Re: mold free or just normal levels - was: TYPES OF MOLD THAT HAVE CAUSED SICKNESS

[Guest guest]

,

Overall this is very good. I can quibble with and update several of

the specifics and technicalities but the general theme that " mold

free " is neither possible nor necessarily desirable is accurate.

Just like we don't need an " animal free " environment because pit

bulls and cougars will hurt us. Or " plant free " because of poison

ivy or deadly mushrooms. Unfortunately, we don't have as much

knowledge about the effects on people by the genera, species,

and varieties of mold as we do with other Kingdoms such as

plants and animals. And developing that necessary knowledge is

being interferred with.

I would add that there is more than mold being amplified by damp

indoor spaces. Knowledge about the role of bacteria is increasing

and now Aino Nevalainen of Finland is reporting amobea on

damp building materials. Add settled " dust " and danders and life

cycle progressions of the mold and bacteria and you have what

the recent AIHA conference is calling particle and chemical

emanations from the " filth " caused by moisture.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

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>

>

> Summary:

> Well, my opinion is ***everyone*** on this list should read what I have

> posted, and fully understand it. I'll answer questions if you post to the

> list. It's likely you have read half or more of this.

>

> I doubt there is a single person on this list who has read " all " of

> this before.

> It took me years to get it all. " By-products " is likely new to most.

>

> At 01:00 PM 5/13/2009, you wrote:

> >Clearly one needs a mold free living environment,

>

> Hmm, every breath you inhale has hundreds, if not thousands of spores,

> from tens if not hundreds of mold species. " Mold Free " is for bubble people

> whose immune system are NOT working, not merely compromised, or

> over-reacting (most people on this list, imho).

>

> You need constant inhalation of mold species' spores in order to

> prevent future unbalanced immune system response. It's very

> needed part of childhood and adult life. It's like the American

> Indian getting exposed to chicken pox the first time. It killed

> off over half the Indians within a few years. You do not want

> that for yourself or your children.

>

> What you want is " normal " mold levels, not artificially boosted

> levels of mold of any one or more species due to weather

> sealed homes, or colonies growing due to the presence

> of constant moisture (water pipe leaks, rain leaks), and

> adequate nutrient input (air borne particles enter your

> walls interior due to cracks).

>

> > but what about the environment outside the presumably mold-free

> > home which inevitably will permeate into the home?

>

> Always happens. As long as the inside mold species " counts "

> match the outside, then you are fine. When the inside has

> " higher " counts than outside, then somewhere a mold colony

> of that species is growing, and growing, and growing, and

> it's bad to let this growing continue. The colony should be

> found, and it's mass removed, and surfaces scrubbed and

> left with a mold inhibitor on it (borax, salt, etc).

>

> Especially important is to also remove the source of moisture

> and nutrients that mold colony was using. Without this removal

> of both, the colony will, will, will come back, very quickly, within

> weeks, certainly within a month or two.

>

> And some colonies will regrow regardless. Why? The species

> sends out " shoots " , tendrils, deep into wood, concrete, etc,

> and they can be from 1/4 inch long, to 2 feet (typical),

> and the rare species sends out tendrils 40 feet. These are

> invisible to the naked eye. Scrubbing off them is not possible,

> as they grow " into " the building material (thus replacement of

> wood studs is common). And is the reason to put a mold

> inhibit on all surfaces in the wall interior.

>

> >Specifically I am trying to figure out if living by the ocean or in

> >the mountains would be less problematic

>

> Depends on the mold species. I am atypical. They say high desert, but

> the mold I react is heat loving (grew in the attic in the desert -

> Los Angeles).

> So, I should not, not, not, move to the desert.

>

> Instead, I live by the ocean. And doctors roll their eyes at this.

> What the doctor does not know is the species I react is heat loving,

> or thermophilic.

>

> Point is, where to move to, depends on the 1 in 500,000+ mold species

> you have become sensitized to. Or 2 or 3 or more.

>

> Yes, it's not simple, but complex. The mold that made you sick, should

> be not only visually have it's genre determined (there are 5 mold genre's),

> but also it's species within the genre should be determined, like by DNA

> analysis, if the visual inspect is " inadequate " (usually it is wrong 50-70%

> of the time, unless it is by a VERY good scientist - only two exist and

> they retired a few years back.)

>

> >- all other variables remaining identical (of course that is not

> >possible in real life, but if it were possible).

>

> I recommend throwing away all possessions (like the doctors do),

> and moving into a HEPA pressurized home, where external air

> is cleaned, and pushed into the home, and forced out all cracks

> and windows and doors. Thus, any mold growing in the walls,

> floor or ceiling, will have it's mold spores and mycotoxic gasses

> pushed outside, out of your indoor air.

>

> Just be careful about the HEPA fan motor lube smell. I want a

> HEPA with the motor outside of the clean air flow, a professional

> unit, used in Central AC would be fine.

>

> >I hope to hear from some of you folks who feel that MVOCs are an issue.

