Guest guest Posted August 7, 2008 Report Share Posted August 7, 2008 Daneka Wheeler wrote: > Apparently, this issue has been around a while, but I only discovered > it. I heard about it on the radio, then did a google search and was > surprised to discover that many people are looking into yawning as a key > to understanding autism. The question is whether yawning is contagious > for those on the spectrum, as it is for neuro-typicals. The supposition > is that because autists lack empathy, yawning does not have the same > impact, and is not contagious. The studies are out there to support > this position. > > When I heard the radio segment, I thought, Bill would be pleased to > learn there is now an objective test. Then, I did a google search, and > thought - Bill will have a field day with this one. Not worth the effort. Unfortunately, they made a few assumptions which have support only in " the conventional wisdom " . One: " ...other conditions in which empathy is compromised... " , which implies that empathy indeed IS compromised (i.e. absent) in autism. However, the " tests " for empathy rely on NT-ish characteristics the display of which at worst are *delayed* in autistics. Inter alia, the savant Kim Peak (putative " Rain Man " model) displays empathy. Then too, the authors themselves point out that *gaze avoidance* could explain their findings. So their conclusion is flawed right out of the gate. Further, I could argue their study shows TDs ( " typically developing " subjects) are surprisingly sheep-like. They join the crowd and yawn without any good personal reason. Pathology? I could argue that AS are less likely mindlessly to follow the crowd. Maybe a *valuable* trait, nicht wahr?? NON-pathology. > > Here's one site on the subject: > bps-research-digest.blogspot.com/2007/09/children-with-autism-are-immune-to.html > > Anyone heard of this? Yes. It's another one of those " intriguing " things glommed onto by people looking for research funding. *Any* funding, any project to advance their careers ( " ...the first to report... " ), and help defray institutional overhead. " The Literature " in *all* fields is overflowing with this sort of thing. - Bill, 76, AS; ...skeptic, yawning -- WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2008 Report Share Posted August 7, 2008 --- Daneeka said: Apparently, this issue has been around a while, but I only discovered it. I heard about it on the radio, then did a google search and was surprised to discover that many people are looking into yawning as a key to understanding autism. The question is whether yawning is contagious for those on the spectrum, as it is for neuro-typicals. The supposition is that because autists lack empathy, yawning does not have the same impact, and is not contagious. The studies are out there to support this position.When I heard the radio segment, I thought, Bill would be pleased to learn there is now an objective test. Then, I did a google search, and thought - Bill will have a field day with this one.Here's one site on the subject:bps-research- digest.blogspot. com/2007/ 09/children- with-autism- are-immune- to.htmlAnyone heard of this?Danekame here: yes i heard of this yesterday it was on the uk news ( it was a slow news day) a study has been done on dogs to observe them and apparently dogs will yawn when their owners yawn. It was then posited that because dogs do this, that dogs must show empathy. presumably the dogs which avoid eye contact and have communication difficulties but still yawn arent AS dogs. is it true? im an unsure. i was always under the impression that a yawn was an attempt by the body to increase air into the lungs and increase carbon dioxide blown off when CO2 levels in the blood were getting too high. ( the body doesnt respond to low oxygen but to high CO2). a yawn usually occurs when people are sleepy and tired and taking shallow breaths, allowing CO2 to build up slightly. so why would a dog do it? i am unsure. it may be as researchers have discovered an attempt at doggy empathy. 36 m diagnosed AS Not happy with your email address? Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Yahoo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2008 Report Share Posted August 7, 2008 WD Loughman wrote: > Daneka Wheeler wrote: >> Apparently, this issue has been around a while, but I only discovered >> it. I heard about it on the radio, then did a google search and was >> surprised to discover that many people are looking into yawning as a key >> to understanding autism. The question is whether yawning is contagious >> for those on the spectrum, as it is for neuro-typicals. The supposition >> is that because autists lack empathy, yawning does not have the same >> impact, and is not contagious. The studies are out there to support >> this position. >> >> When I heard the radio segment, I thought, Bill would be pleased to >> learn there is now an objective test. Then, I did a google search, and >> thought - Bill will have a field day with this one. > > Not worth the effort. > Unfortunately, they made a few assumptions which have support only in > " the conventional wisdom " . One: " ...other conditions in which empathy > is compromised... " , which implies that empathy indeed IS compromised > (i.e. absent) in autism. Strikes me as bullshit, behaviour can be contagious amongst _animals_ and humans are animals. Going to have empathetic cows? Yawning seems to be a genetically ancient response to local environmental conditions and if those are present in a group there can be a group response, one starts the others start. Laughter is a similar thing. I can start some of by pet birds behaving in a particular way by mimicing something they do. So what is going on? This has nothing to do with empathy, yawning, research but it sure has with same kind of people huddling together. The whole thing is group social behaviour, more a sociology matter. The radio show, it's listeners, those outside feeding out pap " research " for the huddle. Much the same thing are most meetings, political debate and so on, where nothing useful happens or comes out of it which needed the huddle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2008 Report Share Posted August 7, 2008 Hi all I thought