I doubt that anyone can give me a definate answer...

[Guest guest]

but I have to ask...

Let me start with a little history... After having to move into my parents house

cause I couldn't afford mine anymore, Dr. Shoemaker advised me to do an ERMI. It

came back as a level 2. Dr. Shoemaker wanted me to move out. But I couldn't find

anywhere to go. So I spoke with the lab, an air quality specialist and a

remediator. I discribed the house condition - built in the mid 40's, small two

story, stab with radiant heat, no central anything, and the carpets were almost

25 years old, and for the last eight years the cleaning hadn't been the best

since my mother could no longer handle it.. Well the concenus between all that I

spoke to was to do through inspection and air quality testing, which I did and

that all turned out well within normal ranges... So we decided the carpets

needed to be removed... I finally was able to beg myself into another location

while my family preformed the removal... Here comes my problem. I tried to

return home the other day and I reacted within a half hour of entering the

house... I feel so horrible physically as well as emotionally... My family had

done almost everything I asked them to do except for running fans continually to

exhaust the dust that was kicked up from the carpet removal... Here's my

question... Is there any rule of thumb as to how long a building should be

ventilated before a mold suseptible person should re-enter?

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated

Bonnie

[Guest guest]

At 10:24 AM 5/24/2009, you wrote:

>So we decided the carpets

>needed to be removed...

Good, but did you cover everything in the room, seal off the other

rooms when doing so?

The mold grows on the backing of the carpet, underneath, and rolling

the carpet exposes and stretches the backing, releasing a ton of spores.

The walls will have to be washed, ***rinsed, and dried*** with borax

or real TSP. The ceiling should be wiped as well. And the

floor. And all furniture.

Then you should be go back in with in 1 day.

25 year old carpet? Geesh, it needs to be replaced every 10 years.

Everyone will feel much better with it gone.

[Guest guest]

Bonnie,

You are right that there is no definitive answer, but there are

answers. We need to shift our thinking somewhat to better

understand what happened and what to do now.

1. " Well the concenus between all that I spoke to was to do

through inspection and air quality testing, which I did and that all

turned out well within normal ranges... "

RESPONSE: There are no " normal ranges " so I don't know how

they determined " normal. " Besides, if you react then I don't care

what the " ranges " or " levels " are, you are reacting to " something. "

Therefore, it is " normal " for you to react in this house. Also, based

on your description I would start with removing obvious sources,

like the carpet and settled " dust " , before spending money on

traditional inspections and testing which are not likely to show

anything. If removal of the obvious is sufficient then you are done.

If it helps but is not sufficient, then perhaps an inspection by

someone who understands reactivity to low levels of " normal "

substances would be of benefit.

2. " So we decided the carpets needed to be removed... "

RESPONSE: Good. This would be a first thought for me just

because they are so old. If the ERMI sample included any of the

carpeting anywhere in the house then that in itself would trigger

ERMI, even if everything else in the house were immaculate and

safe for you. ERMI doesn't account for a single " hot spot. "

3. " Here's my question... Is there any rule of thumb as to how

long a building should be ventilated before a mold suseptible

person should re-enter? "

RESPONSE A: If the mold source is still there no amount of

ventilation will solve the problem. It may reduce exposure enough

so a marginally reactive person would tolerate the house. Think

about a room full of cigarette smokers. You can blow a hurricane

through the building but there is still smoke from the cigarettes

moving toward the open window. Not much, but it is still there

until the cigarettes sources are removed. Ventilation works best

for odors and fragrances, not so well with the sources of settled

particles.

RESPONSE B: Ventilation is most useful for chemicals,

fragrances and odors because they are molecules in the air and

air is the same sized molecules. They move with the air and

generally don't settle on surfaces like dust does. Mold and dust

are particles, which are thousands of times larger and heavier

than molecules. What this means is the particles don't ventilate

out of the house with the air very well, even with fans running.

Particles will travel with air but tend to settle out of the air and

accumulate onto surfaces like dust on tables or " dust bunnies "

behind the table. Particles are best removed by dusting or

vacuuming (if the vacuum has a HEPA filter, see below). Even

molecules won't be reduced for long if the source is still in the

house, per the cigarette example above.

RESPONSE C: You rightly observed there was dust from the

carpet during its removal. There are ways to remove carpet

without creating that much dust, but it is too late now. What is

now needed is to remove the carpet dust from the house. Where

is it? The carpet dust, like cigarette smoke particles, will travel on

air currents and settle on all horizontal surfaces and will even be

deposited on verticle surfaces like walls. It will also be on the

ceilings. It will mostly be in the rooms where the carpet was and

too a lesser amount throughout the rest of the house. The

solution is to remove the paticles by vacuuming ALL surfaces.

That means all floors, ledges, window sills, furniture, walls and

ceilings, etc. Don't forget to vacuum the baseboard heater fins

and housing. Use only a vacuum that has a true HEPA filter (it

must say 99.9% at 0.3 microns, and not HEPA-like or HEPA-

style) or a shop vac with an exhaust hose through a window

blowing into the air outside of the house.

