RE: Digest Number 5969 (mold in public housing)

[Guest guest]

I am still a member of this group. When I first joined, I posted more often;

however, my fatigue issues are sometimes just too much. Mostly, now, I just

read. But, the article on mold in public housing got my interest. I live in

HUD housing. Earlier in the year, the maintenance crew came in and did some

repairs and cleaned all of the visible mold from around the windows. I was left

with a spray bottle of Simple Green, a mask, and some gloves. Last month, or

the month before, I had to sign a paper that stated our unit was certified

mold-free. However, it is my opinion that cleaning the surface mold does not

mean the unit is mold free.

I am getting so frustrated with subsidized housing. I can't get rid of the mold

completely. I'm sure it is in the walls. I'm not sure what kind of insulation

the unit has, but I don't think it's very good. If anything touches the outside

walls, it will pull moisture in from the outside. The housing office says the

mold problem is due to the tightness of the units. Give me a break, the units

are not tight. There is a gap between the bottom of the outside doors and the

floor. Also, during the daytime, I can see daylight between the doors and the

door frames of both the front door and the back door.

If I could afford to live somewhere else, I would move in a heartbeat.

Donna

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[Guest guest]

Donna, If you think mold might be in the walls, you can do 'air sealing' of your

unit. This is filling all holes with expanding foam so there are no air leaks

from wall into your unit. Put some insulating material under door to keep out

whatever is in hall, then buy an air cleaner; open windows on day that is not

humid or hot. If the expanding foam is hard type that cannot be removed, check

with whoever you need to to make sure it is okay and they don't charge you for,

say, not being able to get to plumbing without cutting it away. I don't know if

there are any areas that shouldn't be spray with foam, for example around

anything that could get hot. You need to read up on air sealing or product you

use for that. There is an organization that can steer you to professional air

sealer that I have address of if you want it.

>

> I am still a member of this group. When I first joined, I posted more often;

however, my fatigue issues are sometimes just too much. Mostly, now, I just

read. But, the article on mold in public housing got my interest. I live in

HUD housing. Earlier in the year, the maintenance crew came in and did some

repairs and cleaned all of the visible mold from around the windows. I

[Guest guest]

What a crock! Sign that there was no mold? Are they insane? Or, are they

stupid? You are in no position, to sign that there is no mold. How do you

know? You can only say that the came in and did a job, like a cable

installer...or an appliance repair person. You saw them " do " something. That

is it. (not legal advice*)

What might be tried is one of those infrared " scanner " machines to see where

moisture is behind the walls.

There are home inspectors who (before you buy a house) who scan through the

walls and can give you an image of the moisture. They can give you a printout of

the " wet " spots. Good luck.

>

>

>

> I am still a member of this group. When I first joined, I posted more often;

however, my fatigue issues are sometimes just too much. Mostly, now, I just

read. But, the article on mold in public housing got my interest. I live in

HUD housing. Earlier in the year, the maintenance crew came in and did some

repairs and cleaned all of the visible mold from around the windows. I was left

with a spray bottle of Simple Green, a mask, and some gloves. Last month, or

the month before, I had to sign a paper that stated our unit was certified

mold-free. However, it is my opinion that cleaning the surface mold does not

mean the unit is mold free.

>

> I am getting so frustrated with subsidized housing. I can't get rid of the

mold completely. I'm sure it is in the walls. I'm not sure what kind of

insulation the unit has, but I don't think it's very good. If anything touches

the outside walls, it will pull moisture in from the outside. The housing

office says the mold problem is due to the tightness of the units. Give me a

break, the units are not tight. There is a gap between the bottom of the

outside doors and the floor. Also, during the daytime, I can see daylight

between the doors and the door frames of both the front door and the back door.

>

> If I could afford to live somewhere else, I would move in a heartbeat.

>

> Donna

>

>

>

> _________________________________________________________________

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>

>

[Guest guest]

I think it is called thermal imaging. And seems like more and more CIH's use

this. But would forward this question and any suggestions to our resident

experts. I hope there is a cost-effective way for you to be able to address

this. Any thoughts?

What might be tried is one of those infrared " scanner " machines to see where

moisture is behind the walls.