>

> I can not comment on MVOC's. I can comment on mycotoxins, which

> depending on mold species, can be the same thing.

>

> Regarding mold genres and mold species within a genre that are

> 'pathogenic' to all animals, versus just one person being sensitized

> to " normal " or even " low " levels in the air, and the mold by-products

> (mycotoxic gas is just one by-product recently found to truly exist

> where as before a 'gas' was not even suspected to come from mold)

> that cause SBS, it's a 'range' within the genre of the species, as

> not all species are dangerous/pathogenic. And then due to

> genetic predisposition some species that the bulk of humans

> do not react to, well the remainder of the humans might/would

> have a pathogenic reaction, at low, medium or high levels,

> either immediately or with chronic exposure.

>

> It is this " complexity " that allows western med to " ignore " the situation,

> as " too complex " for a practicing doctor to " diagnose " or " treat " , or

> even to try to find a specialist for referral.

>

>

[Guest guest]

At 11:52 PM 5/13/2009, you wrote:

>Overall this is very good.

Thanks Carl. Means a lot coming from you.

> I can quibble with and update several of

>the specifics and technicalities

I'm all ears.

Not all mold has tendrils, and there are spores, and other means of spreading.

There is so much more to add, but I tend to write for the sick lay person.

Enough info to have 'working knowledge to make themselves safe again'

is my goal.

On a linked page will be the same info only written for the

" expert. " It's a lot to consider authoring for two such diverse audiences.

I'm designing a special authoring software package to do it.

There is a real need though to list the 'white lies' as " opponents "

like nothing more than to kibitz the small details and claim the entire

enterprise is therefore tainted. We must avoid that.

>but the general theme that " mold

>free " is neither possible nor necessarily desirable is accurate.

I do want to " convert " my post to the front page copy of a new

web site I am working on for hypersensitivity. Most of the post will likely

make the front page, but the " free from mold " will be on it's

own page, and linked too. It's a FAQ item for newbies.

>Just like we don't need an " animal free " environment because pit

>bulls and cougars will hurt us. Or " plant free " because of poison

>ivy or deadly mushrooms.

Good parallels. Can I use them? :-)

>Unfortunately, we don't have as much

>knowledge about the effects on people by the genera, species,

>and varieties of mold as we do with other Kingdoms such as

>plants and animals. And developing that necessary knowledge is

>being interferred with.

>

>I would add that there is more than mold being amplified by damp

>indoor spaces. Knowledge about the role of bacteria is increasing

I a cave " indoors " or outdoors? Depends on two things I would think.

First, is there a door? Second, how deep into the cave. Oh, and

does the cave have running water. <grins>

>and now Aino Nevalainen of Finland is reporting amobea on

>damp building materials. Add settled " dust " and danders and life

>cycle progressions of the mold and bacteria and you have what

>the recent AIHA conference is calling particle and chemical

>emanations from the " filth " caused by moisture.

I was reading up on " biofilms " at WikiPedia. Your points are BIG!

Stealth virus, micro virus, ..., the list is getting long of what a " germ " is.

retro virus, RNA virus, ... Strange stuff.

And how they can infest the body. If someone paid me, then I would

write MRI software to identify the genetic structure of thousands of

samples in vials. Then, write code to microscan each organ in the

body, and try for matches to the new database. Hundred billion dollar

business it would be. The major bottleneck is current resolution of

MRI machines is a centimeter, or half of one. To reduce this down

to identify a cell's nucleus, and find the DNA spiral, and then scan

the spiral as it twists in the nucleus... fun coding to me. Love to do it.

A scan of each organ for " germ " would take about 3-8 hours ***each***

with the current crop of MRIs.

BTW, only a badly focused MRI can not do this job now.

Most MRIs can scan down to the atom level, just it's so slow

to " find molecular formulas " at that scale, compared to giving

a doctor an overview of half centimeter sized 'objects' of the body.

fMRI is fascinating me. I do not like the ideal of contrast material.

There is a new 'surface' MRI box used on famous paintings. www.SciAm.com

It's about a foot long in all dimensions. Very portable.

And NASA has a new mold species DNA detector for the Space

Station that is being tested now. Detects mold on surfaces within

minutes. www.NASA.gov

[Guest guest]

Mold-free is not practical or desireable. The pressurized HEPA is an

interesting idea for giving relief from stress. I wonder how one goes about

installing one?

As for balance, I have had my teens on a very moldy organic farm near the sea

shore, and my teens had no symptoms. This farmer used his own pond water to

water the fields. Yet at a beach on that same island, near a polluted bay,

something growing pesky overgrown sea weed was repulsive to them (out of balance

local condition I guess.)

I do give my family homemade kefir which does include minute amounts of " wild "

strains of local molds and other stuff in the air which serves to provide

something like an allergy shot...a mild challenge to build tolerance. People

eat local honey for the same reason if they have allergies to pollen. I need to

replenish the curd with sterile grains after a few months as it become too

contanminated, and even when I am conscientious about this, my most sensitive

teen will not take it at all if his immune system is already under a great deal

of stress from every day exposures.

