Re: Training

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

I have been reading your e-mails since you came and found them very interesting, and you so very convinced.It seems you have had much healing.

You finally got my attention. I am a devote of Jung, I might add.

This "essence" cannot be real if it comes from the human being,if i understood you correctly, in my estimation. Whatever it is,as you write:

"

One of the central goals of Archetypal DreamWorks is to create the capacity in an individual to feel and experience his or her unique essence. Essence is an individual’s particular capacity to feel God’s love in a direct and personal way, living in the underlying truth of God’s existence. This state of being allows an individual to be in conversation with the Divine through an intimate relationship with God. "

In my opinion we are born with the capacity to feel G-d's love and do not need a special course in how to proceed to live the underlying truth of G-d's existence. Good heavens! what did we do all these centuries before your people started inventing this system?

Let's be clear, to spiritual people everywhere G-d has bee available to love and to know one is loved. The capacity comes from G-d, not a workshop, and is in Christian terms called "grace".The Jews have a number of terms for the same. This is not attainable by human will according to Christianity, and only attainable by prayer and meditation in other traditions and religions.

I am with Jung, of course , that knowledge of self and consciousness makes this a work in progress, but to claim a dream-workshop or whatever can give people "the capacity" is in my personal opinion hubris of an extreme....It claims that G-d's initiative is and can be usurped by any "workshop" and human knowledge is all that is needed.

I hate to disappoint all those who think this way, but I find being "in conversation" with the One to be a gift I can and have received from the only place it can be given. I do not need to attend a workshop or read a book...in fact I dispute the facts you state, not of what you experienced, but where the experience originated from.

But then, what do I know.....only my deep understanding of the traditions of western mysticism, and the Church of Christianity and Jewish mysticism, and some knowledge of Eastern meditation as well as western. To do away with "grace" or the initiative of G-d seems to me personally a great matter of pride and lack of depth in this "depth psychology".

I worry too, about those who have very or relatively recently found this "truth", and think this is all it takes....no invitation from the All, the One we call G-d.

Now please understand this is my own personal opinion derived from years of experience, personal experience, and watching those of others who have been on this walk for lifetimes.

I do not have the Truth and do not deny other paths to it. I just find your post startling, and unlike anything I have learned or experienced in some 76 years on my spiritual path.

In closing I am in thought about your "pathologies" as you term them. Did you know how many so called "saints" mystics and Masters have attained great grace with "pathologies", often obvious to those around them? No one escapes human struggle and life with one's "shadow".WE all have shadows, we must have to be whole. But we do not have to be completely whole or perfect, by any means for the grace of G-d to flow through us...or all of us would immediately have to turn to your workshop to be" healed"of our "pathologies." which of course could never happen.

I understand what going through Jungian analysis is like. I went that route for 7 and a half years, and that was almost 20 years ago when I began. Yes it was difficult and painful on occasion, but a Jungian analyst knows that her/his love and acceptance of her patient/client makes it a joyous experience at the end.One emerges changed. That is what transference and countertransference a la Jung can accomplish. Of course self awareness and consciousness is the end desired according to Jung.

Fear is the one thing that "conversations" or real communion with G-d abolishes. That is how we know how much we are loved. And it is the only thing ever that can remove fear. No amount of rationalization, optimism, positive thinking, or workshops can remove that deep human fear imbedded into most of us just from living, and replace it with the love of G-d he/she/it first gave us. FIRST! before we even knew it or could ask for it...and certainly could never be worthy of...ever.

I will continue to take the freely given, totally unannounced grace of G-d to any of what you term as "essence"

Again my opinion and my experience is all that I can speak from.

Toni

Don't let some unpleasant moments with not perfect "Jungians" sour you on Jung and his works. His works still speak truth.

Training

Dear Beatrice,

Your e-mail resonates with me and here’s why.

I too wanted to become a Jungian analyst, but the admissions director at the Institute in New York told me on the phone that I wasn’t qualified because I was too old and had no clinical experience (this was about 8 years ago). He even said that my graduate psych degree was “worthless.” I couldn’t believe he was talking that way and I was deeply hurt, to the point where I never even applied. Shame on me for my cowardice, but that’s the way I was at the time, ready and willing to believe my own lack of self-worth.

Later I applied to a different Jung institute and was provisionally accepted, but I decided not to attend because I had gotten involved in a new career. Perhaps I was again feeling my unworthiness and was afraid to try.

I was still toying with the idea of becoming a Jungian analyst when I moved to Vermont and began archetypal dreamwork therapy with Marc Bregman (www.northofeden.com).

