyone's still interested in this topic, which "arose" when I misunderstood what someone was saying, I think the paragraphs 601-605 of Mysterium Coniunctionis might apply to it. I'll include para 601 in this note:

"As high as the Primordial Man stands on the one side, so low on the other is the sinful, empirical man. The phenomenon of contamination, which we meet so frequently in the psychology of dreams and of primitives, is no mere accident but is based on a common denominator; at some point the opposites prove to be identical, and this implies the possibility of their contamination. One of the commonest instances of this is the identity of the god and his animal attribute. Such paradoxes derive from the non-human quality of the god's and the animal's psychology. The divine psyche is as far above the human as the animal psyche reaches down into subhuman depths."

Jim

[Guest guest]

Oh, and do not slather one over the other--keep the piles separate!May you be filled with loving kindnessMay you be peaceful and at easeMay you be happyMay you be well.....

Two thoughts;-). Kashmiri Shaivism is based in non duality, and one of the techniques of "yoga nidra" is to meditate on two truly opposite things (best with no obvious middle ground). That process throws one into a profound meditative state. An example: hold burnished gold and excrement in the meditative mind at the same time and see what results. Best, Carol LouiseMay you be filled with loving kindnessMay you be peaceful and at easeMay you be happyMay you be well.....

Thanks Alice,

There seems to be an opposition built in to all of nature at the micro and macro levels , both a negative and a positive if you will, which exists throughout biological, chemical and the laws of physics. If so, the negative would come to the human brain from a "source" just as the positive does, but would not be caused by the human brain. Maybe the brain is the transmitter( the tv set) but the program both neg. and pos. is coming from another source? So much to think about....Interesting to ponder intellectually from time to time......

Yes, the brain compartmentalizes,does many types of operations to sort and analyze incoming data many operations are oppositional, but my question is, Is the source"energy" of life as embodied in all matter( yes, there are wave patterns in water and in rocks) actually both negative and positive in nature in and of itself ?And if so,what are the implications for us as conscious beings? Does Jung address this?

Yes the heart seems to unify, put things into more of a whole, a gestalt.

Gail

holding the opposites

If anyone's still interested in this topic, which "arose" when I misunderstood what someone was saying, I think the paragraphs 601-605 of Mysterium Coniunctionis might apply to it. I'll include para 601 in this note:

"As high as the Primordial Man stands on the one side, so low on the other is the sinful, empirical man. The phenomenon of contamination, which we meet so frequently in the psychology of dreams and of primitives, is no mere accident but is based on a common denominator; at some point the opposites prove to be identical, and this implies the possibility of their contamination. One of the commonest instances of this is the identity of the god and his animal attribute. Such paradoxes derive from the non-human quality of the god's and the animal's psychology. The divine psyche is as far above the human as the animal psyche reaches down into subhuman depths."

Jim

[Guest guest]

the Patronus 

[Guest guest]

what separates opposites is also actually what links them--

Take more time, cover less ground.

~ Merton - Dancing In The Waters of LifeAbove all, don't wish to become a future Buddha.

Your only concernas thought follows thought,should be to avoid clinging to any of them.

~Dogen Zenji (1200 - 1253) 

To

practice self-liberating thoughts, whatever thought arises in your mind, just look at it and let go and relax. Look straight at its essential nature and let go and relax; it will be self-liberated. Do not

concern yourself with what you are thinking about. Do not concern yourself with the object of your thoughts, whether it is a person or a thing. Just look at the essence of the thought itself.

~From The Melody of Dharmata: Verses on the Profound View of the Middle Way, by Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche, translated by Ari Goldfield & Jim , P.47.

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.

[Guest guest]

I understand that one can connect to deep understandings through eastern thought.However,I must admit, some part of my psyche would also like a scientific, metaphysical,logical,exploration in the tradition of the west. Perhaps when the two come together we will have a more complete picture?

Jung attempted to be scientifically grounded, logical, and plausable,when postualting theories and possibilities in describing the undescribable ie. his descent into the unconscious.I respect/admire this quality and because of both aspects(his personal experience and his subsequent application of the scientific theory of his day to his experiences), Jung's ideas have a ring of truth for me.And truth is what I'm looking for.

Taking that mode of inquiry into the 21st century is what I am attempting to do w/ my previous question. Any feedback on my question in the updated scientific,post Newtonian, metaphysical,transpersonal perspective is most appreciated, as well as the eastern mode.I try to be inclusive of all possibilities on big questions in the tradition of Bohm,Darwin,Davies,Grof,Jung,Planck,Searle,Sheldrake,Reich,Von Franz,Wilbur et al. Any additional feedback along these lines or any other lines appreciated as well .....Thanks to All.

Gail

holding the opposites

If anyone's still interested in this topic, which "arose" when I misunderstood what someone was saying, I think the paragraphs 601-605 of Mysterium Coniunctionis might apply to it. I'll include para 601 in this note:

"As high as the Primordial Man stands on the one side, so low on the other is the sinful, empirical man. The phenomenon of contamination, which we meet so frequently in the psychology of dreams and of primitives, is no mere accident but is based on a common denominator; at some point the opposites prove to be identical, and this implies the possibility of their contamination. One of the commonest instances of this is the identity of the god and his animal attribute. Such paradoxes derive from the non-human quality of the god's and the animal's psychology. The divine psyche is as far above the human as the animal psyche reaches down into subhuman depths."

Jim

[Guest guest]

Gail,Would you rephrase your question? I might be the only one, but the fact that no one has answered it to your satisfactionsuggests there might be some confusion as to what you're asking. Certainly there is on my part.

