Re: Questions for: Oils that eliminate mold---Really?

September 5, 2009

Carl Grimes,

Q. In your first question you ask why would Dr. Close and his information

on Thieves Oil be believed instead of all the other claiming their products

are the best.

A. There are many reasons why his information is becoming more and more

accepted:

1. Dr. R. Close hold a PhD in Environmental Science

2. He hold the title of Professional Engineer

3. He is a member of the Indoor Air Quality Association (IAQA)

4. His methods require sampling before and after remediation to verify

that the problem has been removed

5. He has stated that if the source has not been removed then 1. your

are not following his protocol and 2. the use of the oils will only be a

temporary fix

6. He uses a third party lab to verify type and quantity of mold

spores found in the air.

7. He takes both inside and outside air samples.

a. This is done because mold is considered to be ubiquitous, operating

under that assumption if there was no house there and you took an air sample

you would find mold species

b. Therefore if you take an outside sample you will get an idea of the

amount of mold that would be in the air if there were no problem at all

c. Once you have a baseline of what the mold levels should be then you

can compare that to the indoor levels to determine if there is a problem

8. He recommends careful inspection of the house by either a certified

professional or by an Environmental Engineer that deals with or specializes

in Indoor Air Quality to locate potential water sources, and mold.

So to answer the second part of your questions. The only thing that you

can use is personal testimonials, and the resources that you have in front

of you. Be it website, blog, , answers or whatever but do

the research. Just because it is something that throws a red flag in your

head doesn't mean that it's not true it just means that there are many

people who have no idea what they are talking about or what they are doing

trying to take advantage of people that are sick an desperate. I would

recommend that you look at his website

http://www.moldrx4u.com

<http://www.moldrx4u.com/>

read the articles and the newsletters and

determine for yourself whether you think this is a legitimate resource or

not.

My experience has been in diffusing the oils in my home on a regular basis

for many years, and working with Dr. Close for the past 2 years. In the end

you will have to make the decision yourself whether or not Dr. Close's

protocol would be something you would be interested in. If you have more

questions I would be more than happy to discuss this with you in the group

forums. I'm not trying to sell you anything I just want you to get the

information from the source and not watered down or misunderstood by others.

Close

_____

From: [mailto: ]

On Behalf Of Carl E. Grimes

Sent: Saturday, September 05, 2009 2:54 AM

Subject: [] Questions for: Oils that eliminate mold---Really?

Thanks for the reference, . Two questions for the group:

1. Why would Dr Close and his information on Thieves Oil be

believed instead of all the others claiming their products are the

best?

September 5, 2009

,

Awesome reply! Thank you.

While I may quibble with some of the details, especially about

sampling, what is most important is you have a specific plan

based on industry accepted procedures, you state the plan, you

verify you followed the plan, and you evaluate if the results do

what you wanted it to do. Open and transparent.

I also liked your answer of how you decide what to do. You gather

a variety of information of different types and quality and make a

choice. That the best any of us can ever do regardless of how

much accepted science there is or isn't.

If you don't mind sharing details, what was it about Dr Close and

his methods that helped you decide to take the initial risk with him

rather than others?

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

Carl Grimes,

Q. In your first question you ask why would Dr. Close and his

information

on Thieves Oil be believed instead of all the other claiming their products

are the best.

A. There are many reasons why his information is becoming more and

more

accepted:

1. Dr. R. Close hold a PhD in Environmental Science

2. He hold the title of Professional Engineer

3. He is a member of the Indoor Air Quality Association (IAQA)

4. His methods require sampling before and after remediation to verify

that the problem has been removed

5. He has stated that if the source has not been removed then 1. your

are not following his protocol and 2. the use of the oils will only be a

temporary fix

6. He uses a third party lab to verify type and quantity of mold

spores found in the air.

7. He takes both inside and outside air samples.

a. This is done because mold is considered to be ubiquitous, operating

under that assumption if there was no house there and you took an air

sample

you would find mold species

b. Therefore if you take an outside sample you will get an idea of the

amount of mold that would be in the air if there were no problem at all

c. Once you have a baseline of what the mold levels should be then you

can compare that to the indoor levels to determine if there is a problem

8. He recommends careful inspection of the house by either a certified

professional or by an Environmental Engineer that deals with or

specializes

in Indoor Air Quality to locate potential water sources, and mold.

So to answer the second part of your questions. The only thing that you

can use is personal testimonials, and the resources that you have in front

of you. Be it website, blog, , answers or whatever but

do

the research. Just because it is something that throws a red flag in your

head doesn't mean that it's not true it just means that there are many

people who have no idea what they are talking about or what they are

doing

trying to take advantage of people that are sick an desperate. I would

recommend that you look at his website

http://www.moldrx4u.com

<http://www.moldrx4u.com/>

read the articles and the newsletters and

determine for yourself whether you think this is a legitimate resource or

not.

My experience has been in diffusing the oils in my home on a regular

basis

for many years, and working with Dr. Close for the past 2 years. In the

end

you will have to make the decision yourself whether or not Dr. Close's

protocol would be something you would be interested in. If you have

more

questions I would be more than happy to discuss this with you in the

group

forums. I'm not trying to sell you anything I just want you to get the

information from the source and not watered down or misunderstood by

others.

Close

_____

From: groups (DOT) com

[mailto:groups (DOT) com]

On Behalf Of Carl E. Grimes

Sent: Saturday, September 05, 2009 2:54 AM

groups (DOT) com

Subject: [] Questions for: Oils that eliminate mold---Really?

Thanks for the reference, . Two questions for the group:

1. Why would Dr Close and his information on Thieves Oil be

believed instead of all the others claiming their products are the

best?

----------

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September 5, 2009

Hi, . I noticed your last name is Close. Are you related to Dr. Close?

________________________________

From: Close <josh@...>

Sent: Saturday, September 5, 2009 6:35:19 AM

Subject: RE: [] Questions for: Oils that eliminate mold---Really?

Carl Grimes,

Q. In your first question you ask why would Dr. Close and his information

on Thieves Oil be believed instead of all the other claiming their products

are the best.

A. There are many reasons why his information is becoming more and more

accepted:

1. Dr. R. Close hold a PhD in Environmental Science

2. He hold the title of Professional Engineer

3. He is a member of the Indoor Air Quality Association (IAQA)

September 5, 2009

Here's my experiences:

My friends gave me some thieves and purifcation to use on our car that had some

musty smells coming from the a/c ducts. We had the ducts cleaned out, filters

changed, which helped alot. There was still some odor. Tried both in a car

diffuser at different times. The Purification smells better, but really don't

think either helped much.

These friends have a moldy home. They've had little luck with mold consultants

finding the core of the problem. In the meantime they've been using those oils

and before that the citrisafe candles. They felt all helped but are more into

the oils now, maybe due to costs. But, I never noticed that it did anything more

than mask the odors on two brief occasions in their house.

I think these product sellers ignore the fact that a mold has a source that it

feeds on. You just wind up spending more and more money continually if you don't

fix it.

Sam

From: Carl E. Grimes <grimes@...>

Subject: [] Questions for: Oils that eliminate mold---Really?

Date: Saturday, September 5, 2009, 7:53 AM

Thanks for the reference, . Two questions for the group:

1. Why would Dr Close and his information on Thieves Oil be

believed instead

September 6, 2009

Carl,

For me there really was no initial risk as I am Dr. Close's son. I can tell

you from personal experience that a lot of people contact Dr. Close because they

have heard him on the Power Hour or on Local Radio stations or have read his

book, and they are looking to get rid of mold. When they hear that using Dr.

Close's protocol is

1. Less expensive than most other remediation

2. That it can not only kill but remove mold spores in the air And on

surfaces (as stated by a third party lab: " ..there are no non-viable mold

spores.. " )

3. That is has been shown, with no additional treatment, to have a residual

effect for up to 5 months

4. Has been used in houses where people have chemical / fragrance

sensitivities with little or no side effects

Most people are very interested to hear more. Actually in truth they want to

know if this is for real or not.

