Re: RE: ATTIC INSULATION

[Guest guest]

Isn't there formaldehyde in that foam?

Barth

---

BBW> I had to do this, and not finished with attic yet but have come to the

conclusion that there is no good choices. I cleaned out my attic entirely

because house has plaster walls and they crack

BBW> easily which allowed air to flow down from attic into house and carried

irritating, dirty insulation with air flow I discovered. Now cleaned, I plan to

foam attic in, but you cannot foam over

BBW> old insulation and it is more than twice as expensive as most other

insulations that I checked, but if plaster cracks, I won't get insulaton

circulating inside of house. I don't like fiberglass

BBW> because I think eventually fiberglass will be considered as asbestos

because airborne, if it gets into lungs, it will never come out. The other

choices seem to me to sound very mold

BBW> susceptible, like cellulose, cotton, etc. Environmentally friendly but

mold friendly also. If you foam, you have to pay to have your old insulation

taken out. There are two types of foam:

BBW> Icynene and Sealection. They are chemically different, not just different

brands. If you foam attic floor, you can keep existing attic roof vents. If

you foam underside of roof, you close up

BBW> attic vents, if there are any, as they aren't needed anymore and defeat the

purpose of foaming.

BBW>

>>

>> Our house was built in 1969 is well built and in good shape, but we really

need to add some insulation in the attic and replace the attic stair door.

>> Can anyone help me out with what type insulation is best to use? We had a man

out who wants to use the loose type which they spread all over what is already

there. Has anyone done this recently

>> and had any health problems with it?

>> Any advice will be appreciated.

>>

>> Thanks, Sue

>>

>>

>>

[Guest guest]

I found this while looking.  Air Crete

http://www.airkrete.com/

 

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

________________________________

From: Barb B W <barb1283@...>

Sent: Sat, November 14, 2009 10:38:11 PM

Subject: [] Re: attic insulation

 

Pat. I don't know. I didn't ask about the chemistry. I just liked the fact it

would keep air movement in the house from moving from attic down into house,

attic air sealed off from house, since attic isn't clean area, but I wouldn't be

surprised. I'm not happy with any of the choices.

[Guest guest]

I'm not sure it is either, but I thought I remembered someone saying

there was formaldehyde in the foam. I don't like the thought of

fiberglass either. What about the sheets of sealed up insulation? I

forget what it is called.

Barth

www.presenting.net/sbs/sbs.html

SUBMIT YOUR DOCTOR: www.presenting.net/sbs/molddoctors.html

---

BBW> Pat. I don't know. I didn't ask about the chemistry. I just liked the

fact it would keep air movement in the house from moving from attic down into

house, attic air sealed off from house,

BBW> since attic isn't clean area, but I wouldn't be surprised.

[Guest guest]

I guess a good idea would be to consult with a building specialist.  I have

found these guys good in answering questions I have asked in the past.  Hope it

helps !!

http://www.greenbuildingsupply.com//Public/Home/index.cfm

 

  

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

________________________________

From: Barb B W <barb1283@...>

Sent: Sun, November 15, 2009 7:56:46 AM

Subject: [] Re: attic insulation

 

I think Aircrete can only be used on verticle insulation jobs, like walls since

it doesn't allow moisture movement.

[Guest guest]

Here are several links : I talked to so many people who could not understand

basic things.  I do not know how they get licenses.

http://www.homesthatheal.com/bau_biologie.html

http://buildingbiology.net/

http://www.buildingscienceconsulting.com/

 

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

________________________________

From: Barb B W <barb1283@...>

Sent: Sun, November 15, 2009 4:50:02 PM

Subject: [] Re: attic insulation

 

Mayleen, Where do you find 'building specialists' ? Are these engineers? I have

worked with 'builders' and been very disappointed to the point of not going

ahead with building

[Guest guest]

Jeff, thank you so much for your reply but the insulation that we are

considering is the loose type R-30 fiberglass that they would spread on top of

the old batting type that is already between the wooden rafters. The old batting

has been there since 1968 and needs more. We can stand in the center of our

attic and it is a hip type roof. Is there any problem with that type of

insulation?