CONCLUSIONS: Now that the carpet is gone and if removing the

" dust " is sufficient, then you are done. If you still have reactions

then either there is accumulated dust still in the house, there are

chemical (molecular) sources you are reacting to, or there are

souces of mold other than the carpet that need to be identified

and appropriately removed. If mold, then there will be moisture

sources to identify and correct. Depending on how reactive you

are to extremely low levels, your body may need time to heal

before you can re-enter the house without complaint.

So the short and accurate, but not fully informed, answer is

ventilation alone for mold doesn't work. Identification and removal

techniques can be successful but must be carefully managed

according to general principles and specific situations.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

but I have to ask...

Let me start with a little history... After having to move into my parents

house

cause I couldn't afford mine anymore, Dr. Shoemaker advised me to do

an ERMI. It

came back as a level 2. Dr. Shoemaker wanted me to move out. But I

couldn't find

anywhere to go. So I spoke with the lab, an air quality specialist and a

remediator. I discribed the house condition - built in the mid 40's, small

two

story, stab with radiant heat, no central anything, and the carpets were

almost

25 years old, and for the last eight years the cleaning hadn't been the best

since my mother could no longer handle it.. Well the concenus between

all that I

spoke to was to do through inspection and air quality testing, which I did

and

that all turned out well within normal ranges... So we decided the carpets

needed to be removed... I finally was able to beg myself into another

location

while my family preformed the removal... Here comes my problem. I

tried to

return home the other day and I reacted within a half hour of entering

the

house... I feel so horrible physically as well as emotionally... My family

had

done almost everything I asked them to do except for running fans

continually to

exhaust the dust that was kicked up from the carpet removal... Here's my

question... Is there any rule of thumb as to how long a building should be

ventilated before a mold suseptible person should re-enter?

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated

Bonnie

----------

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[Guest guest]

Carl, can you explain the correct and best way to remove carpet without

creating a lot of dust?

My husband took the carpet off our steps ,a small piece at a time, and

placed it in a plastic bag. He did it slowly and took the bags outside after

every other one. Didn't have much dust and no reaction so I hope we did it

the right way.

Sue

RESPONSE C: You rightly observed there was dust from the

carpet during its removal. There are ways to remove carpet

without creating that much dust, but it is too late now. What is

now needed is to remove the carpet dust from the house.

**************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy

Steps!

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[Guest guest]

I had a problem getting carpet removed without flinging dust everywhere. I tell

people that work for me, take your time, do it " this way " , I have allergies,

etc, but as soon as I'm not watching, they are disregarding instructions.

People I hired were being careful when I told them but when I peeked in on them

later, were just ripping carpet up...so, as frequently is the case, I did it

myself, cutting squares of carpet and putting them out to the trash weekly.

After they were here tearing up carpet, I had a very bad migraine headache.

Anyway, the only thing I can think of that might improve if you wanted to take

the trouble and extra expense, would be to cover carpet with tacky plastic so

when you pulled it up dust was contained by plastic stuck to it....but then I'm

not Carl, so I hope he answers also!!

>

>

> Carl, can you explain the correct and best way to remove carpet without

> creating a lot of dust?

>

[Guest guest]

Sue,

Your husband did good. Anything that doesn't stir up the dust.

You can dampen it with water so the dust is heavy and doesn't

become airborne. You can cover it with contractors plastic (thin

and sticky on one side). Cut into pieces you can put into plastic

bags or roll into bags. It's not technical, just careful. The pad is

often more " dusty " than the carpet because it deteriorates and

the dirt is impacted into it and below it. So carefully clean the floor

without stirring up the dust from it.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

Carl, can you explain the correct and best way to remove carpet without

creating a lot of dust?

My husband took the carpet off our steps ,a small piece at a time, and

placed it in a plastic bag. He did it slowly and took the bags outside after

every other one. Didn't have much dust and no reaction so I hope we did

it

the right way.

Sue

RESPONSE C: You rightly observed there was dust from the

carpet during its removal. There are ways to remove carpet

without creating that much dust, but it is too late now. What is

now needed is to remove the carpet dust from the house.

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Carl, for all the info. The water suggestion is something I didn't

think about. Probably because I always think of water as my worst

nightmare. I go to my basement every AM just to check the water heater!! We

even had

our plumber put it in the dish with the hose connected to the sump pump

but I still worry all the time. Even though we never had problems at our

house (got sick from my school) I still have some terrible nightmares but they

are not as frequent now.

Thanks, again, for your help.

Sue

Sue,

Your husband did good. Anything that doesn't stir up the dust.

You can dampen it with water so the dust is heavy and doesn't

become airborne. You can cover it with contractors plastic (thin

and sticky on one side). Cut into pieces you can put into plastic

bags or roll into bags. It's not technical, just careful. The pad is

often more " dusty " than the carpet because it deteriorates and

the dirt is impacted into it and below it. So carefully clean the floor

without stirring up the dust from it.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

**************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy

Steps!

(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221823249x1201398664/aol?redir=http://\

www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072 & hmpgID=62 & bcd=May

ExcfooterNO62)

[Guest guest]

Thank you, the tacky plastic is a great idea!!