If you are interested I can go into detail about how they got started using

the oils for mold remediation and why they are so effective, but again I don't

want people to feel like I am trying to advertise here I just want you to

understand why a scientist like my father would be interested in using the oils

as a professional engineer. Which leads me to the main reason I was responding:

I didn't want people to respond to the question about Dr. Close's protocol that

didn't fully understand how it worked and couldn't answer questions about it.

>

> ,

>

> Awesome reply! Thank you.

>

> While I may quibble with some of the details, especially about

> sampling, what is most important is you have a specific plan

> based on industry accepted procedures, you state the plan, you

> verify you followed the plan, and you evaluate if the results do

> what you wanted it to do. Open and transparent.

>

> I also liked your answer of how you decide what to do. You gather

> a variety of information of different types and quality and make a

> choice. That the best any of us can ever do regardless of how

> much accepted science there is or isn't.

>

> If you don't mind sharing details, what was it about Dr Close and

> his methods that helped you decide to take the initial risk with him

> rather than others?

>

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

>

> -----

> Carl Grimes,

>

> Q. In your first question you ask why would Dr. Close and his

> information

> on Thieves Oil be believed instead of all the other claiming their products

> are the best.

>

> A. There are many reasons why his information is becoming more and

> more

> accepted:

>

> 1. Dr. R. Close hold a PhD in Environmental Science

>

> 2. He hold the title of Professional Engineer

>

> 3. He is a member of the Indoor Air Quality Association (IAQA)

>

> 4. His methods require sampling before and after remediation to verify

> that the problem has been removed

>

> 5. He has stated that if the source has not been removed then 1. your

> are not following his protocol and 2. the use of the oils will only be a

> temporary fix

>

> 6. He uses a third party lab to verify type and quantity of mold

> spores found in the air.

>

> 7. He takes both inside and outside air samples.

>

> a. This is done because mold is considered to be ubiquitous, operating

> under that assumption if there was no house there and you took an air

> sample

> you would find mold species

>

> b. Therefore if you take an outside sample you will get an idea of the

> amount of mold that would be in the air if there were no problem at all

>

> c. Once you have a baseline of what the mold levels should be then you

> can compare that to the indoor levels to determine if there is a problem

>

> 8. He recommends careful inspection of the house by either a certified

> professional or by an Environmental Engineer that deals with or

> specializes

> in Indoor Air Quality to locate potential water sources, and mold.

>

> So to answer the second part of your questions. The only thing that you

> can use is personal testimonials, and the resources that you have in front

> of you. Be it website, blog, , answers or whatever but

> do

> the research. Just because it is something that throws a red flag in your

> head doesn't mean that it's not true it just means that there are many

> people who have no idea what they are talking about or what they are

> doing

> trying to take advantage of people that are sick an desperate. I would

> recommend that you look at his website

>

> http://www.moldrx4u.com

> <http://www.moldrx4u.com/>

>

> read the articles and the newsletters and

> determine for yourself whether you think this is a legitimate resource or

> not.

>

> My experience has been in diffusing the oils in my home on a regular

> basis

> for many years, and working with Dr. Close for the past 2 years. In the

> end

> you will have to make the decision yourself whether or not Dr. Close's

> protocol would be something you would be interested in. If you have

> more

> questions I would be more than happy to discuss this with you in the

> group

> forums. I'm not trying to sell you anything I just want you to get the

> information from the source and not watered down or misunderstood by

> others.

>

> Close

> _____

>

> From: groups (DOT) com

> [mailto:groups (DOT) com]

> On Behalf Of Carl E. Grimes

> Sent: Saturday, September 05, 2009 2:54 AM

> groups (DOT) com

> Subject: [] Questions for: Oils that eliminate mold---Really?

>

> Thanks for the reference, . Two questions for the group:

>

> 1. Why would Dr Close and his information on Thieves Oil be

> believed instead of all the others claiming their products are the

> best?

>

> ----------

>

> The following section of this message contains a file attachment

> prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format.

> If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any other MIME-compliant system,

> you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer.

> If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.

>

> ---- File information -----------

> File: DEFAULT.BMP

> Date: 16 Jun 2009, 0:10

> Size: 358 bytes.

> Type: Unknown

>

September 6, 2009

,

Yes I am Dr. Close's son. I put my name there intentionally so that people

wouldn't feel that I was trying to hide anything. I also wanted people to

understand that I was answering the questions about Dr. Close's protocol because

I have first hand experience working with my father in mold remediation,

including site inspection, sampling and remediation.

As stated in my other response, I also want people to be able to get the

answers straight from the horses mouth so to speak. I know how the protocol

works from working with Fr. Close in numerous houses and office buildings over

the last 2 years and if I can't answer the questions it is very easy for me to

contact him and get the correct answer. Also this is not an offer for a free

consultation as that is virtually impossible without an on-site inspection of

the location. I'm just offering to answer any questions about this protocol

because, while people may quibble some of the details you can not fault it's

effectiveness and that it works where other forms or remediation have either

failed or can't be used because of chemical / fragrance sensitivities.

Josh

>

> Hi, . I noticed your last name is Close. Are you related to Dr. Close?

>

> ________________________________

> From: Close <josh@...>

>

> Sent: Saturday, September 5, 2009 6:35:19 AM

> Subject: RE: [] Questions for: Oils that eliminate mold---Really?

>

> Carl Grimes,

>

> Q. In your first question you ask why would Dr. Close and his information

> on Thieves Oil be believed instead of all the other claiming their products

> are the best.

>

> A. There are many reasons why his information is becoming more and more

> accepted:

>

> 1. Dr. R. Close hold a PhD in Environmental Science

>

> 2. He hold the title of Professional Engineer

>

> 3. He is a member of the Indoor Air Quality Association (IAQA)

>

September 6, 2009

Sorry ,

That for me ruins the credibility factor right there-why is someone

advertising on this group??

On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 8:45 AM, xnavyfoxm <josh@...> wrote:

>

> Carl,

>

> For me there really was no initial risk as I am Dr. Close's son. I can tell

> you from personal experience that a lot of people contact Dr. Close because

> they have heard him on the Power Hour or on Local Radio stations or have

> read his book, and they are looking to get rid of mold. When they hear that

> using Dr. Close's protocol is

>

> 1. Less expensive than most other remediation

> 2. That it can not only kill but remove mold spores in the air And on

> surfaces (as stated by a third party lab: " ..there are no non-viable mold

> spores.. " )

> 3. That is has been shown, with no additional treatment, to have a residual

> effect for up to 5 months

> 4. Has been used in houses where people have chemical / fragrance

> sensitivities with little or no side effects

>

> Most people are very interested to hear more. Actually in truth they want

> to know if this is for real or not.

>

> If you are interested I can go into detail about how they got started using

> the oils for mold remediation and why they are so effective, but again I

> don't want people to feel like I am trying to advertise here I just want you

> to understand why a scientist like my father would be interested in using

> the oils as a professional engineer. Which leads me to the main reason I was

> responding: I didn't want people to respond to the question about Dr.

> Close's protocol that didn't fully understand how it worked and couldn't

> answer questions about it.

>

> >

> > ,

> >

> > Awesome reply! Thank you.

> >

> > While I may quibble with some of the details, especially about

> > sampling, what is most important is you have a specific plan

> > based on industry accepted procedures, you state the plan, you

> > verify you followed the plan, and you evaluate if the results do

> > what you wanted it to do. Open and transparent.

> >

> > I also liked your answer of how you decide what to do. You gather

> > a variety of information of different types and quality and make a

> > choice. That the best any of us can ever do regardless of how

> > much accepted science there is or isn't.

> >

> > If you don't mind sharing details, what was it about Dr Close and

> > his methods that helped you decide to take the initial risk with him

> > rather than others?

