Re: Mold Misinformation - was Alek, Run to Home Depot

[Guest guest]

,

I really need to correct and comment on your misinformed statements and sweeping

generalizations. (see below signature for an excerpt of his statements).

This kind of authoratative sounding provision of information is typical of the

primary reason our industry (indoor environmental health and hygiene) is in such

a mess. In a word, Misinformation.

First, there are NOT two types of " black mold " . There are perhaps hundreds, in

perhaps dozen or more genera.

If you would take a quick look at a good mycology text, you will find that just

the Aspergillus genus alone may have dozens of species characterized as black;

and not just simply black, but a range of black: greenish-black, bluish-black,

reddish-black, brownish-black, whitish-black (oops, that would be gray, right?).

A.niger grows pure black as black comes. I have seen typically black Aspergillus

that were mustard yellow, or fuschia, or blood-red; specific culture showed

these unusual growths to be Aspergillus species. The mycologists do not have an

explanation for this unusual condition.

How about the fact that the infamous and inappropriately named " black mold " ,

Stachybotrys (atra or chartarum, or other sp; aka 'stachy') can grow pure white.

Yes, this is true, ask a mycologist who has cultured it under different

conditions.

The new, fast growing mycelia are white, and as they age, they become black.

Some have characterized Stachy as 'slimey black'. Do you know why? It is NOT

because it appears to the naked eye as slimy. It was an error in reporting

during the initial Cleveland hemosiderosis investigation; the scientists

reported that the Stachy was black and slimy. The popular press and less

knowledgable of the public health and medical community took this to be the

macro description, not the micro. It is called sticky because the spores have a

fine layer of " slime " which makes them sticky; hence, it is difficult to become

airborn, where it is too dry to germinate; Stachy likes to stay where the water

is. The stickiness allows it to do this (isn't biology amazing!).

There is no scientific description of ANY mold species (that I have ever seen)

that includes the word 'slimy'. You will find fuzzy, cottony, sooty, etc. But

never slimy. Think about it, ALL mold looks slimy when wet or submerged in

liquid water. But when grown above, on a surface, it has characteristics more

like dry material than wet.

The statement that 'black mold has deadly spores' is also irresponsible and

likely not accurate. You are more likely to die (by a factor or two) from a

pathogenic mold than from your ill-defined toxic mold. Period. This is not

debatable, it is medical and epidemiological fact.

Then, to state this un-named 'toxic black mold' is a north/west phenomenon is

also irresponsible as it is incorrect. If you mean the S.c. species, this mold

is found ANYWHERE there is sufficient water and appropriate temperatures, such

as indoors with slow chronic leaks, or after sewage or river flooding, where

there is excess organic debris in the flood water and where the conditions

remain wet for many many days (preferably more than 10, upwards of 21 or more).

The mold you find in most bathrooms: again, what misinformation, or better,

misrepresentation of the facts. I find many genus and many more species growing

in similar conditions; as should any reputable hygienist or environmental

scientist properly trained to sample and characterize a given environment.

Cleaning " everyday " mold with soap and water and clorox? What, please tell me,

is " everyday " mold? There is no such thing. There is mold that is found

frequently under similar conditions, like showers. But that does not make it any

different than the rare mold found under unusual circumstances. The number of

species is too great for any responsible professional to make this

generalization. Cleaning has been debated and discussed ad nauseum on this

group, I won't go there - yet, for now!

The statement " no special mask is needed " for the not toxic mold is simply

DANGEROUS.

I recommend that anyone with a risk of illness or symptoms or excessive exposure

to ANY mold should wear an N-100 fitted respirator; if not available or if not

possible because of physical limitations (should be fitted) then at the least

wear an N-100 disposable (e.g., from 3M; they cost few quarters more than the

N-95, but fit 10 times better, are very comfortable, allow more range of

movement and activity, and do a much better job at protecting your body). (yes,

the leading govt recommendations state N-95, but that is due to complex

decision-making that I don't want to go into, so just wear the N-100, you'll be

better off for it.)

I would NEVER differentiate between some ill-defined " toxic " mold and any other.

