Re: HVAC Air Purification Systems /Carl

[Guest guest]

I had Blue Air filters at home, I liked them because they have a super

super quiet setting but I'm not sure if they are MCS friendly.

Dr. Gray recommended Austin Air Health Mate and we have that now in our

temporary rental unit. It is not as quiet. My son's other doctor says

that Austin Air doesn't independently test their air filters so you

don't have an independent assessment of how well they work. I will have

to ask that doctor what brands they recommend.

At home we also have a Trane central air heater w/hepa filter, you can

turn the fan on to filter independent of the heat being on.

I have read conflicting info on central hepa filtration systems & the

stand alone units for each room, some " experts " seem to think one or the

other is best and that the other doesn't work...

that's my 3 cents sue

>I would be most interested as to what choice of HVAC air purification

>system the group could recommend. We have had a Air Bear on ours. We

>have no carpeting and have wittled the Vocs down to very minimum however

>we really want to try to purify and revitilize our homes air especially

>since I have MCS and am inside all the time. I have been doing a lot of

>research and even tried out a unit from our Heating and Cooling people

>who are going to come in and redue duckwork it was called " HEALTHY

>CLIMATE " it is a no go as I am reacting to carbon filter in it. Really

>would appreciate what you could tell me. We have looked at the ones with

>a Catalylst in them. Many are saying. Don't spend the money get separate

>room filters or use UVL's. Also that makes me think I should and need to

>ask. With all the choices out there I just get more confused and

>frustrated. I would especially like to hear what Mr. Grimes thinks, as

>he seems to be wealth of information.

>

[Guest guest]

I think the space air cleaners work well as room air cleaners, the smaller the

room the better. I put a MERV 16 filter on my furnace. I change it twice a

year. It costs over a 100.00 per filter. It's not a hepa but close to it...but

I did not move. I cleaned up a foundation mold problem I had and stayed. I

believe you need a variable speed blower to put a tight filter on furnace, or

you need to just filter a 'portion' of air, like a third of something like that,

a HVAC person would have to help you figure it out, so every turn of air, you

super clean a third of the air, eventually it all gets cleaner. My house

probably isn't as clean as it needs to be for me but I feel so, so much better

than I used to, and better than many other places I go, hotels, or restaurants,

etc. I have a Health Mate for my bedroom. I like the whirling noise it makes.

It's kind of a white noise that blocks other noises when I sleep, but I've

always liked sleeping with something going, like a fan, etc. I had a friend

stay with me that put the fan I had in the hall away from her room because she

couldn't take the noise of fan, so I think it's a matter of what you are used

to.

>

> I had Blue Air filters at home, I liked them because they have a super

> super quiet setting but I'm not sure if they are MCS friendly.

>

> Dr. Gray recommended Austin Air Health Mate and we have that now in our

> temporary rental unit. It is not as quiet.

[Guest guest]

Healthy Climate is Lennox I believe. I have a Lennox furnace and it has a space

for a deep 5 inch filter and I upgraded the one that came with it to the MERV

16, which you might ask about. It's just a filter, no carbon.

On the Austin Air I have it had a carbon cartridge in it but had a sweet carbon

smell. I wasn't sure I wanted that, so I changed it out for their Hega, that is

cheaper and has a carbon cloth instead of loose powder and I can't detect any

'carbon odor'.

>

> I would be most interested as to what choice of HVAC air purification system

the group could recommend. We have had a Air Bear on ours. We have no carpeting

and have wittled the Vocs down to very minimum however we really want to try to

purify and revitilize our homes air especially since I have MCS and am inside

all the time. I have been doing a lot of research and even tried out a unit from

our Heating and Cooling people who are going to come in and redue duckwork it

was called " HEALTHY CLIMATE " it is a no go as I am reacting to carbon filter in

it.

[Guest guest]

Others have already given you most of the information you need

but since you specifically asked my opinion so I'll respond.

1. Jeff May knows as much or more than I do about filtration so,

Jeff, if you're reading this let the group know the rest of us may

have missed.

2. The Air Bear is made at different MERV ratings. Which do you

use? MERV 13 is bout the highest you want to go especially if

you have air conditioning and live in a humid climate. Barb

mentioned she had a MERV 16 so either her blower is stronger

than most or there probably is leakage around the edges or it is

deeper than 1 " .

3. 3M Filtrete also make MERV 13 filters but they aren't as deep

as the 5 " Air Bear. What the extra 5 " gives you is two things: One

is the ability to go to a higher MERV rating because the increased

area of the filter doesn't create as much resistance to the airflow.

The other is it will last longer before it gets clogged and you have

to replace it.

4. The reason some people say HVAC or room purifiers don't

work is because they don't understand what each is capable of

doing and not doing. You have to match the ability of the device

to what you need.

5. Whole house systems that connect to the furnace and are

HEPA filters are the ones Barb mentioned that filter only about a

third of the air but if kept running eventually reduce all the air.

They are about $800 to $2000 plus installation depending on

what size you need. They can be very effective and I used to

recommend them as first choice. But if the ducts aren't clean,

which means they also don't have insulation inside the ducting,

then any filter is like blowing air over a dirt pile. Which is what you

do when you have dirty ducts. Get them cleaned professionally

according to NADCA ACR2006 or the ANSI-ACCA 6 standards.