that yawning was an instinctive response - you see someone else yawning - and it makes you want to yawn too; you are alerted to the fact that there isnt a lot of air about and if someone else is trying to get themselves more air, you should do it too. I have just yawned while reading this so it might be more inrooted than we know! Does thinking about yawning or reading about it make you want to do it? I'm going to ask Ian about this - he has yawned when I do, as we comment on it, how it is catching. However, he does not yawn as much as I do, which is anytime during the day or at will! My late dog used to yawn , and so do my cats, when they are about to sleep or when they have just woken up. In fact my cats mirror each other's movements all the time, its spooky. Licking in syncronisation, and lying side by side in the same position. So in that case, perhaps we humans mirror each other too, as a safety response - you yawn, I yawn. But the issue here is, is that a copying response in empathy, or because of a lack of air or tiredness in the same circumstances as the other yawnee? Fascinating stuff. Judy B, trying not to yawn. david bailey wrote: --- Daneeka said: Apparently, this issue has been around a while, but I only discovered it. I heard about it on the radio, then did a google search and was surprised to discover that many people are looking into yawning as a key to understanding autism. The question is whether yawning is contagious for those on the spectrum, as it is for neuro-typicals. The supposition is that because autists lack empathy, yawning does not have the same impact, and is not contagious. The studies are out there to support this position.When I heard the radio segment, I thought, Bill would be pleased to learn there is now an objective test. Then, I did a google search, and thought - Bill will have a field day with this one.Here's one site on the subject:bps-research- digest.blogspot. com/2007/ 09/children- with-autism- are-immune- to.htmlAnyone heard of this?Danekame here: yes i heard of this yesterday it was on the uk news ( it was a slow news day) a study has been done on dogs to observe them and apparently dogs will yawn when their owners yawn. It was then posited that because dogs do this, that dogs must show empathy. presumably the dogs which avoid eye contact and have communication difficulties but still yawn arent AS dogs. is it true? im an unsure. i was always under the impression that a yawn was an attempt by the body to increase air into the lungs and increase carbon dioxide blown off when CO2 levels in the blood were getting too high. ( the body doesnt respond to low oxygen but to high CO2). a yawn usually occurs when people are sleepy and tired and taking shallow breaths, allowing CO2 to build up slightly. so why would a dog do it? i am unsure. it may be as researchers have discovered an attempt at doggy empathy. 36 m diagnosed AS Not happy with your email address? Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Yahoo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2008 Report Share Posted August 7, 2008 --- judy said: .. So in that case, perhaps we humans mirror each other too, as a safety response - you yawn, I yawn. But the issue here is, is that a copying response in empathy, or because of a lack of air or tiredness in the same circumstances as the other yawnee? Fascinating stuff. Judy B, trying not to yawn. me here: i thought about this today.....here is my take: dogs have evolved from wolves as companions for humans. so any dog which displayed aggressive behaviour was either killed, culled or not bred from, however i am sure a lot of them joined the police force of northern ireland. dogs have evolved and have been bred as companions for huumans. they demonstrate and are selected for traits such as friendshipd, companionship, loyalty and obedience what humans really like about dogs is their submissive behaviour, they will come when called, sleep ooutside, eat dog food and be eager to please , it is thsi master/ submissive sentient being interaction that works..the human likes to be in controk of a relationship and the dog seeks safety shelter and food by demonstrating characteristics that will endear him to the owner. so dogs that are submissive will lie down on their backs and expose their underbelly, really nervous dogs will invite you to pat them by urinating on themselves while exposing hteir underbelly. to pat a dog on top of its head is a domineering gesture which dogs seek ( a pat under the mouth is less dominant)...so dogs are trained, programmed and bred to be submissive,, please their owners to ensure their own survival. this may include behaviours such as mimicking owners behaviour like yawning, stretching, laying down, walking, running...anything to re-enforce the human animal bond, dogs are very good at this, are they empathetic? i dont know....but i think the research demonstates dog behaviour to please their owners and not necessarily empathy. it would have been better if in their sample population you yawned in front of a police dog or other working "bad" dog who isnt submissive and wont try and please you...and see if these dogs yawn. i doubt it, i think submissive dogs yawn to please their owners and not to demoinstrate empathy. the fcat that it has been researched and a correlation has been inferred demonstrates a willingness and enthusiasm about current research into As, autism and understanding empathy. the conclusions may or may not be correct but the research is exploding. AS seems to be the new AIDS everyone wants an answer, an explanation and still they want to cure us. 36 m diagnosed AS Recent Activity 2 New PhotosVisit Your Group Meditation and Lovingkindness A Yahoo! Group to share and learn. Yahoo! Health Asthma Triggers How you can identify them. Moderator Central Get answers to your questions about running Y! Groups. .. Not happy with your email address? Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Yahoo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2008 Report Share Posted August 7, 2008 Here is a link to the original study looking at autistic children. It's from Japan and appeared in Biology Letters. The author is Atsushi Senju, in case anyone has trouble opening this link. It's very brief, three pages, and for those, like me, with a science background, it's very readable./www.igso.net/~gbryant/yawning.pdfBill is correct in that they do presume that impaired empathy is a trait of autism, citing Baron-Cohen. The question is whether lack of contagious yawning is the result of impaired empathy or, as others claim, an "innate releasing mechanism," by which I presume they mean reflex, as Judy suggests. The reasoning is a bit circular, but the authors conclude that this study supports the empathy theory.The author also suggests that the results could be due to the tendency of autistics to focus on the mouth when conversing instead of the eyes, and that somehow the eyes are what trigger contagious yawning. Very interesting, I think.Daneka--- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2008 Report Share Posted August 7, 2008 I still don't quite get this whole thing about empathy... I have yet to have any NT folk empathize with me as an AS person so....?? The dictionary defines empathy as either intellectual OR imaginative understanding of another person or even an art object. Either of those is experienced based. In a world of all NT you all can empathize because you pretty much all experience the same stuff. AS folk however aren't necessarily experiencing the same things but also we don't have the same reactions to the same things. How can you empathize with someone who's experiences and/or reactions to experiences are totally different? Actually all people who have experienced something out of the norm tend to feel isolated and alone. People are sympathetic but they don't really understand. So folk that have lived through things like being a POW or other somewhat unusual experiences are changed for life, not just by the experience its self but by the fact that no one really understands. That is why they have support groups for various experiences. Victims of this, that, or the other thing get together because they are the only ones who really understand how they feel. Other NT folk don't. In the same way NT folk don't understand how I as an AS person feel. Where as I talk quite often with other AS folk and we know exactly how each other felt about any given thing. So I'm not sure that group yawning has anything to do with empathy at all. As a couple others have brought up animals have group reactions all the time. Some of them stem from survival, some of them from I don't know what. Examples: I could get my mom's entire flock of chickens to start clucking just by walking in the barn and clucking myself a few times. This is also evident when one chicken lays and egg and does her cluck annoucement soon all the chickens are clucking for a time... why? Other examples: taken any herd animal. If one runs they will all run. This is good because if a predator is detected by one animal they all run. Sometimes of course you have groups of animals taking off because of nothing at all but it's group behavior which saves their lives. I grew up raising sheep on a farm. Sheep are very much this way. If one heads back to the barn, whether walking or running, they all go back to the barn. The only exception was one older ewe who would merely look at them and go back to eating her grass. Does that mean she was an AS sheep? LOL Also, having worked with horses a lot. If you are afraid your horse will sense that and be afraid/jumpy/ or take advantage of you depending on personality. Now an older and/or wiser and/or naturally calm horse will continue to be calm and dependable in spite of fear in the handler and can actually calm the person. (Those kind of horses are used in animal therapy programs.) Does this mean horses are NT and empathetic since they interact with humans this way? Anyway, just some things I thought of. Interesting topic, Jennie AS Re: yawning and autism Here is a link to the original study looking at autistic children. It's from Japan and appeared in Biology Letters. The author is Atsushi Senju, in case anyone has trouble opening this link. It's very brief, three pages, and for those, like me, with a science background, it's very readable./www.igso.net/~gbryant/yawning.pdfBill is correct in that they do presume that impaired empathy is a trait of autism, citing Baron-Cohen. The question is whether lack of contagious yawning is the result of impaired empathy or, as others claim, an "innate releasing mechanism," by which I presume they mean reflex, as Judy suggests. The reasoning is a bit circular, but the authors conclude that this study supports the empathy theory.The author also suggests that the results could be due to the tendency of autistics to focus on the mouth when conversing instead of the eyes, and that somehow the eyes are what trigger contagious yawning. Very interesting, I think.Daneka--- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.12/1597 - Release Date: 8/7/2008 5:54 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2008 Report Share Posted August 8, 2008 Jennie, Thanks for posting: I have often felt just this way! Of course, many other AS could empathize with me. It surprised me when I fihnally met some NTs who could actually empathize with me, too! there aren't many, but I have run into a few. At the woman's Bible Study at my church (I attend one of them- there are actually two!), two of my friends who are non- spectrum encouraged me to share with all who attend (there were six last Spring, including myself), that I am AS. Tiill that time, I had only told them. I finally got tup the nerve, and they said to the others- [can you imagine living your whole life and not being able to read facial emotion at all- how that would feel?!