Re: new flat question - Industrial cleaning to mold free

May 26, 2009

At 10:39 AM 5/26/2009, you wrote:

> " mycotoxins, if any, will go away in time. " I have NEVER read that

>before, can you elaborate? How much time? If that is so, why are

>there so many of us that cannot return to our homes after exposure

>without severe reaction? I sure hope you are right, as that would

>give me hope to go back to my home one day. D

I can now clean a home free of all mold, spores and mold " by-products. "

By products is what many of us are also sensitive to. Carl gave an long

list of what these by products are in the Ozone thread. Basicly, dead

mold is still dangerous, from it's " parts, " like cell walls, DNA, RNA, and

other molecules that were inside the mold colony.

What I have found is cleaning twice is needed. And I am not talking

the clean you typically do. I'm talking industrial level, at least for the

second, final cleaning. Why twice? The mold byproducts ***coat***

EVERYTHING, and cleaning the ceiling first is wise, then walls, then

the inside of closets (including the ceiling in the closet, and the walls,

including the inside of the doors), and finally the floor.

However, by the time you have finished the floor, the ceiling has gotten

a faint coating on it from all the other items being cleaned. So, an

initial quick cleaning to remove all " dust " and " particles " from all

surfaces, vacuum very well, changing/cleaning the brush bristles

as they will spread mold by product molecules to everything they

touch.

Then the industrial cleaning is done with TSP with cotton towels, lots

of them, dozens. Why? A fresh cloth " surface " is need for each and

every wipe. Ditto when rinsing. And drying. So, hundreds of cotton

towels ought to be used.

And before you do even the first cleaning, all the window sills must

be cleaned, including the bottom sill's water drain outlets to the outside.

Yes, that's right, you need to get the window tracks clean, including

the top and side, and even remove the windows and clean them all

over. Why? Air pressure takes dust into the cracks between the

window and the sill and accumulates there. When the wind direction

reverses, it blows back into the home.

The doors all have a bottom riser (I forget it's name), and these must

be removed (screwed down), and LOOK at all that DIRT!!! Even the

outside doors must be done.

And the door itself must be cleaned, the top of it and the hinge side as

well. And the door must be removed, and the bottom of it cleaned.

The hinges need to be clean when the door is off them.

Rolling closet doors need to be removed and their bottoms and tops

cleaned. The tracks they roll in need to be cleaned, both bottom and

top, and the top is very hard.

Sliding doors get the same treatment. Remove them to clean them

including the top, that is VERY DIRTY.

Shower doors must be removed, and sliding door tracks need to be

cleaned, and it's very hard to reach there!!!

See, INDUSTRIAL cleaning.

And after you have cleaned it twice, go in and glue all the wall to floor

joints, and inspect under the stove, and dishwasher. Glue the cabinets

to the walls, particularly under the sink, inside the cabinet, as that space

under the sink cabinet bottom is DEADLY DANGEROUS MOLDY, and

it must be sealed up, the mold will die from lack of moisture.

And all adjoining cabinets must be glued to the wall, as the space

under the kitchen cabinets does not have wood dividers, and if they

do, they leak air between them.

Hmm, you might want to glue before cleaning. Why? The gluing

exposes mold air spaces to the main air space of the room.

Then, do it all again in 3-4 months.

That is, inspect all glue joints, for holes (there will be holes, as the

glue shrinks and they open up), missed joints, ... and clean it all

again.

Oh, and do not forget as you move the furniture back in, it must

be cleaned first. All over, especially the feet.

And I have only list about 1/3rd of what needs to be cleaned.

I do this to every home I move into. It takes about 2 days in an

empty home. If you have possessions, then it's about 1 room a day.

You can do 2 rooms, but after one room, all that arm reaching will have

you sleeping early.

May 27, 2009

At 06:39 PM 5/26/2009, you wrote:

>, you made some good points, but I have to add that no two

>situations are the same. The remediation plan has to be

>specifically tailored to each situation---depending on the extent of

>the water damage and mold, the types of mold, whether the mold is

>airborne, how long the water damage has been going on, the health

>issues of the family who own the house (do any of the occupants have

>asthma or lung disease, immune system problems such as organ

>transplant, etc.) and so on. In our situation, our house was

>cleaned or remediated numerous times over several months and the

>house was still toxic.

I agree. My post was just for " cleaning " a home to be safe. Any home, not one

that has been damaged. Damaged homes are different in that internal fixes are

necessary. I could list those, no time now. The reason my post did

not address

your specific concerns is I do not always " follow " closely the

thread, as replying

to 10 or so posts a day (more than just this one list), means 30-50 threads a

week. Way too much to keep track of " each " one.

So, to address you concern about proper remediation... yes, only a

fellow canary

or yourself is likely to be able to figure out what the next " area "

to fix is. I can

walk into almost any home and spot 2-5 things per room to fix, after

my 15 years

of self training. Also, my nose tells me. I'm now a trained sniffer

and can locate

most any source. The deal here is after 1 source, in 15 seconds, my nose may

have stopped working. So, the next day I enter again. It can take 3-5 days.

Another issue is that hypersensitivity to one substance, where there

is a constant

exposure can lead to temporary hypersensitivity to another substance,

then another.

I've been through this. Read many sources of info on it. And how to cure it.

But I must go now to a meeting. If you reply, then do ask me to find

another post

to a different list about hypersensitivity and it's many issues.