> >

> > Carl Grimes

> > Healthy Habitats LLC

> >

> > -----

> > Carl Grimes,

> >

> > Q. In your first question you ask why would Dr. Close and his

> > information

> > on Thieves Oil be believed instead of all the other claiming their

> products

> > are the best.

> >

> > A. There are many reasons why his information is becoming more and

> > more

> > accepted:

> >

> > 1. Dr. R. Close hold a PhD in Environmental Science

> >

> > 2. He hold the title of Professional Engineer

> >

> > 3. He is a member of the Indoor Air Quality Association (IAQA)

> >

> > 4. His methods require sampling before and after remediation to verify

> > that the problem has been removed

> >

> > 5. He has stated that if the source has not been removed then 1. your

> > are not following his protocol and 2. the use of the oils will only be a

> > temporary fix

> >

> > 6. He uses a third party lab to verify type and quantity of mold

> > spores found in the air.

> >

> > 7. He takes both inside and outside air samples.

> >

> > a. This is done because mold is considered to be ubiquitous, operating

> > under that assumption if there was no house there and you took an air

> > sample

> > you would find mold species

> >

> > b. Therefore if you take an outside sample you will get an idea of the

> > amount of mold that would be in the air if there were no problem at all

> >

> > c. Once you have a baseline of what the mold levels should be then you

> > can compare that to the indoor levels to determine if there is a problem

> >

> > 8. He recommends careful inspection of the house by either a certified

> > professional or by an Environmental Engineer that deals with or

> > specializes

> > in Indoor Air Quality to locate potential water sources, and mold.

> >

> > So to answer the second part of your questions. The only thing that you

> > can use is personal testimonials, and the resources that you have in

> front

> > of you. Be it website, blog, , answers or whatever but

> > do

> > the research. Just because it is something that throws a red flag in your

> > head doesn't mean that it's not true it just means that there are many

> > people who have no idea what they are talking about or what they are

> > doing

> > trying to take advantage of people that are sick an desperate. I would

> > recommend that you look at his website

> >

> > http://www.moldrx4u.com

> > <http://www.moldrx4u.com/>

> >

> > read the articles and the newsletters and

> > determine for yourself whether you think this is a legitimate resource or

> > not.

> >

> > My experience has been in diffusing the oils in my home on a regular

> > basis

> > for many years, and working with Dr. Close for the past 2 years. In the

> > end

> > you will have to make the decision yourself whether or not Dr. Close's

> > protocol would be something you would be interested in. If you have

> > more

> > questions I would be more than happy to discuss this with you in the

> > group

> > forums. I'm not trying to sell you anything I just want you to get the

> > information from the source and not watered down or misunderstood by

> > others.

> >

> > Close

> > _____

> >

> > From: groups (DOT) com

> > [mailto:groups (DOT) com]

> > On Behalf Of Carl E. Grimes

> > Sent: Saturday, September 05, 2009 2:54 AM

> > groups (DOT) com

> > Subject: [] Questions for: Oils that eliminate

> mold---Really?

> >

> > Thanks for the reference, . Two questions for the group:

> >

> > 1. Why would Dr Close and his information on Thieves Oil be

> > believed instead of all the others claiming their products are the

> > best?

> >

> > ----------

> >

> > The following section of this message contains a file attachment

> > prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format.

> > If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any other MIME-compliant system,

> > you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer.

> > If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.

> >

> > ---- File information -----------

> > File: DEFAULT.BMP

> > Date: 16 Jun 2009, 0:10

> > Size: 358 bytes.

> > Type: Unknown

> >

September 6, 2009

, we didn't realize who Josh was until noticed his last name was

Close. Thanks for pointing this out. He didn't post any links to

products he was telling us about. We do allow discussion of products that may

help. It would have been helpful had Josh stated up front he was son of Dr

Close. It's possible someone has something to sell and ALSO product is good, so

no reason to bann a discussion but person should state up front that he has is

'right from the horse's mouth' because he's related. We don't tolerate selling

to this group if you are person who profits from the sale but he did not try to

post any links to his website...yet, anyway.

To me, though, we have discussed that killing mold is not the healthy goal. You

have to remove source. Anything that kills mold can be helpful once siuation

has been solved, in order have cleaner air, but healthy condition has to already

be present, otherwise, you just get mycotoxins instead of mold spores, so no

real advantage to that. Room will smell better with mold spores gone from room

but it is as dangerous as it was before because you will constantly be

generating mycotoxins, or the left over products of continually killing mold.

It might work well to clean items in room, use as a surface antiseptic. I

wonder about the desireability of it being aerosolized, might it become a

respiratory irritant? Seem just 'clean' air without anything in it would be

healthier air. Are we really meant to breath in long term, aerosolized highly

acidic oils, natural or not, possibly with mycotoxin clinging to aerosolized

particles?

>

> Sorry ,

>

> That for me ruins the credibility factor right there-why is someone

> advertising on this group??

>

September 6, 2009

In regards to stating up front.. I thought that signing my full name

instead of being anonymously xnavyfoxm would have been sufficient in

stating up front that I was related and that my statement " I'm not

trying to sell you anything I just want you to get the information from

the source and not watered down or misunderstood by others. "

This is also why in continued responses I am stating up front that I can

continue the discussion and would be happy to but " again I don't want

people to feel like I am trying to advertise here I just want you to

understand why a scientist like my father would be interested in using

the oils as a professional engineer. Which leads me to the main reason I

was responding: I didn't want people to respond to the question about

Dr. Close's protocol that didn't fully understand how it worked and

couldn't answer questions about it. "

>

> , we didn't realize who Josh was until noticed his last

name was Close.

September 6, 2009

, please, continue. I am fascinated. See my earlier post about Tea Tree

and other oil experiences.

Thanx.

Armour, M.S.

Director, Cleveland Chapter of Indoor Air Quality Association

September 6, 2009

I think was fairly clear, he signed his name in full. He stated he was

not trying to sell, but explain.

He provided clear unambiguous protocols that the Dr. uses.

He is providing good basic info about how it works; he is offering to provide

more.

Sometimes, the seller is the person who really does know the most. That is their

job.

As long as it's transparent and open to honest criticism, it should be

acceptable.

IMHO,

Armour, M.S.

Director, Cleveland Chapter of Indoor Air Quality Association

September 6, 2009

My apologies if I offended any-one, I know that no-one knew that he was

related until found out, the resume that posted about his

Father however appeared to be an advertisement although no website was

attached. It would be extremely easy however for someone to google his

information with all of the extensive info that kindly provided!!-I

guess after spending $10,000's on people who claim to have the cure, I am

always very cynical and suspicious and so afraid for those who are so

desperate for a cure they are willing to try anything that can sometimes be

to their demise or that can give them false hope...

.

On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 10:51 AM, barb1283 <barb1283@...> wrote:

>, we didn't realize who Josh was until noticed his last name was

> Close.

September 6, 2009

Barb,

Hate to beat a dead horse, but did post his Father's website in his

first message before he had disclosed his realtionship to Dr Close in

www.moldrx4u.

That link takes you directly to the website where you can buy your " cure " .

On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 10:51 AM, barb1283 <barb1283@...> wrote:

>, we didn't realize who Josh was until noticed his last name was

> Close.

September 6, 2009

Thanks . I didn't see it.

Note to members: providing links to websites that sell things you have a

connection to is forbidden without first getting permission from group owner.

Just a reminder.

>

> Barb, Hate to beat a dead horse, but did post his Father's website in

his

> first message before he had disclosed his realtionship to Dr Close in

> www.moldrx4u.

> That link takes you directly to the website where you can buy your " cure " .

September 6, 2009

,

With respect I have to disagree with you, if he isn't trying to sell his

protocol, then why post all the backround info on his Father's

qualifications ands add the website address, by the way this is a family

business, Mom is mentioned too. Because we are all so very ill and there is

really no help out there and leaving our home is sometimes impossible and

frightening, mold poisoned individuals are very susceptible to these

" miracle cures " We were lucky? and could afford to get out of the home,

unfortunately a lot of people are not so fortunate and are " prime targets "

for opportunistic vendors who jump on the " toxic mold bandwagon " . Maybe the

oils reduce the mold spores-who knows. The mycotoxins are what kill you

,will the oils kill those???

