Re: evolution of cons

[Guest guest]

Dear Carol,

How about we say that our Image of G-d changes as we human beings change.

Those who can grasp the idea that there is no image of g-d, that G-d is

impossible to imagine because our minds and souls cannot comprehend The

G-dhead will be satisfied and should be flexible enough to re-do the

individual Image of G-d as the old one no longer works.

It is not any church's job to " fulfill " people. What you bring into " church "

is what you will go out with, so to speak. A Church is an assembly of

people, a collective and therefore can never " fulfill " those who have

outgrown the image the church presents. They may, if they please start over

with a new experience or an old experience which still has Life...and

meaning for them.

G-d is a concept, I think , natural, of what life, the universe is all about

and how we fit in. He/She/It doesn't change, we do.( become more conscious?)

Religion is a social invention for cohesiveness and sometimes control. It

actually says little about G-d. What it preaches is hope and morality, " do

unto

others... " which makes a community happier.

Our spiritual path is between us as individuals since none of us has the

same image of G-d as any other. I think we take out of the stream of

" religious thought and wisdom " what we feel we need to give meaning for our

lives.

The only g-d who is dead is the one that never existed except in the minds

of men. They have concretized some beliefs and call that G-d.

I believe that is what Jung said and meant. Our christianity is morality

with a carrot and a stick...that is what has ended up left from a great

idea. To my mind, G-d has no image. I can find faint tracks in the lives of

others that may help me out, but my faith must be my own and be biult on the

experiences and meaning I have adopted for myself. many in the East seem

willing to do without an " actual " G-d and decide on Enlightenment in their

terms...whatever it means to them.

There is nothing wrong with any great religious tradition as long as nobody

uses theirs to hit people over the head with...and all of them in the end

arrive at the end to those who persevere within the Cloud of Unknowing.

As soon as human beings quit thinking they know who or what G-d is in

Himself, and what He/She/It wants from limited human beings we will be able

to concentrate on those experiences we have had and are given to us to find

our way to Truth. That is Wisdom. And that is faith.

Out images of g-d have always so far ended up as Idols. We cast them away

when we realize that. Those who cannot yet, will someday realize that G-d is

the Unseen G-d, the Good as we define it.

So G-d is not dead...The All never was....his usual images are being

discarded from lack of understanding or too much understanding. The church

in western culture tries to teach what it no longer certain of, and has not

individually experienced...therefore it dies....and we hope a new way of

adoration, praise, and thanksgiving to the Unknown, Unseen One will come, or

we will as often have to define our own Truth and be faithful to it,

instead.

That is how I see Jung's ideas developing...I intuit that " individuation " is

his path toward the G-d he feels and experiences.That is what gives him and

us our " meaning " in life here on this planet, since we cannot see G-d

and live. Many make do with images instead, drawn by their needs.

Anyway this is my interpretation of Jung's faith at the end...that is when

it mattered most to him...see MDR.

( My personal feeling is that Christ does not have to evolve, we just

haven't understood what He was teaching and saying. If we understood Him, he

would have done what He meant to do...Show us the Father....or whatever name

we give to the Ultimate Truth.

My value system is fine,(I don't always life up to it) and deals with my

modern life...when it becomes less meaningful, I will have to evolve and try

to grasp the next stage.My faith sustains me until we are all One or I have

a call to whatever comes next.)

Toni

evolution of cons

> Hi everyone...hope you had a good holiday.

>

>

>

> I'm writing an article for a magazine, a paragraph from which I include

> below. As far as I can tell this agrees with what Jung wrote; have I

> understood him correctly? A friend of mine thought Jung didn't really say

> this.

>

>

>

> Carol

>

>

>

>

>

> excerpt:

>

> What does it mean that god is dead? Why are so many people unfulfilled by

> the Church? The ancient Greeks would tell us it is because we live at a

> time

> of the transformation of god. The Greeks thought that every 2,000 years

> the

> god dies and is then reborn. Jung investigated this concept historically

> and

> psychologically. He found that indeed about every 2,000 years the

> god-image

> does seem to undergo a transformation. The birth of Christ was such an

> event. Now, 2,000 years have passed and again god wants evolve.

> Psychologically, god must evolve because the god-image represents our

> religious values and our value system that have become outworn and no

> longer

> suited for dealing with modern life.

[Guest guest]

Hi Toni...Thanks for your intelligent words. I agree, we can speak only of

the god-image. But I love the image, there I feel close to the feminine side

of god, the masterworkman, the yielder of primal forms...