} The other women followed their lead, and five women actually t ried hard to take my perspective! (Well, three new ones to the knowledge.) I think it was a little easier for them, because there are other women in the study who are not NT (though all are NS). One was diagnosed with fibromyalgia. One who is pretty typical is a cancer survivor: her attitude is that we all have strengths and weaknesses, and many of us have gone through things, and should be there for each other, and know we are not alone. Another used to work for Voc Rehab, and has had people on the spectrum - disabled adults- stay in her home, before being in a car wreck. She is now disabled herself, to a point, but is recovering. She talks very quietly, and can tire quickly. One is a lady who definitely reads people well, but has isolated events back to under a year old that she remembers! It was great to share with her that I have long0term memory like that, too- only mine are not isolated events, but many, many events. The sixth member is very quiet. She used to be bit distant from me till I explained, but she has not acted distant since! I think that now that she knows, she realizes that I have never meant to appear stand-offish to her, or negative in any other way. As for telling the whole church, I am not quite that brave yet. It is a small town, and I do teach here. I have no idea how great the discrimination would or would not be- and I am not quite ready for that- maybe soon (??). Most of the NTs I know, I would not think of telling. One person whom I have known for three years, and respect in a lot of ways, has made so many negative remarks about others on the autism spectrum that I am afraid she would be incredibly shocked if she ever found out. It might be easier if she did not find out from me. I am learning to empathize with NTs to a point- because finally, I am learning enouth about them to read them a little, and finally, I am able to make enough of an analogy to realize what experiences we do have in common. I feel great when I can share a feeling with anyone, because for me, it is a victory. Getting the information in the first place is the hard part. once I have that, I can often empathize. AS Subject: Re: yawning and autismTo: aspires-relationships Date: Thursday, August 7, 2008, 5:48 PM I still don't quite get this whole thing about empathy... I have yet to have any NT folk empathize with me as an AS person so....?? The dictionary defines empathy as either intellectual OR imaginative understanding of another person or even an art object. Either of those is experienced based. In a world of all NT you all can empathize because you pretty much all experience the same stuff. AS folk however aren't necessarily experiencing the same things but also we don't have the same reactions to the same things. How can you empathize with someone who's experiences and/or reactions to experiences are totally different? Actually all people who have experienced something out of the norm tend to feel isolated and alone. People are sympathetic but they don't really understand. So folk that have lived through things like being a POW or other somewhat unusual experiences are changed for life, not just by the experience its self but by the fact that no one really understands. That is why they have support groups for various experiences. Victims of this, that, or the other thing get together because they are the only ones who really understand how they feel. Other NT folk don't. In the same way NT folk don't understand how I as an AS person feel. Where as I talk quite often with other AS folk and we know exactly how each other felt about any given thing. So I'm not sure that group yawning has anything to do with empathy at all. As a couple others have brought up animals have group reactions all the time. Some of them stem from survival, some of them from I don't know what. Examples: I could get my mom's entire flock of chickens to start clucking just by walking in the barn and clucking myself a few times. This is also evident when one chicken lays and egg and does her cluck annoucement soon all the chickens are clucking for a time... why? Other examples: taken any herd animal. If one runs they will all run. This is good because if a predator is detected by one animal they all run. Sometimes of course you have groups of animals taking off because of nothing at all but it's group behavior which saves their lives. I grew up raising sheep on a farm. Sheep are very much this way. If one heads back to the barn, whether walking or running, they all go back to the barn. The only exception was one older ewe who would merely look at them and go back to eating her grass. Does that mean she was an AS sheep? LOL Also, having worked with horses a lot. If you are afraid your horse will sense that and be afraid/jumpy/ or take advantage of you depending on personality. Now an older and/or wiser and/or naturally calm horse will continue to be calm and dependable in spite of fear in the handler and can actually calm the person. (Those kind of horses are used in animal therapy programs.) Does this mean horses are NT and empathetic since they interact with humans this way? Anyway, just some things I thought of. Interesting topic, Jennie AS Re: [aspires-relationsh ips] yawning and autism Here is a link to the original study looking at autistic children. It's from Japan and appeared in Biology Letters. The author is Atsushi Senju, in case anyone has trouble opening this link. It's very brief, three pages, and for those, like me, with a science background, it's very readable./www.igso.net/ ~gbryant/ yawning.pdfBill is correct in that they do presume that impaired empathy is a trait of autism, citing Baron-Cohen. The question is whether lack of contagious yawning is the result of impaired empathy or, as others claim, an "innate releasing mechanism," by which I presume they mean reflex, as Judy suggests. The reasoning is a bit circular, but the authors conclude that this study supports the empathy theory.The author also suggests that the results could be due to the tendency of autistics to focus on the mouth when conversing instead of the eyes, and that somehow the eyes are what trigger contagious yawning. Very interesting, I think.Daneka--- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.12/1597 - Release Date: 8/7/2008 5:54 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2008 Report Share Posted August 8, 2008 Hi Jennie,A couple of thoughts come to mind when I read your post:(1) I think we - as a community - need a definition of "empathy" other than what the dictionary provides. Somehow, the idea is out there that people on the spectrum cannot feel the pain of others. Speaking personally (on my own husband's behalf), that's not true. Also, those of us on this list know that, in fact, that's not true. Just think of the AS members here.