Re-enter the home only after two things:

1) Initial hypersensitivity is cured (not just by avoidance)

2) or hypersensitivity to the secondary items are gone,

and the home has been completely cleaned of the initial

hypersensitivity substance. COMPLETELY. Including

outside, and the entire neighborhood.

More if request. Do target with some questions.

May 27, 2009

No need to take this any further. I just wanted to make sure that new members

on Sickbuildings knew that there is a lot more to consider and some houses can't

be made safe after 2 cleanings. I try to keep in mind that we have new members

joining the group all the time. Besides, it's fun to drive the insurance

company trolls crazy!!

________________________________

From: <pete-@...>

Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 7:03:05 PM

Subject: Re: [] Re: new flat question - Industrial cleaning to

mold free

At 06:39 PM 5/26/2009, you wrote:

>, you made some good points, but I have to add that no two

>situations are the same. The remediation plan has to be

>specifically tailored to each situation--- depending on the extent of

>the water damage and mold, the types of mold, whether the mold is

>airborne, how long the water damage has been going on, the health

>issues of the family who own the house (do any of the occupants have

>asthma or lung disease, immune system problems such as organ

>transplant, etc.) and so on. In our situation, our house was

>cleaned or remediated numerous times over several months and the

>house was still toxic.

I agree. My post was just for " cleaning " a home to be safe. Any home, not one

that has been damaged. Damaged homes are different in that internal fixes are

necessary. I could list those, no time now. The reason my post did

not address

your specific concerns is I do not always " follow " closely the

thread, as replying

to 10 or so posts a day (more than just this one list), means 30-50 threads a

week. Way too much to keep track of " each " one.

So, to address you concern about proper remediation. .. yes, only a

fellow canary

or yourself is likely to be able to figure out what the next " area "

to fix is. I can

walk into almost any home and spot 2-5 things per room to fix, after

my 15 years

of self training. Also, my nose tells me. I'm now a trained sniffer

and can locate

most any source. The deal here is after 1 source, in 15 seconds, my nose may

have stopped working. So, the next day I enter again. It can take 3-5 days.

Another issue is that hypersensitivity to one substance, where there

is a constant

exposure can lead to temporary hypersensitivity to another substance,

then another.

I've been through this. Read many sources of info on it. And how to cure it.

But I must go now to a meeting. If you reply, then do ask me to find

another post

to a different list about hypersensitivity and it's many issues.

Re-enter the home only after two things:

1) Initial hypersensitivity is cured (not just by avoidance)

2) or hypersensitivity to the secondary items are gone,

and the home has been completely cleaned of the initial

hypersensitivity substance. COMPLETELY. Including

outside, and the entire neighborhood.

More if request. Do target with some questions.

May 27, 2009

---

How exactly do you do the " entire neighborhood? " D

In , <pete-@...> wrote:

>

> At 06:39 PM 5/26/2009, you wrote:

> >, you made some good points, but I have to add that no two

> >situations are the same. The remediation plan has to be

> >specifically tailored to each situation---depending on the extent of

> >the water damage and mold, the types of mold, whether the mold is

> >airborne, how long the water damage has been going on, the health

> >issues of the family who own the house (do any of the occupants have

> >asthma or lung disease, immune system problems such as organ

> >transplant, etc.) and so on. In our situation, our house was

> >cleaned or remediated numerous times over several months and the

> >house was still toxic.

>

> I agree. My post was just for " cleaning " a home to be safe. Any home, not

one

> that has been damaged. Damaged homes are different in that internal fixes are

> necessary. I could list those, no time now. The reason my post did

> not address

> your specific concerns is I do not always " follow " closely the

> thread, as replying

> to 10 or so posts a day (more than just this one list), means 30-50 threads a

> week. Way too much to keep track of " each " one.

>

> So, to address you concern about proper remediation... yes, only a

> fellow canary

> or yourself is likely to be able to figure out what the next " area "

> to fix is. I can

> walk into almost any home and spot 2-5 things per room to fix, after

> my 15 years

> of self training. Also, my nose tells me. I'm now a trained sniffer

> and can locate

> most any source. The deal here is after 1 source, in 15 seconds, my nose may

> have stopped working. So, the next day I enter again. It can take 3-5 days.

>

> Another issue is that hypersensitivity to one substance, where there

> is a constant

> exposure can lead to temporary hypersensitivity to another substance,

> then another.

> I've been through this. Read many sources of info on it. And how to cure it.

>

> But I must go now to a meeting. If you reply, then do ask me to find

> another post

> to a different list about hypersensitivity and it's many issues.

>

> Re-enter the home only after two things:

>

> 1) Initial hypersensitivity is cured (not just by avoidance)

> 2) or hypersensitivity to the secondary items are gone,

> and the home has been completely cleaned of the initial

> hypersensitivity substance. COMPLETELY. Including

> outside, and the entire neighborhood.

>

> More if request. Do target with some questions.

>

May 27, 2009

I am intrigued, Dr Chin Yang told us we would never be able to have our

things back as once your body has become hypersensitized , it will never go

back. Mycotoxins are completely invisible, you can't smell,see or taste them

and do NOT go away with time. I only wish that was true!! Maybe it depends

on the total load your body endured or your genetic makeup?? We have been

told by Doctors,a Microbiologist and a CIH that we can *never* have our

things again or move back in the home even after it is completely

remediated. Maybe someone else could who hasn't been exposed already-but

definitely not us.