Thanks so much for your help!

Sue

[] RE: ATTIC INSULATION

Sue,

There is no formaldehyde in Icynene.

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the info. I've never heard of recycled denim. I'm always scared to do

anything but we are trying to do some home improvements to upgrade our home. I

am safe in my home but want to do some things but also want to keep it that way.

Green Depot has insulation made from recycled denim-it's the only stuff I would

use. I had a really bad experience with insulation when we tried to insulate the

basement ceiling to keep our first floor warmer. The insulation came through the

wood floors (or something) because the particles killed my eyes and lungs. I

will NEVER insulate again! Please be careful all that stuff is very toxic.

[] Re: attic insulation

Green Depot has insulation made from recycled denim-it's the only stuff I would

use. I had a really bad experience with insulation when we tried to insulate the

basement ceiling to keep our first floor warmer. The insulation came through the

wood floors (or something) because the particles killed my eyes and lungs. I

will NEVER insulate again! Please be careful all that stuff is very toxic.

>

> Our house was built in 1969 is well built and in good shape, but we really

need to add some insulation in the attic and replace the attic stair door.

> Can anyone help me out with what type insulation is best to use? We had a man

out who wants to use the loose type which they spread all over what is already

there. Has anyone done this recently and had any health problems with it?

> Any advice will be appreciated.

>

> Thanks, Sue

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the info. I never know what to do. I try to make improvements and

then end up having nightmares about it all. I got sick at my workplace and have

never had any problems in my home. The house was built by a good bulder in 1968.

My mother bought it in 1969 so it only had one owner before her then we bought

it from her in 1994. We thught of adding some insulation to the attic but I

really don't know which is the best type to use or may be we shouldn't do

aything at all! It'a always so difficult to decide what to do.

[] Re: attic insulation

Pat. I don't know. I didn't ask about the chemistry. I just liked the fact it

would keep air movement in the house from moving from attic down into house,

attic air sealed off from house, since attic isn't clean area, but I wouldn't be

surprised. I'm no

[Guest guest]

There is formaldehyde in most fiberglas insulation I believe. Don't know about

the foam. Although some of those companies claim to be safe for mcs'ers, I've

never seen conclusive proof that that is so.

There is a formaldehyde free insulation. I think you can find it by googling.

But I agree with Barb that it is not the best choice for people with asthma

related issues. Alot too can depend on how meticulous the installers would be as

well. Can imagine what a mess could occur in the house if it is not done right.

Sam

Pat. Re: foam contains formaldeyde: I don't know. I didn't ask about the

chemistry.

[Guest guest]

Do you know whether or not the recycled denim is mold-free or resistant?

Green Depot has insulation made from recycled denim-it's the only stuff I would

use.

[Guest guest]

I agree that an added chem would not be good. But I would worry that cotton

would not be mold resistant by itself and might overtime become too much of a

collector of mold and other things. Too bad there isn't something like that made

of wool.

 

Mold resistent denim for insulation would have chemical added. I'd love to

use something like denim that doesn't blow around, but if it has something in it

that kills mold, wouldn't be good to breath either I would think.

 

[Guest guest]

Jeff, thanks again for all your advice and taking the time to write. At

this point I don't know what to do. Our house is in good shape and I'm fine at

home. I certainly don't want to create any problems that we don't have.

Our attic gets hot and cold but it is dry so after thinking about all this

and reading all the posts I'm afraid to do anything. I certainly don't want

ANY condensation problems so perhaps we'll just get a new attic door with

the zipper insulation and be done with it. This mold thing is such a

nightmare, The man that was here (from Home Depot) was very nice and seemed to

know

what he was talking about. Then again, they really don't understand the

whole mold thing that I'm so concerned about. We don't have any and I don't

want any. I'll keep researching and try to do the best I can.