(2) The literature doesn't say that autistics cannot empathize, but that the ability to empathize is impaired, which I read to mean - "not so good." How exactly empathy is impaired is not clear. Again, only speaking personally, I'd say that's true. My husband is very kind. At his core, he is kind and considerate. Yet, he does offend with some regularity and is always surprised when I am not surprised at all. He lacks some predictive mechanism -- but - not in all situations. (3) I think there is a difference between "empathy" and "intolerance." Some of the examples you gave made me think more of intolerance.\I've got to run. Thanks for this discussion.Daneka_,_._,___ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2008 Report Share Posted August 8, 2008 Hi Jennie, I think the key for me is that imaginative understanding, while somewhat experienced based, does not really have to be. I can extrapolate from one situation to another based upon similarities and, with a heavy dose of imagination, empathize with someone whose experience I have never really shared. Or I can intellectually compare it to something similar and imagine how it must feel. I consider myself neurotypical but with strong AS empathies : ). So I think I do empathize with my AS husband at times. For example when he came upstairs this morning to find that my daughter had gotten up in the middle of the night because she was hot in the bedroom and had come out into the livingroom and pulled out the futon to sleep there because it was closer to the A/C unit and cooler, his first reaction was a kind of anxiety/panic. He is a disorganized person who craves organization, and his usual solution to visual chaos is to throw offending things away or shove them deep into closets, drawers, etc. He relies on me to keep things neat. So it was a challenge raising a normal notsoneat child. And last night of course she had to move the coffee table out of the way, all the pillows of the leather couch were stacked up, etc. So he comes up and his first reaction is stress and, Oh, God, How Long is That Going to Be That Way? Now if I didn't develop empathy over 17 years I would have shot off a response or might have belittled how such a thing would even bother someone, for god's sake he's the parent of a teenager who was hot, big deal, why do people have futons if not to use them, etc. (I could think of lots of evil sarcasm <g>). Instead I just said, "She was hot last night, I'll put everything back together later today." Because I reached into my brain and said, he's not being mean or petty or stupid and he's not knowingly overreacting, he's just wired to react to things out of the usual. I try to empathize with that, even though I don't really "understand" it, I do. I try to think of something that upsets me, makes me feel claustrophobic, makes me anxious or otherwise, and how it might be if I didn't have a "restraint" mechanism in place (that my husband lacks) that makes me respond automatically to something like that rather than thinking it through. I have no comment on your other comments, you could be entirely right, I just thought I would offer perspective on how an NT person (or an AS person) might empathize with another even if their experiences are very different. Re: yawning and autism Here is a link to the original study looking at autistic children. It's from Japan and appeared in Biology Letters. The author is Atsushi Senju, in case anyone has trouble opening this link. It's very brief, three pages, and for those, like me, with a science background, it's very readable./www.igso.net/~gbryant/yawning.pdfBill is correct in that they do presume that impaired empathy is a trait of autism, citing Baron-Cohen. The question is whether lack of contagious yawning is the result of impaired empathy or, as others claim, an "innate releasing mechanism," by which I presume they mean reflex, as Judy suggests. The reasoning is a bit circular, but the authors conclude that this study supports the empathy theory.The author also suggests that the results could be due to the tendency of autistics to focus on the mouth when conversing instead of the eyes, and that somehow the eyes are what trigger contagious yawning. Very interesting, I think.Daneka--- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.12/1597 - Release Date: 8/7/2008 5:54 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2008 Report Share Posted August 8, 2008 Daneka said: >>Hi Jennie,A couple of thoughts come to mind when I read your post:(1) I think we - as a community - need a definition of "empathy" other than what the dictionary provides. Somehow, the idea is out there that people on the spectrum cannot feel the pain of others. Speaking personally (on my own husband's behalf), that's not true. Also, those of us on this list know that, in fact, that's not true. Just think of the AS members here.<< I am AS. LOL Anyway, can we do that? Just change the dictionary definition? Definite AS moment here... I'm thinking dictionary definitions are RULES you can't change them they just ARE. Though logically I know that word definitions have changed over time. I am still muddled about the differences between empathy and sympathy and why people would think AS folk don't or can't have them etc. I think I've had several people attempt to help me out with this but each time it gets brought up I don't seem to have retained anything new about it. Just taking the concept of understanding others feelings and feeling the same as others; I as an AS person have no problems with this as far as I know. What I have trouble with, is expression of feelings, either on my face or in my words when talking. I can write what I think/feel easily, but not talk. So there are people in my life who believe I am not empathetic nor sympathetic when in reality I understand what they are going through and do all in my abilities to show them. Example: an older couple I know and have been friends with. the man got cancer. I understood her fears, his need to pretend it was all ok, etc and so forth. In an attempt to show this I made effort to find out what he needed. One thing was that he was exhausted and had to sit alot but liked to read