Jim

 

I understand that one can connect to deep understandings through eastern thought.However,I must admit, some part of my psyche would also like a scientific, metaphysical,logical,exploration in the tradition of the west. Perhaps when the two come together we will have a more complete picture?  

 

Jung attempted to be scientifically grounded, logical, and plausable,when postualting theories and possibilities in describing the undescribable ie. his descent into the unconscious.I respect/admire this quality and because of both aspects(his personal experience and his subsequent application of the scientific theory of his day to his experiences), Jung's ideas have a ring of truth for me.And truth is what I'm looking for.

 

Taking that mode of inquiry into the 21st century is what I am attempting to do w/ my previous question. Any feedback on my question in the updated scientific,post Newtonian, metaphysical,transpersonal perspective is most appreciated, as well as the eastern mode.I try to be inclusive of all possibilities on big questions in the tradition of Bohm,Darwin,Davies,Grof,Jung,Planck,Searle,Sheldrake,Reich,Von Franz,Wilbur et al. Any additional feedback along these lines or any other lines appreciated as well .....Thanks to All.

 

Gail

holding the opposites

 

If anyone's still interested in this topic, which " arose " when I misunderstood what someone was saying, I think the paragraphs 601-605 of Mysterium Coniunctionis might apply to it. I'll include para 601 in this note:

" As high as the Primordial Man stands on the one side, so low on the other is the sinful, empirical man. The phenomenon of contamination, which we meet so frequently in the psychology of dreams and of primitives, is no mere accident but is based on a common denominator; at some point the opposites prove to be identical, and this implies the possibility of their contamination. One of the commonest instances of this is the identity of the god and his animal attribute. Such paradoxes derive from the non-human quality of the god's and the animal's psychology. The divine psyche is as far above the human as the animal psyche reaches down into subhuman depths. "

Jim

[Guest guest]

Quickly, I've always felt Jung's approach was empirical from the standpoint of a physician. Equilibrium, homeostasis, as in functioning as compensation and compliment, as between uc and consciousnesses (which holds up well as we're realizing that we actually think in the uc and later sort out our arguments -- same for memory; we re-create it) .  The key is to consider the psyche as real as any physical thing, just as we accept energy and matter as both " real " .  The unknown forces at play -- as with physics, the quantum critical mass, etc. -- also part of the exploration. 

Empiricism as we apply it concerns making models. Always incomplete, never the thing itself. Think of how code works on the internet now: computers jump ahead, sees patterns without models. As with our minds, though we function on the Newtonian level in the everyday " common sense " world. Empiricism augments and extrapolates beyond the mere, the sensual. Jung expands our tool kit like a Tardis.  

 

I understand that one can connect to deep understandings through eastern thought.However,I must admit, some part of my psyche would also like a scientific, metaphysical,logical,exploration in the tradition of the west. Perhaps when the two come together we will have a more complete picture?  

 

Jung attempted to be scientifically grounded, logical, and plausable,when postualting theories and possibilities in describing the undescribable ie. his descent into the unconscious.I respect/admire this quality and because of both aspects(his personal experience and his subsequent application of the scientific theory of his day to his experiences), Jung's ideas have a ring of truth for me.And truth is what I'm looking for.

 

Taking that mode of inquiry into the 21st century is what I am attempting to do w/ my previous question. Any feedback on my question in the updated scientific,post Newtonian, metaphysical,transpersonal perspective is most appreciated, as well as the eastern mode.I try to be inclusive of all possibilities on big questions in the tradition of Bohm,Darwin,Davies,Grof,Jung,Planck,Searle,Sheldrake,Reich,Von Franz,Wilbur et al. Any additional feedback along these lines or any other lines appreciated as well .....Thanks to All.

 

Gail

holding the opposites

 

If anyone's still interested in this topic, which " arose " when I misunderstood what someone was saying, I think the paragraphs 601-605 of Mysterium Coniunctionis might apply to it. I'll include para 601 in this note:

" As high as the Primordial Man stands on the one side, so low on the other is the sinful, empirical man. The phenomenon of contamination, which we meet so frequently in the psychology of dreams and of primitives, is no mere accident but is based on a common denominator; at some point the opposites prove to be identical, and this implies the possibility of their contamination. One of the commonest instances of this is the identity of the god and his animal attribute. Such paradoxes derive from the non-human quality of the god's and the animal's psychology. The divine psyche is as far above the human as the animal psyche reaches down into subhuman depths. "

Jim

[Guest guest]

have a look at Abram The Spell of the Sensuous for a VERY interesting take on phenomenology, Husserl, Merleau-Ponty, etc., and what it'a for

--

Take more time, cover less ground.

~ Merton - Dancing In The Waters of LifeAbove all, don't wish to become a future Buddha.

Your only concernas thought follows thought,should be to avoid clinging to any of them.

~Dogen Zenji (1200 - 1253) 

To

practice self-liberating thoughts, whatever thought arises in your mind, just look at it and let go and relax. Look straight at its essential nature and let go and relax; it will be self-liberated. Do not

concern yourself with what you are thinking about. Do not concern yourself with the object of your thoughts, whether it is a person or a thing. Just look at the essence of the thought itself.

~From The Melody of Dharmata: Verses on the Profound View of the Middle Way, by Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche, translated by Ari Goldfield & Jim , P.47.

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.