It is always a matter of how stirred up one becomes I guess. Dampness can

amplify, but sometimes that is not a problem it seems.

Kate

-

[Guest guest]

Summary:

What makes a mold " species " colony grow so fast as to become a danger

to a few, some, many or all humans?

At 05:00 AM 5/14/2009, you wrote:

>Mold-free is not practical or desireable. The pressurized HEPA is an

>interesting idea for giving relief from stress. I wonder how one

>goes about installing one?

I use painter's 14 day masking tape, aluminim flexible ducting,

aluminum foil with 2 "

polyester packaging tape to stiffen it to make ducting to HEPA inlet adaptor.

Ditto for fitting the ducting to the open window (not more than 4 inches, and

bar the window to prevent thieves from entering). You have to " seal " all other

windows, sliding doors, doors, and kitchen exhaust fan, and sometimes

the bathroom exhaust fan (keep the bathroom and kitchen dry, dry, dry).

Or hire a professional. Or DIY.

>As for balance, I have had my teens on a very moldy organic farm

>near the sea shore, and my teens had no symptoms.

Trees, plants, leaves, trunks and roots have the mold genre

'Alternaria " and it's species

growing on them, at all times. Dead leaves 'dissolve' due to this

genre eating the leaf.

Alternaria is the most common mold 'genre' found almost everywhere.

It's considered " safe " . However, chronic high exposures can lead to

sensitivity.

I'm not talking about living on a farm for decades. I am talking about being

indoors 16 hours a day (8 hours sleeping) and dose levels 2 to 10 times

the outside air, for years.

>This farmer used his own pond water to water the fields. Yet at a

>beach on that same island, near a polluted bay, something growing

>pesky overgrown sea weed was repulsive to them (out of balance local

>condition I guess.)

Or a mold species that is pathogenic to all humans.

Or a mold species that they are sensitive to, but most other people are not.

>I do give my family homemade kefir which does include minute amounts

>of " wild " strains of local molds

Good for you. I've heard this works, for 80% of the people who try it.

Keep us informed. It's great you posted it.

>and other stuff in the air which serves to provide something like an

>allergy shot...a mild challenge to build tolerance. People eat local

>honey for the same reason if they have allergies to pollen.

Eating local produce does introduce into your digestive system low levels

of possible allergens/toxins, and the body's immune system will first

react, then learn to not react to those low levels. So, when you inhale

or touch the identical, or genetic close, or molecular similar, allergen/toxin

your immune system will say " I know you, I do not react. " Or, if you

inhale or digest a high level, your immune system says " I know you,

you are kind of high in level, so I have a minor reaction, to clear you out. "

Or to a very high level, " Oh, way too high, big reaction to clear you out. "

However, the person standing next to you, is from out of state, never

been exposed to that one mold species, and their immune system

says to them " Do not know what you are, you appear safe, but just

in case I will figure out how to defend against you, and recognize you

a the *second* time I see you. "

>I need to replenish the curd with sterile grains after a few months

>as it become too contanminated, and even when I am conscientious

>about this, my most sensitive teen will not take it at all if his

>immune system is already under a great deal of stress from every day exposures.

You are very much your own detective, and doing what works for your family.

>It is always a matter of how stirred up one becomes I guess.

>Dampness can amplify, but sometimes that is not a problem it seems.

Some species die off with too much air moisture.

But the air moisture level holds at just the optimal

level, for a few days, then that mold colony grows

like crazy, releases billions of spores, more colonies

grow next to it, and a severe problem happens in a

few weeks, or days. And does not easily go away.

Some mold species colony can double in size every hour.

28 hours later, just over a day, it is ONE MILLION

TIMES LARGER. That means your dose is level

is 1 million times larger. That might be toxic to

anyone (like breathing dust, dust is not toxic, but

it's the dose, dust or spores can " fill " the lungs).

But humidity levels go up and down, with the wind,

the sun, shade, wind direction, heat build up in

car or house, or shed.

Also, nutrients are needed, either a substrate the

colony is growing on, or airborne brought in by

air currents, or both. You only get a colony

doubling in size every hour, if the species can

do that, and if both moisture and nutrients

are present.

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the ideas!

I will enjoy reading some of the other things you are writing.

Kate

>

> Summary:

> What makes a mold " species " colony grow so fast as to become a danger

> to a few, some, many or all humans?

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

" ....Always happens. As long as the inside mold species " counts "

match the outside, then you are fine. "

~Unless it's Stachybotrys! which is not normally found in the environment. And I

know from experience that chronic low levels of toxic exposure is quite

dangerous just like high levels of acute exposure are dangerous!

Bottom line if your home, work, school has " Toxic Mold " and/or " MVOCs " and/or

" Mycotoxins " it's a health risk to all!

Dana

PS. and clearly there is no such thing as " mold-free " ; but there is

stachybotrys-free!

> >Clearly one needs a mold free living environment,

>

>