The protection required, the cleanup methods, are the SAME. REGARDLESS of

species. PERIOD. No debate.

I can go further,and perhaps others on this list would like to hear about the

details of mold in house. For now, please re-read your statements, and please

make sure to validate them before you make them public again.

Please, if you are not a specialist in the field, or if you do not have the

documentation to back up your statements (readily available for review and/or

distribution) do not comment. More importantly, please do not put yourself out

there as an educator or consultant providing helpful information. I believe you

stated you were a chemist, I hope you know not to step outside your field of

expertise, if by nothing more, then your profession's code of ethics. (I follow

the AIHA code for industrial hygienists.)

Thank You,

Armour, M.S. Environmental and Occupational Health

Director, Cleveland Chapter of the IAQA

For those who didn't see it, wrote the following:

>

> However, the mold genre needs to be determined. There are two types of black

mold.

>

> The one that is truly ugly is called " Black Mold " as a formal name.

> The other one is what lay people will see every day in most bathrooms.

>

> They are not the same. Far different.

>

> The every day mold that are small black dots can be cleaned off with

> scrubbing with soapy water, or clorox, if you must. No special face

> mask is needed for this every day type of black colored mold.

>

As the cost difference is huge, you better be sure which you have.

> WARNING: Black Mold has deadly spores. Do not inhale them.

>

> Black Mold is mostly a northern mid west of the USA issue.

>

>

> http://www.google.com/search?q=black+mold

>

[Guest guest]

,

Your message was very helpful. I am glad you pointed out that stachybotrys can

grow anywhere (when the conditions are right) including the Midwest part of the

country and the desert Southwest too.

I have heard stachy defined as slimy. Have you ever touched stachy? It is

slimy to the touch. Are there other molds that mix with stachy that would cause

it to be slimy?

________________________________

From: " scottarmour@... " <scottarmour@...>

Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2009 7:50:48 AM

Subject: [] Re: Mold Misinformation - was Alek, Run to Home Depot

,

I really need to correct and comment on your misinformed statements and sweeping

generalizations. (see below signature for an excerpt of his statements).

This kind of authoratative sounding provision of information is typical of the

primary reason our industry (indoor environmental health and hygiene) is in such

a mess. In a word, Misinformation.

First, there are NOT two types of " black mold " . There are perhaps hundreds, in

perhaps dozen or more genera.

If you would take a quick look at a good mycology text, you will find that just

the Aspergillus genus alone may have dozens of species characterized as black;

and not just simply black, but a range of black: greenish-black, bluish-black,

reddish-black, brownish-black, whitish-black (oops, that would be gray, right?).

A.niger grows pure black as black comes. I have seen typically black Aspergillus

that were mustard yellow, or fuschia, or blood-red; specific culture showed

these unusual growths to be Aspergillus species. The mycologists do not have an

explanation for this unusual condition.

How about the fact that the infamous and inappropriately named " black mold " ,

Stachybotrys (atra or chartarum, or other sp; aka 'stachy') can grow pure white.

Yes, this is true, ask a mycologist who has cultured it under different

conditions.

The new, fast growing mycelia are white, and as they age, they become black.

[Guest guest]

One more comment. You state that it's difficult for stachy to become airborne.

I want to add----stachy has been found in air tests, so it can and sometimes

does become airborne.

________________________________

From: " scottarmour@... " <scottarmour@...>

Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2009 7:50:48 AM

Subject: [] Re: Mold Misinformation - was Alek, Run to Home Depot

,

I really need to correct and comment on your misinformed statements and sweeping

generalizations. (see below signature for an excerpt of his statements).

This kind of authoratative sounding provision of information is typical of the

primary reason our industry (indoor environmental health and hygiene) is in such

a mess. In a word, Misinformation.

First, there are NOT two types of " black mold " . There are perhaps hundreds, in

perhaps dozen or more genera.

If you would take a quick look at a good mycology text, you will find that just

the Aspergillus genus alone may have dozens of species characterized as black;

and not just simply black, but a range of black: greenish-black, bluish-black,

reddish-black, brownish-black, whitish-black (oops, that would be gray, right?).

