Re: Advise needed on IAQ system

[Guest guest]

Martha,

You are going to receive a range of responses from this group.

Many will say to run from the house. I usually don't go to that

extreme but in this case I do. Here's why:

1. Synthetic stucco (Dryvit and others) with moisture problems

are extremely difficult to completely fix. Even if current moisture

problems are stopped there is no assurance that there won't be

new ones. Dryvit (and others) were in a class action suit several

years ago. Google " Dryvit litigation " . Dryvit insisted that if it was

installed correctly then moisture could not get through it. The

problem is nobody figured out how to install it correctly unless

there were no windows or doors or other penetations in the shell.

Newer versions (which you probably have) now have drainage

planes built into the wall assemblies which allow the water to

drain out rather than accumulate inside the walls rotting the wood

framing and OSB sheathing. Even if you have the newer version,

it still had leaks and apparantly mold growth.

$27K does not seem like much for removing the exterior Dryvit

membrane, cleaning up the walls and installing a different kind of

covering on the entire house. It sounds more like certain areas

around some of the windows and doors had leaks and those

areas were opened and repaired. Which means Dryvit will be

reinstalled and you are possibly back to the original problems.

You said the outside has been repaired but you also need to

know about the inside of the wall assemblies. Did any of the

water get inside? While fixing the outside did they open any

inside walls? Was containment properly used? Is all structure

now dried?

2. I don't know what an " IAQ system " is. There is no specific

product or groups of products which are called an " IAQ system "

which is actually a system. Also, IAQ stands for Indoor Air Quality

and there are dozens of factors affecting IAQ other than mold.

Mold is but one of many.

Filtration equipment can help but they cannot remove the mold

growth from a structure. They can only remove mold spores,

hyphae, and fragments (particles) from the air which actually

goes through the filter. It cannot go to the source of the growth

and remove the mold growth or mold components. HEPA is the

best filter type but HEPA does not remove the molecular

components (smaller than particles) or other emanations from

mold growth.

3. I agree with the mold remediator that mold moves too quickly

through the UV lights on forced air systems to be killed. But even

if they were killed there is little to no difference in health effects.

That's because the parts of mold growth, mold spores, and

hyphal fragments which cause reactions are still present in dead

mold as well as live mold. The mold must be removed whether

dead or alive.

4. I disagree with the mold remediator about mold inside walls

being of no concern. Unless walls and floors and ceilings are

each built air tight (to hold a vacuum) whatever is inside the walls

can and will come out. Maybe not very quickly but they will

eventually. Even if the spores from mold growth are too big to get

out the smaller fragments and the molecular sized components

can. A study at the Indoor Air 2002 conference found 60% of

homes with occupant complaints had mold inside the walls but

not detectable by routine testing methods.

5. Have all the leaks been found? Have all areas of mold growth

been identified? Because remediation hasn't started it is

impossible for anyone to answer those questions right now. The

key should be some sort of verification and then a warranty that

you and your family won't get sick while inside the house. If the

industrial hygienist or seller won't sign such a statement then why

should you believe their assurances that the job has been

successful. Successful for who? Them who won't live in the

house? Or you who will?

6. Water damage creates more than mold growth. It also creates

bacterial growth, rot, and release of chemicals from water

damaged materials according to the 2004 Inst of Medicine Report

" Damp Indoor Spaces and Health. " The 2008 AIHA publication

" Recognition, Evaluation, and Control of Indoor Mold " broadened

that concern to what they called " filth caused by moisture. " The

recent WHO report goes even further. It is a mistake to focus

only on mold when any of the other factors can make you ill. You

need them all removed with a particular focus on moisture and

water damage.

7. I'd look for a way to turn down the contract other than the issue

of what an " IAQ system " really is. There are bigger issues.

Listen carefully to what others say, also. They've been through it

and know what works and what doesn't.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

We (my husband, 3 children and I) will soon be moving into a new home,

built in 1995. Until last year the house was covered with dryvit (stucco).

It's been removed and all external moisture damage was repaired. So we

thought we were safe.

After putting a contract on it the inspector found evidence of mold. The

seller had an industrial hygienist come in and do complete testing. Seller

is paying for all remediation (about a $27k job). I thought once it was

cleaned up there wouldn't be anything to worry about.

Part of our contract states the seller is to install an Indoor Air Quality

system on the HVAC units. When I added that to the contract we weren't

specific in what we wanted, because I really don't know anything about

them. I have heard about the UV light systems that kill mold spores, and

am wondering if they really work.