How on earth can you even go into the home where the contamination is and

clean?? How can you know if you have " gotten rid of " the mycotoxins??

.

On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 5:41 PM, <

pete-@...> wrote:

>

> At 10:39 AM 5/26/2009, you wrote:

> > " mycotoxins, if any, will go away in time. " I have NEVER read that

> >before, can you elaborate? How much time? If that is so, why are

> >there so many of us that cannot return to our homes after exposure

> >without severe reaction? I sure hope you are right, as that would

> >give me hope to go back to my home one day. D

>

> I can now clean a home free of all mold, spores and mold " by-products. "

> By products is what many of us are also sensitive to. Carl gave an long

> list of what these by products are in the Ozone thread. Basicly, dead

> mold is still dangerous, from it's " parts, " like cell walls, DNA, RNA, and

> other molecules that were inside the mold colony.

>

May 27, 2009

Do not, not get your hopes as you read my sentences, as at the end I say why.

Ok, I jump ahead first.

Hmm, it's far cheaper and fastest and less impact upon your health to throw

away everything you own (there are exceptions listed below), than to try

to clean a home or set of possessions. I know. I've cleaned my 3 times

in 18 years. I will not do that again.

Home is where the heart is.

What does that mean? Think long and hard about that. As it will set you free.

Why?

What is more important... your family and friends... or your material

possessions?

Which would you throw away first?

What is more important... your family and friends.... or your health?

Which would you throw away first?

Hard questions. To hear. But the answers ought to be easy. And are

for me now.

I hope your answers help you. We should discuss them. It appears to

be " complex " ,

but I think many on this list would now agree, the answers are simple.

At 06:34 AM 5/27/2009, you wrote:

>I am intrigued, Dr Chin Yang told us we would never be able to have our

>things back as once your body has become hypersensitized , it will never go

>back.

I've heard too many stories about cures, going back to a book

published in 1950's

that first described hypersensitivity (that I could find).

>Mycotoxins are completely invisible, you can't smell,see or taste them

>and do NOT go away with time.

Hmm. I wish I had been able to find a study to read that put in writing

statements like those. It's the first I have heard of it since I

started reading

about mycotoxins two years ago.

>I only wish that was true!! Maybe it depends

>on the total load your body endured or your genetic makeup?? We have been

>told by Doctors,a Microbiologist and a CIH that we can *never* have our

>things again or move back in the home even after it is completely

>remediated. Maybe someone else could who hasn't been exposed already-but

>definitely not us.

" Completely remediated " is the key here. As you indicate below.

>How on earth can you even go into the home where the contamination is and

>clean??

" You " can not, not without suffering grave consequences, symptoms of the

most severe type. " You " will not be doing the cleaning. Unless you want to

take 2-4 years out of your life, to spend " cleaning. " I know.

>How can you know if you have " gotten rid of " the mycotoxins??

By doing the " cure " for 1-2 years, and then go back into the 'home' and

be the canary and test it. If it fails, then do the cure again for 1-2 years,

and test again. If it fails, then do the cure again...

By the time you get this " home " completely remediated, you will have

lived elsewhere, made a new home, for over a year. Why keep trying

to get your " old " home back?

Sure, the property and building is half paid for. Just sell??? IMHO, yes.

--

Doctors do not have the time to sit you down and explain the

scientific details,

instead they deal with you at a human thought level, and tell you things, with

their " authority " (not expertise - more on that if requested), what you

need to believe

in order to get your life back on track, as fast as possible. As

fast as possible.

AS FAST AS POSSIBLE.

Do not be " connected " to your possessions, or a particular building.

Make a new home. Get new possessions. It's easier, faster, and better

for your health.

--

What can you keep?

1) Pictures you can have laminated, sealed both sides.

Or with today's technology just have scanned at 1,200 dpi and reprinted.

Do not have the same store scan and print. Once scanned that store

is contaminated, and should not do any more work for you.

2) non porous items that can be thoroughly cleaned and disinfected.

You will have to remove all the plastic that might be fogged by cleaners.

You will have to take it completely apart, and clean every surface.

Rinse, wipe dry, and sun for 8 hours (UV light disinfects).

Forget the furniture. Forget the TV set. I can disinfect these as I can

put them back together, but I've found it's cheaper to buy new... however

to get rid of the plastic smell, I have to take them apart anyway to wash

the manufacturing release compound from the plastic surfaces.

Forget the books. Sell them. Yes, they can be cleaned, but it costs

about $10 a book, and involves a vacuum chamber to do them enmass,

about $800 to $2000 per batch. The best way to batch them is the most

expensive. The book still needs to be disinfected, with an alcohol soak,

which most books do not tolerant. Just buy a new book. Or have the

binding sliced off ($10), scan the book through an page fed scanner ($50),

and print it out ($30 - color runs much higher), and rebind it, using the

old disinfected cover. Ah, cheaper to buy a new one? IMHO, yes.

China figurines can be disinfected. Jewel too. Original painting? Yes,

it can be cleaned, about $10 per square inch.

So, what to clean and keep? Original stuff you can afford to have cleaned.

Everything else you can buy. Right?

Get on with your life. Let go of your " home. " Make a new, better home.

You will be happier, sooner.

--

What is this " cure " I talk about? 1-2 years in a steel trailer in the desert

away from everyone (closest should be 30-50 miles away). Someone brings

you food, and they never enter your trailer. Outside you clean all the food

before taking it in the trailer. The trailer has no gas, only electricity.