Please look at his site www.moldrx4u.com please tell me that it is not a

website aimed at people like us who are desperate for help. Unless you

have lived what most of us are living on this site, having lost

everything,their home,finances and most importantly their health. This

website promises a * " moldremedy " . *Sorry group to keep harping on this, but

It infuriates me when people claim to have a cure. his site claims to have a

" non toxic solution to toxic mold' Again what about the ,mycotoxins???, this

website is very misleading!!

Again certainly not an attack on you , just frustrated with people who

make exaggerated claims and take advantage of those who are stuck in

nightmare situations such as the majority of the people on this group.

Sincerely,

Meng.

On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 12:27 PM, scottarmour@... <scottarmour@...>wrote:

>I think was fairly clear, he signed his name in full. He stated he was

not trying to sell, but explain.

September 7, 2009

,

You are right this is a family business and I probably shouldn't have linked

the website. I apologize for offending anyone or even giving the impression of

trying to sell something. This was not nor is it my intention. In my defense

the only reason that I linked the website was due to another post linking a

website that had copied old information from Dr. Close's website I listed and

they did not have first hand experience with using Dr. Close's protocol. I am a

firm believer in getting the information from the source and then corroborating

this information with other people or even testing it myself. Again I do

apologize for any misconception that I may have created I just wanted people to

get the right information from the source and not some place that parrots what

Dr. Close is saying but has no real understanding of how it works.

You asked why I was giving the background information on my father. I was

giving this information because Carl E. Grimes asked " Why would Dr Close and his

information on Thieves Oil be

believed instead of all the others claiming their products are the

best? " I believe that his background information and credentials would help

give credence to his statements.

Also if you look back at the post I am not saying that the use of oils will

fix your problems, what we are saying is that if you follow the protocol, which

includes removing the source of water/moisture, developed by Dr. Close then if

there are mold species in your house that do not exist outside, verified by the

sampling taken, we have had 100% success with the removal of these mold spores

and we have shown reductions in levels of mold spores from levels many times

greater than found outside.

To give you some background on this. Mold is everywhere and no matter what

you do and no matter how much you clean your house or wherever you live there

will be mold, unless you live in a bubble or a vacuum. What we are doing is

offering a solution to molds that are not found in the air and reducing the

levels of mold to outside levels or below. This is the best anyone can ever

hope for again barring living in a bubble or a vacuum.

We do not claim anything regarding the mycotoxins as Dr. Close has not done

any scientific research to determine the effects of the Thieves Oil on

mycotoxins. Therefor for him to make statements concerning the effects Thieves

Oil has on mycotoxins would be nothing short of irresponsible and would make him

no better than other people claiming miracle cures. This is not his goal and is

not what he is trying to do. He is trying to provide scientific information

that shows that mold spores can be removed in the air and on surfaces which

would be the only way to actually clean a house of mold. If you just clean the

surfaces this will only give you a false sense of security and your health will

continue to decline because you cannot see the mold spores in the air and all

you are really seeing of mold when you " see " it is the fruiting structure or

hyphae. The hyphae is not the mold spores which produce the mycotoxins so

cleaning the hyphae is actually just putting mold spores into the air. To use

an analogy if you had an orange tree that was 1 hundredth of a millimeter tall

then do you think that you would be able to see the oranges growing on it? No,

you would be able to see the leaves that were providing food so the oranges

could grow. This is similar to mold spores (oranges) and the Hyphae (orange

tree).

What we have found is that the Thieves oil does remove mold spores in the air

and on surfaces. I say removed because according to the lab, when analyzing the

spore trap samples the found no non-viable mold spores. What this means is that

the found no dead mold spores which can still be an allergen. This was also

verified by taking tape lift samples of the floor and the lab, which is a third

party lab, confirmed that there were no non-viable mold spores detected. So we

have found a non-toxic solution to toxic mold. We do NOT claim to have found a

non-toxic solution to mycotoxins because we do not know the effects of Thieves

oil on mycotoxins as none of us are mycologists.

You stated that the mycotoxins are what kill you and that is definitely the

case, but let me ask you this. If you were in a house filled with mold and you

moved, in essence you were moving away from the mold. If you could remove the

mold which is what creates the mycotoxins then would it be necessary to move?

Dr. Close's protocol is designed to remove the problem so you don't have to keep

fixing it. If you just took care of the mycotoxins and not the mold, which I'm

not even sure if that's possible to do, you would have to keep fixing the

mycotoxins forever. So why focus on the symptom when you can focus on the

source?

Also we do know that mycotoxins are created by specific species of mold, these

are the ones most commonly termed " toxic mold " or " black mold " which include

Stachybotrys Chartarum, Aspergillius, Cladisporium, and others. We also know

that some species of mold that do not normally produce mycotoxins can produce

them if other species of mold show up. So back to what I stated earlier if you

can actually remove the mold from your home that is creating the mycotoxins is

this not the same as moving to another home.

Also I want to clear something up, I started into this discussion because

someone had mention Dr. Close and his use of Thieves Oil. I have been a member

in here since June of this year, and I have not posted because I knew that

people felt that using essential oils were similar to " snake oil " sold as a scam

cure-all in the west. I am entering this discussion because I feel that if you

are going to ask questions about Dr. Close's protocol you should get answers

from someone that knows how to answer them.

>

> ,

>

> With respect I have to disagree with you, if he isn't trying to sell his

> protocol, then why post all the backround info on his Father's

> qualifications ands add the website address,

September 7, 2009

,

Thank you, again, for the time and effort you have spent

educating us on Dr Close's protocol. You have cleared up much

for me.

I would now like to comment on what still is not clear for the

purpose of hearing from someone who knows the protocol.

1. " ...Grimes asked " Why would Dr Close and his information on

Thieves Oil be believed instead of all the others claiming their

products are the best? " I believe that his background information

and credentials would help give credence to his statements.'

CG: The claims of others include their background information

and credentials, also. So what is different about Dr Close?

Because you said he is not a mycologist would you or he defer to

a mycologist if there were a difference of opinion? BTW, a

mycologist studies more than just mycotoxins. They study the

biology of fungi, conditions for growth, the structures of the

biomass, viable and non-viable, and emanations from the

biomass.

2. " ...if you follow the protocol, which includes removing the

source of water/moisture, developed by Dr. Close then if there

are mold species in your house that do not exist outside, verified

by the sampling taken, we have had 100% success with the

removal of these mold spores and we have shown reductions in

levels of mold spores from levels many times greater than found

outside. "

CG: I'm glad you require fixing the moisture. But I don't

understand the next statement. It says (paraphrasing), the

protocol is effective at removing inside mold species that don't

exist outside. Then you say sampling verifies the removal of

these inside mold spores to below outside levels. But they don't

exist outside to begin with. Can you clarify?

Also, which sampling and analysis method is being used to

identify species? Futher on you cite the use of spore traps. But

spore traps cannot identify species. They cannot even distinguish

the genera of spores of Penicillium from Aspergillus. Unless a

sampling and analytical method is used which identifies species

the conclusions are invalid.

3. " What we are doing is offering a solution to molds that are not

found in the air and reducing the levels of mold to outside levels

or below. "

CG: This further confuses what the protocol does. Now you are

saying you are reducing inside levels to less than outside levels.

Which doesn't agree with the previous statement. Also, and more

importantly, you say these are molds " that are not found in the

air. " Which I interpret as molds on surfaces. But molds on

surfaces originate in the air. Help me out here.

4. In the paragraph on mycotoxins, which you say Dr Close has

not researched: " ...scientific information that shows that mold

spores can be removed in the air and on surfaces which would

be the only way to actually clean a house of mold. "

CG: Now you are saying both airborne mold and surface mold

should be removed. But your protocol only applies to mold in the

air. I disagree with the only way to clean a house. The only way to

actually clean a house of mold is to include the interstitial voids

and other complex structures which are typically in a house. Also,

the systems of the house. Removing mold is more than surfaces

such as tables and floors which we routinely clean anyway.