[Guest guest]

Isn't there also a balance between light and dark matter in the universe from an astronomical perspective?May you be filled with loving kindnessMay you be peaceful and at easeMay you be happyMay you be well.....

have a look at Abram The Spell of the Sensuous for a VERY interesting take on phenomenology, Husserl, Merleau-Ponty, etc., and what it'a for

--

Take more time, cover less ground.

~ Merton - Dancing In The Waters of LifeAbove all, don't wish to become a future Buddha.

Your only concernas thought follows thought,should be to avoid clinging to any of them.

~Dogen Zenji (1200 - 1253)

To

practice self-liberating thoughts, whatever thought arises in your mind, just look at it and let go and relax. Look straight at its essential nature and let go and relax; it will be self-liberated. Do not

concern yourself with what you are thinking about. Do not concern yourself with the object of your thoughts, whether it is a person or a thing. Just look at the essence of the thought itself.

~From The Melody of Dharmata: Verses on the Profound View of the Middle Way, by Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche, translated by Ari Goldfield & Jim , P.47.

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.

[Guest guest]

Greetings

It has always seemed to me that the difference between eastern and western thought is the difference between collapsing everything into an undifferentiated singularity where gold and poop make a third thing in eastern thought and creating an oscillating balance between between them vibrating into a third thing like the waver that creates a third tone when certain tones are sounded in western in western thought. It is, I suppose a distinction without a difference, but it speaks to a difference in process or path--and the difference Jung spoke of between eastern and western thought that he felt kept western man from completely accessing eastern thought...

Just musing

holding the opposites

If anyone's still interested in this topic, which "arose" when I misunderstood what someone was saying, I think the paragraphs 601-605 of Mysterium Coniunctionis might apply to it. I'll include para 601 in this note:

"As high as the Primordial Man stands on the one side, so low on the other is the sinful, empirical man. The phenomenon of contamination, which we meet so frequently in the psychology of dreams and of primitives, is no mere accident but is based on a common denominator; at some point the opposites prove to be identical, and this implies the possibility of their contamination. One of the commonest instances of this is the identity of the god and his animal attribute. Such paradoxes derive from the non-human quality of the god's and the animal's psychology. The divine psyche is as far above the human as the animal psyche reaches down into subhuman depths."

Jim

[Guest guest]

Nice.

Jung, truly a philosopher in the old sense: lover of wisdom, trained

in the Muses, a healer and a teacher. This is a good grounding.

[Guest guest]

Oops, simile .

Re: holding the opposites

Nice.

Jung, truly a philosopher in the old sense: lover of wisdom, trained

in the Muses, a healer and a teacher. This is a good grounding.

[Guest guest]

It has always seemed to me that the difference between eastern and western thought is the difference between collapsing everything into an undifferentiated singularity where gold and poop make a third thing in eastern thought

*WHAAAAAAAAAAT?And they actually survived, these gold-n-pooper orientals?Good lord, woman! Perhaps you (and Jung, who based his evaluation of them on the texts of an American Theosophist) should examine eastern thought again... Perhaps even actually examine it as opposed to taking someone else's evaluation for granted.

--

Take more time, cover less ground.

~ Merton - Dancing In The Waters of LifeAbove all, don't wish to become a future Buddha.

Your only concernas thought follows thought,should be to avoid clinging to any of them.

~Dogen Zenji (1200 - 1253) 

To

practice self-liberating thoughts, whatever thought arises in your mind, just look at it and let go and relax. Look straight at its essential nature and let go and relax; it will be self-liberated. Do not

concern yourself with what you are thinking about. Do not concern yourself with the object of your thoughts, whether it is a person or a thing. Just look at the essence of the thought itself.

~From The Melody of Dharmata: Verses on the Profound View of the Middle Way, by Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche, translated by Ari Goldfield & Jim , P.47.

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.

[Guest guest]

I'm not sure this answers your question, but there is some very exciting research being done in physics where there is definitely some overlap on the horizon between the mathematical language of physics and Jung. 

May I suggest the work of people like Jack Sarfatti (http://stardrive.org), Nick Herbert (http://quantumtantra.blogspot.com/2011/07/quantum-magic-confirmed.html), and Henry Stapp, among others. 

I mean, just meditating on quantum entanglement for awhile blows my mind. Then you add to that the discussion of retro causality, that events in the future can influence the present, and it's all up for grabs. This article from Discover Magazine was recommended by Dr. Sarfatti on his email discussion list: http://discovermagazine.com/2010/apr/01-back-from-the-future.

I understand that one can connect to deep understandings through eastern thought.However,I must admit, some part of my psyche would also like a scientific, metaphysical,logical,exploration in the tradition of the west. Perhaps when the two come together we will have a more complete picture?  

 

Jung attempted to be scientifically grounded, logical, and plausable,when postualting theories and possibilities in describing the undescribable ie. his descent into the unconscious.I respect/admire this quality and because of both aspects(his personal experience and his subsequent application of the scientific theory of his day to his experiences), Jung's ideas have a ring of truth for me.And truth is what I'm looking for.

 

Taking that mode of inquiry into the 21st century is what I am attempting to do w/ my previous question. Any feedback on my question in the updated scientific,post Newtonian, metaphysical,transpersonal perspective is most appreciated, as well as the eastern mode.I try to be inclusive of all possibilities on big questions in the tradition of Bohm,Darwin,Davies,Grof,Jung,Planck,Searle,Sheldrake,Reich,Von Franz,Wilbur et al. Any additional feedback along these lines or any other lines appreciated as well .....Thanks to All.