It has no particle board inside, only solid wood. It has no plastic inside,

only metal, glass and solid wood. And all cotton, no man made fabrics.

Some rubber, for window seals, etc. In the trailer you only have cookware

and clothing, and one book to read. No computer or tv inside. More books

can be kept outside (in the shade). Even the fridge should be outside, just

it case it leaks.

About 90% of the people on this list will be cured by this method.

This method is also available at a few (2?) European spas. They are located

at the top of a hill, 20 miles from the nearest building, and they are trained

experts. Cost? From 30,000(?) to 200,000(?) a year. Cure rate is lower.

Does it mean you will not sick again? No. If you try hard enough, you

will become hypersensitive again, to the same substance, or to something else.

Why? Likely you are not follow best practices. It should last at

least 10 years

unless you are foolish. At least 20 years if you do " good "

practices. The rest

of your life if you do best practices (eat right, keep the home clean, and free

of toxins).

So, I ask again.

What would you throw away first? Your health or your _____?

May 28, 2009

-Yes , those who are hypersensitive to mycotoxin can find it very difficult

to live anywhere, much less in a house that has previously been contaminated. I

once tried to clean a very small free-standing apt from a very small amount of

toxin, $2,000 later-It still burned my hide, I lived outside it for another

year, then moved to tent in the desert.

-- In , <brianc8452@...> wrote:

>

> No need to take this any further. I just wanted to make sure that new members

on Sickbuildings knew that there is a lot more to consider and some houses can't

be made safe after 2 cleanings. I try to keep in mind that we have new members

joining the group all the time. Besides, it's fun to drive the insurance

company trolls crazy!!

>

May 28, 2009

At 05:27 PM 5/27/2009, you wrote:

>very small amount of toxin, $2,000 later-It still burned my hide, I

>lived outside it for another year, then moved to tent in the desert.

I'm considering the desert in California, Arizona or New Mexico, near

a fellow survivor.

Which desert did you find? Is it helping a lot? A little? Time of

year that it's worse?

Are you even tracking seasons?

May 28, 2009

, I am sorry, you are wrong, and I am not foolish. I am hypersensitized to

mycotoxin, and I do not think it matters that you can not find an article about

my, and others like my, experience. I am a restorer, as you would say, a

proffessional cleaner or objects, but the skin burning an subsequent illness

coming from objects that have been in a moldy home are extremly difficult to

clean, and impossible with anything that cannot be soaked for 8 hrs. And there

are many molds growing in a sickbuilding, not just one, and usually the same 5

or6. I have never met a mold I liked. You must not be hypersensitive to

mycotoxins, or this would be obvious to you, and you would understand it from

your own experience.

>

> Do not, not get your hopes as you read my sentences, as at the end I say why.

> Ok, I jump ahead first.

>

> Hmm, it's far cheaper and fastest and less impact upon your health to throw

> away everything you own (there are exceptions listed below), than to try

> to clean a home or set of possessions. I know. I've cleaned my 3 times

> in 18 years. I will not do that again.

>

> Home is where the heart is.

>

> What does that mean? Think long and hard about that. As it will set you

free.

>

May 28, 2009

---

Hi : I agree with you 100%, that is why I was asking this question to

to elaborate. I have been told the same thing and honestly I found his post

upsetting as it gives people some (false) hope. I cannot even tolerate a piece

of mail from my home never mind going in there or living in it. Thanks for

clearing this up. You know how confusing all of this information is when you are

recovering and trying to learn all you can to educate yourself. Hope you are

still doing well.Thank you . Take care Diane

In , Meng <moldsick@...> wrote:

>

> I am intrigued, Dr Chin Yang told us we would never be able to have our

> things back as once your body has become hypersensitized , it will never go

> back. Mycotoxins are completely invisible, you can't smell,see or taste them

> and do NOT go away with time. I only wish that was true!! Maybe it depends

> on the total load your body endured or your genetic makeup?? We have been

> told by Doctors,a Microbiologist and a CIH that we can *never* have our

> things again or move back in the home even after it is completely

> remediated. Maybe someone else could who hasn't been exposed already-but

> definitely not us.

>

> How on earth can you even go into the home where the contamination is and

> clean?? How can you know if you have " gotten rid of " the mycotoxins??

>

> .

>

> On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 5:41 PM, <

> pete-@...> wrote:

>

> >

> > At 10:39 AM 5/26/2009, you wrote:

> > > " mycotoxins, if any, will go away in time. " I have NEVER read that

> > >before, can you elaborate? How much time? If that is so, why are

> > >there so many of us that cannot return to our homes after exposure

> > >without severe reaction? I sure hope you are right, as that would

> > >give me hope to go back to my home one day. D

> >

> > I can now clean a home free of all mold, spores and mold " by-products. "

> > By products is what many of us are also sensitive to. Carl gave an long

> > list of what these by products are in the Ozone thread. Basicly, dead

> > mold is still dangerous, from it's " parts, " like cell walls, DNA, RNA, and

> > other molecules that were inside the mold colony.

> >

>

May 28, 2009

,

As far the mycotoxins being invisible, the person who told me that in person

and actually testified to it under oath is Dr Chin Yang PhD a very well

respected microbiologist who has been studying mycotoxins for a lot longer

than 2 yrs-no disrespect intended. Our CIH also testifed that mycotoxins are

tasteless and invisible , he has been a CIH for over 30yrs and has his

masters in Environmental Science. I have also been studying mycology the

past few years as I am sure every-one on this site has and none of us can

state any certainties, except the experts on this group.