5. " The hyphae is not the mold spores which produce the

mycotoxins so cleaning the hyphae is actually just putting mold

spores into the air. "

CG: Actually, the hyphae are part of the mold growth biomass

which produces mycotoxins. and they contain mycotoxins, along

with all the other components of mold growth such as proteins,

glucans, enzymes, proteinases, etc. Recent studies show hyphal

counts to be 10-100 times higher than for spores. And I know of

no method which removes hyphae without also removing spores.

I don't understand the statement that cleaning hyphae puts mold

spores into the air.

6. " I say removed because according to the lab, when analyzing

the spore trap samples the (sic) found no non-viable mold

spores. "

CG: Spore traps collect both non-viable and viable spores. A

more correct term would be " total spores. " I'm surprised they

found " none " because as you say at the beginning of your

narrative mold spores are everywhere all the time. Even clean

rooms rarely have " no mold spores. " Analysis of the spore traps

cannot distinguish between viable and non-viable.

7. " What this means is that the (sic) found no dead mold spores

which can still be an allergen. "

CG: Dead mold spores are still allergens. Even if some weren't

spore trap analysis can't tell the difference. How is this claim

supported?

8. " We do NOT claim to have found a non-toxic solution to

mycotoxins because we do not know the effects of Thieves oil on

mycotoxins as none of us are mycologists. "

CG: I think it might be wise to consult with mycologists before

making any of the above claims, whether about mycotoxins or the

others properties of mold. Especially because of the statements

which follow.

9. " If you could remove the mold which is what creates the

mycotoxins then would it be necessary to move? "

CG: There is more complexity involved than I can fully explain

here. Removing mold seems to mean, according to Dr Close's

protocol, removing mold spores. But the hyphae also need to be

removed. As does any active mold growth, including that which is

inside walls and other structures. I also want to emphasize that

the mycotoxin hypothesis has not yet been satisfactorily

explained. The residual after cleaning which most people on this

group reacts to may be mycotoxins and it may be endotoxins or

something else generated from mold growth (and filth caused by

dampness) that hasn't yet been discovered. What we all know is

that " something " reactive remains after professional cleanup for

the more sensitive among us. So I would not agree with the claim

that removing mold means a person doesn't have to move. Many

on this group would certainly dispute that claim with real-life

hardship.

10. " If you just took care of the mycotoxins and not the mold,

which I'm not even sure if that's possible to do, you would have to

keep fixing the mycotoxins forever. So why focus on the symptom

when you can focus on the source? "

CG: I have no idea how to " just take care of the mycotoxins and

not the mold. " Or how to keep " fixing the mycotoxins. " Mycotoxins

are not the symptom, but a secondary metabolite of mold growth.

This is another example of why you and Dr Close ought to

consult with a qualified mycologist.

11. " Also we do know that mycotoxins are created by specific

species of mold, these are the ones most commonly termed

" toxic mold " or " black mold " which include Stachybotrys

Chartarum, Aspergillius, Cladisporium, and others. We also know

that some species of mold that do not normally produce

mycotoxins can produce them if other species of mold show up. "

CG: One thing there is great agreement on is that any species

can create mycotoxins under the right conditions. But the right

conditions aren't always present. Which is why molds are

properly called " toxigenic " rather than " toxic. " Because they can

but don't always. Stachybotrys is actually more dark green than

black and there are approximatley 20,000 black mold species,

most more common than Stachybotrys. None of the others you

mentioned are black, some are white and some are light green.

12. " I am entering this discussion because I feel that if you are

going to ask questions about Dr. Close's protocol you should get

answers from someone that knows how to answer them. "

CG: That is why I am pointing out the above confusions and

errors to you, so someone who knows the protocol can answer

them.

One last point. I think you are saying that proper removal of mold

from surfaces removes the mold and there should be no problem.

That the real difficulty is removing mold from the air because that

mold cannot be seen or otherwise cleaned. Dr Close's protocol is

very effective at removing airborne mold.

My question, assuming that is true, is how Dr Close's protocol is

better at removing mold from the air than other methods?

So I return to my original question: What is different about Dr

Close's protocol that other protocols (S520, EPA, NYC,

California, AIHA) don't already perform? So far, I don't see any

which make a difference, but I may be missing something.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> ,

>

> You are right this is a family business and I probably shouldn't have linked

the website. I apologize for

> offending anyone or even giving the impression of trying to sell something.

This was not nor is it my

> intention. In my defense the only reason that I linked the website was due to

another post linking a website

> that had copied old information from Dr. Close's website I listed and they did

not have first hand experience

> with using Dr. Close's protocol. I am a firm believer in getting the

information from the source and then

> corroborating this information with other people or even testing it myself.

Again I do apologize for any

> misconception that I may have created I just wanted people to get the right

information from the source and

> not some place that parrots what Dr. Close is saying but has no real

understanding of how it works.

>

> You asked why I was giving the background information on my father. I was

giving this information because

> Carl E. Grimes asked " Why would Dr Close and his information on Thieves Oil be

> believed instead of all the others claiming their products are the

> best? " I believe that his background information and credentials would help

give credence to his statements.

>

> Also if you look back at the post I am not saying that the use of oils will

fix your problems, what we are saying

> is that if you follow the protocol, which includes removing the source of

water/moisture, developed by Dr.

> Close then if there are mold species in your house that do not exist outside,

verified by the sampling taken,

> we have had 100% success with the removal of these mold spores and we have

shown reductions in levels of

> mold spores from levels many times greater than found outside.

>

> To give you some background on this. Mold is everywhere and no matter what you

do and no matter how

> much you clean your house or wherever you live there will be mold, unless you

live in a bubble or a vacuum.

> What we are doing is offering a solution to molds that are not found in the

air and reducing the levels of mold

> to outside levels or below. This is the best anyone can ever hope for again

barring living in a bubble or a

> vacuum.

>

> We do not claim anything regarding the mycotoxins as Dr. Close has not done

any scientific research to

> determine the effects of the Thieves Oil on mycotoxins. Therefor for him to

make statements concerning the

> effects Thieves Oil has on mycotoxins would be nothing short of irresponsible

and would make him no better

> than other people claiming miracle cures. This is not his goal and is not what

he is trying to do. He is trying

> to provide scientific information that shows that mold spores can be removed

in the air and on surfaces

> which would be the only way to actually clean a house of mold. If you just

clean the surfaces this will only give

> you a false sense of security and your health will continue to decline because

you cannot see the mold spores

> in the air and all you are really seeing of mold when you " see " it is the

fruiting structure or hyphae. The

> hyphae is not the mold spores which produce the mycotoxins so cleaning the

hyphae is actually just putting

> mold spores into the air. To use an

> What we have found is that the Thieves oil does remove mold spores in the air

and on surfaces. I say removed

> because according to the lab, when analyzing the spore trap samples the found

no non-viable mold spores.

> What this means is that the found no dead mold spores which can still be an

allergen. This was also verified

> by taking tape lift samples of the floor and the lab, which is a third party

lab, confirmed that there were no

> non-viable mold spores detected. So we have found a non-toxic solution to

toxic mold. We do NOT claim to

> have found a non-toxic solution to mycotoxins because we do not know the

effects of Thieves oil on

> mycotoxins as none of us are mycologists.

>

> You stated that the mycotoxins are what kill you and that is definitely the

case, but let me ask you this. If you

> were in a house filled with mold and you moved, in essence you were moving

away from the mold. If you

> could remove the mold which is what creates the mycotoxins then would it be

necessary to move? Dr. Close's

> protocol is designed to remove the problem so you don't have to keep fixing

it. If you just took care of the

> mycotoxins and not the mold, which I'm not even sure if that's possible to do,

you would have to keep fixing

> the mycotoxins forever. So why focus on the symptom when you can focus on the

source?