so since I have an extensive library I went through and found a variety of books I thought he would be interested in and I knew they did not have on their own shelf. Once he was able to eat food again (he was on a feeding tube) I found out what kind of food he was able to eat and what tasted good to him as the radiation had messed with his taste buds. None of that meant anything to the woman half of the relationship but what did mean something to her was my husband's non verbal facial and body expression. Which is horrifically ironic because he admitted to me he couldn't care less about these people. I am labeled 'uncaring'. Nuts. I actually find that to be kind of scary that there are people out there who can overlook the good people do just because they don't look right to them in some way. >>(2) The literature doesn't say that autistics cannot empathize, but that the ability to empathize is impaired, which I read to mean - "not so good." How exactly empathy is impaired is not clear. Again, only speaking personally, I'd say that's true. My husband is very kind. At his core, he is kind and considerate. Yet, he does offend with some regularity and is always surprised when I am not surprised at all. He lacks some predictive mechanism -- but - not in all situations.<< Would you say he is more likely to offend in surface issues that are not as important or in more deep and/or hurtful ways? For myself I find I offend people fairly regularly about run of the mill daily things because those things are so unimportant to *me*, I assume they are unimportant to others. I am not the wife who gets upset about toilet paper rolls, dishwasher loading, or toothpaste tubes. If my husband does those things in a messy or some other way I don't like I either fix it or I just ignore it. But I totally could offend someone else on something like that because I don't care about it, therefore I don't think about it. But things that I know are hurtful to others I make sure to be careful how I speak and act. Though with speaking it tends to be not knowing what or how to say what needs said so I say nothing but that probably offends too so... >>3) I think there is a difference between "empathy" and "intolerance." Some of the examples you gave made me think more of intolerance.\<< Lost me there... Jennie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2008 Report Share Posted August 8, 2008 Daneeka and jennie said: Daneka said: >>Hi Jennie,A couple of thoughts come to mind when I read your post:(1) I think we - as a community - need a definition of "empathy" other than what the dictionary provides. Somehow, the idea is out there that people on the spectrum cannot feel the pain of others. Speaking personally (on my own husband's behalf), that's not true. Also, those of us on this list know that, in fact, that's not true. Just think of the AS members here.<< I am AS. LOL Anyway, can we do that? Just change the dictionary definition? Definite AS moment here... I'm thinking dictionary definitions are RULES you can't change them they just ARE. Though logically I know that word definitions have changed over time. I am still muddled about the differences between empathy and sympathy me here: i hate that too...you get told the same thing again and again and it doesnt stick. try this: when you sypmathise with someone you have experienced whatever they have, either, directly, previously or recently so you actually know what they are feeling. When you empathise with others you havent actually experienced what it is they have felt or experienced but you can put youtself in their position and "understand " how they feel with sympath it is " that HAS HAPPENED to me and i did feel......" i think this is where the confusion may be. people with AS can be sympathetic to a situation or person or event if they have experienced it before. They have had previous experience of this event. People with AS may not be able to empathise as even thou the event has happened, it didnt happen to them. they may be able to express sympathy , or even pseudo sympathy " shit if that happened to me I would feel bad" but i dont think they can feel empathy very well, even if they describe that they can. 36 m diagnosed AS Recent Activity 2 New PhotosVisit Your Group Meditation and Lovingkindness A Yahoo! Group to share and learn. Yahoo! Health Heartburn or Worse What symptoms are most serious? Yahoo! Groups Stay healthy and discover other people who can help. .. Not happy with your email address? Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Yahoo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2008 Report Share Posted August 9, 2008 , What do you call this? After working with the software called "Mindreading" for a few months, I finally realized that there were times when the thoughts of others were intruding on my own- not thoughts but feelings- and that this was happening to me faster than I could cognitively deal with it. I found this out when I discovered that I was making decisions based partly on these emotions of other people, and not completely on my own logical reasoning. I am 52 years old. I first really noticed this last April, though it may have been present for longer. Even a year ago, I never worried much about pushy sales people, for example, because if what they offered was not a good deal, feelings never came into it for me. Now, they do, and I have to be much more careful. I still process information the same way, I believe, only now I am getting more information than I got before. It feels really interesting. I like it very much. For the first time in my life, I have to care whether the company I keep will be a bad influence on me. And, for the first time in my life, there are times when I know, at a level that is not based on thought, what people around me are feeling, even though I may have no idea why they are feeling these things. Some emotions and feelings, I am still learning: I have learned maybe a third of the emotions on the CD I am studying- not too sure- so this will only get more pronounced the longer I train. As a teacher, I have studied learning styles for years, and after learning about AS, and learning more of what NTs can do, I am trying to put myself into their shoes by