A.niger grows pure black as black comes. I have seen typically black Aspergillus

that were mustard yellow, or fuschia, or blood-red; specific culture showed

these unusual growths to be Aspergillus species. The mycologists do not have an

explanation for this unusual condition.

How about the fact that the infamous and inappropriately named " black mold " ,

Stachybotrys (atra or chartarum, or other sp; aka 'stachy') can grow pure white.

Yes, this is true, ask a mycologist who has cultured it under different

conditions.

The new, fast growing mycelia are white, and as they age, they become black.

Some have characterized Stachy as 'slimey black'. Do you know why? It is NOT

because it appears to the naked eye as slimy. It was an error in reporting

during the initial Cleveland hemosiderosis investigation; the scientists

reported that the Stachy was black and slimy. The popular press and less

knowledgable of the public health and medical community took this to be the

macro description, not the micro. It is called sticky because the spores have a

fine layer of " slime " which makes them sticky; hence, it is difficult to become

airborn, where it is too dry to germinate; Stachy likes to stay where the water

is. The stickiness allows it to do this (isn't biology amazing!).

There is no scientific description of ANY mold species (that I have ever seen)

that includes the word 'slimy'. You will find fuzzy, cottony, sooty, etc. But

never slimy. Think about it, ALL mold looks slimy when wet or submerged in

liquid water. But when grown above, on a surface, it has characteristics more

like dry material than wet.

The statement that 'black mold has deadly spores' is also irresponsible and

likely not accurate. You are more likely to die (by a factor or two) from a

pathogenic mold than from your ill-defined toxic mold. Period. This is not

debatable, it is medical and epidemiological fact.

Then, to state this un-named 'toxic black mold' is a north/west phenomenon is

also irresponsible as it is incorrect. If you mean the S.c. species, this mold

is found ANYWHERE there is sufficient water and appropriate temperatures, such

as indoors with slow chronic leaks, or after sewage or river flooding, where

there is excess organic debris in the flood water and where the conditions

remain wet for many many days (preferably more than 10, upwards of 21 or more).

The mold you find in most bathrooms: again, what misinformation, or better,

misrepresentation of the facts. I find many genus and many more species growing

in similar conditions; as should any reputable hygienist or environmental

scientist properly trained to sample and characterize a given environment.

Cleaning " everyday " mold with soap and water and clorox? What, please tell me,

is " everyday " mold? There is no such thing. There is mold that is found

frequently under similar conditions, like showers. But that does not make it any

different than the rare mold found under unusual circumstances. The number of

species is too great for any responsible professional to make this

generalization. Cleaning has been debated and discussed ad nauseum on this

group, I won't go there - yet, for now!

The statement " no special mask is needed " for the not toxic mold is simply

DANGEROUS.

I recommend that anyone with a risk of illness or symptoms or excessive exposure

to ANY mold should wear an N-100 fitted respirator; if not available or if not

possible because of physical limitations (should be fitted) then at the least

wear an N-100 disposable (e.g., from 3M; they cost few quarters more than the

N-95, but fit 10 times better, are very comfortable, allow more range of

movement and activity, and do a much better job at protecting your body). (yes,

the leading govt recommendations state N-95, but that is due to complex

decision-making that I don't want to go into, so just wear the N-100, you'll be

better off for it.)

I would NEVER differentiate between some ill-defined " toxic " mold and any other.

The protection required, the cleanup methods, are the SAME. REGARDLESS of

species. PERIOD. No debate.

I can go further,and perhaps others on this list would like to hear about the

details of mold in house. For now, please re-read your statements, and please

make sure to validate them before you make them public again.

Please, if you are not a specialist in the field, or if you do not have the

documentation to back up your statements (readily available for review and/or

distribution) do not comment. More importantly, please do not put yourself out

there as an educator or consultant providing helpful information. I believe you

stated you were a chemist, I hope you know not to step outside your field of

expertise, if by nothing more, then your profession's code of ethics. (I follow

the AIHA code for industrial hygienists.)

Thank You,

Armour, M.S. Environmental and Occupational Health

Director, Cleveland Chapter of the IAQA

For those who didn't see it, wrote the following:

>

> However, the mold genre needs to be determined. There are two types of black

mold.