Carol

For me there seems to be

Re: evolution of cons

> Dear Carol,

>

> How about we say that our Image of G-d changes as we human beings change.

> Those who can grasp the idea that there is no image of g-d, that G-d is

> impossible to imagine because our minds and souls cannot comprehend The

> G-dhead will be satisfied and should be flexible enough to re-do the

> individual Image of G-d as the old one no longer works.

>

> It is not any church's job to " fulfill " people. What you bring into

> " church "

> is what you will go out with, so to speak. A Church is an assembly of

> people, a collective and therefore can never " fulfill " those who have

> outgrown the image the church presents. They may, if they please start

> over

> with a new experience or an old experience which still has Life...and

> meaning for them.

>

> G-d is a concept, I think , natural, of what life, the universe is all

> about

> and how we fit in. He/She/It doesn't change, we do.( become more

> conscious?)

> Religion is a social invention for cohesiveness and sometimes control. It

> actually says little about G-d. What it preaches is hope and morality,

> " do

> unto

> others... " which makes a community happier.

>

> Our spiritual path is between us as individuals since none of us has the

> same image of G-d as any other. I think we take out of the stream of

> " religious thought and wisdom " what we feel we need to give meaning for

> our

> lives.

>

> The only g-d who is dead is the one that never existed except in the minds

> of men. They have concretized some beliefs and call that G-d.

>

> I believe that is what Jung said and meant. Our christianity is morality

> with a carrot and a stick...that is what has ended up left from a great

> idea. To my mind, G-d has no image. I can find faint tracks in the lives

> of

> others that may help me out, but my faith must be my own and be biult on

> the

> experiences and meaning I have adopted for myself. many in the East seem

> willing to do without an " actual " G-d and decide on Enlightenment in their

> terms...whatever it means to them.

>

> There is nothing wrong with any great religious tradition as long as

> nobody

> uses theirs to hit people over the head with...and all of them in the end

> arrive at the end to those who persevere within the Cloud of Unknowing.

>

> As soon as human beings quit thinking they know who or what G-d is in

> Himself, and what He/She/It wants from limited human beings we will be

> able

> to concentrate on those experiences we have had and are given to us to

> find

> our way to Truth. That is Wisdom. And that is faith.

>

> Out images of g-d have always so far ended up as Idols. We cast them away

> when we realize that. Those who cannot yet, will someday realize that G-d

> is

> the Unseen G-d, the Good as we define it.

>

> So G-d is not dead...The All never was....his usual images are being

> discarded from lack of understanding or too much understanding. The church

> in western culture tries to teach what it no longer certain of, and has

> not

> individually experienced...therefore it dies....and we hope a new way of

> adoration, praise, and thanksgiving to the Unknown, Unseen One will come,

> or

> we will as often have to define our own Truth and be faithful to it,

> instead.

>

> That is how I see Jung's ideas developing...I intuit that " individuation "

> is

> his path toward the G-d he feels and experiences.That is what gives him

> and

> us our " meaning " in life here on this planet, since we cannot see G-d

> and live. Many make do with images instead, drawn by their needs.

>

> Anyway this is my interpretation of Jung's faith at the end...that is when

> it mattered most to him...see MDR.

>

> ( My personal feeling is that Christ does not have to evolve, we just

> haven't understood what He was teaching and saying. If we understood Him,

> he

> would have done what He meant to do...Show us the Father....or whatever

> name

> we give to the Ultimate Truth.

> My value system is fine,(I don't always life up to it) and deals with my

> modern life...when it becomes less meaningful, I will have to evolve and

> try

> to grasp the next stage.My faith sustains me until we are all One or I

> have

> a call to whatever comes next.)

>

> Toni

[Guest guest]

Carol says: >>My article is for an artist's society. There are painters there who seem to be listening to the unconscious.<< --Do they have any online galleries? C. Lockharthttp://www.soulaquarium.netYahoo! Messenger: grailsnailBlog: http://shallowreflections.blogspot.com/"The most dangerous things in the world are immense accumulations of human beings who are manipulated by only a few heads." -- Carl Jung"If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." -- Aird"LOVE PEOPLE AND USE THINGS - NOT LOVE THINGS AND USE PEOPLE." -- Unknown"While many say only God has the authority to forgive men, men are quick to take it upon themselves to judge the sins of other men. Thus, the urge to punish has always had an unfair edge over the impulse for mercy." --

