Guest guest Posted May 23, 2010 Report Share Posted May 23, 2010 Hi Connie, Probably nobody has looked under the cellulose. I certainly won't even go up there. It will be removed soon. The L/R ceiling starts to cave when it rains - no leaks in roof so I imagine cellulose is absorbing water. It's metal roof & it's so darn wet here. I'm sure it would cause a moisture problem if I insulated the roof itself. I really have a fear of vapor barriers too ...mold. Interior walls got wet at some point. It may have been a leak once or the wet insulation soaking the walls for years. I don't know what to do next. > > , > I have not been on the group's site in a while, so I do not know if your questions were answered. I was a little concerned when I read your comment about having no ventilation in your attic. Ventilation in the attic is not necessary if an adequate vapor barrier is present to prevent moisture migration from the living space into the attic. Vapor diffusion is a strong force and moist air will always seek dry areas. Since an average family of four produces approximately 15 liters of moisture per day, the absence of vapor barriers or ventilation to remove moisture can result in condensation in the attic space. Have you checked under the blown-in insulation to see if a vapor barrier is present? Also, if there are recessed lights, these should e caged and insulated with a vapor barrier to prevent moisture migration. I have some photos of good insulation practices for recessed lights. > > Installing an exhaust fan near the floor of the attic could pull moist air from the living space. > > I have seen many attics that are properly insulated without ventilation (often referred to as the " hot deck " method), two part foam is used to completely seal the attic. > > I know it can be costly, but consultation from a qualified licensed engineer with expertise in ventilation is well worth the costs. Buildings need to be viewed from multi-discipline approach. Far too often egos and ignorance get in the way of good advice. > > Connie Morbach M.S., CHMM, CIE > Sanit-Air, Inc. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2010 Report Share Posted May 23, 2010 , It sounds like a nightmare. I am so sorry you are experiencing this. I have never inspected a home in which the cellulose insulation absorbed enough moisture to cause caving of the ceiling. I still suspect that high humidity in the living space during the rains is causing the problem. Without a vapor barrier on the floor of the attic, vapor diffusion will drive moisture into the attic. If a vapor barrier is installed on top of the drywall ceiling (vapor barrier facing down), the amount of moisture traveling to the attic is minimized. In your case, I am wondering if there is a double vapor barrier (one on the top side of the drywall) and possibly another on a layer of fiberglass under the cellulose). Another possibility could be a vapor barrier installed incorrectly (facing upward under the cellulose). Are your HVAC ducts in the attic? If so and they are not insulated, this could be part of the problem. The existence of vapor barriers should be evaluated by a qualified individual. Perhaps you can have an inspection during the next rain, and also have the inspector collect a grab sample of cellulose insulation and put it in a plastic bag so that moisture can be checked. I have had many clients with moisture problems in attics. Poorly installed insulation and insufficient ventilation are common problems. Vapor barriers should not be frightening unless they are not installed properly. Connie Morbach, M.S., CHMM, CIE Sanit-Air, Inc. > > > > , > > I have not been on the group's site in a while, so I do not know if your questions were answered. I was a little concerned when I read your comment about having no ventilation in your attic. Ventilation in the attic is not necessary if an adequate vapor barrier is present to prevent moisture migration from the living space into the attic. Vapor diffusion is a strong force and moist air will always seek dry areas. Since an average family of four produces approximately 15 liters of moisture per day, the absence of vapor barriers or ventilation to remove moisture can result in condensation in the attic space. Have you checked under the blown-in insulation to see if a vapor barrier is present? Also, if there are recessed lights, these should e caged and insulated with a vapor barrier to prevent moisture migration. I have some photos of good insulation practices for recessed lights. > > > > Installing an exhaust fan near the floor of the attic could pull moist air from the living space. > > > > I have seen many attics that are properly insulated without ventilation (often referred to as the " hot deck " method), two part foam is used to completely seal the attic. > > > > I know it can be costly, but consultation from a qualified licensed engineer with expertise in ventilation is well worth the costs. Buildings need to be viewed from multi-discipline approach. Far too often egos and ignorance get in the way of good advice. > > > > Connie Morbach M.S., CHMM, CIE > > Sanit-Air, Inc. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 24, 2010 Report Share Posted May 24, 2010 No it isn't a job for a handyman. I have an insulation specialist. And true, my thoughts exactly, get that stuff out & see what's going on. He wanted to blow in fiberglass but I would rather nothing than some other fluff that hides problems. > > Vapor barriers installed correctly for the climate and building type can prevent mold. You need someone who knows how. But first you need appropriate remediation. Get the bad stuff out so they can see what's going on. From the way you have described the situation this not a job for a handyman or the inexperienced. > > Carl Grimes > Healthy Habitats LLC > (fm my Blackberry) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 24, 2010 Report Share Posted May 24, 2010 Hi Connie, As far as a vapor barrier existing I don't think so but it will be easier to be thorough when the fluff is gone. In Dec or so the cellulose was checked & damp. The ceiling sucked back up sometime in Jan. when I bought a wood stove - it dries the air considerably. There is no heating system & no ducts in the attic except the stove pipe...which dried out the place. I do not use the living room - I live in the kitchen. The only time I spent any time in the L/R was when the wood stove was lit. I do not tolerate the bare wood floor. It retained the fumes from the synthetic carpet ( & Carpet Fresh). (I'm very sensitive to chems.) The floors will be refinished once I figure out where to empty the house into. It seems that building firewood storage in essential & that will temorarily house things while I overhaul the house. > > , > It sounds like a nightmare. I am so sorry you are experiencing this. I have never inspected a home in which the cellulose insulation absorbed enough moisture to cause caving of the ceiling. I still suspect that high humidity in the living space during the rains is causing the problem. Without a vapor barrier on the floor of the attic, vapor diffusion will drive moisture into the attic. If a vapor barrier is installed on top of the drywall ceiling (vapor barrier facing down), the amount of moisture traveling to the attic is minimized. In your case, I am wondering if there is a double vapor barrier (one on the top side of the drywall) and possibly another on a layer of fiberglass under the cellulose). Another possibility could be a vapor barrier installed incorrectly (facing upward under the cellulose). > > Are your HVAC ducts in the attic? If so and they are not insulated, this could be part of the problem. > > The existence of vapor barriers should be evaluated by a qualified individual. Perhaps you can have an inspection during the next rain, and also have the inspector collect a grab sample of cellulose insulation and put it in a plastic bag so that moisture can be checked. > > I have had many clients with moisture problems in attics. Poorly installed insulation and insufficient ventilation are common problems. Vapor barriers should not be frightening unless they are not installed properly. > > Connie Morbach, M.S., CHMM, CIE > Sanit-Air, Inc. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 24, 2010 Report Share Posted May 24, 2010 Sometimes moisture travels up but sometimes it travels down. Air with air moisture travels *toward air with low moisture, so direction depends on where the humidity is. You could have high relative humidity outside in winter but in terms of actual humidity it is dry air, so air inside the house is more humid and is warmer so those both are high energy air and will travel toward cooler, drier air, so up and out of house with chimney effect. However in summer it reverses direction for most climates assuming summer is warmer and more humid than winter where you live, so attic air will move down into house. See the two sides of house, chimney stack effect is upside down in summer for most people. http://www.airsealers.com/ME2/Default.asp Connie, when you say vapor barrier on top of drywall, do you mean on room side of ceiling so facing an occupant, like plastic on the ceiling of a room? You wouldn't put it in the attic facing down would you? > > , > It sounds like a nightmare. I am so sorry you are experiencing this. I have never inspected a home in which the cellulose insulation absorbed enough moisture to cause caving of the ceiling. I still suspect that high humidity in the living space during the rains is causing the problem. Without a vapor barrier on the floor of the attic, vapor diffusion will drive moisture into the attic. If a vapor barrier is installed on top of the drywall ceiling (vapor barrier facing down), the amount of moisture traveling to the attic is minimized. In your case, I am wondering if there is a double vapor barrier (one on the top side of the drywall) and possibly another on a layer of fiberglass under the cellulose). Another possibility could be a vapor barrier installed incorrectly (facing upward under the cellulose). > > Are your HVAC ducts in the attic? If so and they are not insulated, this could be part of the problem. > > The existence of vapor barriers should be evaluated by a qualified individual. Perhaps you can have an inspection during the next rain, and also have the inspector collect a grab sample of cellulose insulation and put it in a plastic bag so that moisture can be checked. > > I have had many clients with moisture problems in attics. Poorly installed insulation and insufficient ventilation are common problems. Vapor barriers should not be frightening unless they are not installed properly. > > Connie Morbach, M.S., CHMM, CIE > Sanit-Air, Inc. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 24, 2010 Report Share Posted May 24, 2010 My house has no vapor barrier and was built in 1938 and has no vents and has no mold in attic, so in the case of how older houses are built like mine, it isn't necessary. I worry about it and ask everyone that goes up there and they say my attic is in good condition. I messed things up when I put attic vents in as a recommendation of a roofer. Then I developed moldy smelling house and got sick. Could never find the stuff but closing up the vents stops the air from mixing and I feel 90% better. Have some left over health problems, but nothing like I did. Could hardly hold my head up so tired all the time. Had a terrible rash I couldn't get rid of, which is gone since insulation was getting taken up in the extra air movement created by these vents. These codes are written for new buildings, and shouldn't be assumed to work with old building styles. Alot of people are probably sick because of this and don't know it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 25, 2010 Report Share Posted May 25, 2010 This thread has turned out very interesting. All the talk about proper vapor protection reminds me of my experiences eating high meat. If raw meat is allowed to get plenty of fresh air, and the flies are kept off it, and it does not get too hot, as it ages, it turns in to an intoxicating super-food, but, if the same raw meat is kept