 

Gail

holding the opposites

 

If anyone's still interested in this topic, which " arose " when I misunderstood what someone was saying, I think the paragraphs 601-605 of Mysterium Coniunctionis might apply to it. I'll include para 601 in this note:

" As high as the Primordial Man stands on the one side, so low on the other is the sinful, empirical man. The phenomenon of contamination, which we meet so frequently in the psychology of dreams and of primitives, is no mere accident but is based on a common denominator; at some point the opposites prove to be identical, and this implies the possibility of their contamination. One of the commonest instances of this is the identity of the god and his animal attribute. Such paradoxes derive from the non-human quality of the god's and the animal's psychology. The divine psyche is as far above the human as the animal psyche reaches down into subhuman depths. "

Jim

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the information and the links. It will be a welcome change when such matter becomes part of the mainstream knowledge. I, and I expect many others on this list, consider destiny a matter of course. In my case, this is mainly from realizing that a very strange period I've been living through for the past 3+ years was already documented in my dream journal of 16 years. I had always experienced a few dreams that correctly forecast events on certain dates, which seems to be de rigueur for people who keep track of dreams, but the scale of events leading up to this period I associate with destiny was unprecedented for me. 

The most curious event occurred last February, on the date I " saw " in a dream of December 2010. I am an optimist by nature, and expected something terrific. Instead I found myself driving on a long errand feeling terribly unsafe behind the wheel. This continued the whole time I was driving until, on the way back home and almost there, I saw two planks about a foot long each twirling end of end from catty corner me at an intersection. They came right across the road staying at the exact same level, which was eye level, until they struck my windshield and shattered it. They appeared to land in an empty lot to my right, but I couldn't stop to investigate, and was not even aware of the mystical implications (I have to say) until I was home and going over the event step by step. After telling someone about this I became ashamed, for I thought it sounded like I was giddy with mental stress. (I claimed a source that, to someone not Jungian or similar, would consider metaphysical.) That night I dreamt a man followed me from a room where I'd told a story people considered untrue, and told me he thought, or he knew (I wasn't sure which he said) that it was as I'd told it.

Just one more bit. When I referred back to the other dreams I'd had on the December night when I'd seen the February date, the preceding dream had been about seeing a spaceship descending and my thinking it was coming towards me. That reminded me of the two fascinating accounts I'd read on this list about UFO sightings. 

Jim

 

I'm not sure this answers your question, but there is some very exciting research being done in physics where there is definitely some overlap on the horizon between the mathematical language of physics and Jung. 

May I suggest the work of people like Jack Sarfatti (http://stardrive.org), Nick Herbert (http://quantumtantra.blogspot.com/2011/07/quantum-magic-confirmed.html), and Henry Stapp, among others. 

I mean, just meditating on quantum entanglement for awhile blows my mind. Then you add to that the discussion of retro causality, that events in the future can influence the present, and it's all up for grabs. This article from Discover Magazine was recommended by Dr. Sarfatti on his email discussion list: http://discovermagazine.com/2010/apr/01-back-from-the-future.

I understand that one can connect to deep understandings through eastern thought.However,I must admit, some part of my psyche would also like a scientific, metaphysical,logical,exploration in the tradition of the west. Perhaps when the two come together we will have a more complete picture?  

 

Jung attempted to be scientifically grounded, logical, and plausable,when postualting theories and possibilities in describing the undescribable ie. his descent into the unconscious.I respect/admire this quality and because of both aspects(his personal experience and his subsequent application of the scientific theory of his day to his experiences), Jung's ideas have a ring of truth for me.And truth is what I'm looking for.

 

Taking that mode of inquiry into the 21st century is what I am attempting to do w/ my previous question. Any feedback on my question in the updated scientific,post Newtonian, metaphysical,transpersonal perspective is most appreciated, as well as the eastern mode.I try to be inclusive of all possibilities on big questions in the tradition of Bohm,Darwin,Davies,Grof,Jung,Planck,Searle,Sheldrake,Reich,Von Franz,Wilbur et al. Any additional feedback along these lines or any other lines appreciated as well .....Thanks to All.

 

Gail

holding the opposites

 

If anyone's still interested in this topic, which " arose " when I misunderstood what someone was saying, I think the paragraphs 601-605 of Mysterium Coniunctionis might apply to it. I'll include para 601 in this note:

" As high as the Primordial Man stands on the one side, so low on the other is the sinful, empirical man. The phenomenon of contamination, which we meet so frequently in the psychology of dreams and of primitives, is no mere accident but is based on a common denominator; at some point the opposites prove to be identical, and this implies the possibility of their contamination. One of the commonest instances of this is the identity of the god and his animal attribute. Such paradoxes derive from the non-human quality of the god's and the animal's psychology. The divine psyche is as far above the human as the animal psyche reaches down into subhuman depths. "

Jim

[Guest guest]

I think most people have these experiences in their life. As with Intuition, simple feeling, dreams can be viewed as the unconscious speaking, an opportunity to step back, observe--as with Tarot or other exercises, a tool to change perspective, apprehend hidden thoughts. Know thyself, Delphi tells us. 

Which proves [your theory here]. One thing Jung strongly cautions about is the possible inflation, the self-fulfilling prophecy mode these experiences can engender. Hence, the humility that the academical model urges. Negative capability. 

Which in no way belittles the wonder or reality of your experience. 

