three kinds of business (was: i feel like such a loser)

August 2, 2008

Thanks Jon, I read the book, I liked most of it, and this is a nice quote.

There is, however, something that I don't hear talk about a lot

(though sometimes she does), and that is that we do not have any

choice in what/who we (believe we) are.

We are what we are, and that's perfect, nothing needs to be changed,

but moreover, nothing CAN be changed.

sometimes uses the example: have you ever felt

disgust/anger/love/whatever, and could change how you felt? Well, the

obvious answer is no, you can't.

Same is true for thoughts:

they come and go, we don't own them, and as soon as we believe we own

our thoughts, and start to identify with them, stress is just around

the corner.

I believe that , implicitly or explicitly, states that we don't

have a choice concerning our thoughts, we don't have a choice

concerning our feelings, and, since anything we do is intimately

connected with how we think or feel, we don't have a choice in what we

do either.

In this, she is in complete agreement with some other people, like

Tony Parsons (http://www.theopensecret.com),

(http://www.youtube.com/user/charlesdavidhayes), Leo Hartong

(http://www.awakeningtothedream.com/#), and many others.

It all amounts to the idea that we don't have free will.

I resisted the idea of not having a free will for quite some time, it

made me feel oppressed, and fatalistic, as if everything was

determined and there would be nothing I could do about it.

Also, not having free will seemed contrary to my experience.

Then, psychological researchers did experiments that resulted in

support for this same notion: that we believe to have free will, but

that actually it is just a story we make up about what's happening.

In light of all this, I thought I might give it a try to convince

myself of not having free will.

Not that I could do that, it just appeared to happen...:-) )

The first thing I noticed when I started to discard free will, was a

tremendous sense of liberation, completely contrary to what I expected.

But then, talking about 'whose business is... ', loses its meaning,

because not even 'my business' belongs to me.

Of course, talking about 'whose business is it' can still be very

powerful to remind ourselves of the things we don't have any control over.

It seems to me that even 'my business' is beyond my control, it's just

appears to be happening for me.

Whenever I believe that something is 'my business' (i.e. whether or

not I do the dishes), and I then happen to remind myself that, on the

contrary, this business has nothing to do with me, this will make me

feel relaxed, free and happy.

And perhaps the dishes just happen to be done... :-)

I find this perspective very liberating, and often makes me feel I'm

living in grace.

Such abundance of gifts, all this that's happening for me, makes me

feel giddy with happiness sometimes.

Eva

>

> Eva,

>

> You might like this - from `A Thousand Names From Joy' transcript:

>

> A successful human being is the one reading these words.

>

> Do you weigh 500 pounds? You're a success. That's your job, to weigh

> 500 pounds.

>

> You have cancer? That's your job, you are successfully doing that job

> right now. It doesn't mean it won't change.

>

> Can you be happy from here? Take on that job.

>

> You don't understand the words you're reading? Perfect! Your job is

> not to understand yet.

>

> You may experience tomorrow morning in the shower a blast of

> understanding, a profound experience and appreciation of yourself as a

> successful human being, just a glimpse of how precious and how

> necessary it is for you to be you right now.

>

> There's no mistake in the universe. There's a perfect age, height,

gender.

>

> You don't have a partner? Perfect.

>

> You have a partner whom you can't get along with? Perfect.

>

> You're a success. You have just met yourself with unconditional love.

>

> This deep understanding—that is success.

>

> When you understand this, there is nothing that can keep you from

> realizing that you're a success.

>

August 2, 2008

Hi Eva,

That has NOT been my experience at all. When I came to the belief I have no

choice that I just do what I do based on who I am, my life experiences etc it

was Incredibly liberating. It explained and took a lot of the pain out of

choices I'd made in the past.

You can also tell the same story for those you think have wronged you. For

example, if you have mother issues (and what woman doesn't!) you can say She had

no choice when she did such and such. She just did what she did.

A lot of the stories we cling to fall away if we remove choice from the person's

actions. Makes their " decisions " easier to understand and accept. To me the idea

of no choice is totally in keeping with the Work and is actually a very

important element of it.

Vivian

Re: three kinds of business (was: i feel like such a

loser)

Hi Vivian,

thanks.

I guess the absence of choice is not compatible with promoting the work.

Who would decide to do the work if there is no choice?

But then, using words to describe the wordless is just as impossible.