They also informed me that there is no such thing as " complete remediation "

for someone who has been sensitized, as for getting rid of the

hypersensitivity-if you completely withdraw from any exposure, I don't think

it is not going to cure your sensitivity. Hey if it does sign me up!! LOL

What is this " cure " I talk about? 1-2 years in a steel trailer in the desert

away from everyone (closest should be 30-50 miles away).

>Mycotoxins are completely invisible, you can't smell,see or taste them

>and do NOT go away with time.

Hmm. I wish I had been able to find a study to read that put in writing

statements like those. It's the first I have heard of it since I

started reading

about mycotoxins two years ago.

Here is just one study for you, I have many more and I would be happy to

share them with you.

*Detection*

Food products need to be tested for mycotoxins:

• to meet regulatory guidelines

• to reduce the risks of mycotoxin contamination

• to maintain product quality

Mycotoxins cannot be detected visually, have no specific taste or smell in

contaminated food. This makes it difficult to identify an infected crop.

Analytical tests are the main tool for toxin detection. Table 3 indicates

some of the available tests.

*Table 3. Methods for detection of mycotoxins*

*

Mycotoxin

*

Detection Methods*

Aflatoxins

Chromatographic methods, ELISA

Deoxynivalenol and T-2 toxin

TLC, HPLC, GC, ELISA

Zearalenone

TLC, HPLC, immunoaffinity columns coupled with LC

Fumonisin

HPLC, FILIA

Ochratoxin

TLC, immunoaffinity chromatography, LC, MS

ELISA, enzyme-linked immunosorbent assays

TLC, thin-layer chromatography

HPLC, high-performance liquid chromatography

GC, gas chromatography

LC, liquid chromatography

MS, mass spectrometry

FILIA, flow-injection liposome immunoanalysis

ELISA test kits are commercially available (ex: R-Biopharm, Biotrace

International, Neogen Corporation, Technologies).

More information on mycotoxin testing can be found in the Aflatoxin Handbook

developed by the Federal Grain Inspection Service (USDA)

I think it is *very dangerous* for you to say* 90% of people posting* could

be cured by your extreme methods as unfortunately with this sickness,

every-one reacts differently-there is NO cure, and every-body's

hypersensitivity/reactivity is completely different. What we should do is

strengthen our body and immune system as much as we can so that we can deal

with the daily attacks that we know we are going to have to endure in the

environment.

The link below is for the New York State Occupational Health Dept Guidelines

that Chin Yang PhD contributed to. He is one of the nation's leading experts

in the field.Guidelines on Assessment and Remediation of Fungi in Indoor

Environments

http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/html/epi/moldrpt1.shtml

Hope this all helps a little with your research.

.

<http://www.engormix.com/e_companies_showcase.asp?view=videos & empr=1257>

ENGOREART MYC 20090528

..

On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 1:43 PM, <

pete-@...> wrote:

>

> Do not, not get your hopes as you read my sentences, as at the end I say

> why.

> Ok, I jump ahead first.

>

> Hmm, it's far cheaper and fastest and less impact upon your health to throw

> away everything you own (there are exceptions listed below), than to try

> to clean a home or set of possessions. I know. I've cleaned my 3 times

> in 18 years. I will not do that again.

>

> Home is where the heart is.

>

> What does that mean? Think long and hard about that. As it will set you

> free.

>

> Why?

>

> What is more important... your family and friends... or your material

> possessions?

>

> Which would you throw away first?

>

> What is more important... your family and friends.... or your health?

>

> Which would you throw away first?

>

> Hard questions. To hear. But the answers ought to be easy. And are

> for me now.

>

> I hope your answers help you. We should discuss them. It appears to

> be " complex " ,

> but I think many on this list would now agree, the answers are simple.

>

> At 06:34 AM 5/27/2009, you wrote:

> >I am intrigued, Dr Chin Yang told us we would never be able to have our

> >things back as once your body has become hypersensitized , it will never

> go

> >back.

>

> I've heard too many stories about cures, going back to a book

> published in 1950's

> that first described hypersensitivity (that I could find).

>

> >Mycotoxins are completely invisible, you can't smell,see or taste them

> >and do NOT go away with time.

>

> Hmm. I wish I had been able to find a study to read that put in writing

> statements like those. It's the first I have heard of it since I

> started reading

> about mycotoxins two years ago.

>

> >I only wish that was true!! Maybe it depends

> >on the total load your body endured or your genetic makeup?? We have been

> >told by Doctors,a Microbiologist and a CIH that we can *never* have our

> >things again or move back in the home even after it is completely

> >remediated. Maybe someone else could who hasn't been exposed already-but

> >definitely not us.

>

> " Completely remediated " is the key here. As you indicate below.

>

> >How on earth can you even go into the home where the contamination is and

> >clean??

>

> " You " can not, not without suffering grave consequences, symptoms of the

> most severe type. " You " will not be doing the cleaning. Unless you want to

> take 2-4 years out of your life, to spend " cleaning. " I know.

>

> >How can you know if you have " gotten rid of " the mycotoxins??