sealed in an air-tight container, anarobic bacteria form, which make the meat poisonous and smell like crap. Previous to modern times, houses did not have insulation, so plenty of fresh air was constantly circulating, and as long as the roof was kept up, things were fine. A big fire was constantly kept going, which made the inside-air very dry. Today, modern homes have a lot of insulation, little fresh air, and it's not as healthy. In the summer, the house air is maintained with A/C, which makes the air dry, but the attics are often vented. In my current house, the attic is vented very well, but it's humid outside, and when water seaped through the flashing and rotted out the roofing sheet, the mold get very bad when it rained, but dried out in a week. This wood had constant fresh air on one-side, but was semi-permeable on the other, and was wet, but so was my camper. Perhaps the difference being the ammount of time the roof leaked. Perhaps mold becomes much worse as the wood-rot stays moist longer. In my camper, the rain leaked in it's roof, and there was no bad mold problem. There were similar conditions w/ both, except for, perhaps building materials, location and length of time. The camper had litle insulation. This house has a lot of insulation. Fred's trailer had good insultation and it got very bad mold. The moldy victorian house had terrible insulation and it's mold was very bad (roof leak). The Nye Way cabin had good insulation, and had terrible mold (roof leak). Then, the new house I stayed in had no mold whatsoever, no roof leaks, a small stream of water flowing along-side it, on a dry, vapor-barriared crawl-space, well insulated, but never any leaks. Then the Carrboro house was newer, no leaks, great insulation and no mold, except for the nasty carpets, which I covered up w/ tarp (when eventually finished out-gassing). Then, the Berkshire manor west apartment had window sills that collected moisture and were spongy, and it's bathrooms had no windows, and it's fan was woefully inadequate to remove moisture from a nice hot bath, like the type of bath that relieves mold-induced headaches. Now there's a dilema. What do you do when only a nice HOT bath will relieve you of your mold-induced headaches, and the moisture from the bath only feeds the mold and makes it worse? What idiot decided to design an apartment so that the bathrooms have no windows above the baths, and the vents do not addequately ventilate the bath-tub steam? Now there's my mom's house, where there was a roof leak that was repaired. A section of rotted board was removed and replaced, however, there's still another section of roofing that is still rotted, but no new moisture will probably get to it, but I do not feel 100% better about this new setup, and we will see how it all handles the next rain. This house has super-attic ventalation. It's almost always on. It has a roof leak near the chimney flashing, plenty of insulation on the floor of the attic, and I do not know about a moisture barrier. The hosue is directly on cement on the ground. Do I not know about a moisture barrier, but probably not. insulation, breathing crawl-space, leaks, Bath-room window, dry-wall, carpeting, near water-body, age of house. The biggest determinator I can find, here, from my personal experience is a source of moisture, and how long that moisture has been working on that rotting wood. I have not experienced any problems with relative humidity, except for the times when I created a lot of steam, like bathing or cooking too much rice, and not having proper window-ventilation, or when the single-paned windows in the BMW apartment windows had so much moisture collect on their panes and run down to rot the sill. Those were major mold problems too. Just found this: " We remediated a 1900's colonial last summer.Wide planked hardwood floors with mushrooms growing between the slats.Floors were removed and mold found throughout subfloor. We find " fruiting bodies " coming out of brick quite frequently. " When I think about all my different scenarios, I conclude that the safer buildings were the newer ones that had no leaks whatsoever, or, the old camper, & single-wides, who's leaks were immediately fixed as they came up. The old houses who's leaks were tarred over, allowed to continue unfixed, painted over or simply concealed some-way had the worst mold problems. Inadequately vented bathrooms were a bad problem too. This is my experience. Also, carpeting makes things worse. Linoleum is OK. " Linoleum is also the perfect choice for the person looking for an environmentally-friendly material. Made of linseed oil, wood flour, and cork powder, linoleum doesn't emit any gasses and is biodegradable, making it one of the greenest flooring options currently available. Linoleum is also hypoallergenic, naturally resistant to bacteria, and antistatic, which means it repels dust and pollen. For people with asthma or allergies, linoleum is a perfect flooring choice. Linoleum is better suited for the foyer area or laundry room, as it is almost 100 percent waterproof and can be cleaned by damp mopping alone. " Linoleum is impervious to water and costs $6/sq foot. Vinyl is not nearly as good w/ water & costs $0.88/sq foot. Old trailers probably used good old linoleum as a base for the floor and built all cabinets, walls... on top of it, and then there's always a crawl-space under a trailer, and it's usually vented. They are almost always windows near the bathroom. The biggest flaw w/ old trailors is shoddy plubing work, and roof maintenance. If the plumbing is solid, and the roof is kept up, and the previous owners did not use it as a meth-house, or smoke crack, or cigarettes in it, then such a building could be perfect. I onced rented an old single-wide that had no mold, but I could detect toxins in the walls. I found a crack-pipe hidden in the bathroom eventually and later found out that it was previously occupied by a stripper. Often, desperate people will go for the cheapest thing available, which may be an old trailor, and sometimes, desperate people are desperate, because they