>

> The one that is truly ugly is called " Black Mold " as a formal name.

> The other one is what lay people will see every day in most bathrooms.

>

> They are not the same. Far different.

>

> The every day mold that are small black dots can be cleaned off with

> scrubbing with soapy water, or clorox, if you must. No special face

> mask is needed for this every day type of black colored mold.

>

As the cost difference is huge, you better be sure which you have.

> WARNING: Black Mold has deadly spores. Do not inhale them.

>

> Black Mold is mostly a northern mid west of the USA issue.

>

>

> http://www.google. com/search? q=black+mold

>

[Guest guest]

My stachy mold was white powdery. Of course there were many other molds also.

>

> ,

> I really need to correct and comment on your misinformed statements and

sweeping generalizations. (see below signature for an excerpt of

[Guest guest]

Yes, stachy was found in my home airborne.

 

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

________________________________

From: <brianc8452@...>

Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2009 1:13:26 PM

Subject: Re: [] Re: Mold Misinformation - was Alek, Run to Home

Depot

 

One more comment. You state that it's difficult for stachy to become airborne. I

want to add----stachy has been found in air tests, so it can and sometimes does

become airborne.

____________ _________ _________ __

From: " scottarmour@ att.net " <scottarmour@ att.net>

Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2009 7:50:48 AM

Subject: [] Re: Mold Misinformation - was Alek, Run to Home Depot

,

I really need to correct and comment on your misinformed statements and sweeping

generalizations. (see below signature for an excerpt of his statements).

This kind of authoratative sounding provision of information is typical of the

primary reason our industry (indoor environmental health and hygiene) is in such

a mess. In a word, Misinformation.

First, there are NOT two types of " black mold " . There are perhaps hundreds, in

perhaps dozen or more genera.

If you would take a quick look at a good mycology text, you will find that just

the Aspergillus genus alone may have dozens of species characterized as black;

and not just simply black, but a range of black: greenish-black, bluish-black,

reddish-black, brownish-black, whitish-black (oops, that would be gray, right?).

A.niger grows pure black as black comes. I have seen typically black Aspergillus

that were mustard yellow, or fuschia, or blood-red; specific culture showed

these unusual growths to be Aspergillus species. The mycologists do not have an

explanation for this unusual condition.

How about the fact that the infamous and inappropriately named " black mold " ,

Stachybotrys (atra or chartarum, or other sp; aka 'stachy') can grow pure white.

Yes, this is true, ask a mycologist who has cultured it under different

conditions.

The new, fast growing mycelia are white, and as they age, they become black.

Some have characterized Stachy as 'slimey black'. Do you know why? It is NOT

because it appears to the naked eye as slimy. It was an error in reporting

during the initial Cleveland hemosiderosis investigation; the scientists

reported that the Stachy was black and slimy. The popular press and less

knowledgable of the public health and medical community took this to be the

macro description, not the micro. It is called sticky because the spores have a

fine layer of " slime " which makes them sticky; hence, it is difficult to become

airborn, where it is too dry to germinate; Stachy likes to stay where the water

is. The stickiness allows it to do this (isn't biology amazing!).

There is no scientific description of ANY mold species (that I have ever seen)

that includes the word 'slimy'. You will find fuzzy, cottony, sooty, etc. But

never slimy. Think about it, ALL mold looks slimy when wet or submerged in

liquid water. But when grown above, on a surface, it has characteristics more

like dry material than wet.

The statement that 'black mold has deadly spores' is also irresponsible and

likely not accurate. You are more likely to die (by a factor or two) from a

pathogenic mold than from your ill-defined toxic mold. Period. This is not

debatable, it is medical and epidemiological fact.

Then, to state this un-named 'toxic black mold' is a north/west phenomenon is

also irresponsible as it is incorrect. If you mean the S.c. species, this mold

is found ANYWHERE there is sufficient water and appropriate temperatures, such

as indoors with slow chronic leaks, or after sewage or river flooding, where

there is excess organic debris in the flood water and where the conditions

remain wet for many many days (preferably more than 10, upwards of 21 or more).