 

Thanks for the information and the links. It will be a welcome change when such matter becomes part of the mainstream knowledge. I, and I expect many others on this list, consider destiny a matter of course. In my case, this is mainly from realizing that a very strange period I've been living through for the past 3+ years was already documented in my dream journal of 16 years. I had always experienced a few dreams that correctly forecast events on certain dates, which seems to be de rigueur for people who keep track of dreams, but the scale of events leading up to this period I associate with destiny was unprecedented for me. 

The most curious event occurred last February, on the date I " saw " in a dream of December 2010. I am an optimist by nature, and expected something terrific. Instead I found myself driving on a long errand feeling terribly unsafe behind the wheel. This continued the whole time I was driving until, on the way back home and almost there, I saw two planks about a foot long each twirling end of end from catty corner me at an intersection. They came right across the road staying at the exact same level, which was eye level, until they struck my windshield and shattered it. They appeared to land in an empty lot to my right, but I couldn't stop to investigate, and was not even aware of the mystical implications (I have to say) until I was home and going over the event step by step. After telling someone about this I became ashamed, for I thought it sounded like I was giddy with mental stress. (I claimed a source that, to someone not Jungian or similar, would consider metaphysical.) That night I dreamt a man followed me from a room where I'd told a story people considered untrue, and told me he thought, or he knew (I wasn't sure which he said) that it was as I'd told it.

Just one more bit. When I referred back to the other dreams I'd had on the December night when I'd seen the February date, the preceding dream had been about seeing a spaceship descending and my thinking it was coming towards me. That reminded me of the two fascinating accounts I'd read on this list about UFO sightings. 

Jim

 

I'm not sure this answers your question, but there is some very exciting research being done in physics where there is definitely some overlap on the horizon between the mathematical language of physics and Jung. 

May I suggest the work of people like Jack Sarfatti (http://stardrive.org), Nick Herbert (http://quantumtantra.blogspot.com/2011/07/quantum-magic-confirmed.html), and Henry Stapp, among others. 

I mean, just meditating on quantum entanglement for awhile blows my mind. Then you add to that the discussion of retro causality, that events in the future can influence the present, and it's all up for grabs. This article from Discover Magazine was recommended by Dr. Sarfatti on his email discussion list: http://discovermagazine.com/2010/apr/01-back-from-the-future.

I understand that one can connect to deep understandings through eastern thought.However,I must admit, some part of my psyche would also like a scientific, metaphysical,logical,exploration in the tradition of the west. Perhaps when the two come together we will have a more complete picture?  

 

Jung attempted to be scientifically grounded, logical, and plausable,when postualting theories and possibilities in describing the undescribable ie. his descent into the unconscious.I respect/admire this quality and because of both aspects(his personal experience and his subsequent application of the scientific theory of his day to his experiences), Jung's ideas have a ring of truth for me.And truth is what I'm looking for.

 

Taking that mode of inquiry into the 21st century is what I am attempting to do w/ my previous question. Any feedback on my question in the updated scientific,post Newtonian, metaphysical,transpersonal perspective is most appreciated, as well as the eastern mode.I try to be inclusive of all possibilities on big questions in the tradition of Bohm,Darwin,Davies,Grof,Jung,Planck,Searle,Sheldrake,Reich,Von Franz,Wilbur et al. Any additional feedback along these lines or any other lines appreciated as well .....Thanks to All.

 

Gail

holding the opposites

 

If anyone's still interested in this topic, which " arose " when I misunderstood what someone was saying, I think the paragraphs 601-605 of Mysterium Coniunctionis might apply to it. I'll include para 601 in this note:

" As high as the Primordial Man stands on the one side, so low on the other is the sinful, empirical man. The phenomenon of contamination, which we meet so frequently in the psychology of dreams and of primitives, is no mere accident but is based on a common denominator; at some point the opposites prove to be identical, and this implies the possibility of their contamination. One of the commonest instances of this is the identity of the god and his animal attribute. Such paradoxes derive from the non-human quality of the god's and the animal's psychology. The divine psyche is as far above the human as the animal psyche reaches down into subhuman depths. "

Jim

[Guest guest]

I understand humility. Is telling this showing inflation in your mind?

 

I think most people have these experiences in their life. As with Intuition, simple feeling, dreams can be viewed as the unconscious speaking, an opportunity to step back, observe--as with Tarot or other exercises, a tool to change perspective, apprehend hidden thoughts. Know thyself, Delphi tells us. 

Which proves [your theory here]. One thing Jung strongly cautions about is the possible inflation, the self-fulfilling prophecy mode these experiences can engender. Hence, the humility that the academical model urges. Negative capability. 

Which in no way belittles the wonder or reality of your experience. 

 

Thanks for the information and the links. It will be a welcome change when such matter becomes part of the mainstream knowledge. I, and I expect many others on this list, consider destiny a matter of course. In my case, this is mainly from realizing that a very strange period I've been living through for the past 3+ years was already documented in my dream journal of 16 years. I had always experienced a few dreams that correctly forecast events on certain dates, which seems to be de rigueur for people who keep track of dreams, but the scale of events leading up to this period I associate with destiny was unprecedented for me. 

The most curious event occurred last February, on the date I " saw " in a dream of December 2010. I am an optimist by nature, and expected something terrific. Instead I found myself driving on a long errand feeling terribly unsafe behind the wheel. This continued the whole time I was driving until, on the way back home and almost there, I saw two planks about a foot long each twirling end of end from catty corner me at an intersection. They came right across the road staying at the exact same level, which was eye level, until they struck my windshield and shattered it. They appeared to land in an empty lot to my right, but I couldn't stop to investigate, and was not even aware of the mystical implications (I have to say) until I was home and going over the event step by step. After telling someone about this I became ashamed, for I thought it sounded like I was giddy with mental stress. (I claimed a source that, to someone not Jungian or similar, would consider metaphysical.) That night I dreamt a man followed me from a room where I'd told a story people considered untrue, and told me he thought, or he knew (I wasn't sure which he said) that it was as I'd told it.