Eva

> >

> > Eva,

> >

> > You might like this - from `A Thousand Names From Joy' transcript:

> >

> > A successful human being is the one reading these words.

> >

> > Do you weigh 500 pounds? You're a success. That's your job, to weigh

> > 500 pounds.

> >

> > You have cancer? That's your job, you are successfully doing

that job

> > right now. It doesn't mean it won't change.

> >

> > Can you be happy from here? Take on that job.

> >

> > You don't understand the words you're reading? Perfect! Your job is

> > not to understand yet.

> >

> > You may experience tomorrow morning in the shower a blast of

> > understanding, a profound experience and appreciation of

yourself as a

> > successful human being, just a glimpse of how precious and how

> > necessary it is for you to be you right now.

> >

> > There's no mistake in the universe. There's a perfect age, height,

> gender.

> >

> > You don't have a partner? Perfect.

> >

> > You have a partner whom you can't get along with? Perfect.

> >

> > You're a success. You have just met yourself with unconditional

love.

> >

> > This deep understanding-that is success.

> >

> > When you understand this, there is nothing that can keep you from

> > realizing that you're a success.

> >

>

> No virus found in this incoming message.

> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com

> Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.10/1585 - Release Date:

8/1/2008 6:39 AM

>

August 2, 2008

hi Eva,

for me there's something in this regarding what the mind wants, which

seems to be pretty universal for everyone - peace, happiness,

security, freedom, etc, etc - of course, the ways of trying to get

these things vary from person to person.

When I was first introduced to the work, i wasn't sufficiently

interested in having these things in the way the work presented them -

i was still after the perfect life in more material ways.

later, when my mind was introduced to the work, it was different -

life wasn't working out the way i thought it should, in addition i

started with it because i believed it could save my relationship with

my partner - in other words, it was still based on my mind wanting

peace, happienss, security, freedom, etc - just packaged a different way.

in that sense there was no other choice for my mind - there didn't

seem to be any other alternatives.

of course, this all relates back to whether we believe we do the work,

or the work does us - just like any other thought or concept 'does' us.

with love,

jon

August 2, 2008

Hi Vivian,

I agree totally with what you're saying that the perspective of no

choice is incredibly liberating (which was my experience as well, as I

wrote in one of my previous messages).

The second point you make, I strongly agree with as well. If I feel

someone is doing something 'wrong', stress around that thought will

dissolve when I remind myself that there is no choice for that person

either.

I'm not saying that having no choice is incompatible with the Work,

but is incompatible with _promoting_ the Work, which is what

appears to be doing quite often.

If is convinced nobody has a choice, ever, it is hard to

recommend someone to do something, since everything is simply being

done; people have no choice in whether or not they do the Work.

In that sense, may have been reluctant to elaborate upon the

lack of free will in the setting of a School or workshop that appears

to revolve about encouraging people to do the Work.

But of course, I'm only guessing that that was the reason she didn't

pursue the subject.

It may have been something entirely different.

Eva

> > >

> > > Eva,

> > >

> > > You might like this - from `A Thousand Names From Joy' transcript:

> > >

> > > A successful human being is the one reading these words.

> > >

> > > Do you weigh 500 pounds? You're a success. That's your job, to

weigh

> > > 500 pounds.

> > >

> > > You have cancer? That's your job, you are successfully doing

> that job

> > > right now. It doesn't mean it won't change.

> > >

> > > Can you be happy from here? Take on that job.

> > >

> > > You don't understand the words you're reading? Perfect! Your

job is

> > > not to understand yet.

> > >

> > > You may experience tomorrow morning in the shower a blast of

> > > understanding, a profound experience and appreciation of

> yourself as a

> > > successful human being, just a glimpse of how precious and how

> > > necessary it is for you to be you right now.

> > >

> > > There's no mistake in the universe. There's a perfect age, height,

> > gender.

> > >

> > > You don't have a partner? Perfect.

> > >

> > > You have a partner whom you can't get along with? Perfect.

> > >

> > > You're a success. You have just met yourself with unconditional

> love.

> > >

> > > This deep understanding-that is success.

> > >

> > > When you understand this, there is nothing that can keep you from

> > > realizing that you're a success.

> > >

> >

> > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com

> > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.10/1585 - Release Date:

> 8/1/2008 6:39 AM

> >

August 2, 2008

Hi Eva,

I really like your point as to why may not have wanted to discuss lack of

choice. We can't know, but it works for me.