The mold you find in most bathrooms: again, what misinformation, or better,

misrepresentation of the facts. I find many genus and many more species growing

in similar conditions; as should any reputable hygienist or environmental

scientist properly trained to sample and characterize a given environment.

Cleaning " everyday " mold with soap and water and clorox? What, please tell me,

is " everyday " mold? There is no such thing. There is mold that is found

frequently under similar conditions, like showers. But that does not make it any

different than the rare mold found under unusual circumstances. The number of

species is too great for any responsible professional to make this

generalization. Cleaning has been debated and discussed ad nauseum on this

group, I won't go there - yet, for now!

The statement " no special mask is needed " for the not toxic mold is simply

DANGEROUS.

I recommend that anyone with a risk of illness or symptoms or excessive exposure

to ANY mold should wear an N-100 fitted respirator; if not available or if not

possible because of physical limitations (should be fitted) then at the least

wear an N-100 disposable (e.g., from 3M; they cost few quarters more than the

N-95, but fit 10 times better, are very comfortable, allow more range of

movement and activity, and do a much better job at protecting your body). (yes,

the leading govt recommendations state N-95, but that is due to complex

decision-making that I don't want to go into, so just wear the N-100, you'll be

better off for it.)

I would NEVER differentiate between some ill-defined " toxic " mold and any other.

The protection required, the cleanup methods, are the SAME. REGARDLESS of

species. PERIOD. No debate.

I can go further,and perhaps others on this list would like to hear about the

details of mold in house. For now, please re-read your statements, and please

make sure to validate them before you make them public again.

Please, if you are not a specialist in the field, or if you do not have the

documentation to back up your statements (readily available for review and/or

distribution) do not comment. More importantly, please do not put yourself out

there as an educator or consultant providing helpful information. I believe you

stated you were a chemist, I hope you know not to step outside your field of

expertise, if by nothing more, then your profession's code of ethics. (I follow

the AIHA code for industrial hygienists.)

Thank You,

Armour, M.S. Environmental and Occupational Health

Director, Cleveland Chapter of the IAQA

For those who didn't see it, wrote the following:

>

> However, the mold genre needs to be determined. There are two types of black

mold.

>

> The one that is truly ugly is called " Black Mold " as a formal name.

> The other one is what lay people will see every day in most bathrooms.

>

> They are not the same. Far different.

>

> The every day mold that are small black dots can be cleaned off with

> scrubbing with soapy water, or clorox, if you must. No special face

> mask is needed for this every day type of black colored mold.

>

As the cost difference is huge, you better be sure which you have.

> WARNING: Black Mold has deadly spores. Do not inhale them.

>

> Black Mold is mostly a northern mid west of the USA issue.

>

>

> http://www.google. com/search? q=black+mold

>

[Guest guest]

:

You are a professional after me own heart. Very accurate and direct.

If ever wants to see what color mold is when it is eating away at the

human brain have him visit Google: " Cerebral Aspergillosis Images. " There are

plenty of human diseases, esp., respiratory ailments influenced directly by

being unprotected/exposed over time in highly contaminated environments from

mycotoxin producing pathogenic molds, poly-ultra-fine particulates, soot and

diesel molecules, and other mold-produced or correlated organic and/or

inorganically-produced. Cancer, esp., related to Aflatoxin B1 activity in

correlation with genetic DNA/RNA strands has been well-studied and verified in

medical literature since the early 1960s. Those who are most affected are of

course seniors, the very young age 2 and younger, people with autoimmune health

issues, and the chronically ill. This is not to say that people with healthy

immune systems are immune by any means. However, when working to clean or

sanitize any room or area of mold colonization/or suspected colonization, by all

means wear protection such as a quality high efficiency particulate air (HEPA)