>

> By doing the " cure " for 1-2 years, and then go back into the 'home' and

> be the canary and test it. If it fails, then do the cure again for 1-2

> years,

> and test again. If it fails, then do the cure again...

>

> By the time you get this " home " completely remediated, you will have

> lived elsewhere, made a new home, for over a year. Why keep trying

> to get your " old " home back?

>

> Sure, the property and building is half paid for. Just sell??? IMHO, yes.

>

> --

>

> Doctors do not have the time to sit you down and explain the

> scientific details,

> instead they deal with you at a human thought level, and tell you things,

> with

> their " authority " (not expertise - more on that if requested), what you

>

> need to believe

>

> in order to get your life back on track, as fast as possible. As

> fast as possible.

> AS FAST AS POSSIBLE.

>

> Do not be " connected " to your possessions, or a particular building.

> Make a new home. Get new possessions. It's easier, faster, and better

> for your health.

>

> --

>

> What can you keep?

>

> 1) Pictures you can have laminated, sealed both sides.

> Or with today's technology just have scanned at 1,200 dpi and reprinted.

> Do not have the same store scan and print. Once scanned that store

> is contaminated, and should not do any more work for you.

>

> 2) non porous items that can be thoroughly cleaned and disinfected.

> You will have to remove all the plastic that might be fogged by cleaners.

> You will have to take it completely apart, and clean every surface.

> Rinse, wipe dry, and sun for 8 hours (UV light disinfects).

>

> Forget the furniture. Forget the TV set. I can disinfect these as I can

> put them back together, but I've found it's cheaper to buy new... however

> to get rid of the plastic smell, I have to take them apart anyway to wash

> the manufacturing release compound from the plastic surfaces.

>

> Forget the books. Sell them. Yes, they can be cleaned, but it costs

> about $10 a book, and involves a vacuum chamber to do them enmass,

> about $800 to $2000 per batch. The best way to batch them is the most

> expensive. The book still needs to be disinfected, with an alcohol soak,

> which most books do not tolerant. Just buy a new book. Or have the

> binding sliced off ($10), scan the book through an page fed scanner ($50),

> and print it out ($30 - color runs much higher), and rebind it, using the

> old disinfected cover. Ah, cheaper to buy a new one? IMHO, yes.

>

> China figurines can be disinfected. Jewel too. Original painting? Yes,

> it can be cleaned, about $10 per square inch.

>

> So, what to clean and keep? Original stuff you can afford to have cleaned.

> Everything else you can buy. Right?

>

> Get on with your life. Let go of your " home. " Make a new, better home.

> You will be happier, sooner.

>

> --

>

> What is this " cure " I talk about? 1-2 years in a steel trailer in the

> desert

> away from everyone (closest should be 30-50 miles away). Someone brings

> you food, and they never enter your trailer. Outside you clean all the food

> before taking it in the trailer. The trailer has no gas, only electricity.

> It has no particle board inside, only solid wood. It has no plastic inside,

> only metal, glass and solid wood. And all cotton, no man made fabrics.

> Some rubber, for window seals, etc. In the trailer you only have cookware

> and clothing, and one book to read. No computer or tv inside. More books

> can be kept outside (in the shade). Even the fridge should be outside, just

> it case it leaks.

>

> About 90% of the people on this list will be cured by this method.

>

> This method is also available at a few (2?) European spas. They are located

> at the top of a hill, 20 miles from the nearest building, and they are

> trained

> experts. Cost? From 30,000(?) to 200,000(?) a year. Cure rate is lower.

>

> Does it mean you will not sick again? No. If you try hard enough, you

> will become hypersensitive again, to the same substance, or to something

> else.

> Why? Likely you are not follow best practices. It should last at

> least 10 years

> unless you are foolish. At least 20 years if you do " good "

> practices. The rest

> of your life if you do best practices (eat right, keep the home clean, and

> free

> of toxins).

>

> So, I ask again.

>

> What would you throw away first? Your health or your _____?

>

May 29, 2009

At 07:12 AM 5/28/2009, you wrote:

>, I am sorry, you are wrong, and I am not foolish.

, ah, you misread my sentence. I believe you. I just need more

material for me to read.

I base my decisions on provable facts. It would be too expensive otherwise.

What I have read to date are key mycotoxin studies published in the

last 3 years.

And not enough of them. Do you have any reading material for me?

May 29, 2009

I'm glad to have my posts misread and I will avoid responding to those

who feel the need to vent their misunderstanding. We are all mostly

sick on this list. No one is helped by venting, nor the misunderstanding.

I do recommend to avoid misunderstandings, to first post a short sentence

asking for clarification.

I provide short sentences below for clarification.

I've tried to make my knowledge available to list members. Most

like to know, and will confirm for themselves.

I do not mind replies that vent, that profess to having given up hope.

I believe you.

> >Mycotoxins are completely invisible, you can't smell,see or taste them

> >and do NOT go away with time.

>

>Hmm. I wish I had been able to find a study to read that put in writing

>statements like those. It's the first I have heard of it since I

>started reading

>about mycotoxins two years ago.

Well, I see what the confusion is about.

My reply regarded only the last half of the sentence... this part:

>and do NOT go away with time.

I had no feedback about the first part of the sentence.

I was asking, indirectly, for more external references for me to read.

Geesh. What a fuse one poorly written sentence stirred up. :-(

Regarding mycotoxins... I understand they are a 'gas' that the

mold gives off. Not something that will settle onto to surfaces.