6. The room purifiers have their own rating system based on air

exchanges per hour (ACH) and the Clean Air Delivery Rate

(CADR) both of which will be on the box. You want at least 6

ACH but the more the better. However, the higher the ACH the

bigger and faster the motor and thus more noise. Get one with a

CADR of at least 80-120. 200 to 300 is better but more

expensive. Anything below about 60 is usually a waste of money.

As an example, the electrostatic types without a fan and the

ozone " so called " purifiers are typically unrated, but when tested

in labs during development of CADR they only measured in the

20s. Yet they often cost more than the higher CADR units. In

other words you'll paying for a Porsche but getting a bicycle.

7. In my opinion, the differences in brands have mostly to do with

size, noise, cost of filter replacement, and whether they give off

odors or chemicals which you can't tolerate.

I know this is a lot of detail but is what I consider the fundamental

information required to begin evaluating specific units for your

need. Plus, listen to what others have already said here because

they can add additional real life experience.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

I would be most interested as to what choice of HVAC air purification

system the group could recommend. We have had a Air Bear on ours. We

have no carpeting and have wittled the Vocs down to very minimum

however we really want to try to purify and revitilize our homes air

especially since I have MCS and am inside all the time. I have been doing

a lot of research and even tried out a unit from our Heating and Cooling

people who are going to come in and redue duckwork it was called

" HEALTHY CLIMATE " it is a no go as I am reacting to carbon filter in it.

Really would appreciate what you could tell me. We have looked at the

ones with a Catalylst in them. Many are saying. Don't spend the money

get separate room filters or use UVL's. Also that makes me think I should

and need to ask. With all the choices out there I just get more confused

and frustrated. I would especially like to hear what Mr. Grimes thinks, as

he seems to be wealth of information.

[Guest guest]

Carl,

You've said it all!

I would just emphasize the problem with using the central system to " clean " the

air.

No matter how efficient the filter is, if there are allergens or irritants in

the system after the filter, the rating of the filter is irrelevant and you will

still have IAQ problems because the clean air will pick up problematic

particulates.

So for just cleaning the air, I prefer to see " unducted " air filters (portable)

for this reason, but only after source removal (i.e. cleaning HVAC systems,

removing contaminated carpets, etc.)

For me, the most important purpose of filtration to to keep the AC coil clean,

as this is the most common cause of HVAC-created mold problems.

See: <http://www.mayindoorair.com/presentations/nafa-sf-08-new.pdf>

Barb, you're right about charcoal. I've actually seen charcoal particles in the

air from these filters.

May

<www.mayindoorair.com>

>

> Others have already given you most of the information you need

> but since you specifically asked my opinion so I'll respond.

>

> 1. Jeff May knows as much or more than I do about filtration so,

> Jeff, if you're reading this let the group know the rest of us may

> have missed.

>

> 2. The Air Bear is made at different MERV ratings. Which do you

> use? MERV 13 is bout the highest you want to go especially if

> you have air conditioning and live in a humid climate. Barb

> mentioned she had a MERV 16 so either her blower is stronger

> than most or there probably is leakage around the edges or it is

> deeper than 1 " .

>

> 3. 3M Filtrete also make MERV 13 filters but they aren't as deep

> as the 5 " Air Bear. What the extra 5 " gives you is two things: One

> is the ability to go to a higher MERV rating because the increased

> area of the filter doesn't create as much resistance to the airflow.

> The other is it will last longer before it gets clogged and you have

> to replace it.

>

> 4. The reason some people say HVAC or room purifiers don't

> work is because they don't understand what each is capable of

> doing and not doing. You have to match the ability of the device

> to what you need.

>

> 5. Whole house systems that connect to the furnace and are

> HEPA filters are the ones Barb mentioned that filter only about a

> third of the air but if kept running eventually reduce all the air.

> They are about $800 to $2000 plus installation depending on

> what size you need. They can be very effective and I used to

> recommend them as first choice. But if the ducts aren't clean,

> which means they also don't have insulation inside the ducting,

> then any filter is like blowing air over a dirt pile. Which is what you

> do when you have dirty ducts. Get them cleaned professionally

> according to NADCA ACR2006 or the ANSI-ACCA 6 standards.

>

> 6. The room purifiers have their own rating system based on air

> exchanges per hour (ACH) and the Clean Air Delivery Rate

> (CADR) both of which will be on the box. You want at least 6

> ACH but the more the better. However, the higher the ACH the

> bigger and faster the motor and thus more noise. Get one with a

> CADR of at least 80-120. 200 to 300 is better but more

> expensive. Anything below about 60 is usually a waste of money.

> As an example, the electrostatic types without a fan and the

> ozone " so called " purifiers are typically unrated, but when tested

> in labs during development of CADR they only measured in the

> 20s. Yet they often cost more than the higher CADR units. In

> other words you'll paying for a Porsche but getting a bicycle.

>

> 7. In my opinion, the differences in brands have mostly to do with

> size, noise, cost of filter replacement, and whether they give off

> odors or chemicals which you can't tolerate.