[Guest guest]

I think you are correct about the " thermal imaging " and it should be emerging as

a reasonable standard for water intrusion and mold detection behind. That way

there is no " he said-she said " about whether or not there is water intrusion. I

think there are home inspectors who use them to conduct inspections for homes to

purchase.

>

> What might be tried is one of those infrared " scanner " machines to see where

moisture is behind the walls.

>

[Guest guest]

Sam & ginloi,

Infrared thermography is the technical name. It is a powerful tool

but not the final answer to detecting moisture. Like all other tools

and instruments it has strengths and weaknesses. Not

understanding what those are is what leads to confusion. It is

what " snake oil " salesmen exploit and the under-educated

unintentionally mislead with (both for finding problems that aren't

really there and for not finding problems which are).

CIH's don't have the training as part of their required knowledge

base and Indoor Environmental Consultants don't either. They

must get it separately, usually from the manufacters, the sales

distributors or others.

It measures temperature differences on sufaces, whether caused

by moisture or something else. Also, if the moisture is the same

temperature as the walls, ceilings or floors the IR camera sees

nothing.

For those interested, go to:

http://www.masongrant.com/pdf_2008/IR_What_it_can_do.pdf

for the PDF of a slide show given by one of the leading experts

on IR thermography, Lew Harriman, on what it can do and what it

cannot do. It is not very technical but is very informative with

photos showing real image compared to the IR image. Here is

the text from the concluding slide:

The 4 most important facts about infrared moisture detection:

1. Infrared cameras only show surface temperature patterns.

* They CANNOT see inside walls.

* Not all temperature patterns are moisture patterns -

meters remain mandatory.

2. Helps you see " The Big Picture " of the damage.

* Faster, more accurate damage assessment.

* Faster drying through accurate re-direction of dry air.

3. Interior water damage is much simpler than exterior or forensic

investigation

* Water source is known.

* Moisture nearly always appears cooler.

* Very little weather or solar influence.

* Fewer layers.

4. Meaningful written reports take longer than the inspection.

* Locations and thermal circumstances must be explained for

each photo.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

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>

>

>

> I think you are correct about the " thermal imaging " and it should be emerging

as a reasonable standard for

> water intrusion and mold detection behind. That way there is no " he said-she

said " about whether or not

> there is water intrusion. I think there are home inspectors who use them to

conduct inspections for homes to

> purchase.

>

>

> >

> > What might be tried is one of those infrared " scanner " machines to see where

moisture is behind the walls.

>

[Guest guest]

Carl - What I don't understand is why CIH people don't have education about

" processes " for testing and I do NOT mean " brand names. " Here is where I see

trouble. Product developers and patent holders are in such a hurry to exploit

their product development (as well they should)that it does not become part of

the " educational process " in the industry.

It seems that it is counter intuitive. When teacher is in training, they learn

lots of " methods " of teaching, then they learn to use " product materials " in

order to do the " practical application " of teaching. You might even look at

medicine, where diagnostic testing " procedures " are taught, not necessarily the

actual " product lines " which are " incidental " to the process of learning how to

be a doctor.

A lot of this stuff is rammed through for approval and it seems that people in

the field don't have the opportunity to view and observe firsthand " how things

work " and are thusly left in the dark. I saw that " thermal infrared " used

around 2002, and it was the result of technology of " night vision " apparatus

developed during the Vietnam War. In fact, I had taught a student to type with

Retinitis Pigmentosa, who had (in 1975!) a " scope " which enabled him to use the

same technology as same technique. I think the company was or is called

Moisture Vision. (This is not a product endorsement.)

If activists and other professionals in the field, do not have instruction (CIH)

then, in my opinion (which as a career educator, is an " informed opinion " ) then

maybe they need to retool their curriculum to include products (or processes) in

the stream which help the " accurate " and honest testing process rather than

trying to catch " moonbeams " or mold spores which can be tampered with in an

indoor space? This is too wishy-washy and subject to chicanery and challenges

of " reliability " as actual physical evidence of building damage and resulting

physical injury.

>

> Sam & ginloi,

>

> Infrared thermography is the technical name. It is a powerful tool

> but not the final answer to detecting moisture. Like all other tools

> and instruments it has strengths and weaknesses. Not

> understanding what those are is what leads to confusion. It is

> what " snake oil " salesmen exploit and the under-educated

> unintentionally mislead with (both for finding problems that aren't

> really there and for not finding problems which are).

>