But it floats in the air, full time. Read this in a prior post of mine.

So, regarding clearing out mycotoxins of a room... yes, that is possible.

Will they " come back? " Yes. From two sources, the mold that gives it

off, and what materials the mycotoxin gas penetrated and is storing

the gas. However, mycotoxins are large molecules and do not penetrate

far into caulk board or other building materials. Eliminate those two

sources, and the mycotoxins will not come back. Right?

So, my take on someone stating " it's not possible to remediate mycotoxins "

is they do not know much about mycotoxins, or are telling someone a small

white lie, that is needed for them to move on.

The fact is, not much is known about mycotoxins, compared to

bacteria, or virus.

Or even mold.

>They also informed me that there is no such thing as " complete remediation "

>for someone who has been sensitized,

That is practical knowledge, as I posted about in the last 2 days.

It's what you need to hear. The cost of remediation is too much,

and takes too long. Get on with your life in another home.

It's like when they say a car in an accident is " totalled. "

Even though only the front end is damaged. Why?

The cost of repairing the car is more than buying it new.

Same thing with a home. Some damage is too extensive to repair,

even though 99.99% of the rest of population may have no trouble

in the home.

>as for getting rid of the

>hypersensitivity-if you completely withdraw from any exposure,

Did you follow my threads on this topic 2-3 weeks ago?

About cell mediated immune response of MAST cells?

>I don't think it is not going to cure your sensitivity. Hey if it

>does sign me up!! LOL

Well, is the following sentence true?

If you do not try, then you will never know.

Everyone on this list is used to reading the list, and evaluating for

themselves

what to use, and what not to. I expect no less from you.

I give you my best wishes for reducing your symptoms. I hope you reach zero.

I post " good " information, that has been proven to me, time and time again.

From two or more sources, and from two or more types of sources, first

and foremost is what I read in writing, from hundreds of sources, mostly

expert, and the second is personal testimony.

I've heard of this cure from about 12 people now who know directly of

someone who did this " cure " and 10 or 20 years later have no problem

with the original home that made them ill. I first read it in a medical

journal. I've now read it many times in peer reviewed medical journals.

I've read about the European spas, and when I posted to another

list, a reply came back from two people who knew neighbors who

did that, but they could not afford the same. I've had two people

tell me to my face they know of someone who did it. I've had

a half dozen people email they know directly someone who did

it. There are whole " communities " , housing developments now

devoted to this principle. Some people leave these places and

go back to the city.

>I think it is *very dangerous*

How so?

>for you to say* 90% of people posting* could

>be cured by your

Not my method.

>extreme methods as unfortunately with this sickness,

>every-one reacts differently-there is NO cure, and every-body's

>hypersensitivity/reactivity is completely different.

Not really. Read my posts in the last month about cell mediated

immune response.

>What we should do is strengthen our body

Agreed.

>and immune system

Disagree. Read my posts last month. Our immune systems are " too " strong

and what needs to be done is the immune response turned down, not up.

>as much as we can so that we can deal

>with the daily attacks that we know we are going to have to endure in the

>environment.

I wish I could empty my body of most MAST cells, and killer cells, and

back off the memory in my thyroid. Did you research of the info

I have suppled about cell mediated immune responses?

>The link below is for the New York State Occupational Health Dept Guidelines

>that Chin Yang PhD contributed to. He is one of the nation's leading experts

>in the field.Guidelines on Assessment and Remediation of Fungi in Indoor

>Environments

>http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/html/epi/moldrpt1.shtml

I'd read last year or so and did not find anything new in it I did

not know 15 years ago.

>Hope this all helps a little with your research.

The reference list has some interesting scientific studies.

Mostly not at a practical level that can be used directly

to reduce symptoms. So, I will not read many of them.

May 29, 2009

,

The last thing I have done is given up hope!!! However posting that you

have a cure for 90% of the people on this group. is irresponsible. You have

no idea how sick some people are. As for strengthening the immune system,

our immune systems are now disfunctional, we need to strengthen it so that

it is able to function normally again.

I am not venting, purely trying to protect those that maybe are just

starting this nightmare and think that all they have to do is clean their

house twice and go live in a steel trailer like a hermit-REALLY!!

On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 9:59 PM, <

pete-@...> wrote:

>

> I'm glad to have my posts misread and I will avoid responding to those

> who feel the need to vent their misunderstanding. We are all mostly

> sick on this list. No one is helped by venting, nor the misunderstanding.

>

May 29, 2009

-The time of year that it is worse is exactly Feb 1 when I brought moldy paving

stones right into the campsie, 4 months later, still trying to re-coup. I am

convinced I could live on the moon and after 6 months ,gett sick from mold, or

find it on an ice cube when I open the fridge. I am in SW NM, have spoke to you

briefly about it before, after a non-mycotoxin sensitive moldy moved here, we

had a lot of issues to sort out-won't do that again. plus you must love target

shots at rattlesnakes, cougar scares and sudden winds in the middle of the night

that bust up the whole place, add freezing cold at night in the winter, and

bioling all summer-lots of fun for the afflicted. We have a museum of

alternative building. Most of which has failed and is in the process of being

sold. Tee-Pee-bad, scamp trailer-bad. building-bad -metal building on

slab-bad. Hexi-yurt-working for the non-myco, Shelter system tent-works if you

don't bring in anything bad. Sitting outside 24/7-works.