>

> Also we do know that mycotoxins are created by specific species of mold, these

are the ones most commonly

> termed " toxic mold " or " black mold " which include Stachybotrys Chartarum,

Aspergillius, Cladisporium, and

> others. We also know that some species of mold that do not normally produce

mycotoxins can produce them

> if other species of mold show up. So back to what I stated earlier if you can

actually remove the mold from

> your home that is creating the mycotoxins is this not the same as moving to

another home.

>

> Also I want to clear something up, I started into this discussion because

someone had mention Dr. Close and

> his use of Thieves Oil. I have been a member in here since June of this year,

and I have not posted because I

> knew that people felt that using essential oils were similar to " snake oil "

sold as a scam cure-all in the west. I

> am entering this discussion because I feel that if you are going to ask

questions about Dr. Close's protocol you

> should get answers from someone that knows how to answer them.

>

> >

> > ,

> >

> > With respect I have to disagree with you, if he isn't trying to sell his

> > protocol, then why post all the backround info on his Father's

> > qualifications ands add the website address,

>

September 7, 2009

Carl,

Thank you for so eloquently adressing 's e-mail, I am by no means an

expert, although after numerous depositons with both our IH and Dr Yang and

our lengthy trial process, I do know that what stated about the

hyphae and mycotoxins is not true. It is very dangerous when people make

claims to have a cure so you don't need to leave your house. As you stated,

it is neccessary to literally bring the house down to it's studs in some

cases such as ours. Cleaning the airborne and surface mold will NOT cure the

home of the deadly mycotoxins.Unfortunately this sounds very like one of the

" 3 day class " mold inspectors we hired before we finally learned our lesson

and brought in the IH.

Thank you.

On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 5:49 AM, Carl E. Grimes <grimes@...> wrote:

>

> ,

>

> Thank you, again, for the time and effort you have spent

> educating us on Dr Close's protocol. You have cleared up much

> for me.

>

> I would now like to comment on what still is not clear for the

> purpose of hearing from someone who knows the protocol.

>

> 1. " ...Grimes asked " Why would Dr Close and his information on

> Thieves Oil be believed instead of all the others claiming their

> products are the best? " I believe that his background information

> and credentials would help give credence to his statements.'

>

> CG: The claims of others include their background information

> and credentials, also. So what is different about Dr Close?

> Because you said he is not a mycologist would you or he defer to

> a mycologist if there were a difference of opinion? BTW, a

> mycologist studies more than just mycotoxins. They study the

> biology of fungi, conditions for growth, the structures of the

> biomass, viable and non-viable, and emanations from the

> biomass.

>

> 2. " ...if you follow the protocol, which includes removing the

> source of water/moisture, developed by Dr. Close then if there

> are mold species in your house that do not exist outside, verified

> by the sampling taken, we have had 100% success with the

> removal of these mold spores and we have shown reductions in

> levels of mold spores from levels many times greater than found

> outside. "

>

> CG: I'm glad you require fixing the moisture. But I don't

> understand the next statement. It says (paraphrasing), the

> protocol is effective at removing inside mold species that don't

> exist outside. Then you say sampling verifies the removal of

> these inside mold spores to below outside levels. But they don't

> exist outside to begin with. Can you clarify?

>

> Also, which sampling and analysis method is being used to

> identify species? Futher on you cite the use of spore traps. But

> spore traps cannot identify species. They cannot even distinguish

> the genera of spores of Penicillium from Aspergillus. Unless a

> sampling and analytical method is used which identifies species

> the conclusions are invalid.

>

> 3. " What we are doing is offering a solution to molds that are not

> found in the air and reducing the levels of mold to outside levels

> or below. "

>

> CG: This further confuses what the protocol does. Now you are

> saying you are reducing inside levels to less than outside levels.

> Which doesn't agree with the previous statement. Also, and more

> importantly, you say these are molds " that are not found in the

> air. " Which I interpret as molds on surfaces. But molds on

> surfaces originate in the air. Help me out here.

>

> 4. In the paragraph on mycotoxins, which you say Dr Close has

> not researched: " ...scientific information that shows that mold

> spores can be removed in the air and on surfaces which would

> be the only way to actually clean a house of mold. "

>

> CG: Now you are saying both airborne mold and surface mold

> should be removed. But your protocol only applies to mold in the

> air. I disagree with the only way to clean a house. The only way to

> actually clean a house of mold is to include the interstitial voids

> and other complex structures which are typically in a house. Also,

> the systems of the house. Removing mold is more than surfaces

> such as tables and floors which we routinely clean anyway.

>

> 5. " The hyphae is not the mold spores which produce the

> mycotoxins so cleaning the hyphae is actually just putting mold

> spores into the air. "

>

> CG: Actually, the hyphae are part of the mold growth biomass

> which produces mycotoxins. and they contain mycotoxins, along

> with all the other components of mold growth such as proteins,

> glucans, enzymes, proteinases, etc. Recent studies show hyphal

> counts to be 10-100 times higher than for spores. And I know of

> no method which removes hyphae without also removing spores.

> I don't understand the statement that cleaning hyphae puts mold

> spores into the air.

>

> 6. " I say removed because according to the lab, when analyzing

> the spore trap samples the (sic) found no non-viable mold

> spores. "

>

> CG: Spore traps collect both non-viable and viable spores. A

> more correct term would be " total spores. " I'm surprised they

> found " none " because as you say at the beginning of your

> narrative mold spores are everywhere all the time. Even clean

> rooms rarely have " no mold spores. " Analysis of the spore traps

> cannot distinguish between viable and non-viable.

>

> 7. " What this means is that the (sic) found no dead mold spores

> which can still be an allergen. "

>

> CG: Dead mold spores are still allergens. Even if some weren't

> spore trap analysis can't tell the difference. How is this claim

> supported?

>

> 8. " We do NOT claim to have found a non-toxic solution to

> mycotoxins because we do not know the effects of Thieves oil on

> mycotoxins as none of us are mycologists. "

>

> CG: I think it might be wise to consult with mycologists before

> making any of the above claims, whether about mycotoxins or the

> others properties of mold. Especially because of the statements

> which follow.

>

> 9. " If you could remove the mold which is what creates the

> mycotoxins then would it be necessary to move? "

>

> CG: There is more complexity involved than I can fully explain

> here. Removing mold seems to mean, according to Dr Close's

> protocol, removing mold spores. But the hyphae also need to be

> removed. As does any active mold growth, including that which is

> inside walls and other structures. I also want to emphasize that

> the mycotoxin hypothesis has not yet been satisfactorily

> explained. The residual after cleaning which most people on this

> group reacts to may be mycotoxins and it may be endotoxins or

> something else generated from mold growth (and filth caused by

> dampness) that hasn't yet been discovered. What we all know is

> that " something " reactive remains after professional cleanup for

> the more sensitive among us. So I would not agree with the claim

> that removing mold means a person doesn't have to move. Many

> on this group would certainly dispute that claim with real-life

> hardship.

>

> 10. " If you just took care of the mycotoxins and not the mold,

> which I'm not even sure if that's possible to do, you would have to

> keep fixing the mycotoxins forever. So why focus on the symptom

> when you can focus on the source? "

>

> CG: I have no idea how to " just take care of the mycotoxins and

> not the mold. " Or how to keep " fixing the mycotoxins. " Mycotoxins

> are not the symptom, but a secondary metabolite of mold growth.

> This is another example of why you and Dr Close ought to

> consult with a qualified mycologist.

>

> 11. " Also we do know that mycotoxins are created by specific

> species of mold, these are the ones most commonly termed

> " toxic mold " or " black mold " which include Stachybotrys

> Chartarum, Aspergillius, Cladisporium, and others. We also know

> that some species of mold that do not normally produce

> mycotoxins can produce them if other species of mold show up. "

>

> CG: One thing there is great agreement on is that any species

> can create mycotoxins under the right conditions. But the right

> conditions aren't always present. Which is why molds are

> properly called " toxigenic " rather than " toxic. " Because they can

> but don't always. Stachybotrys is actually more dark green than

> black and there are approximatley 20,000 black mold species,

> most more common than Stachybotrys. None of the others you

> mentioned are black, some are white and some are light green.