spend all their good money of drugs & ciggarettes, and then infiltrate the walls and building materials with toxins. The problem w/ new houses is that either you have to be wealthy, which health-sensitive people are often NOT, or, you have to have room-mates, and people today, at least in this country, are just not as friendly and selfless as they used to be. We are living in an age of malignant narcissism. I've had roomies that treated me with respect, were truthful and kind. I've had bad ones too. Landlords cover the range too, but they are mostly crooks, from my experience. Beware the landlord's lean. Do they walk, talk, and stand crooked? I've had one who's hands were even crooked, and they all turned out to be crooks. One land-lord, Ted Wheeler, stood upright, owned a welding business, and had bright, beautiful eyes and he turned out to be a great landlord. Old country doctors teach that fresh air is an important part of getting and staying healthy, so what is one to do when it's freezing outside and the air is too cold to breath without the cold air making one sick, or bursting the pipes? I'd like to come up with plans for a little house, for chemical/mold sensitive people, that would be a survival-mode pod, not something to bring your guests to for tea, but something the body can recuperate in for 8 hours a night, while the body sleeps, with a perfectly pristine, immaculate environment, with fresh HEPA filtered, heated, moisture-controlled air that slowly circulates around the body. This sleeping-chamber can be vented from outside, far above the roof. This coffin-like space can be air-tight, except for it's ventilation system, which gets fresh air from the most pristine source possible. This chamber could be kept in a deep dug in pit, underground, and cov ered in such a way that most EM radiation is blocked out, including cancer-towers, or even that from nuclear fall-out. OK, so now I'm talking about the perfect fall-out shelter with a special sleeping-chamber, perhaps something anyone can build with proper plans. 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Guest guest Posted May 25, 2010 Report Share Posted May 25, 2010 I see your point. I guess I am surprised that the insulation could absorb enough moisture to cause sagging of the ceiling. The moist air should condense on a surface where dew point is reached. I am not sure this would happen on the top side of a ceiling with insulation on top. I would love to hear from anyone who has seen this happen. Being in a cold climate, I have not inspected many homes in warm climates. Connie Morbach, M.S., CHMM, CIE Sanit-Air, Inc. > > Sometimes moisture travels up but sometimes it travels down. Air with air moisture travels *toward air with low moisture, so direction depends on where the humidity is. You could have high relative humidity outside in winter but in terms of actual humidity it is dry air, so air inside the house is more humid and is warmer so those both are high energy air and will travel toward cooler, drier air, so up and out of house with chimney effect. However in summer it reverses direction for most climates assuming summer is warmer and more humid than winter where you live, so attic air will move down into house. > > See the two sides of house, chimney stack effect is upside down in summer for most people. > > http://www.airsealers.com/ME2/Default.asp > > Connie, when you say vapor barrier on top of drywall, do you mean on room side of ceiling so facing an occupant, like plastic on the ceiling of a room? You wouldn't put it in the attic facing down would you? > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 25, 2010 Report Share Posted May 25, 2010 I am in a cold climate...much like upstate NY say. Wetter I think....but real dry in summer. I'm in the foothills too. Mountains & woods on both sides pretty much. Just soooo damp. But when it doesn't rain it's amazingly dry. > > > > Sometimes moisture travels up but sometimes it travels down. Air with air moisture travels *toward air with low moisture, so direction depends on where the humidity is. You could have high relative humidity outside in winter but in terms of actual humidity it is dry air, so air inside the house is more humid and is warmer so those both are high energy air and will travel toward cooler, drier air, so up and out of house with chimney effect. However in summer it reverses direction for most climates assuming summer is warmer and more humid than winter where you live, so attic air will move down into house. > > > > See the two sides of house, chimney stack effect is upside down in summer for most people. > > > > http://www.airsealers.com/ME2/Default.asp > > > > Connie, when you say vapor barrier on top of drywall, do you mean on room side of ceiling so facing an occupant, like plastic on the ceiling of a room? You wouldn't put it in the attic facing down would you? > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 26, 2010 Report Share Posted May 26, 2010 . Re: my attic and house. I'll try but it's not only how the roof and attic are constructed but how they interact with the house that matters, which I'm still trying to figure out. I don't know all about how it is constructed but my roof is different than modern roofs in that is is totally made of real wood, no particle board or plywood or anything synthetic either. So it has real wood, not only in beams but all the boards of roof are wood boards. That's yet ANOTHER reason it was ashame to have put vents in, because it cut through that wonderful solid wood. I didn't know what the attic looked like when I said yes to the vents. The roofer said 'you have no vents and you should', and I said yes to putting them in. Mistake! If I knew the reasons FOR them, I would have known I didn't need them. They are to exhaust humid air, that's all, and prevent mold from forming. If I had known that and looked at attic, I would have seen there was no mold in an attic that had existed since the mid 1930's without vents just fine. Instead I thought of summer and how hard it was sometimes to cool the house off (I have black