>

> I know this is a lot of detail but is what I consider the fundamental

> information required to begin evaluating specific units for your

> need. Plus, listen to what others have already said here because

> they can add additional real life experience.

>

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

[Guest guest]

Yes, the filter I have is a 5 inch, and it was offered as an upgrade to my

furnace system. I had to replace the 45 year old furnace I had here and got one

that could handle this tight filter. My old furnace could only take a one inch

and not a high MERV rating.

>

> The Air Bear is made at different MERV ratings. Which do you

> use? MERV 13 is bout the highest you want to go especially if

> you have air conditioning and live in a humid climate. Barb

> mentioned she had a MERV 16 so either her blower is stronger

> than most or there probably is leakage around the edges or it is

> deeper than 1 " .

>

[Guest guest]

The key to to the fiter is pore size. One must check out the pore size of the

HEPA filter. The remainder is the use of a good filter as well as carbon

column. I am not into air purification system, therefore I can only suggest

that the HEPA filter is critical.

Jack-Dwayne: Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Off: 916-745-4703

Cell: 575-937-1150

L. Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

916-745-4703 - Off

775-309-3994 - Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this message

(and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly prohibited

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served, please destroy the original message contents. If you have received this

message in error, please reply immediately to advise the sender of the

miscommunication and then delete the message and any copies you have printed.

Thank you in advance for your compliance.

[Guest guest]

Hi, Jeff. I looked at your slides. You have seen some bad mold situations. Do

you always wear personal protective gear when you go into any of these homes,

schools or businesses?

________________________________

From: jmhiaq <jeff@...>

Sent: Sun, December 13, 2009 6:46:01 AM

Subject: [] Re: HVAC Air Purification Systems /Carl

Carl,

You've said it all!

I would just emphasize the problem with using the central system to " clean " the

air.

No matter how efficient the filter is, if there are allergens or irritants in

the system after the filter, the rating of the filter is irrelevant and you will

still have IAQ problems because the clean air will pick up problematic

particulates.

So for just cleaning the air, I prefer to see " unducted " air filters (portable)

for this reason, but only after source removal (i.e. cleaning HVAC systems,

removing contaminated carpets, etc.)

For me, the most important purpose of filtration to to keep the AC coil clean,

as this is the most common cause of HVAC-created mold problems.

See: <http://www.mayindoorair.com/presentations/nafa-sf-08-new.pdf>

Barb, you're right about charcoal. I've actually seen charcoal particles in the

air from these filters.

May

<www.mayindoorair. com>

[Guest guest]

,

Absolutely. I carry 3M or Gerson NIOSH-N95 double-strap masks wherever I go;

these are usually sufficient but in particularly moldy crawl spaces or

basements, I use a half-face N95 or P100 respirator.

I don't wear gogggles and occasionally my eyes get itchy but this has not been

much of a problem.

Investigating homes, wearing any mask is never an issue, as hoemowners

understand if they are having IAQ difficulties; in schools and offices, it can

be challenging, since occupants can be disturbed when someone in their

environment is breathing the same air but needs a mask.

I only wear protective clothing in crawl spaces. To avoid contaminating one

environemnt with spores from another, I change work clothing frequently.

I have started a blog (below) and welcome questions (though it may take me a

while to figure out how to use it).

May

May Indoor Air Investigations LLC

www.mayindoorair.com/blog

>

> Hi, Jeff. I looked at your slides. You have seen some bad mold situations.

Do you always wear personal protective gear when you go into any of these homes,

schools or businesses?

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Jeff. Glad to hear you have safety procedures. As you know, there are

many unscrupulous mold " experts " out there who don't do tests correctly and

don't use protective equipment. Thanks for the link to your new blog. I will

check it out.

________________________________

From: jmhiaq <jeff@...>

Sent: Sun, December 13, 2009 11:53:22 AM

Subject: [] Re: HVAC Air Purification Systems /Carl

,

Absolutely. I carry 3M or Gerson NIOSH-N95 double-strap masks wherever I go;

these are usually sufficient but in particularly moldy crawl spaces or

basements, I use a half-face N95 or P100 respirator.

I don't wear gogggles and occasionally my eyes get itchy but this has not been

much of a problem.

Investigating homes, wearing any mask is never an issue, as hoemowners

understand if they are having IAQ difficulties; in schools and offices, it can

be challenging, since occupants can be disturbed when someone in their

environment is breathing the same air but needs a mask.

I only wear protective clothing in crawl spaces. To avoid contaminating one

environemnt with spores from another, I change work clothing frequently.

I have started a blog (below) and welcome questions (though it may take me a

while to figure out how to use it).

May

May Indoor Air Investigations LLC

www.mayindoorair.com/blog

[Guest guest]

Thank You Mr. Grimes and the rest of the group for this valuable information.

Have a blessed Christmas season all!

>

> Others have already given you most of the information you need

> but since you specifically asked my opinion so I'll respond.

>

> 1. Jeff May knows as much or more than I do about filtration so,

> Jeff, if you're reading this let the group know the rest of us may

> have missed.

>