mask with with replaceable filters, at a minimum latex allergenic gloves, and

protective (environmentally safe) such as a EV Tyvek suit. One factor about

pathogenic molds/produced secondary chemical mycotoxins is that they can quickly

become unhealthy for human biological systems because they are very genetically,

structurally, and chemically close to formed/forming human cells (nucleated

eukaryotes), even though they structually appear plant-like, which they are NOT

plant-life in any way... that is precisely why they, molds, have their own

" Kingdom Fungi " . Some molds are so brazen that they can exist in a dormant

capacity for literally millions of years without much nutrient or humidity

effect. Unlike prokaryote (non-nucleated) bacteria, the human body does not

readily connect molds less than 1-5 microns in size as pathogenic or harmful to

the lungs until they begin to colonize and gain strength in numbers. Almost all

molds can have some adverse effect on the human body, however, thankfully only a

very few are truly pathogenic in nature. Also, most molds are

environmental-stress related in their reactivity process in producing unhealthy

mycotoxins-- meaning that in someway they have to be disturbed-- that is why it

is so important to wear protective gear when working with medium to very large

areas of their presence.

If you ever want to test the unhealthy relationship between molds, their

mycotoxins and humans, drink a beer or use tobacco. How many deaths a year are

related to both respectively?

R. Haney,

Environmental-Health Projects

_Haney52@...

From: scottarmour@...

Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2009 14:50:48 +0000

Subject: [] Re: Mold Misinformation - was Alek, Run to Home Depot

,

I really need to correct and comment on your misinformed statements and sweeping

generalizations. (see below signature for an excerpt of his statements).

This kind of authoratative sounding provision of information is typical of the

primary reason our industry (indoor environmental health and hygiene) is in such

a mess. In a word, Misinformation.

First, there are NOT two types of " black mold " . There are perhaps hundreds, in

perhaps dozen or more genera.

If you would take a quick look at a good mycology text, you will find that just

the Aspergillus genus alone may have dozens of species characterized as black;

and not just simply black, but a range of black: greenish-black, bluish-black,

reddish-black, brownish-black, whitish-black (oops, that would be gray, right?).

A.niger grows pure black as black comes. I have seen typically black Aspergillus

that were mustard yellow, or fuschia, or blood-red; specific culture showed

these unusual growths to be Aspergillus species. The mycologists do not have an

explanation for this unusual condition.

How about the fact that the infamous and inappropriately named " black mold " ,

Stachybotrys (atra or chartarum, or other sp; aka 'stachy') can grow pure white.

Yes, this is true, ask a mycologist who has cultured it under different

conditions.

The new, fast growing mycelia are white, and as they age, they become black.

Some have characterized Stachy as 'slimey black'. Do you know why? It is NOT

because it appears to the naked eye as slimy. It was an error in reporting

during the initial Cleveland hemosiderosis investigation; the scientists

reported that the Stachy was black and slimy. The popular press and less

knowledgable of the public health and medical community took this to be the

macro description, not the micro. It is called sticky because the spores have a

fine layer of " slime " which makes them sticky; hence, it is difficult to become

airborn, where it is too dry to germinate; Stachy likes to stay where the water

is. The stickiness allows it to do this (isn't biology amazing!).

There is no scientific description of ANY mold species (that I have ever seen)

that includes the word 'slimy'. You will find fuzzy, cottony, sooty, etc. But

never slimy. Think about it, ALL mold looks slimy when wet or submerged in

liquid water. But when grown above, on a surface, it has characteristics more

like dry material than wet.

The statement that 'black mold has deadly spores' is also irresponsible and

likely not accurate. You are more likely to die (by a factor or two) from a

pathogenic mold than from your ill-defined toxic mold. Period. This is not

debatable, it is medical and epidemiological fact.

Then, to state this un-named 'toxic black mold' is a north/west phenomenon is

also irresponsible as it is incorrect. If you mean the S.c. species, this mold

is found ANYWHERE there is sufficient water and appropriate temperatures, such

as indoors with slow chronic leaks, or after sewage or river flooding, where

there is excess organic debris in the flood water and where the conditions

remain wet for many many days (preferably more than 10, upwards of 21 or more).

The mold you find in most bathrooms: again, what misinformation, or better,

misrepresentation of the facts. I find many genus and many more species growing

in similar conditions; as should any reputable hygienist or environmental

scientist properly trained to sample and characterize a given environment.