asphalt shingles on roof that get very hot and changing those to lighter color probably would have done the trick, plus adding to the insulation in the attic perhaps). Anyway, I thought that vents ALWAYS let heat out of the house. The result was I thought my winter heating bill would be higher, but I wouldn't have to run the air conditioner as much in the summer and I'd save there and have a cooler house. However it didn't. The heat bill was higher and so was the cooling bill!! A few years later and I had health effects of mold in house as the cold dry air from outside met the warm humid air inside, and met INSIDE the house on the inside of wall cavities that are open to attic and also to basement. When the attic was closed up, the cold winter air didn't get inside and PROBABLY the SOLID wood roof was a bit of an insulator all by itself. The black asphalt shingles probably warmed the roof a bit too in the winter. The house was solidly built but built in a different era with different building codes and the areas of the house worked fine, left as they were. The downside to these older houses is that they are VERY energy inefficient but at least they didn't have mold, not like homes today. Other features of attic: No floor also in this attic either, just beams. It had about 4 inches of what someone thought was rock wool or mineral wool, kind of tannish wooly looking stuff, not moldy either but it was removed when I realized attic air was mixing with house air, so I cleaned attic up. I haven't replaced the attic with new insulation yet, and I don't know what kind to use either. Considering the expense of Icynene or Sealection but don't know because the attic was okay before the vents without this super duper insulation foam. I don't think I can get rock wool again though. At least noone has offered it. > > Hi Barb, > I'm curious as to how your attic & roof is constructed. I'm doing a lot of reading & like you said different things work for different types of constuction... & materials. I have a metal roof that was put on top of ashphalt shingles. No soffit or anything. There is no floor in the attic just the beams. The ceilings of all the rooms is all that separates the airspace...with the damp cellulose on it. I may not insulate at all after I remove it. Everyone says I have to ( & I have to have vents & should MAKE vents in the crawlspace)... but maybe everyone is wrong again :-). > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 26, 2010 Report Share Posted May 26, 2010 Incidentally the 'you have to vent', may be building code if you are building new. I don't know much about building code, if it is existing home if you have to vent. I think building codes are made for new construction but may be necessary if you are rebuilding?? I've also heard people say you 'have to' vent or the warranty on your house shingles will be no good. In other words, if your attic isn't vented, shingle manufacturers may not back the warranty on their shingles because they say the shingles will be hotter and degrade faster, so the 'have to', may be new building code or a threat that shingle manufacturers will not back their warranty. Shingles on this roof are about 30 years old and still good, starting to be a little brittle but that's kind of life of a shingle. If it is code in your area and applies to older buildings too, then I've heard that you if you insulate with foam/Icynene or Sealection, then you can have a 'closed attic'/unvented. That is new to building code, acceptance of building new unvented attics if you insulate them with that product, more expensive than other insulating materials generally but really gives you super R value. My info on building codes is very lightweight though (but I'm certain there is new code for new attics being unvented with foam insulation.) I've heard of metal roofs over asphalt but I don't have that here. Is metal roof vented and asphalt one not or are they both? , or neither? In my house the ceilings of all the rooms are all that separate rooms from attic but the ceilings are not dry wall, they are lathe and plaster. What is different here I think is that tops of wall cavities are open (or not closed off well) at top and bottom, allowing air to move through wall cavities to attic and down into basement. Air circulated from top to bottom through wall cavities tied from basement to attic. In summer it probably moved in one direction, in winter the other direction. Newer homes now the attic is more isolated from the house. That is why venting here was a catastrophy here but to other people they don't SEE anything. You don't SEE visible mold here and many people didn't smell it either. I certainly didn't or I would have known before I got sick. Odor did develope though after 4-5 winter/summer cycles but still I was the main person who detected here. First with my health decline which I noticed only when I realized I 'recovered' when I went to the office mysteriously. Second I realized I smelled mildewy when I entered house and then smell disappeared. Eventually I realized what was happening was that I got used to odor quickly and I would only smell it when I first entered room, because I would notice the 'change' only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 27, 2010 Report Share Posted May 27, 2010 Thanks but no upstairs or downstairs. Furniture consists of the sewing machine the owner left & a chair someone gave me. The room is basically a storagte closet for my shoes, things that haven't outgassed & tons of papers. I don't tolerate paper well & it has to be dealt with in particular ways before it's in my living space. Thought of buying a POD. If I become homeless I could put it at a storage place. If I run out of money before I get de-molded I could put my things in there & stop paying storage & if the house turnes out to be too small I'll have extra room... & lastly, it has potential as a living space. I need to be very frugal though so I think my needs through thoroughly. I've been going crazy for months on where to put one too...or put a wood shed or both, or plastic, or metal... AGH. The terrain is pretty rough & you have to drive over the leach field to get to the smoother side. I wish I had someone here to see the place & to bounce ideas off of. > > > > The floors will be refinished once I figure out where to empty the house into. It seems that building firewood storage in essential & that will temorarily house things while I overhaul the house. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 27, 2010 Report Share Posted May 27, 2010 Thank you. After I remove the cellulose I just might cover the vents when it dries up this summer & go without insulation. Once I get someplace to store wood & use the stove regularly it will be dry in here. As far as heating costs, I don't think it would matter much with the wood stove. I was hot in here with it on & you can't lower the temp too much or the stove will go out! > > . Re: my attic and house. > I'll try but it's not only how the roof and attic are constructed but how they interact with the house that matters, which I'm still trying to figure out. I don't know all about how it is constructed but my roof is different than modern roofs in that is is totally made of real wood, no particle board or plywood or anything synthetic either. So it has real wood, not only in beams but all the boards of roof are wood boards. That's yet ANOTHER reason it was ashame to have put vents in, because it cut through that wonderful solid wood. I didn't know what the attic looked like when I said yes to the vents. The roofer said 'you have no vents and you should', and I said yes to putting them in. Mistake! If I knew the reasons FOR them, I would have known I didn't need them. They are to exhaust Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 27, 2010 Report Share Posted May 27, 2010 Did you ask about the asphalt/metal & which is vented? It's one roof - metal over asphalt (probably because they didn't want to start from scratch when they put the metal on) & the roof is vented on 3 sides. BIG vents - they are the way to get in the attic. The main part of the house is old. He said it used to be a general store back when people traveled on horseback. No record of that on the town records though. The moldy addition (the B/R's I can't use) was done in mabe 1950- rough estimate by the owner. Thanks for telling me about your walls too. I'll have to take a look at mine when the cellulose is out. > > Incidentally the 'you have to vent', may be building code if you are building new. I don't know much about building code, if it is existing home if you have to vent. I think building codes are made for new construction but may be necessary if you are rebuilding?? I've also heard people say you 'have to' vent or the warranty on your house shingles will be no good. In other words, if your attic isn't vented, shingle manufacturers may not back the warranty on their shingles because they say the shingles will be hotter and degrade faster, so the 'have to', may be new building code or a threat that shingle manufacturers will not back their warranty. Shingles on this roof are about 30 years old and still good, starting to be a little brittle but that's kind of life of a shingle. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 27, 2010 Report Share Posted May 27, 2010 Yikes. I'd be scared if I were you too. Well there are unvented construction ideas on buildingscience.com. I wouldn't go with the spray foam though. I didn't take too much net research for me to decide it was probably going to be too toxic for me. My L/R ceiling is real wood boards with strips of wood between them. So are the walls. The bedroom walls are gypsum. I think the ceiling is gypsum too with a thin layer of some sort of plaster. I don't know if the whole attic is solid wood. From the outside it looks like the sheathing is wood boards that don't even meet. I never looked UP that close when I poked my head into the vent to see if that's what's up inside but I guess so. The cellulose puffs out into the air for at least 10 ft so I try to stand back when someone goes up there. > > Our attic sounds similar in construction. Built in 1967 with solid wood > hip roof, & beams with only 2 small vents.We are in a small development built > by a good local builder. We have lived here since l994 which we bought > from my mother. Only 1 other owner before her for a yr. House has oil heat and > original windows. It's very warm in the winter but you can feel a little > air around the windows in the winter on windy days.I think a little air is a > good thing & not all sealed tight. Attic gets hot in the winter but never > damp and no mold. Cold in the winter but we have a little insulating tent > over the stairs. We will have to replace the roof in a few years and I'm > scared to death. I fear they will go with new codes and mess it up. I am > fine in my home and want to stay that way. > Sue R. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 27, 2010 Report Share Posted May 27, 2010 Thanks for the link. I already bought Bioshield oil & wax though. I'm REALLY sensitive & even that will probably get to me for awhile. Won't do it until it's warm enough to leave the windows opened. I also need to sand a layer of that yucky floor off. I can imagine what might be living in it. I am grossed out when I drop something on it. EEEWWW. Smells like dog pee, beer & horses. I'd rather drop something in the dirt outside. Another issue that's driving me crazy about doing this is that it takes a looooooong time to dry. I don't know what to do - prepare to sleep in my truck & shower outside ? ... wing it as far as eating goes ? Geez what did I get myself into. > > Check this out for floor refinishing. I think they have them in many > different areas. I have a friend who used them and is VERY happy. No odor and > very little mess. She lives in a house that's about 100 years old and the > floors turned out really nice. _http://www.mrsandless.com/_ > (http://www.mrsandless.com/) > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 27, 2010 Report Share Posted May 27, 2010 Sue do you have insulation on the floor (really the downstairs