Thanks, again, for all you help. It is greatly appreciated.

Sue

Jeff wrote:

I suppose that there will always be someone out there that will have a

problem with something, so there are no guarantees.

Perhaps you can minimize your chances for future difficulties by

obtaining a bag of the the insulation you are planning to use and

having a professional installer spread some of it out in the attic.

[Guest guest]

Carl,

Would the same hold true for vapor barriers in dirt crawl spaces as you are

saying could happen with vapor barrier in an attic?

Is the material for the vapor barrier the same? What is the right material?

Thanks very much,

Sam

 

Carl/: When you say a vapor barrier on the ground, you mean right on

the dirt, not on a cement floor, correct?

Can paint on concrete be an effective vapor barrier?

<

[Guest guest]

Barb,

See also my response to Sam.

Yes, I'm talking about a vapor barrier on the ground, right on the

dirt.

For cement floors you have a very different situation. A plastic

vapor barrier should be under cement, not over it. If significant

moisture is coming up through a cement floor it will pool under a

sealed barrier and look like a water bed. Different measures are

needed which are difficult and expensive.

Paint on cement can help as a vapor barrier but only when under

slight pressure. If too high pressure it will push the paint off the

surface. when you see flaking paint on basement walls, for

example, that is what's happening.

Also, paint is a horrible barrier, more like a slight retarder.

Moisture can move through it to some extent. You need a sealer

instead of just paint. Oil based sealers are better but then they

are more apt to be pushed off the surface.

Moisture through cement is a difficult problem often with no good

answers. Which is why some builders are not recommending that

basements and crawlspaces should not be built.

Jeff May and Connie may have other suggestions also.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

Carl/: When you say a vapor barrier on the ground, you mean right on the

dirt, not on a cement floor, correct?

Can paint on concrete be an effective vapor barrier?

>

> ,

>

> My comment on: " and with a vapor barrier on the ground. Watch

> though if mold grows under the vapor barrier, it could get into the

> house. "

>

> I agree mold can grow under the vapor barrier. But only if it is the

> wrong material and not installed correctly. If the material is

> technically rated as an actual barrier rather than a retarder and

> properly sealed around edges and seams then the mold - neither

> the spores nor the chemical components - can get through it. In

> fact, because molecules cannot get out from underneath the

> barrier that means air cannot get under the barrier. If air cannot

> get underneath then mold cannot grow.

>

> A sealed barrier of the proper material will not grow mold beneath

> it. An unsealed or loose barrier that is not a barrier will grow mold

> beneath it. In fact, it will usually grow more mold than if there

> were no barrier at all.

>

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

>

>

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[Guest guest]

Hi ALl,

Haven't been reading all the posts on this subject, but now that you are

talking about vapor barriers and crawl spaces I am going to chime in as

a crawl space appears to be one of two major sources of air

contamination in our home, the other being the HVAC system..

Our crawl space is under a stairway that is on the outside front of the

house. There is a little metal doorway so this space can be accessed

from the ground level entry way, but this is kept closed. Nonetheless,

mold is growing in this crawl space and contaminating the whole house.

(Of course we won't know for absolutely sure that there isn't another

contamination source until this is remediated). The crawl space has

dirt floor. About a year ago, every time it rained, the room adjacent

to this crawl space would start smelling so bad of mustiness that we put

a space heater in the crawl space and left it running, before that we

added another air vent, none of this solved the problem though, and the

problem has been there all along is my guess, just wasn't noticeable..