When Marc began offering training for therapists and teachers I signed up and soon found myself quite overwhelmed by the possibility of truly plumbing the depths of the psyche in a way my previous analysis had only given me a tiny taste of. I’ve now been doing this work for 4 ½ years, steadily growing in my awareness of the child self and the Divine within. This training is rigorous and demanding; frequently terrifying in its acuteness and integrity. I have had to face my pathologies head-on, and although I’ve often turned away in terror and despair, I keep coming back. The rewards are constant and on-going and the fear, which makes me want to run and hide, is also the gateway to ever more consciousness.

In the first chapter of “The Deep Well Tapes,” Marc Bregman, Sue Scavo and Ellen Keene, (available via www.amazon.com and elsewhere) wrote:

One of the central goals of Archetypal Dreamwork is to create the capacity in an individual to feel and experience his or her unique essence. Essence is an individual’s particular capacity to feel God’s love in a direct and personal way, living in the underlying truth of God’s existence. This state of being allows an individual to be in conversation with the Divine through an intimate relationship with God.

A person in essence has the heart that can know God. Through the psyche, the potential exists in all of us to have an open doorway to another dimension - God’s dimension, the Archetypal realm. Dreams are a portal to God - as portals, they reveal how God sees each individual.

A therapist, one who works with clients and their dreams, can only dare to know what God is showing a client through a dream by standing solidly in his/her own connection to essence.

If I were still in the semi-unconscious state where I first approached the Jung Institute years ago I would not have been able to “get” what this passage references. I was still very much in my head, processing the experience even of my dreams in a dry, intellectual way that didn’t touch the emptiness in my soul or the unique essence of my being, what Jung calls “individuation.” I knew I wasn’t individuated, and when I was being honest with myself, despaired of ever experiencing it. Now I can see that individuation is a possibility, provided I consistently work hard and with honesty, to get past the pathologies that have dogged me since childhood, so I can be in essence.

The dreamwork training at North of Eden is outlined on the website. Before one begins the training, they first have to work with an archetypal dream therapist, see the website. If this work is for them the dreams will show it clearly.

If you care to share more about your experience on this list, I welcome the dialogue with you and will respond in kind.

Peace,

From: JUNG-FIRE [mailto:JUNG-FIRE ] On Behalf Of helena729Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 10:39 AMTo: JUNG-FIRE Subject: Jungian Training

I was interested in what fa said about her IGAP training. I also want to be a Jungian analyst, but my training school keeps talking about the "experience" of their training, as though it were a different thing from the Jungian training advertised in their brochure (which I responded to). I feel quite sad too, at how Jung is rejected in many ways on the archetypal level, under the ethos of the training school identity which in my school takes the form of obedience to rules which constitute their type of analyst. I needed to find something with that old feeling (which is still new and vibrant to me) of the Jung I experienced in the complete works and others' memories of him. I came to the conclusion that I just needed to follow my dreams, and one led me somewhere ... Beatrice.

[Guest guest]

Hi Toni,

I am going to try throwing my two cents in here from my own experience

in the work that has been talking about.

I agree with much of what you say. There is no such thing as a quick fix

and there is no retreat put on by anyone that is going to do more than

help or begin to help develop the capacity to, as you put it " know that

one is loved " .

You write:

>

> I hate to disappoint all those who think this way, but I find being

> " in conversation " with the One to be a gift I can and have received

> from the only place it can be given. I do not need to attend a

> workshop or read a book...in fact I dispute the facts you state, not

> of what you experienced, but where the experience originated from.

>

I do not find this disappointing at all. For me personally that

conversation did not begin in a real way until I included the

conversation that was happening for me at night. Like , I sought

for many years for a way to deepen that conversation and I am grateful

to have found a way that works for me to have that. I still consider

myself a beginner in what I believe to be a life long journey. The

retreats and the books about the dream work only help in that they

support me in that conversation. It has been a huge gift for me to

witness others in their own work of finding out what having that

conversation looks like for them.

There may be a day when I don't need this kind of support in the way

that I do now, where my faith will be deep enough that I don't need what

you call " a special course " . But at the moment I am glad to have learned

the humility to know that I do right now. My own spiritual tradition has

not provided me with the same faith that you have. I could speak more to

that but I am afraid that my own experience of " what did we do all these

centuries before your people started inventing this system " is so

negative that it would come across as sarcastic and I don't want to do

that.

Essence as uses it, is the state where my own psychological issues

don't keep me from the grace that you speak of. You are of course

correct that we are all born with the capacity to feel God's love. I

assume that we would all agree that most people have lost the capacity

to live in that place very deeply. For me, the " invitation from the All,

from the one we call God " came in my dreams. What I have needed to learn

to have the capacity to accept that invitation also came in my dreams.

Sincerely,

Bill

toni wrote:

>

> Dear ,

> I have been reading your e-mails since you came and found them very

> interesting, and you so very convinced.It seems you have had much healing.