ceiling) of the attic ? My attic isn't moldy but the cellulose is damp. I guess mold can't grow on cellulose plus the extremely dry summer fixes it all. Now I'm wondering if I should keep the cellulose. Once I get wood storage I can use the wood stove all winter & keep things dry so the L/R ceiling doesn't collapse. I only used 1/2 cord this winter. The wood was damp, nowhere good to put it. I had an awful time - a newbie to wood burning, wet wood, & heavy inversions. Most of the wood didn't even have a flame it just charred from the inside out. It should be a piece of cake next winter with dry wood ! Another thing that could be from the wet cellulose is that ants are crawling up the house, in & out of the attic, it seems, and down the other side of the house...in LARGE numbers. Once the lizards came out it's been greatly reduced. Went to the National Forest office for advice. Didn't want to re-apply boric acid & undermine my lizard helpers. She recommended fresh coffe grounds. Seems the ants look a bit sickly today but not sure if it's the coffee or the drop in temp. > > Our attic sounds similar in construction. Built in 1967 with solid wood > hip roof, & beams with only 2 small vents.We are in a small development built > by a good local builder. We have lived here since l994 which we bought > from my mother. Only 1 other owner before her for a yr. House has oil heat and > original windows. It's very warm in the winter but you can feel a little > air around the windows in the winter on windy days.I think a little air is a > good thing & not all sealed tight. Attic gets hot in the winter but never > damp and no mold. Cold in the winter but we have a little insulating tent > over the stairs. We will have to replace the roof in a few years and I'm > scared to death. I fear they will go with new codes and mess it up. I am > fine in my home and want to stay that way. > Sue R. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 27, 2010 Report Share Posted May 27, 2010 Remember Sue if they say new code says you have to put vents, you can either point out that it has existed for this many years without them with no moisture problems and I'd say ask them to sign something that if the vents cause indoor problems, they will pay for the damage. If they say they HAVE TO due to city code, then find out if code allows no vents with foam insulation. That's what I heard, foam insulation is being accepted as an alternative to venting. A friend I grew up with has a house built in the mid 1930's like mine. She grew up in the house and there is no mold problem and no vents in attic, and they are healthy and no odor in the house. No odor at all...I'm sure everything has off gassed since 1930's but also no indoor problems have developed. > > Our attic sounds similar in construction. Built in 1967 with solid wood > hip roof, & beams with only 2 small vents.We are in a small development built > by a good local builder. We have lived here since l994 which we bought > from my mother. Only 1 other owner before her for a yr. House has oil heat and > original windows. It's very warm in the winter but you can feel a little > air around the windows in the winter on windy days.I think a little air is a > good thing & not all sealed tight. Attic gets hot in the winter but never > damp and no mold. Cold in the winter but we have a little insulating tent > over the stairs. We will have to replace the roof in a few years and I'm > scared to death. I fear they will go with new codes and mess it up. I am > fine in my home and want to stay that way. > Sue R. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 27, 2010 Report Share Posted May 27, 2010 , I'm not sure I understand the question but will take a guess. I looked into metal and have seen where they can put it over existing shingles. I decided not to do it. For one thing decorative metal roofs are extremely expensive but are supposed to last forever. I only intend to be in house a couple more years (my job is keeping here for now), and regular roof is good enough and as I said, I don't have any trouble with one I have. I keep asking roofers if it is in good condition because I worry about it and they always say it looks fine. Lately one said some are beginning to show wear but it was old when I moved here 20 years ago, so it's to be expected. It isn't anything fancy, just your baseline black asphalt shingle. If I had to reshingle, I would go to a little bit lighter color, maybe medium color because black is sooo hot for roof, maybe med gray. Light color might let attic get too cold in winter and I don't want to change anything too much since I've learned my lessons about changing things that are working okay and attic is not causing any trouble. I have a flat metal roof over a back porch that needs to be coated every five years or so and is due for a coating. Do you mean a flat metal roof? That is more common but a plain pitched metal roof is seen primarily on commercial buildings but I've seen them on homes too. There are decorative ones that look like shingles or tiles and are beautiful and last forever but cost many times more than regular shingles. I don't know if there is any benefit except for the length of time it lasts or if there are any indoor problems with them?? I believe even the plain pitched metal roofs are more expensive than regular shingled roof but once you have it, it's probably there forever and never has to be reshingled. > > Did you ask about the asphalt/metal & which is vented? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 27, 2010 Report Share Posted May 27, 2010 Thanks . This is quite a find. Refinishing floors makes a big mess and so is usually only done when people are moving in or out, I've been told. > > Check this out for floor refinishing. I think they have them in many > different areas. I have a friend who used them and is VERY happy. No odor and > very little mess. She lives in a house that's about 100 years old and the > floors turned out really nice. _http://www.mrsandless.com/_ > (http://www.mrsandless.com/) > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 27, 2010 Report Share Posted May 27, 2010 Oh my! 10 feet is quite alot of cellulose. That might be the problem right there. Too much insulation may retain moisture inside of it and not be able to dry out adequately. The attic here had about 4-5 inches which people wanted to get me to put up to 10 inches. Did you mean inches or feet??? > > Yikes. I'd be scared if I were you too. Well there are unvented construction ideas on buildingscience.com. I wouldn't go with the spray foam though. I didn't take too much net research for me to decide it was probably going to be too toxic for me. > My L/R ceiling is real wood boards with strips of wood between them. So are the walls. The bedroom walls are gypsum. I think the ceiling is gypsum too with a thin layer of some sort of plaster. I don't know if the whole attic is solid wood. From the outside it looks like the sheathing is wood boards that don't even meet. I never looked UP that close when I poked my head into the vent to see if that's what's up inside but I guess so. The cellulose puffs out into the air for at least 10 ft so I try to stand back when someone goes up there. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 27, 2010 Report Share Posted May 27, 2010 You have to be very creative to solve some of these problems on limited funds. What state do you live in again ? > > Thanks but no upstairs or downstairs. Furniture consists of the sewing machine the owner left & a chair someone gave me. The room is basically a storagte closet for my shoes, things that haven't outgassed & tons of papers. I don't tolerate paper well & it has to be dealt with in particular ways before it's in my living space. Thought of buying a POD. If I become homeless I could put it at a storage place. If I run out of money before I get de-molded I could put my things in there & stop paying storage & if the house turnes out to be too small I'll have extra room... & lastly, it has potential as a living space. I need to be very frugal though so I think my needs through thoroughly. I've been going crazy for months on where to put one too...or put a wood shed or both, or plastic, or metal... AGH. The terrain is pretty rough & you have to drive over the leach field to get to the smoother side. I wish I had someone here to see the place & to bounce ideas off of. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 27, 2010 Report Share Posted May 27, 2010 I thought you were asking for more info on my roof construction that's all. Yes, it's pitched roof. Lots of people have them here. The only drawback I see is that it might be more likely to get more condensation on the underside of the metal. The asphalt may absorb that. It drips almost every morning too, even without rain, since the temp drops dramatically at night here - by 20 to 30 degrees. > > , I'm not sure I understand the question but will take a guess. > > I looked into metal and have seen where they can put it over existing shingles. I decided not to do it. For one thing decorative metal roofs are extremely expensive but are supposed to last forever. I only intend to be in house a couple more years (my job is keeping here for now), and regular roof is good enough and as I said, I don't have any trouble with one I have. I keep asking roofers if it is in good condition because I worry about it and they always say it looks fine. Lately one said some are beginning to show wear but it was old when I moved here 20 years ago, so it's to be expected. It isn't anything fancy, just your baseline black asphalt shingle. If I had to reshingle, I would go to a little bit lighter color, maybe medium color because black is sooo hot for roof, maybe med Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 27, 2010 Report Share Posted May 27, 2010 Hee Hee no it's that the dust flies out over ten feet when anyone goes up there.... & it sort of hangs in the air like smoke. > > > > Yikes. I'd be scared if I were you too. Well there are unvented construction ideas on buildingscience.com. I wouldn't go with the spray foam though. I didn't take too much net research for me to decide it was probably going to be too toxic for me. > > My L/R ceiling is real wood boards with strips of wood between them. So are the walls. The bedroom walls are gypsum. I think the ceiling is gypsum too with a thin layer of some sort of plaster. I don't know if the whole attic is solid wood. From the outside it looks like the sheathing is wood boards that don't even meet. I never looked UP that close when I poked my head into the vent to see if that's what's up inside but I guess so. The cellulose puffs out into the air for at least 10 ft so I try to stand back when someone goes up there. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 27, 2010 Report Share Posted May 27, 2010 California. I know there are ways to be a squeaky wheel with the Weatherization Program. The onset of MCS has made it more difficult than I'd like to access the part of my brain that deals with red tape & complications :-). > > > > Thanks but no upstairs or downstairs. Furniture consists of the sewing machine the owner left & a chair someone gave me. The room is basically a storagte closet for my shoes, things that haven't outgassed & tons of papers. I don't tolerate paper well & it has to be dealt with in particular ways before it's in my living space. Thought of buying a POD. If I become homeless I could put it at a storage place. If I run out of money before I get de-molded I could put my things in there & stop paying storage & if the house turnes out to be too small I'll have extra room... & lastly, it has potential as a living space. I need to be very frugal though so I think my needs through thoroughly. I've been going crazy for months on where to put one too...or put a wood shed or both, or plastic, or metal... AGH. The terrain is pretty rough & you have to drive over the leach field to get to the smoother side. I wish I had someone here to see the place & to bounce ideas off of. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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