>

> 12. " I am entering this discussion because I feel that if you are

> going to ask questions about Dr. Close's protocol you should get

> answers from someone that knows how to answer them. "

>

> CG: That is why I am pointing out the above confusions and

> errors to you, so someone who knows the protocol can answer

> them.

>

> One last point. I think you are saying that proper removal of mold

> from surfaces removes the mold and there should be no problem.

> That the real difficulty is removing mold from the air because that

> mold cannot be seen or otherwise cleaned. Dr Close's protocol is

> very effective at removing airborne mold.

>

> My question, assuming that is true, is how Dr Close's protocol is

> better at removing mold from the air than other methods?

>

> So I return to my original question: What is different about Dr

> Close's protocol that other protocols (S520, EPA, NYC,

> California, AIHA) don't already perform? So far, I don't see any

> which make a difference, but I may be missing something.

>

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

>

> -----

> > ,

> >

> > You are right this is a family business and I probably shouldn't have

> linked the website. I apologize for

> > offending anyone or even giving the impression of trying to sell

> something. This was not nor is it my

> > intention. In my defense the only reason that I linked the website was

> due to another post linking a website

> > that had copied old information from Dr. Close's website I listed and

> they did not have first hand experience

> > with using Dr. Close's protocol. I am a firm believer in getting the

> information from the source and then

> > corroborating this information with other people or even testing it

> myself. Again I do apologize for any

> > misconception that I may have created I just wanted people to get the

> right information from the source and

> > not some place that parrots what Dr. Close is saying but has no real

> understanding of how it works.

> >

> > You asked why I was giving the background information on my father. I was

> giving this information because

> > Carl E. Grimes asked " Why would Dr Close and his information on Thieves

> Oil be

> > believed instead of all the others claiming their products are the

> > best? " I believe that his background information and credentials would

> help give credence to his statements.

> >

> > Also if you look back at the post I am not saying that the use of oils

> will fix your problems, what we are saying

> > is that if you follow the protocol, which includes removing the source of

> water/moisture, developed by Dr.

> > Close then if there are mold species in your house that do not exist

> outside, verified by the sampling taken,

> > we have had 100% success with the removal of these mold spores and we

> have shown reductions in levels of

> > mold spores from levels many times greater than found outside.

> >

> > To give you some background on this. Mold is everywhere and no matter

> what you do and no matter how

> > much you clean your house or wherever you live there will be mold, unless

> you live in a bubble or a vacuum.

> > What we are doing is offering a solution to molds that are not found in

> the air and reducing the levels of mold

> > to outside levels or below. This is the best anyone can ever hope for

> again barring living in a bubble or a

> > vacuum.

> >

> > We do not claim anything regarding the mycotoxins as Dr. Close has not

> done any scientific research to

> > determine the effects of the Thieves Oil on mycotoxins. Therefor for him

> to make statements concerning the

> > effects Thieves Oil has on mycotoxins would be nothing short of

> irresponsible and would make him no better

> > than other people claiming miracle cures. This is not his goal and is not

> what he is trying to do. He is trying

> > to provide scientific information that shows that mold spores can be

> removed in the air and on surfaces

> > which would be the only way to actually clean a house of mold. If you

> just clean the surfaces this will only give

> > you a false sense of security and your health will continue to decline

> because you cannot see the mold spores

> > in the air and all you are really seeing of mold when you " see " it is the

> fruiting structure or hyphae. The

> > hyphae is not the mold spores which produce the mycotoxins so cleaning

> the hyphae is actually just putting

> > mold spores into the air. To use an

> > What we have found is that the Thieves oil does remove mold spores in the

> air and on surfaces. I say removed

> > because according to the lab, when analyzing the spore trap samples the

> found no non-viable mold spores.

> > What this means is that the found no dead mold spores which can still be

> an allergen. This was also verified

> > by taking tape lift samples of the floor and the lab, which is a third

> party lab, confirmed that there were no

> > non-viable mold spores detected. So we have found a non-toxic solution to

> toxic mold. We do NOT claim to

> > have found a non-toxic solution to mycotoxins because we do not know the

> effects of Thieves oil on

> > mycotoxins as none of us are mycologists.

> >

> > You stated that the mycotoxins are what kill you and that is definitely

> the case, but let me ask you this. If you

> > were in a house filled with mold and you moved, in essence you were

> moving away from the mold. If you

> > could remove the mold which is what creates the mycotoxins then would it

> be necessary to move? Dr. Close's

> > protocol is designed to remove the problem so you don't have to keep

> fixing it. If you just took care of the

> > mycotoxins and not the mold, which I'm not even sure if that's possible

> to do, you would have to keep fixing

> > the mycotoxins forever. So why focus on the symptom when you can focus on

> the source?

> >

> > Also we do know that mycotoxins are created by specific species of mold,

> these are the ones most commonly

> > termed " toxic mold " or " black mold " which include Stachybotrys Chartarum,

> Aspergillius, Cladisporium, and

> > others. We also know that some species of mold that do not normally

> produce mycotoxins can produce them

> > if other species of mold show up. So back to what I stated earlier if you

> can actually remove the mold from

> > your home that is creating the mycotoxins is this not the same as moving

> to another home.

> >

> > Also I want to clear something up, I started into this discussion because

> someone had mention Dr. Close and

> > his use of Thieves Oil. I have been a member in here since June of this

> year, and I have not posted because I

> > knew that people felt that using essential oils were similar to " snake

> oil " sold as a scam cure-all in the west. I

> > am entering this discussion because I feel that if you are going to ask

> questions about Dr. Close's protocol you

> > should get answers from someone that knows how to answer them.

> >

> > >

> > > ,

> > >

> > > With respect I have to disagree with you, if he isn't trying to sell

> his

> > > protocol, then why post all the backround info on his Father's

> > > qualifications ands add the website address,

> >

>

September 7, 2009

Hi,

I'm sorry- don't mean to stray from this topic, but I have a question regarding

this post. , would you be able to explain to me (simplified version is

fine) about how the mycotoxins will still be around even if mold is removed? Or

if you could point me to a file... I tried googling this but can't find this

information.

This weekend I started to re-caulk my tub, found a whole wall of black mold

behind the tiles. Lived in a moldy house before, so I've been through that

health nightmare... want to get this remediated ASAP. Just want to make sure

it's done correctly.

I have a guy coming tomorrow who says he's a certified mold remediator... I'm

willing to rip out the entire bathroom and walls if I need to, is this enough to

eliminate the mycotoxins?

Thanks for any information you might be able to provide-

From: Meng <moldsick@...>

Subject: Re: [] Re: Questions for: Oils that eliminate

mold---Really?

Date: Monday, September 7, 2009, 1:39 PM

Carl,

Thank you for so eloquently adressing 's e-mail, I am by no means an

expert, although after numerous depositons with both our IH and Dr Yang and

our lengthy trial process, I do know that what stated about the

hyphae and mycotoxins is not true. It is very dangerous when people make

claims to have a cure so you don't need to leave your house. As you stated,

it is neccessary to literally bring the house down to it's studs in some

cases such as ours. Cleaning the airborne and surface mold will NOT cure the

home of the deadly mycotoxins.

September 7, 2009

Carl,

I would like to thank you for your questions and giving me the

opportunity to clarify.

1. The claims of others include their background information

and credentials, also. So what is different about Dr Close?

Because you said he is not a mycologist would you or he defer to

a mycologist if there were a difference of opinion? BTW, a

mycologist studies more than just mycotoxins. They study the

biology of fungi, conditions for growth, the structures of the

biomass, viable and non-viable, and emanations from the

biomass.