Just one more bit. When I referred back to the other dreams I'd had on the December night when I'd seen the February date, the preceding dream had been about seeing a spaceship descending and my thinking it was coming towards me. That reminded me of the two fascinating accounts I'd read on this list about UFO sightings. 

Jim

 

I'm not sure this answers your question, but there is some very exciting research being done in physics where there is definitely some overlap on the horizon between the mathematical language of physics and Jung. 

May I suggest the work of people like Jack Sarfatti (http://stardrive.org), Nick Herbert (http://quantumtantra.blogspot.com/2011/07/quantum-magic-confirmed.html), and Henry Stapp, among others. 

I mean, just meditating on quantum entanglement for awhile blows my mind. Then you add to that the discussion of retro causality, that events in the future can influence the present, and it's all up for grabs. This article from Discover Magazine was recommended by Dr. Sarfatti on his email discussion list: http://discovermagazine.com/2010/apr/01-back-from-the-future.

I understand that one can connect to deep understandings through eastern thought.However,I must admit, some part of my psyche would also like a scientific, metaphysical,logical,exploration in the tradition of the west. Perhaps when the two come together we will have a more complete picture?  

 

Jung attempted to be scientifically grounded, logical, and plausable,when postualting theories and possibilities in describing the undescribable ie. his descent into the unconscious.I respect/admire this quality and because of both aspects(his personal experience and his subsequent application of the scientific theory of his day to his experiences), Jung's ideas have a ring of truth for me.And truth is what I'm looking for.

 

Taking that mode of inquiry into the 21st century is what I am attempting to do w/ my previous question. Any feedback on my question in the updated scientific,post Newtonian, metaphysical,transpersonal perspective is most appreciated, as well as the eastern mode.I try to be inclusive of all possibilities on big questions in the tradition of Bohm,Darwin,Davies,Grof,Jung,Planck,Searle,Sheldrake,Reich,Von Franz,Wilbur et al. Any additional feedback along these lines or any other lines appreciated as well .....Thanks to All.

 

Gail

holding the opposites

 

If anyone's still interested in this topic, which " arose " when I misunderstood what someone was saying, I think the paragraphs 601-605 of Mysterium Coniunctionis might apply to it. I'll include para 601 in this note:

" As high as the Primordial Man stands on the one side, so low on the other is the sinful, empirical man. The phenomenon of contamination, which we meet so frequently in the psychology of dreams and of primitives, is no mere accident but is based on a common denominator; at some point the opposites prove to be identical, and this implies the possibility of their contamination. One of the commonest instances of this is the identity of the god and his animal attribute. Such paradoxes derive from the non-human quality of the god's and the animal's psychology. The divine psyche is as far above the human as the animal psyche reaches down into subhuman depths. "

Jim

[Guest guest]

That wasn't well articulated. I mean, do you think my relating this showed inflation? And if you think that, would you think that of anyone who told a story here they thought unusual? And if you think that, would you also suggest that they shut up, as you suggested to me? And if this is the case, would that explain why so few people are talking about interesting things on this list?

I understand humility. Is telling this showing inflation in your mind?

 

I think most people have these experiences in their life. As with Intuition, simple feeling, dreams can be viewed as the unconscious speaking, an opportunity to step back, observe--as with Tarot or other exercises, a tool to change perspective, apprehend hidden thoughts. Know thyself, Delphi tells us. 

Which proves [your theory here]. One thing Jung strongly cautions about is the possible inflation, the self-fulfilling prophecy mode these experiences can engender. Hence, the humility that the academical model urges. Negative capability. 

Which in no way belittles the wonder or reality of your experience. 

 

Thanks for the information and the links. It will be a welcome change when such matter becomes part of the mainstream knowledge. I, and I expect many others on this list, consider destiny a matter of course. In my case, this is mainly from realizing that a very strange period I've been living through for the past 3+ years was already documented in my dream journal of 16 years. I had always experienced a few dreams that correctly forecast events on certain dates, which seems to be de rigueur for people who keep track of dreams, but the scale of events leading up to this period I associate with destiny was unprecedented for me. 

The most curious event occurred last February, on the date I " saw " in a dream of December 2010. I am an optimist by nature, and expected something terrific. Instead I found myself driving on a long errand feeling terribly unsafe behind the wheel. This continued the whole time I was driving until, on the way back home and almost there, I saw two planks about a foot long each twirling end of end from catty corner me at an intersection. They came right across the road staying at the exact same level, which was eye level, until they struck my windshield and shattered it. They appeared to land in an empty lot to my right, but I couldn't stop to investigate, and was not even aware of the mystical implications (I have to say) until I was home and going over the event step by step. After telling someone about this I became ashamed, for I thought it sounded like I was giddy with mental stress. (I claimed a source that, to someone not Jungian or similar, would consider metaphysical.) That night I dreamt a man followed me from a room where I'd told a story people considered untrue, and told me he thought, or he knew (I wasn't sure which he said) that it was as I'd told it.

Just one more bit. When I referred back to the other dreams I'd had on the December night when I'd seen the February date, the preceding dream had been about seeing a spaceship descending and my thinking it was coming towards me. That reminded me of the two fascinating accounts I'd read on this list about UFO sightings. 