analogy. If something is hard for them, I reason by remembering another thing that is kind of analogous and hard for me- even if it is not the same thing- and then, imagine that I were facing the person's difficulty, with his or her abilities and information. Still, I improve every week, it seems. There are still many things I miss that a typical person would not. nevertheless, according to what you and Ron and and others have posted, I currently have empathy, and plenty of it. I also have plenty of lack of experience- I have never been NT. It is a wonder to me that these new feelings of others which are turning up in my head now, are a given fact of life for the NTs around me, and for them, multiplied many times what is happening to me. I have lived my life comparatively alone, and not realized it. I welcome any advice on how not to act based on a feeling of someone else, and do something that is not best, or what other errors I have to learn about in this area. Can any of the NTs on this list remember when you "learned" any of this- or was it always there? Are there any AS on this list who have gone through this experience, and can advise me? Thanks either way, Subject: Re: yawning and autismTo: aspires-relationships Date: Friday, August 8, 2008, 6:39 AM Daneeka and jennie said: Daneka said: >>Hi Jennie,A couple of thoughts come to mind when I read your post:(1) I think we - as a community - need a definition of "empathy" other than what the dictionary provides. Somehow, the idea is out there that people on the spectrum cannot feel the pain of others. Speaking personally (on my own husband's behalf), that's not true. Also, those of us on this list know that, in fact, that's not true. Just think of the AS members here.<< I am AS. LOL Anyway, can we do that? Just change the dictionary definition? Definite AS moment here... I'm thinking dictionary definitions are RULES you can't change them they just ARE. Though logically I know that word definitions have changed over time. I am still muddled about the differences between empathy and sympathy me here: i hate that too...you get told the same thing again and again and it doesnt stick. try this: when you sypmathise with someone you have experienced whatever they have, either, directly, previously or recently so you actually know what they are feeling. When you empathise with others you havent actually experienced what it is they have felt or experienced but you can put youtself in their position and "understand " how they feel with sympath it is " that HAS HAPPENED to me and i did feel......" i think this is where the confusion may be. people with AS can be sympathetic to a situation or person or event if they have experienced it before. They have had previous experience of this event. People with AS may not be able to empathise as even thou the event has happened, it didnt happen to them. they may be able to express sympathy , or even pseudo sympathy " shit if that happened to me I would feel bad" but i dont think they can feel empathy very well, even if they describe that they can. 36 m diagnosed AS Recent Activity 2 New PhotosVisit Your Group Meditation and Lovingkindness A Yahoo! Group to share and learn. Yahoo! Health Heartburn or Worse What symptoms are most serious? Yahoo! Groups Stay healthy and discover other people who can help. .. Not happy with your email address? Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Yahoo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2008 Report Share Posted August 9, 2008 Daneka, I think I yawn as much as anyone, when others are yawning. Even a person who does mot make a whole lot of eye contact can see a yawn- I used to look at people's mouths all the time, instead of their eyes. I am t empted to ask other ASpies I know if they yawn withen others yawn, too. claudia Subject: yawning and autismTo: "Aspires Aspires" <aspires-relationships >Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2008, 6:47 PM Apparently, this issue has been around a while, but I only discovered it. I heard about it on the radio, then did a google search and was surprised to discover that many people are looking into yawning as a key to understanding autism. The question is whether yawning is contagious for those on the spectrum, as it is for neuro-typicals. The supposition is that because autists lack empathy, yawning does not have the same impact, and is not contagious. The studies are out there to support this position.When I heard the radio segment, I thought, Bill would be pleased to learn there is now an objective test. Then, I did a google search, and thought - Bill will have a field day with this one.Here's one site on the subject:bps-research- digest.blogspot. com/2007/ 09/children- with-autism- are-immune- to.htmlAnyone heard of this?Daneka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2008 Report Share Posted August 9, 2008 I'd be very curious to know whether others on the spectrum experience contagious yawning as often as non-spectrum folk.Daneka From: Daneka Wheeler <danekawyahoo (DOT) com>Subject: [aspires-relationsh ips] yawning and autismTo: "Aspires Aspires" <aspires-relationshi psyahoogroups (DOT) com>Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2008, 6:47 PM Apparently, this issue has been around a while, but I only discovered it. I heard about it on the radio, then did a google search and was surprised to discover that many people are looking into yawning as a key to understanding autism. The question is whether yawning is contagious for those on the spectrum, as it is for neuro-typicals. The supposition is that because autists lack empathy, yawning does not have the same impact, and is not contagious. The studies are out there to support this position.When I heard the radio segment, I thought, Bill would be pleased to learn there is now an objective test. Then, I did a google search, and thought - Bill will have a field day with this one.Here's one site on the subject:bps-research- digest.blogspot. com/2007/ 09/children- with-autism- are-immune- to.htmlAnyone heard of this?Daneka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2008 Report Share Posted August 9, 2008 Daneka, I will ask around, and let you know pretty soon- there are many of us in the