JC: We would definitely defer to an independent third party mycologist

if there were substantive data that led to a difference of opinion. He

also has 40+ years of experience in the environmental industry including

air quality sampling, and remediation techniques. I will go into more

detail about this the following answers and summary.

2. I'm glad you require fixing the moisture. But I don't

understand the next statement. It says (paraphrasing), the

protocol is effective at removing inside mold species that don't

exist outside. Then you say sampling verifies the removal of

these inside mold spores to below outside levels. But they don't

exist outside to begin with. Can you clarify?

Also, which sampling and analysis method is being used to

identify species? Futher on you cite the use of spore traps. But

spore traps cannot identify species. They cannot even distinguish

the genera of spores of Penicillium from Aspergillus. Unless a

sampling and analytical method is used which identifies species

the conclusions are invalid.

JC: I apologize for the confusion, to clarify if mold is found in the

inside air sample and not in the outside air sample take before

application of the protocol, then it only existed inside and in using

the protocol there was a 100% efficiency in removing these spores found

only inside. For species of mold found both inside and outside, spore

counts were below outside levels after applying the protocol.

I suppose this gets into Spore Removal Efficiency (SRE) so let me give

you the base equation: SRE = (((Cib –Cia)/Cib)x 100)

C = Concentration of mold spores per cubic meter of air

i = Inside

b = Before Treatment

a = After Treatment

If, however, the species is found in both the inside and the outdoor

samples, the number of available spores per cubic meter of air during

treatment is affected by the amount of exchange of air between the

indoor environment and the ambient air outside. The equation would be:

SRE = ((((Cib + Eavg) – Cia)/(Cib +Eavg) x100)

Where Eavg = the average exhcnage during the treatment in mold spores

per cubic meter.

This exchange can be either positive or negative for a given species.

It is also affected by the size, weight, and other physical features of

the spores of each mold species.

What the above statement means is that in an example case study:

Mold Species Cib Cob Cib/Cob Cia Coa

Cia/Coa SRE

Alternaria 7 47 0.15

0 20 0.00 100%

Ascospores 1200 227 5.29 7

7 1.00 99.5%

Basidiospore 6887 163 42.25 127

233 0.55 98.2%

Bipolaris / Drechslera 27 7 3.86 0

0 N/A 100%

Chaetomuim 80 13 6.15 0

13 0.00 100%

Cladosporium 1287 4303 0.30 7

173 0.04 99.8%

Penicillium/Aspergillus 500 320 1.56 53

1373 0.04 96.1%

Stachybotrys 120 0 GIO 0

0 0.00 100%

Scopulariopsis 13 0 GIO 0

0 0.00 100%

Polythrincium 7 0 GIO

0 0 0.00 100%

C= Concentration (Mold Spore per Cubic Meter)

i = inside

o= outside

a= after sampling

b= before sampling

GIO = Growing Inside Only

The case-study sampling included spore traps, bio-tapes, and viable

samples that were cultured in the lab. The data he has collected shows

the species identified in each case-study. From about 12 to 20 species

were identified in each case. In some cases, where the first application

of the protocol didn't reduce the Aspergillus/Penicillium spore

count, viable samples were collected and cultured to distinguish between

Penicillium and various Aspergillus species. The before and after

case-study data show that the spores of species which only exist in

inside air samples are completely absent in the after air samples. Thus

the conclusion that the protocol removes 100% of these spores from the

air. The spores of species found both inside and outside were greatly

reduced (97% on the average). Part of the confusion here may be the

broad use of the term " species " to distinguish between different

mold types we should actually be referring to the genera though the

species can be identified in some cases by spore trap sample.

3. This further confuses what the protocol does. Now you are

saying you are reducing inside levels to less than outside levels.

Which doesn't agree with the previous statement. Also, and more

importantly, you say these are molds " that are not found in the

air. " Which I interpret as molds on surfaces. But molds on

surfaces originate in the air. Help me out here.

JC: The protocol addresses mold growth (on surfaces) by killing the

mold, and spores already in the air by digesting them. The answer to #2

should clarify the rest of the confusion in this statement.

4.Now you are saying both airborne mold and surface mold

should be removed. But your protocol only applies to mold in the

air. I disagree with the only way to clean a house. The only way to

actually clean a house of mold is to include the interstitial voids

and other complex structures which are typically in a house. Also,

the systems of the house. Removing mold is more than surfaces

such as tables and floors which we routinely clean anyway.

JC: Your statement " But your protocol only applies to mold in the

air " is incorrect. Diffusing does more than remove spores from the

air, and the protocol involves much more than diffusing. The following

is the 10 step protocol from Dr. Close:

1. SAMPLING -- Contact a professional to have sampling done to

determine the type of mold, and whether it is toxic or

not. Toxic mold must be dealt with differently than non-toxic mold.

2.DIFFUSE -- After samples have been collected, then diffuse the

Thieves Blend for 24-72 hours, non-stop, in the space(s)

where mold was found. One (1) recommended cold-air diffuser works well

in spaces up to 1500 sq. ft. in size. If possible, and for best results,

leave the room closed and sealed during this intensive diffusing. This

will allow maximum penetration and absorption of the essential oil

blend.

3.REPAIR LEAKS -- Repair all leaks and eliminate all sources of

moisture.

4.CLEAN THOROUGHLY -- If sampling identifies NO toxic mold, then after

diffusing has been completed, clean visible mold and stains with the

Thieves Household Cleaner, undiluted. Use protective equipment and take

precautions to avoid contact with and breathing mold spores while

cleaning.

5.If sampling identifies TOXIC MOLD, then contact a professional mold

remediation service to have mold infested materials removed and properly

disposed.

6. RESAMPLE - Have your professional resample to be sure all sources of

mold have been identified and remediated.

7. REPEAT -- If necessary, repeat steps 1 through 6, above.

8. REMOVE -- Remove mold infested materials, seal in plastic and

properly dispose. If you do NOT have toxic mold, you may dispose sealed

materials in your garbage.

9. REPAIR, REPLACE, and REFINISH all affected areas.

10.DIFFUSE REGULARLY for prevention and protection.

5. Actually, the hyphae are part of the mold growth biomass

which produces mycotoxins. and they contain mycotoxins, along

with all the other components of mold growth such as proteins,

glucans, enzymes, proteinases, etc. Recent studies show hyphal

counts to be 10-100 times higher than for spores. And I know of

no method which removes hyphae without also removing spores.

I don't understand the statement that cleaning hyphae puts mold

spores into the air.

JC: I apologize I did misspeak on this. This was due to lack of

understanding by myself on where and how the mycotoxins are produced,

and thank you for helping me understand this. Our data shows that

disturbing the mold growth (Hyphae) by trying to " clean " it with

bleach or other fungicides before diffusing puts mold spores and debris

into the air.

6. Spore traps collect both non-viable and viable spores. A

more correct term would be " total spores. " I'm surprised they

found " none " because as you say at the beginning of your

narrative mold spores are everywhere all the time. Even clean

rooms rarely have " no mold spores. " Analysis of the spore traps

cannot distinguish between viable and non-viable.

JC: This relates to the question: " If diffusing removes mold spores

from the air (100% in the case of species found only inside) what

happens to the spores? Do they just fall out of the air? Dead or alive,

they can cause allergenic reactions. " The lab found no mold spores

in the after, swab- or bio-tape samples taken from the same surfaces

where spores were abundant in the before-diffusing samples, indicating

that the spores were dissolved or digested. And yes, this is remarkable.

7. Dead mold spores are still allergens. Even if some weren't

spore trap analysis can't tell the difference. How is this claim

supported?

JC: This was answered above.

8. I think it might be wise to consult with mycologists before

making any of the above claims, whether about mycotoxins or the

others properties of mold. Especially because of the statements

which follow.

JC: The point here is that we simply have done no tests for mycotoxins

before or after using the protocol. However Dr. Close has consulted with

mycologists to verify the accuracy of his statements before releasing

his protocol.

9.There is more complexity involved than I can fully explain