Jim

 

I'm not sure this answers your question, but there is some very exciting research being done in physics where there is definitely some overlap on the horizon between the mathematical language of physics and Jung. 

May I suggest the work of people like Jack Sarfatti (http://stardrive.org), Nick Herbert (http://quantumtantra.blogspot.com/2011/07/quantum-magic-confirmed.html), and Henry Stapp, among others. 

I mean, just meditating on quantum entanglement for awhile blows my mind. Then you add to that the discussion of retro causality, that events in the future can influence the present, and it's all up for grabs. This article from Discover Magazine was recommended by Dr. Sarfatti on his email discussion list: http://discovermagazine.com/2010/apr/01-back-from-the-future.

I understand that one can connect to deep understandings through eastern thought.However,I must admit, some part of my psyche would also like a scientific, metaphysical,logical,exploration in the tradition of the west. Perhaps when the two come together we will have a more complete picture?  

 

Jung attempted to be scientifically grounded, logical, and plausable,when postualting theories and possibilities in describing the undescribable ie. his descent into the unconscious.I respect/admire this quality and because of both aspects(his personal experience and his subsequent application of the scientific theory of his day to his experiences), Jung's ideas have a ring of truth for me.And truth is what I'm looking for.

 

Taking that mode of inquiry into the 21st century is what I am attempting to do w/ my previous question. Any feedback on my question in the updated scientific,post Newtonian, metaphysical,transpersonal perspective is most appreciated, as well as the eastern mode.I try to be inclusive of all possibilities on big questions in the tradition of Bohm,Darwin,Davies,Grof,Jung,Planck,Searle,Sheldrake,Reich,Von Franz,Wilbur et al. Any additional feedback along these lines or any other lines appreciated as well .....Thanks to All.

 

Gail

holding the opposites

 

If anyone's still interested in this topic, which " arose " when I misunderstood what someone was saying, I think the paragraphs 601-605 of Mysterium Coniunctionis might apply to it. I'll include para 601 in this note:

" As high as the Primordial Man stands on the one side, so low on the other is the sinful, empirical man. The phenomenon of contamination, which we meet so frequently in the psychology of dreams and of primitives, is no mere accident but is based on a common denominator; at some point the opposites prove to be identical, and this implies the possibility of their contamination. One of the commonest instances of this is the identity of the god and his animal attribute. Such paradoxes derive from the non-human quality of the god's and the animal's psychology. The divine psyche is as far above the human as the animal psyche reaches down into subhuman depths. "

Jim

[Guest guest]

Hi Steve - Do you blog? If so, please send your link. I don't know if I'll be able to understand what you say, for I'm apparently several intellectual levels lower, but a challenge like that is not life risking, just ego annihilating. 

I won't pretend to respond to your points because I don't think I understand you well, so I'll just pick out some words and my best guess as to your meaning. Self-analysis: yes, Jung did it on himself, so we know it can be done. Jung was brilliant, so one would assume that should leave out someone like me. But I found that, with what I could pick up from Jung, and with the guiding of the unconscious--more likely it was just being terribly interested and sticking around--I was led through an awful lot of confusion, up to the point where the ego had to take a larger burden for driving the process forward. I think this is the reason Jung said active imagination is required at a certain point. I was stuck on the opposites, hence I wrote my simple question, what does it mean " to hold " the opposites? And the response I got here, together with the movement it created in my unconscious, put me back-on-the-forward. As you said, " all the way stations of the symbolic-alchemical-inner journey are potentially, and potently, available [to anyone who wanders there]. "

You said about finding oneself (feeling oneself) between the opposites: " I say 'imposed' to suggest normally one doesn't gleefully run into these midpoints for which the experience feels can feel variously like 'being torn,' stretched between contradictory impulses, suffering a compromise, understanding having it both ways is impossible, having to make a decision where an explicit sacrifice is necessary. Etc.  No, often these tense middles are thrust upon oneself, unbidden. "

And I say yes, I assumed this was about sacrifice of one side. Of course that goes against the Jungian theory that one doesn't exclude the other side, but in my simple feeling-response that was what seemed required. And it just didn't work! Ultimately, what I have found--until somewhere down the road I learn I am wrong-- is that I have to adapt myself to the other side, and it to me. I would call it a more personal, individualistic attitude towards the other side, reflective now of ego ideals and practicalities as opposed to what I'd considered (incorrectly) as unconscious demands. (So it felt. Again, so mistaken I was.) That is probably saying nothing to whoever reads this, but that's as clear as I can make it and still keep it private. However, the situation was definitely " thrust upon " me, as you said, definitely " unbidden. " I was put into a real pickle that's lasted for 3 years and is still ongoing, and it is not a psychological issue! But it looks suspiciously like I was setup by an unconscious nixie.

I think my experience is much like yours as you described it: going slowly, and having to suffer, but " with clear intention " has not been my fortune to possess.Jim

 

Jim ,all,It's interesting, no fascinating to me, starting with the implicit original question, " How do you hold the tension of the opposites. " (You wrote, I continually fail to grasp how one " holds the opposites. " )

Then we, our group here, covers a lot of ground.The original question compelled me to go back into the indices in the volumes of the collected works, where I already knew the term opposites is crucial, and the references there are prolific. It turned out my handle on the conception was secure, yet I was reminded how rich the implications are, and how Jung developed this central concept to its mature status.