Treehouse (an AS online group)! From: Daneka Wheeler <danekawyahoo (DOT) com>Subject: [aspires-relationsh ips] yawning and autismTo: "Aspires Aspires" <aspires-relationshi psyahoogroups (DOT) com>Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2008, 6:47 PM Apparently, this issue has been around a while, but I only discovered it. I heard about it on the radio, then did a google search and was surprised to discover that many people are looking into yawning as a key to understanding autism. The question is whether yawning is contagious for those on the spectrum, as it is for neuro-typicals. The supposition is that because autists lack empathy, yawning does not have the same impact, and is not contagious. The studies are out there to support this position.When I heard the radio segment, I thought, Bill would be pleased to learn there is now an objective test. Then, I did a google search, and thought - Bill will have a field day with this one.Here's one site on the subject:bps-research- digest.blogspot. com/2007/ 09/children- with-autism- are-immune- to.htmlAnyone heard of this?Daneka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2008 Report Share Posted August 9, 2008 I get contagious yawning at Lookout games (Class AA affiliate of the Cincinnati Reds), especially when the other team's blowing the Lookouts away into oblivion. Tonight was nice. Starting pitcher threw a perfect game through seven innings, before giving away to a two-hit shutout after 7 1/3 innings. Closer came for the last five outs. I get contagious yawning at work, especially when my immediate supervisor starts barking at me about this and that and tries to find every little thing I do wrong instead of encouraging me. I get contagious yawning when my work doesn't spark my interest, and I find myself in a dead-end job. However, helps that my graduate advisor at the University of Kansas will be talking with me via phone next week to discuss possible PhD options for my future. I yawn contagiously when the world seems to be falling apart more and more, and I have less confidence in knowing the world will never be what it was. Yes, I do yawn contagiously, and am the first to admit it. > > I'd be very curious to know whether others on the spectrum experience contagious yawning as often as non-spectrum folk. > Daneka > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2008 Report Share Posted August 9, 2008 Ohhhhhhhhhh so that's where you all were after I stopped going tot he Treehouse years ago.. I get it.. > > From: Daneka Wheeler <danekawyahoo (DOT) com> > Subject: [aspires-relationsh ips] yawning and autism > To: " Aspires Aspires " <aspires-relationshi psyahoogroups (DOT) com> > Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2008, 6:47 PM > > > > > > > > > Apparently, this issue has been around a while, but I only discovered it. I heard about it on the radio, then did a google search and was surprised to discover that many people are looking into yawning as a key to understanding autism. The question is whether yawning is contagious for those on the spectrum, as it is for neuro-typicals. The supposition is that because autists lack empathy, yawning does not have the same impact, and is not contagious. The studies are out there to support this position. > > When I heard the radio segment, I thought, Bill would be pleased to learn there is now an objective test. Then, I did a google search, and thought - Bill will have a field day with this one. > > Here's one site on the subject: > bps-research- digest.blogspot. com/2007/ 09/children- with-autism- are-immune- to.html > > Anyone heard of this? > Daneka > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2008 Report Share Posted August 12, 2008  That does help some, thanks . Now if I can just encorporate that nice short answer with what I read on 5 other posts.... I'll be all set. Jennie AS Re: yawning and autism Daneeka and jennie said: Daneka said: >>Hi Jennie,A couple of thoughts come to mind when I read your post:(1) I think we - as a community - need a definition of "empathy" other than what the dictionary provides. Somehow, the idea is out there that people on the spectrum cannot feel the pain of others. Speaking personally (on my own husband's behalf), that's not true. Also, those of us on this list know that, in fact, that's not true. Just think of the AS members here.<< I am AS. LOL Anyway, can we do that? Just change the dictionary definition? Definite AS moment here... I'm thinking dictionary definitions are RULES you can't change them they just ARE. Though logically I know that word definitions have changed over time. I am still muddled about the differences between empathy and sympathy me here: i hate that too...you get told the same thing again and again and it doesnt stick. try this: when you sypmathise with someone you have experienced whatever they have, either, directly, previously or recently so you actually know what they are feeling. When you empathise with others you havent actually experienced what it is they have felt or experienced but you can put youtself in their position and "understand " how they feel with sympath it is " that HAS HAPPENED to me and i did feel......" i think this is where the confusion may be. people with AS can be sympathetic to a situation or person or event if they have experienced it before. They have had previous experience of this event. People with AS may not be able to empathise as even thou the event has happened, it didnt happen to them. they may be able to express sympathy , or even pseudo sympathy " shit if that happened to me I would feel bad" but i dont think they can feel empathy very well, even if they describe that they can. 36 m diagnosed AS Recent Activity 2 New PhotosVisit Your Group Meditation and Lovingkindness A Yahoo! Group to share and learn. Yahoo! Health Heartburn or Worse What symptoms are most serious? Yahoo! Groups Stay healthy and discover other people who can help. .. Not happy with your email address? Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Yahoo! No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.0/1601 - Release Date: 8/8/2008 9:02 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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