I had a problem getting carpet removed without flinging dust everywhere. I

tell people that work for me, take your time, do it " this way " , I have

allergies, etc, but as soon as I'm not watching, they are disregarding

instructions. People I hired were being careful when I told them but when I

peeked

in on them later, were just ripping carpet up...so, as frequently is the

case, I did it myself, cutting squares of carpet and putting them out to the

trash weekly. After they were here tearing up carpet, I had a very bad

migraine headache. Anyway, the only thing I can think of that might improve if

you wanted to take the trouble and extra expense, would be to cover carpet

with tacky plastic so when you pulled it up dust was contained by plastic

stuck to it....but then I'm not Carl, so I hope he answers also!!

**************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy

Steps!

(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221823249x1201398664/aol?redir=http://\

www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072 & hmpgID=62 & bcd=May

ExcfooterNO62)

[Guest guest]

When I was living in a rental my first year of recovery, any vacumming at all

would put me to bed for a week, I have found that it takes at least 3 days for

the dust to settle from a normal cleaning, and the same goes for the car-even

driving with the windows open makes me sick if the car has been vacummed, and I

mean with a good hepa filter. I think the ability for you to reenter the

building would depend on how well you are, but I would give it 3 days to a

week-with lots of ventilation

-

>

>

> Then you should be go back in with in 1 day.

>

> 25 year old carpet? Geesh, it needs to be replaced every 10 years.

> Everyone will feel much better with it gone.

>

[Guest guest]

, what is real TSP?

Thanks,

Sam

--- On Sun, 5/24/09, <pete-@...> wrot

The walls will have to be washed, ***rinsed, and dried*** with borax

or real TSP. The ceiling should be wiped as well. And the

floor. And all furniture.

[Guest guest]

Yes, the padding was much more difficult for me to remove. Dustier and also it

was horse hair matting and I could not cut it, so instead of cutting squares

like I did with carpet, I had to look for a seam and take the tacks out and roll

it up, seam to seam, and at that point was very large, so I had to roll up this

huge thing and drag it outside, like an ant dragging a cheese sandwich. I was

sooo tired and it got dusty. Plastic would not have stuck to this horse hair

padding. I just wore a mask and had to do it. I guess at that point, you just

try to get fans to direct dust in a direction that is best for you.

As hard as it was, like , it was at a point where I didn't want to vacuum

carpet, because it left an odor in air. I used to think it was the vaccum but

then realized it was the carpet fibers, looked like new, but had an odor that I

couldn't detect unless it got stirred up by vaccum. Not vaccuuming wouldn't

have been healthy, so out it finally went.

The pad is

> often more " dusty " than the carpet because it deteriorates and

> the dirt is impacted into it and below it. So carefully clean the floor

> without stirring up the dust from it.

>

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

[Guest guest]

At 09:13 AM 5/25/2009, you wrote:

>, what is real TSP?

Trisodium phosphate. It's a degreaser. And most laundry detergents

had it until it was found to cause algae blooms that kill off

fish. Detergent makers can not use it, but you can. Hardware stores

sell it to painters as it's the best wall cleaner before painting.

It must be rinsed off, a wet towel is fine, and then dried, so to

protect the wall.

[Guest guest]

>

Trisodium phosphate. D

>

, what is real TSP?

> Thanks,

> Sam

>

> --- On Sun, 5/24/09, <pete-@...> wrot

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> The walls will have to be washed, ***rinsed, and dried*** with borax

>

> or real TSP. The ceiling should be wiped as well. And the

>

> floor. And all furniture.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I removed a 40 year old carpet last year. It was a 100% wool and in perfect

condition and clean looking but when I vacuumed it, there was an odor. I

thought odor was from the old vacuum cleaner motor but one day I kneeled down

and stuck my nose in the very clean looking carpet and p-u, and out it went. I

was also sick after removal of carpet. I told people pulling it up to use a box

cutter and take pieces up carefully, not to fling dust, and they did that, when

I told them, but when I came to check on progress, they were ripping it up, just

like I asked them not to. Other people just don't get what all the fuss is

about! I finally had to take up the carpet myself, one small piece at a time,

and put it out for garbage pickup until it was all gone, since I was the only

one who I took the need for a dustfree removal seriously.

>

25 year old carpet? Geesh, it needs to be replaced every 10 years.

> Everyone will feel much better with it gone.

>

[Guest guest]

For future carpet removal, use contractor's plastic. Home Depot & others sell it

in the carpeting or flooring dept. It's about 2-3 ft wide, kinda sticky on one

side. Lay it down on the carpet your removing - it keeps the dust & particles

from getting air borne. Contractors use it for covering the floors in models. It

used to run about $10 bucks a roll - can't remember how many linear ft per roll.

>

> I removed a 40 year old carpet last year. It was a 100% wool and in perfect

condition and clean looking but when I vacuumed it, there was an odor. I

thought odor was from the old vacuum cleaner motor but one day I kneeled down

and stuck my nose in the very clean looking carpet and p-u, and out it went. I

was also sick after removal of