Noting this, I also thought about the concept of opposites in psychology 'proper,' as well as, for example its use following different viewpoints discoverable in other therapuetically-centered psychological perspectives. It's important in gestalt, in the thought of Ellis, , etc, and, is fundamental to all such perspectives. This should comes as no surprise of course, for our mind works by association, differentiation, comparative positioning, organization in arrays, distinct representations, etc. and on and on. (There is a technical caveat I won't introduce to my gloss here having to do with the distinction between description and actual biological (neural) mechanics.)

My field is adult experiential learning, and, one of the tools I invented uses oppositions and runs responses through my version of the stages of one experiential learning model, intention-exploration-discovery-insight. All of the tools, in some way, are about the possible learning found in the conjunction of a dominant and subordinate, or superior/inferior, or, habitual/novel. As a facilitator of such learning, if I have one methodological approach I lean on, it's this: use antipathy to create some pressure on sympathy; alternately, use some novelty to create some pressure on habit, or the usual path of least resistance.

I dug back into the references in the CW--like visiting old friends, and, at other times, I made notes about holding the tension of the opposites in what I'd say are the common and " garden variety " and practical situations, where we find ourselves in the middle betwixt two competing desires/aspects.

I made a conundrum for myself because after writing notes, I had created another (and maybe to some, a prolix) beast. Even to the point of chuckling as I recognized my strongly expressed 'dominant' intuition again identifying a vast web of connections, and then going in the direction of putting " all " together. ...really, a good row for me but not likely worthwhile for the, ummm, public.

***There are several extractions I'll make, and probably blog the bigger weave. How? The classical position in Analytic Psychology stands against self-help advice. This, as I see it, is largely because Jung follows the practitioner's ethos of psychoanalysis, especially with its view of the analytic relationship* and the transference. So, if one is doing self-analysis, there isn't, in this traditional view a practical answer to " how...? " However, the question remains if one is doing self-analysis, since, after all, if one is wandering around consciously in their unconscious, all the way stations of the symbolic-alchemical-inner journey are potentially, and potently, available.

Set aside the ironic historical fact of Jung's own self-analysis, and,regard the classical idea that this journey is best made with the aid of somebody who has already made their own way. At the same time, there is a slim self-help literature too. (So: this goes against the classical limit.) Hillman recognized it only makes sense that the journey " inside " will come upon people sensitive enough to be drawn forward (or backward,) consciously, and several-- A. , comes to mind--have provided something like a manual.

To me, to go 'meta' on this is to note here is a fine pair of opposites! Strict helper v. DIY.My own recognition moved me to consider the multiplicity of situations where, short of roping in an archetypal perspective, we can speak of our (implied by " my own, " ) common experiences of being in the pressurized middle between a wide variety of imposed oppositions. I say 'imposed' to suggest normally one doesn't gleefully run into these midpoints for which the experience feels can feel variously like 'being torn,' stretched between contradictory impulses, suffering a compromise, understanding having it both ways is impossible, having to make a decision where an explicit sacrifice is necessary. Etc.  No, often these tense middles are thrust upon oneself, unbidden.

Back to the classical perspective--where there are many many warnings, and, notifications of constraints, and, identifications of unproductive patterns. These are directed at different points to both analyst and analysand. I'll reduce one to its a bare suggestion: there is a natural tendency to employ the superior to vanquish the inferior. The point of self-deception is: one attaches to the sense one is doing the opposite. This is, as it is termed, a problem of one-sidedness**.

***My own experience about this 'how' is: go slowly, go with clear intention; recognize that it is overwhelmingly likely I'll have to suffer going deeply into what I don't wish for myself; don't want to fully recognize; don't want to learn how to begin to embrace. This is, for me at least, my experienced advisory to myself in the event of the normal, everyday kinds of conflicts and stuck-in the-middle situations. (...not presently a Jungian 'inner worker!')

highest regards to all,* see: Two Essays on Analytic Psychology, The Practice of Psychotherapy, and, The Structure and Dynamics of the Psyche, esp. the chapter, The Stages of Life.** see The Inferior Function (M.L. von Franz) in Jung's Typology

 

[Guest guest]

Sorry you took that wrong, Jim. Do you read Jung? Assumed you would recognize what I was saying. But not put well, I see from seeing your reaction. 

[Guest guest]

Jim, all,Well, my friend, I have come to integrate a few " new " pieces of my own self, that I discovered by recognizing and allowing, and yet the ways of being which allow for this I also had to discover.

So, a real paradox, I'd say.Consider, setting Jung aside, that a (or " the, " ) goal is: to know one's self, so as to be more who one (already) is.Then: to thine own self be true.

Although I know a dangerous little bit about a whole bunch, who I am truly, is not anything to do much with that mound of stuff. Among my numerous negative qualities, the smallest such quality trumps every last bit of anything *external* I know. Still, I enjoy my hobbies!

I had occasion to offer advice recently, and I told my friend, 'If it were me, I would be mindful to be more selfish.' I may well be wrong, but it seems to me my self-knowledge is predicated on putting me first. No doubt the opposite of this is another effective yoga too.

Alice's insight, archetypes are verbs, is pointed, deep, difficult. People are always doing something. Doing is being, or, 'being does.'. If one's unconscious is doing something, one doesn't know this because it's unconscious.

If there had been no Jung, many others, we'd still be on both the hook and promise of attentiveness to what one is doing.Being attentive is not easy for me, yet it has the nifty quality of being simple.

And, just being attentive also, in my experience, bridges self-knowledge with *being who one really is.*Another paradox, and my understanding applicable only to my self: I'm always who I really am, but, I'm not always *being and doing* who I really am.,

regards,