Cleaning " everyday " mold with soap and water and clorox? What, please tell me,

is " everyday " mold? There is no such thing. There is mold that is found

frequently under similar conditions, like showers. But that does not make it any

different than the rare mold found under unusual circumstances. The number of

species is too great for any responsible professional to make this

generalization. Cleaning has been debated and discussed ad nauseum on this

group, I won't go there - yet, for now!

The statement " no special mask is needed " for the not toxic mold is simply

DANGEROUS.

I recommend that anyone with a risk of illness or symptoms or excessive exposure

to ANY mold should wear an N-100 fitted respirator; if not available or if not

possible because of physical limitations (should be fitted) then at the least

wear an N-100 disposable (e.g., from 3M; they cost few quarters more than the

N-95, but fit 10 times better, are very comfortable, allow more range of

movement and activity, and do a much better job at protecting your body). (yes,

the leading govt recommendations state N-95, but that is due to complex

decision-making that I don't want to go into, so just wear the N-100, you'll be

better off for it.)

I would NEVER differentiate between some ill-defined " toxic " mold and any other.

The protection required, the cleanup methods, are the SAME. REGARDLESS of

species. PERIOD. No debate.

I can go further,and perhaps others on this list would like to hear about the

details of mold in house. For now, please re-read your statements, and please

make sure to validate them before you make them public again.

Please, if you are not a specialist in the field, or if you do not have the

documentation to back up your statements (readily available for review and/or

distribution) do not comment. More importantly, please do not put yourself out

there as an educator or consultant providing helpful information. I believe you

stated you were a chemist, I hope you know not to step outside your field of

expertise, if by nothing more, then your profession's code of ethics. (I follow

the AIHA code for industrial hygienists.)

Thank You,

Armour, M.S. Environmental and Occupational Health

Director, Cleveland Chapter of the IAQA

For those who didn't see it, wrote the following:

>

> However, the mold genre needs to be determined. There are two types of black

mold.

>

> The one that is truly ugly is called " Black Mold " as a formal name.

> The other one is what lay people will see every day in most bathrooms.

>

> They are not the same. Far different.

>

> The every day mold that are small black dots can be cleaned off with

> scrubbing with soapy water, or clorox, if you must. No special face

> mask is needed for this every day type of black colored mold.

>

As the cost difference is huge, you better be sure which you have.

> WARNING: Black Mold has deadly spores. Do not inhale them.

>

> Black Mold is mostly a northern mid west of the USA issue.

>

>

> http://www.google.com/search?q=black+mold

>

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[Guest guest]

,

We also had Stachy in our air samples.

On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 1:13 PM, <brianc8452@...> wrote:

>

>

> One more comment. You state that it's difficult for stachy to become

> airborne. I want to add----stachy has been found in air tests, so it can and

> sometimes does become airborne.

>

> ________________________________

> From: " scottarmour@... <scottarmour%40att.net> "

<scottarmour@...<scottarmour%40att.net>

> >

> <%40>

> Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2009 7:50:48 AM

> Subject: [] Re: Mold Misinformation - was Alek, Run to Home

> Depot

>

>

> ,

> I really need to correct and comment on your misinformed statements and

> sweeping generalizations. (see below signature for an excerpt of his

> statements).

>

> This kind of authoratative sounding provision of information is typical of

> the primary reason our industry (indoor environmental health and hygiene) is

> in such a mess. In a word, Misinformation.

>

[Guest guest]

Dear List Members,

I have replied to privately, and cc'ed the list owners.

However, a public reply is needed given the nature of 's

reply to a post of mine. I will not be specific here only to

say half his paragraphs did not relate to anything I posted.

The other half of his paragraphs I disagree with them all.

Have a nice day.

-p

..

[Guest guest]

A comment on the comments. was simply stating that stachybotrys spores

are, keyword, difficult to become airborne. Not impossible. Usually if

stachybotrys is airborne then the is a large colony of stachbotrys somewhere or

it is just in the right place (ie. A coil of HVAC or other similar location) at

the right time. In a number of the cases that myself and Dr. Close have

encountered there have been Stachbotry spores in the spore trap samples taken.