Today I ran into the mold remediator that may be doing the work (still

waiting for all bids to come in) and asked him about the air system he

would put on. He said those UV systems don't really kill mold, that the

air moves too fast for that. He said some good filters would work. He told

me that if the mold is contained inside the wall there is no concern. I was

shocked. If he ends up doing the work, I will probably have to take legal

action to get out of the contract. I really don't think he knows what he's

talking about. How can it be ok for mold to stay in the walls? What

happens when we do all our planned remodeling?

I'd like to know from those of you who have an IAQ system what you

have found to work the best at keeping the air mold-free once mold has

been removed from the building. I feel I need to insist that the

remediation work include a specific type of IAQ unit, but I don't know

what to ask for.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

(Sorry this post was so long...)

Thanks!

Martha

----------

The following section of this message contains a file attachment

prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format.

If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any other MIME-compliant system,

you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer.

If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.

---- File information -----------

File: DEFAULT.BMP

Date: 15 Jun 2009, 23:10

Size: 358 bytes.

Type: Unknown

[Guest guest]

>

> We (my husband, 3 children and I) will soon be moving into a new home, built

in 1995. Until last year the house was covered with dryvit (stucco). It's been

removed and all external moisture damage was repaired. So we thought we were

safe.

>

_____________________

I have added a U/Vlight to the downstairs system, but do not rely on solely it

for IAQ. We got ride of the old air handler from under the house, and now have

a new one outside the house, and it is now all in one package unit-- not two

separate units.

Find out about the guy's credentials, and then go read at that org's website. I

will probably be doing occassional air sampling near the return, and will have

my A/C system checked at least twice a year for a while. I will probably try to

fog it with something here and there, not totally sure what yet, but still

researching, and might have it cleaned some in the ducts. I may try to replace

the flex duct (gradually, slowly) with all metal over time. An HVAC system will

never be failsafe. As soon as you think it is, then whammo! Know your a/c

system, check it often, or have someone you trust to check it often.

I dehumidify the indoor air, and have humidistats all over my house. I do

frequent odor checks - live mold have VOC odor, and I think you get more

sensitive to it after getting better from mold exposure. I also filter the air

inside the house, but may later add more filtration to the system. However, in

all my reading, the trend I find is that the more you add to your HVAC system,

the more invitations there are for problems. I am also still using " filter

fans " to reduce spore counts -- this actually helped reduce the spore counts

from one test to the next.

Most of the independent mold guys I have met seem to have a " gonna have some

mold " kind of attitude -- yikes, huh? I'd rather do the work myself! You have

to figure out how much mold you are willing to tolerate. .........me - not

much at all. Yeah, but THEY don't have to live in YOUR house!!

[Guest guest]

All I can say is that it soulds like this home had some very serious mold

problems and you couldn't give it to me, exspecially with a contractor doing

repairs that says mold in the walls wont hurt anything, run.

>

> Martha,

>

> You are going to receive a range of responses from this group.

> Many will say to run from the house. I usually don't go to that

> extreme but in this case I do. Here's why:

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Martha,

We built a home in 2005 , not stucco but siding and brick. The mold grew

behind the drywall on the OSB board and on the framing of the windows and on

studs behind the drywall. We all became very ill from the mold that was

behind the walls, in fact when the CIH was doing his initial testing they

were having a hard time finding all the mold that we knew was there, once

they opened up the walls however it was obvious. The CIH told us that the

mold spores were coming through light sockets, electrical outlets and even

from the air pockets behind the walls. Please don't let anyone tell you that

the mold behind the walls is not harmful, it very nearly killed

me,permanently injured my whole family and contaminated everything in our

home. To give you an idea of cost on how much removing all the siding, dring

out all of the wood and replacing all the weatherproofing, we had an

estimate of nearly $400,000. The house was 6000sq ft so that is maybe so

high for that reason but still 27k-we paid more than that to the hygeniest.

Sounds like they are trying to put a bandaid on a much bigger problem.

Truly I would run as far as I can from this house, stucco is notorius for

having moisture issues and the health of your family really can be

jeopardized. You can read our story at www.donttrustdrees.com to show you

how devasting mold illness is.

I wish you the very best of luck.

.

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 9:03 PM, Carl E. Grimes <grimes@...> wrote:

>

>

> Martha,

>

> You are going to receive a range of responses from this group.

> Many will say to run from the house. I usually don't go to that

> extreme but in this case I do. Here's why:

>

>