> You finally got my attention. I am a devote of Jung, I might add.

> This " essence " cannot be real if it comes from the human being,if i

> understood you correctly, in my estimation. Whatever it is,as you write:

> "

>

> /One of the central goals of Archetypal DreamWorks is to create the

> capacity in an individual to feel and experience his or her unique

> essence. Essence is an individual’s particular capacity to feel God’s

> love in a direct and personal way, living in the underlying truth of

> God’s existence. This state of being allows an individual to be in

> conversation with the Divine through an intimate relationship with God. " /

>

> //

>

> In my opinion we are born with the capacity to feel G-d's love and do

> not need a special course in how to proceed to live the underlying

> truth of G-d's existence. Good heavens! what did we do all these

> centuries before your people started inventing this system?

>

> Let's be clear, to spiritual people everywhere G-d has bee available

> to love and to know one is loved. The capacity comes from G-d, not a

> workshop, and is in Christian terms called " grace " .The Jews have a

> number of terms for the same. This is not attainable by human will

> according to Christianity, and only attainable by prayer and

> meditation in other traditions and religions.

>

> I am with Jung, of course , that knowledge of self and consciousness

> makes this a work in progress, but to claim a dream-workshop or

> whatever can give people " the capacity " is in my personal opinion

> hubris of an extreme....It claims that G-d's initiative is and can be

> usurped by any " workshop " and human knowledge is all that is needed.

>

> I hate to disappoint all those who think this way, but I find being

> " in conversation " with the One to be a gift I can and have received

> from the only place it can be given. I do not need to attend a

> workshop or read a book...in fact I dispute the facts you state, not

> of what you experienced, but where the experience originated from.

>

> But then, what do I know.....only my deep understanding of the

> traditions of western mysticism, and the Church of Christianity and

> Jewish mysticism, and some knowledge of Eastern meditation as well as

> western. To do away with " grace " or the initiative of G-d seems to me

> personally a great matter of pride and lack of depth in this " depth

> psychology " .

>

> I worry too, about those who have very or relatively recently found

> this " truth " , and think this is all it takes....no invitation from the

> All, the One we call G-d.

>

> Now please understand this is my own personal opinion derived from

> years of experience, personal experience, and watching those of others

> who have been on this walk for lifetimes.

>

> I do not have the Truth and do not deny other paths to it. I just find

> your post startling, and unlike anything I have learned or experienced

> in some 76 years on my spiritual path.

>

> In closing I am in thought about your " pathologies " as you term them.

> Did you know how many so called " saints " mystics and Masters have

> attained great grace with " pathologies " , often obvious to those around

> them? No one escapes human struggle and life with one's " shadow " .WE

> all have shadows, we must have to be whole. But we do not have to be

> completely whole or perfect, by any means for the grace of G-d to flow

> through us...or all of us would immediately have to turn to your

> workshop to be " healed " of our " pathologies. " which of course could

> never happen.

>

> I understand what going through Jungian analysis is like. I went that

> route for 7 and a half years, and that was almost 20 years ago when I

> began. Yes it was difficult and painful on occasion, but a Jungian

> analyst knows that her/his love and acceptance of her patient/client

> makes it a joyous experience at the end.One emerges changed. That is

> what transference and countertransference a la Jung can accomplish. Of

> course self awareness and consciousness is the end desired according

> to Jung.

>

> Fear is the one thing that " conversations " or real communion with G-d

> abolishes. That is how we know how much we are loved. And it is the

> only thing ever that can remove fear. No amount of rationalization,

> optimism, positive thinking, or workshops can remove that deep human

> fear imbedded into most of us just from living, and replace it with

> the love of G-d he/she/it first gave us. FIRST! before we even knew it

> or could ask for it...and certainly could never be worthy of...ever.

>

> I will continue to take the freely given, totally unannounced grace of

> G-d to any of what you term as " essence "

>

> Again my opinion and my experience is all that I can speak from.

>

> Toni

>

> Don't let some unpleasant moments with not perfect " Jungians " sour you

> on Jung and his works. His works still speak truth.

>

> * Jungian Training

>

> I was interested in what fa said about her IGAP training. I also

> want to be a Jungian analyst, but my training school keeps talking

> about the " experience " of their training, as though it were a

> different

> thing from the Jungian training advertised in their brochure (which I

> responded to). I feel quite sad too, at how Jung is rejected in many

> ways on the archetypal level, under the ethos of the training school

> identity which in my school takes the form of obedience to rules

> which

> constitute their type of analyst. I needed to find something with

> that

> old feeling (which is still new and vibrant to me) of the Jung I

> experienced in the complete works and others' memories of him. I came

> to the conclusion that I just needed to follow my dreams, and one led

> me somewhere ...

>

> Beatrice.

>

>