Had a drainage specialist come out, he said no one understood about

drainage problems back in the 1930's when the house was built, it's too

bad because other than this the house was extremely well built and lived

in by the builder...They would just pour the concrete slab w/o thinking

of drainage. The problem in our house the drainage specialist said is

that the crawl space is the low point in the entire house and when it

rains water runs from the back of the house and other front corner down

to this low point where it pools (although it's not so bad that there is

actually standing water). He recommended putting in fans to force the

crawl space air out, vapor barrier on the ground, and replacing some

sheetrocking, a quick inexpensive fix, but he's not a mold guy, and I

don't think that this will solve the problem either.... Another

problem, our house is your typical old san francisco row house, meaning

there is just a tiny crack between the houses, and water pools between

them and can't get out, they didn't think about that in the old days

either or wouldn't have built them one up against another...

SHould get the IAQ guy's recommendations soon.

But the drainage specialist said the right fix is to rip up the entire

concrete slab and put in a drainage system (our neighbors put in french

drains when they remodeled their ground level space, when we did the

same years ago no one even mentioned drainage as an issue...), but of

course this is very expensive. We probably won't do that as the docs

are saying my sick kid should not return even to the remediated house,

that there will still be a " homeopathic " memory of the mold that

contributed to his sickness (homeopathic is my wording, not the docs,

but you get the idea, no matter how much you clean it up there will

still be some of it there).

sue v

>Barb,

>

>See also my response to Sam.

>

>Yes, I'm talking about a vapor barrier on the ground, right on the

>dirt.

[Guest guest]

Vapor barriers installed correctly for the climate and building type can prevent

mold. You need someone who knows how. But first you need appropriate

remediation. Get the bad stuff out so they can see what's going on. From the

way you have described the situation this not a job for a handyman or the

inexperienced.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

(fm my Blackberry)

[] Re: Attic insulation

Hi Connie,

Probably nobody has looked under the cellulose. I certainly won't even go up

there. It will be removed soon. The L/R ceiling starts to cave when it rains -

no leaks in roof so I imagine cellulose is absorbing water. It's metal roof &

it's so darn wet here. I'm sure it would cause a moisture problem if I insulated

the roof itself. I really have a fear of vapor barriers too ...mold. Interior

walls got wet at some point. It may have been a leak once or the wet insulation

soaking the walls for years. I don't know what to do next.

>

> ,

> I have not been on the group's site in a while, so I do not know if your

questions were answered. I was a little concerned when I read your comment

about having no ventilation in your attic. Ventilation in the attic is not

necessary if an adequate vapor barrier is present to prevent moisture migration

from the living space into the attic. Vapor diffusion is a strong force and

moist air will always seek dry areas. Since an average family of four produces

approximately 15 liters of moisture per day, the absence of vapor barriers or

ventilation to remove moisture can result in condensation in the attic space.

Have you checked under the blown-in insulation to see if a vapor barrier is

present? Also, if there are recessed lights, these should e caged and insulated

with a vapor barrier to prevent moisture migration. I have some photos of good

insulation practices for recessed lights.

>

> Installing an exhaust fan near the floor of the attic could pull moist air

from the living space.

>

> I have seen many attics that are properly insulated without ventilation (often

referred to as the " hot deck " method), two part foam is used to completely seal

the attic.

>

> I know it can be costly, but consultation from a qualified licensed engineer

with expertise in ventilation is well worth the costs. Buildings need to be

viewed from multi-discipline approach. Far too often egos and ignorance get in

the way of good advice.

>

> Connie Morbach M.S., CHMM, CIE

> Sanit-Air, Inc.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Our attic sounds similar in construction. Built in 1967 with solid wood

hip roof, & beams with only 2 small vents.We are in a small development built

by a good local builder. We have lived here since l994 which we bought

from my mother. Only 1 other owner before her for a yr. House has oil heat and

original windows. It's very warm in the winter but you can feel a little

air around the windows in the winter on windy days.I think a little air is a

good thing & not all sealed tight. Attic gets hot in the winter but never

damp and no mold. Cold in the winter but we have a little insulating tent

over the stairs. We will have to replace the roof in a few years and I'm

scared to death. I fear they will go with new codes and mess it up. I am

fine in my home and want to stay that way.