Unknown __________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Toni says: >>My personal feeling is that Christ does not have to evolve, we just haven't understood what He was teaching and saying.<< --I agree with just about everything you said in that post. I would distinguish between Christ evolving (all humans learn over time, even religious icons) and the image of Christ evolving. The image of Christ in the American imagination, and in much of the African Christian imagination, is still mixed with wrath and judgment. The Left Behind depiction of Jesus as a rampaging warrior is one of the most popular in pop Christian culture. Jesus as a gentle, merciful guide is secondary, often left on the shelf while the wrathful Jesus judges the world and demands its near total destruction. Christ the human being would have learned a few things if he'd lived longer, but most of what he said is still valid and worth practicing. I would disagree with

him mostly in areas where his teachings would now be outdated. The philosophy he taught is still relevant and important, with or without religious dogma attached relating to his divinity. I don't try to convert Christians out of thinking Jesus was the son of God, I just ask them to practice his teachings. Judaism contains most of the same philosophy, when it's authentic and not a tribal thing. Islam has the same foundation, but because Mohammad had to fight for dominance, and because the Islamic empires were carved apart by the West in the last century, the threads of mercy and transcendent humility are often obscured by more media-viable and violent forms of religious zeal. American Christians and Iranian Muslims will probably be the first to transcend the branches of monotheism and return to an "Abrahamic faith", which may go a long way toward creating peace in the Middle East. Abraham is one of the keys for overcoming the kind

of "ancient hatreds" that are inflamed by modern media tactics and revenge games (tit-for-tat reprisals that would have offended Abraham, Moses, Mohammad and Jesus alike). Beyond Abraham is the recognition that pagans and atheists are as much a part of the body of God as anyone else, but that's a more advanced learning that probably comes after the Abrahamic reunification of monotheisms and the restoration of nature out of "fallen" status. Eventually, intermarriage will mean no more Jews, Muslims or Christians, just people who believe in God and have too many personal ties to each tradition to consider them separate, superior or in opposition to one another. The current generation may be the one capable of that kind of heresy, a necessary violation of long-standing rules about who can marry whom, who deserves what reward or punishment, or who is favored or hated by God. It will offend adults when young Jews marry young Muslims or

Christians, Muslims marry Hindus, Catholics marry pantheists and gnostics, etc., but it's inevitable and it may become a "youth crusade", requring a re-evaluation of religious and tribal boundaries and identification with symbols unique to one group or another. Kids naturally recombine symbols, and they're not going to stop just because it offends adults. They might do it covertly, out of respect for the sensitivity of their parents, but they won't color inside the lines anymore. History and nature won't allow for cultures to become completely isolated, mixing is inevitable and resisting it is futile and often results in voiolence. So the notion that monotheisms are opposed to one another and irreconcileable is really a challenge to the young, to individuate and transform religious, ethnic and national identities and break the rules about who has to be what in order to belong. Just as musical styles start blending across genres when

stagnation is the alternative, religious and cultural groups also start to recombine when the alternative is cultural stagnation or unending conflict. Kids in the US, Iran and Israel are about ready to override the paranoia and justifications their parents cling to, and they will find ways to cross lines, blur boundaries and break down walls. The level of hostility and fundamentalist bullying in the world requires a compensating force. With recent developments in communications technology, it is now possible for a small group to influence global media, take down rulers who abuse their authority, or cross lines of battle and talk directly to the "enemy". When the concept of Abrahamic unity combines with the ability and inclination to interact with enemies, there will be dramatic changes in how nations interact, and it may lead to a viable peace in the Middle East, when cynicism and resignation fade out and new energy pours into the collective imagination and media

system. History always overrides the plans of human beings, when their plans are built on shaky foundations. Much of what has been considered pious and religious behavior has been nothing more than xenophobia and tribal pride, and nature will wash all that away and require our species to learn to be human, rather than identifying with one culture and one set of historical narratives. C. Lockharthttp://www.soulaquarium.netYahoo! Messenger: grailsnailBlog: http://shallowreflections.blogspot.com/"The most dangerous things in the world are immense accumulations of human beings who are manipulated by only a few heads." -- Carl Jung"If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." -- Aird"LOVE PEOPLE AND USE THINGS - NOT LOVE THINGS AND USE PEOPLE." -- Unknown"While many say only God has the authority to forgive men, men are

quick to take it upon themselves to judge the sins of other men. Thus, the urge to punish has always had an unfair edge over the impulse for mercy." -- Unknown __________________________________________________