-- In , <pete-@...> wrote:

>

> At 05:27 PM 5/27/2009, you wrote:

> >very small amount of toxin, $2,000 later-It still burned my hide, I

> >lived outside it for another year, then moved to tent in the desert.

>

> I'm considering the desert in California, Arizona or New Mexico, near

> a fellow survivor.

> Which desert did you find? Is it helping a lot? A little? Time of

> year that it's worse?

> Are you even tracking seasons?

>

May 29, 2009

-, I have no problem with 90% of your posts, avoidance is the only way for

people with this illness, it will at least not up-regulate. But please stop

talking about the nature of mycotoxins-at least listen to those who are

afflicted with the sensitivity-you are making a muddle of it. If you cannot feel

them you have not a clue what we are talking about. To have something that has

ruined our lives trivilized by you is very dishearteneing. If I had not found

many people from this site years ago who understood the burn of toxin on the

skin-the dog-and everything that comes in contact with mold, I would surly have

done away with myself years ago. Of course mycotoxins oxidize away-or else the

whole world would be covered in them-but it is a tricky-process-and very

time-consuming. and the person must be de-toxed to have a chance

-- In , <pete-@...> wrote:

>

> I've tried to make my knowledge available to list members. Most

> like to know, and will confirm for themselves.

>

May 29, 2009

-No, I have nothing for you to read, most of my reserch was done many computers

ago,since then ,I only concentrate on de-tox reserch-of items and body. My own

experience with the offending substance, and those of others has solidified the

nature of it to my present satisfaction. As you know, a well written e-mail sent

to a specialist will usually be answered in time.

>

> >, I am sorry, you are wrong, and I am not foolish.

>

> , ah, you misread my sentence. I believe you. I just need more

> material for me to read.

> I base my decisions on provable facts. It would be too expensive otherwise.

> What I have read to date are key mycotoxin studies published in the

> last 3 years.

> And not enough of them. Do you have any reading material for me?

>

May 30, 2009

---

: If you REALLY want to learn about mycotoxins, you could start by

listening to us here. No need to read when you can get your information

" straight from the horses mouth " . D

In , wrote:

> >

> > , ah, you misread my sentence. I believe you. I just need more

> > material for me to read.

> > I base my decisions on provable facts. It would be too expensive otherwise.

> > What I have read to date are key mycotoxin studies published in the

> > last 3 years.

> > And not enough of them. Do you have any reading material for me?

> >

>

May 30, 2009

When I first got sick from mold, my immune system went haywire and normal

allergies to grass and stuff just about killed me. So I had to address those

issues as well. I take allergy shots for those. It is a side product of my

mold illness.

Janet

In a message dated 5/30/2009 4:37:52 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

yaddayadda53@... writes:

I'm not wise enough to understand the science of immune function. But I'm

curious about the reality of what actually happens. My very ignorant

" lay-sense " is that rather than our immune function being too high,

May 30, 2009

---

: You stated " hexi-yurt working for the non-myco. " MY son just sent me some

information on yurts (made by Pacific, I think). For what reason do they not

work for the mycotoxin-sensitive? thanks D

In , " " <kdeanstudios@...> wrote:

>

> -The time of year that it is worse is exactly Feb 1 when I brought moldy

paving stones right into the campsie, 4 months later, still trying to re-coup. I

am convinced I could live on the moon and after 6 months ,gett sick from mold,

or find it on an ice cube when I open the fridge. I am in SW NM, have spoke to

you briefly about it before, after a non-mycotoxin sensitive moldy moved here,

we had a lot of issues to sort out-won't do that again. plus you must love

target shots at rattlesnakes, cougar scares and sudden winds in the middle of

the night that bust up the whole place, add freezing cold at night in the

winter, and bioling all summer-lots of fun for the afflicted. We have a museum

of alternative building. Most of which has failed and is in the process of being

sold. Tee-Pee-bad, scamp trailer-bad. building-bad -metal building on

slab-bad. Hexi-yurt-working for the non-myco, Shelter system tent-works if you

don't bring in anything bad. Sitting outside 24/7-works.

>

May 30, 2009

I'm not wise enough to understand the science of immune function. But I'm

curious about the reality of what actually happens. My very ignorant " lay-sense "

is that rather than our immune function being too high, that it is more what

is saying that our immune systems are dysfunctional and that this

dysfunction from toxic overload causes a strong immune response. Is an analogy

to be made in a lesser extent the immune response that can occur through

allergies or asthma? I'm not comparing mold and chemical toxicity to allergies

at all as we know that isn't the case. Mold or any kind of toxic exposure is not

an allergy. But more in terms of the experience of immune dysfunction. I can see

where would think that our immune systems are too strong, because isn't it

more likely that it is the strong response to our immune system trying to fight

off a toxic invader that already has weakened the immune system; hence the

" sicker/quicker " response? Any

thoughts?

,

As for strengthening the immune system,

our immune systems are now disfunctional, we need to strengthen it so that

it is able to function normally again.

ing.

May 31, 2009

---

My immune system is not working too much, its not working. I am

immune-compromised and have all the lab work to prove it. All abnormal IgG

levels and immunglobulin shots dont help to bring it up which means the damage

is most likely permanent. So, to agree with you Sam, we dont have immune systems

that are over-working. At least not in my case. D

In , Sam <yaddayadda53@...> wrote:

>

> I'm not wise enough to understand the science of immune function. But I'm