So I suppose to defend , or rather to clarify his point; While Stachybotrys

spores may be less likely to become airborne, it is not impossible and has

happened where there are large colonies or properly placed colonies of

Stachybortys.

>

> One more comment. You state that it's difficult for stachy to become

airborne. I want to add----stachy has been found in air tests, so it can and

sometimes does become airborne.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Pete, Thanks for following the group rules on complaints going direct to

person and not to group. It's a difficult thing to do.

>

> Dear List Members,

>

> I have replied to privately, and cc'ed the list owners.

>

> However, a public reply is needed given the nature of 's

> reply to a post of mine. I will not be specific here only to

> say half his paragraphs did not relate to anything I posted.

> The other half of his paragraphs I disagree with them all.

>

> Have a nice day.

>

> -p

[Guest guest]

,

I too have touched Stachy, and have grown it on agar plates. Although, I admit,

I don't really make a habit of touching mold, and actually don't see that much

Stachy. And it is often already in a dry environment (after flood or leak). I

never thought of it as slimy to the touch. I don't know why you would feel

slimy-ness. Perhaps water retention; as I stated, all mold will appear slimy

when wet.

If you mean sticky, maybe that is correct, I never noticed that.

I have also heard in recent years people claim that Stachy is greenish black;

that is also something I have not noticed. I look at mold closely, and notice

slight differences in color and texture but did not ever call Stachy 'greenish'

black. Maybe substrate effect.

Again, this stuff we call mold is a very unknown life form; we have really only

just begun studying it and trying to understand it. If I didn't know better, I

would claim it was an alien life form, intelligent enough to figure out how to

colonize our entire planet, under every environmental condition, able to adapt

to an extremely wide variety of foods and nutrients, and able to survive long,

very long periods of inhospitable environments in dormant state. It knows how to

change growth pattern rapidly when conditions change, i.e,. drying out causes

rapid sporolation in many species, in order to assure future survival of the

genes by producing the reproductive long lasting spores that can travel far from

the rapidly changing inhospitable environment.

I had a world famous microbiologist remind me once that mold is so unknown, and

can likely mutate so quickly to 'eat' what is available, that I should not be

surprised to find viable Stachy spores buried deep in rock wool insulation

(mineral based material not organic) after two years of very dry conditions.

Somehow, somewhere, that mold figured out how to grow, propogate and disseminate

itself to survive the future.

Armour, M.S., Environmental and Occupational Health

Director, Cleveland Chapter of IAQA

[Guest guest]

,

Remember, it is all relative. When I say difficult, that is compared to other

species.

E.g., When I find 500 spores/M of Stachy,(spore count/cubic meter of air), I

react as if it were thousands or 10's of thousands of a Pen or Asp species.

Meaning, there is a VERY serious issue that is causing not only the growth and

propogation of the Stachy species, but ALSO a condition that is causing it to

become airborn.

I consider low double digits to be indicative of a problem environment with

Stachy worthy of continued investigation to the source (if not already found by

the visual inspection). Single digit concentrations of Stachy spores mean, to

me, typically a left over clean up or some outdoor presence that may have come

indoors.

If one finds thousands of Stachy, I usually can conclude, and prove, that the

growth had been disturbed. Left in it's normal state, the airborn concentrations

are typically a factor or two (10x to 100x) lower than other airborn species.

S

[Guest guest]

LINDA!

You are the ONLY other person I have met that has had white Stachy growth, other

than in cultured lab samples.

Do you have any photos still? What were the conditions, etc. I'd love to add

your case to my references.

Thank You,

[Guest guest]

Yea I still have photos from when I was handling a lawsuit by myself. Worked on

it for over a year back ten years ago. It was in the paneling down in the

basement. The foundation outside was cracked around the entire house from tree

roots. So it would get wet and dry and wet and dry perfect conditions for

stachy. I never saw water or anything. Just started getting ill and could smell

something funky when I would go out for hours and return. I never heard of it

back then. I didn't sue because of the mold-- but how I was treated when I

reported it and then moved to another mold place. I sent the samples to P & K

Laborabories which is a good lab.

>

> ,

>

> I've found white Stachy several times. Very rare but possible.

>