Lack of choice is incompatible with promoting the Work. Hmm. Interesting. To me

the essence of the Work is to let go of stories. Choice is a big big story that

most people are very attached to. Therefore, I believe you can indeed promote

the Work and believe we have no choice and that they are not mutually exclusive.

Doing the Work leads me to finding out what stories have controlled my life and

learning to drop them. Believing I choose to do things is just one of those

stories. I don't see why or anyone would find it difficult to promote the

Work as a way to drop stories and beliefs, including ones that tell you that you

choose to behave a certain way.

Vivian

Re: three kinds of business (was: i feel like such a

loser)

Hi Vivian,

I agree totally with what you're saying that the perspective of no

choice is incredibly liberating (which was my experience as well, as I

wrote in one of my previous messages).

The second point you make, I strongly agree with as well. If I feel

someone is doing something 'wrong', stress around that thought will

dissolve when I remind myself that there is no choice for that person

either.

I'm not saying that having no choice is incompatible with the Work,

but is incompatible with _promoting_ the Work, which is what

appears to be doing quite often.

If is convinced nobody has a choice, ever, it is hard to

recommend someone to do something, since everything is simply being

done; people have no choice in whether or not they do the Work.

In that sense, may have been reluctant to elaborate upon the

lack of free will in the setting of a School or workshop that appears

to revolve about encouraging people to do the Work.

But of course, I'm only guessing that that was the reason she didn't

pursue the subject.

It may have been something entirely different.

Eva

> > >

> > > Eva,

> > >

> > > You might like this - from `A Thousand Names From Joy' transcript:

> > >

> > > A successful human being is the one reading these words.

> > >

> > > Do you weigh 500 pounds? You're a success. That's your job, to

weigh

> > > 500 pounds.

> > >

> > > You have cancer? That's your job, you are successfully doing

> that job

> > > right now. It doesn't mean it won't change.

> > >

> > > Can you be happy from here? Take on that job.

> > >

> > > You don't understand the words you're reading? Perfect! Your

job is

> > > not to understand yet.

> > >

> > > You may experience tomorrow morning in the shower a blast of

> > > understanding, a profound experience and appreciation of

> yourself as a

> > > successful human being, just a glimpse of how precious and how

> > > necessary it is for you to be you right now.

> > >

> > > There's no mistake in the universe. There's a perfect age, height,

> > gender.

> > >

> > > You don't have a partner? Perfect.

> > >

> > > You have a partner whom you can't get along with? Perfect.

> > >

> > > You're a success. You have just met yourself with unconditional

> love.

> > >

> > > This deep understanding-that is success.

> > >

> > > When you understand this, there is nothing that can keep you from

> > > realizing that you're a success.

> > >

> >

> > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com

> > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.10/1585 - Release Date:

> 8/1/2008 6:39 AM

> >

August 2, 2008

Hi Jon,

thanks for this.

Are you saying that 'my business' is actually 'my mind's business'?

:-)

I did the school in 2003 in order to change myself in such a way so my

boyfriend would love me again.

I can't help but smile -- it seems so silly now.

Doing the Work has been very interesting, and I guess it made me more

open to considering the free willy thingy....the discovery there is no

free will, and what a relief that is!

Once I started to see that there is no free will, it was only a small

step to seeing there is no person either.

Because what's this person about if there is no free will?

The idea of a choice is the defining part of being a separate person.

Without it, the idea of a person starts to disappear into what's

happening in this moment.

And saying that " no two people ever met " , is starting to make

sense as well.

Eva

>

> hi Eva,

>

> for me there's something in this regarding what the mind wants, which

> seems to be pretty universal for everyone - peace, happiness,

> security, freedom, etc, etc - of course, the ways of trying to get

> these things vary from person to person.

>

> When I was first introduced to the work, i wasn't sufficiently

> interested in having these things in the way the work presented them -

> i was still after the perfect life in more material ways.

>

> later, when my mind was introduced to the work, it was different -

> life wasn't working out the way i thought it should, in addition i

> started with it because i believed it could save my relationship with

> my partner - in other words, it was still based on my mind wanting

> peace, happienss, security, freedom, etc - just packaged a different

way.

>

> in that sense there was no other choice for my mind - there didn't

> seem to be any other alternatives.

>

> of course, this all relates back to whether we believe we do the work,

> or the work does us - just like any other thought or concept 'does' us.