Sue R.

[Guest guest]

Check this out for floor refinishing. I think they have them in many

different areas. I have a friend who used them and is VERY happy. No odor and

very little mess. She lives in a house that's about 100 years old and the

floors turned out really nice. _http://www.mrsandless.com/_

(http://www.mrsandless.com/)

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/27/2010 8:45:12 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

safersmilesdentallab@... writes:

, yes there is insulation on the floor of the attic which is above the

downstairs ceilings. Our house is a one story. No dampness at all on the

insulation or the attic. We had someone try to talk us into more

insulation but we decided to not to do anything. If we don't have any problems

then we'd rather just leave things the way they are.

>>

Sue do you have insulation on the floor (really the downstairs ceiling) of

the attic ? My attic isn't moldy but the cellulose is damp. I guess mold

can't grow on cellulose plus the extremely dry summer fixes it all. Now I'm

wondering if I should keep the cellulose. Once I get wood storage I can use

the wood stove all winter & keep things dry so the L/R ceiling doesn't

collapse. I only used 1/2 cord this winter. The wood was damp, nowhere good to

put it. I had an awful time - a newbie to wood burning, wet wood, & heavy

inversions. Most of the wood didn't even have a flame it just charred from

the inside out. It should be a piece of cake next winter with dry wood !

Another thing that could be from the wet cellulose is that ants are

crawling up the house, in & out of the attic, it seems, and down the other side

of the house...in LARGE numbers. Once the lizards came out it's been greatly

reduced. Went to the National Forest office for advice. Didn't want to

re-apply boric acid & undermine my lizard helpers. She recommended fresh coffe

grounds. Seems the ants look a bit sickly today but not sure if it's the

coffee or the drop in temp.

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the advice. Our house is well built and we have never had any

problems and I don't want ANY. My home is the only place I can stay well. My

husband is approaching retirement in a few yrs. and we plan to say here as

long as we can. I don't want anything to do with condos or moving to

someplace that may make me sick. The attic is fine now and I don't want anyone

messing with the structure when it's been fine since 1968!!!!! I have a

friend who is a builder so may be when we need to replace the shingles he will

be able to recommend someone. I really would like to find someone ( not a

roofer) to inspect the shingles to be sure they are in good shape or do they

need replacement before a problem. Any suggestions who you call to give

you an HONEST answer and not scare you into needing a new roof now because

THEY want the money.

>>

Remember Sue if they say new code says you have to put vents, you can

either point out that it has existed for this many years without them with no

moisture problems and I'd say ask them to sign something that if the vents

cause indoor problems, they will pay for the damage. If they say they HAVE TO

due to city code, then find out if code allows no vents with foam

insulation. That's what I heard, foam insulation is being accepted as an

alternative to venting.

[Guest guest]

waht is the weatherization program? sue

>California. I know there are ways to be a squeaky wheel with the

>Weatherization Program. The onset of MCS has made it more difficult than

>I'd like to access the part of my brain that deals with red tape &

>complications :-).

>

>

>

>> >

>> > Thanks but no upstairs or downstairs. Furniture consists of the

>sewing machine the owner left & a chair someone gave me. The room is

>basically a storagte closet for my shoes, things that haven't outgassed

> & tons of papers. I don't tolerate paper well & it has to be dealt with

>in particular ways before it's in my living space. Thought of buying a

>POD. If I become homeless I could put it at a storage place. If I run

>out of money before I get de-molded I could put my things in there &

>stop paying storage & if the house turnes out to be too small I'll have

>extra room... & lastly, it has potential as a living space. I need to be

>very frugal though so I think my needs through thoroughly. I've been

>going crazy for months on where to put one too...or put a wood shed or

>both, or plastic, or metal... AGH. The terrain is pretty rough & you

>have to drive over the leach field to get to the smoother side. I wish I

>had someone here to see the place & to bounce ideas off of.

>> >

>> >

>>

>

>