>

> with love,

>

> jon

>

August 2, 2008

Hi Vivian,

the point is....

if I am convinced that you have no choice at all, it's totally useless

to try to get you to do something. Because you will do what you will

do, there is nothing I can do about it.

So that's why I think that telling someone to do something (whether it

is about picking up their socks or doing the Work) is incompatible

with believing there is no choice.

Nevertheless, I grant that doing the Work has probably helped me

realize that there is no choice, so there I'm with you on that point.

Not sure if this is any clearer, but if it's not, don't bother, it's

not very important anyway....

Eva

>

> Hi Eva,

>

> I really like your point as to why may not have wanted to

discuss lack of choice. We can't know, but it works for me.

>

> Lack of choice is incompatible with promoting the Work. Hmm.

Interesting. To me the essence of the Work is to let go of stories.

Choice is a big big story that most people are very attached to.

Therefore, I believe you can indeed promote the Work and believe we

have no choice and that they are not mutually exclusive. Doing the

Work leads me to finding out what stories have controlled my life and

learning to drop them. Believing I choose to do things is just one of

those stories. I don't see why or anyone would find it difficult

to promote the Work as a way to drop stories and beliefs, including

ones that tell you that you choose to behave a certain way.

>

> Vivian

August 2, 2008

Hi Eva,

On the 'my business' and 'my mind's business' thing I don't know - I

wouldn't like to say one way or the other :-)

After a while this stuff get confusing for me and I remember to just

get back to what seems to work - doing the work when I am suffering.

With love,

Jon

> >

> > hi Eva,

> >

> > for me there's something in this regarding what the mind wants, which

> > seems to be pretty universal for everyone - peace, happiness,

> > security, freedom, etc, etc - of course, the ways of trying to get

> > these things vary from person to person.

> >

> > When I was first introduced to the work, i wasn't sufficiently

> > interested in having these things in the way the work presented them -

> > i was still after the perfect life in more material ways.

> >

> > later, when my mind was introduced to the work, it was different -

> > life wasn't working out the way i thought it should, in addition i

> > started with it because i believed it could save my relationship with

> > my partner - in other words, it was still based on my mind wanting

> > peace, happienss, security, freedom, etc - just packaged a different

> way.

> >

> > in that sense there was no other choice for my mind - there didn't

> > seem to be any other alternatives.

> >

> > of course, this all relates back to whether we believe we do the work,

> > or the work does us - just like any other thought or concept

'does' us.

> >

> > with love,

> >

> > jon

> >

>

August 2, 2008

> I'm not saying that having no choice is incompatible with the Work,

> but is incompatible with _promoting_ the Work, which is what

> appears to be doing quite often.

I think:

" I have a choice "

is just a thought, a story

and when that story is stresful

it can be inquired, and turn around

into: I dont have a choice

that explains the contrudicion

of katie's point of you that changes

At time she claims that she is not the doer

and at times she claims that

we make the choices in our life

and no one can pressure us to do anything

(there is a video in you-tube)

there is no contradiction

" I have a choice "

is just a thought

and a thought can always be turn around

:-)

August 2, 2008

Thanks, Tami...

I guess ultimately all thoughts can be undone (or turned around)

taking us beyond all contradictions.

Eva

>

> > I'm not saying that having no choice is incompatible with the Work,

> > but is incompatible with _promoting_ the Work, which is what

> > appears to be doing quite often.

>

> I think:

> " I have a choice "

> is just a thought, a story

> and when that story is stresful

> it can be inquired, and turn around

> into: I dont have a choice

>

> that explains the contrudicion

> of katie's point of you that changes

>

> At time she claims that she is not the doer

> and at times she claims that

> we make the choices in our life

> and no one can pressure us to do anything

> (there is a video in you-tube)

>

> there is no contradiction

> " I have a choice "

> is just a thought

> and a thought can always be turn around

>

> :-)

>

August 2, 2008

Hi Eva,

I think a sublety is being missed here. While we agree we do not have choice, we

still can change a behaviour because it may be within our personalities to

consider more than one option.

I've been playing a little online poker. My son is a professional player. He

looked at a record of what I've been doing and made some suggestions. While my

personality had me bidding cautiously, I am able to take in what he said and I

believe I'll be able to act upon it and make some adjustments. I'll still be the

same personality, but we are complex beings and I'll do what I do but with some

input to help guide me.

does that make sense?