Re: Fighting Fair- Examples of Unfair fighting

[Guest guest]

Hi,

What you have described is quite similar to what ex did.

One thing I could not stand was hearing him saying "I do not know" to anything, even things he knew because was part of what he did at work....... With a blank stare in his eyes as well!

Also I disliked going to a restaurant with him, I had to eat what he told me to eat. Or I will have to pay for it for the rest of the day. I do not eat Shrimp, but he likes them. If we had gone to a place where seafood was served and I was looking at the seafood section in the menu. He would assume that I was going to go there to eat shrimp or oysters.

If I mentioned to him a shrimp dish (just to talk about an specific dish) he assumed that I wanted it. If I ended up ordering chicken or veggies, he would be irritated and insist that I have to eat shrimp because that was what I was looking at first.

It did not matter I told him I did not eat Shrimp, he knew I do not. I tried to talk to him peacefully and explain to him who much I will dislike my meal if I ate that. I told him and told him I wanted to eat chicken or veggies....... Yet somehow it was my fault his day as ruined as I did not eat the shrimp. I never told him what to eat or how to eat them....... It is his stomach so he can do as he pleases....... -

It was anguishing going to eat at a restaurant. There were times in which I would not even want to look at the menu. I would just ask for grilled chicken salad or a veggie plate.

I usually do not put salad dressing on my salads, I do not like them as I did not grow up with them. I use Olive Oil and that is my dressing, I like it that way. Well, he wanted me to put a dressing on my salad-- it was my fault that he did not enjoyed his meal as I did not had dressing on my salad the way he wanted me to have it-- at times I just wanted to put the salad on his head! Did not do it, too bad LOL! Bad ha?

Trying to explain to him this things was not possible, he was passive-aggressive, so I learned to let go....... If I tried to explain to him in a very gentle way why I wanted chicken or veggies....... He would not listen or he would just give me the cold shoulder or leave a room. I was left there thinking I should have eaten something I did not want to.

Being me was a crime as I can see now. It was his way or no way in everything, and the worse part is that I was the one making most of the decisions at home....... Yet, how would that make me incapable of knowing what food I wanted?

I do not tell anyone what to eat....... Everyone is free to chose, that is pretty much the way out there, or so I hope!

I am still working in your mail, but might write to you off list, all depend what examples I need to give you.

I am so glad you are back, by the way, you seem to be stronger than before. I am really glad that you are back.

How was your holiday? Mine so far so good....... I do not usually celebrate a whole much of stuff, but I do acknowledge others customs and try to participate in theirs if I chose to.

Yet there are some costumes I would just not celebrate, like Halloween and such type stuff.

.

PS-- I wonder what in the heck ex had?....... He was an NT, no AS....... Yet, Social Phobia to the extreme!.......

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[Guest guest]

, Ding Flippin' Dong!

I've argued (ahem, debated) with Ian about many of these points, over the years. He still maintains a lot of his apparent ignorance of whats what, is because his head is thinking of other things. The going out and not telling me - drove me nuts and happened for days on end. That has lessened since I once did the same thing to him, left the house and didnt come back for hours. He was demented. AHA, says I. How, you wonder, could he have not realised before, how awful it is to come back to an empty house, or have the door bang shut and realise he has left the house, with no message or by your leave? But when I did it, he went off his nut.

Cutting me off in conversation, walking out of the room - happens daily. I now return the compliment, deliberately - as in today when I walked out on him halfway through one of his long speeches on one of his topics. Randomly, I will suddenly talk back to him mimicing his sarcastic tone, repeating one his hurtful phrases back to him. Always catches him unawares. Always upsets him. I dont sound like that he says. Ah, but you do. Biter bit, eh? He now 'hears' how he sounds to me. He's been a lot better since I started doing this - often thinking before he speaks, but on the other hand I try not to take it to heart when he slips into his zone and treats me like a hatstand. I dont let him get away with it though. We talk things through a lot more. He now says - miracle! - where do you want this, what do you want to do?

I am still a part of the furniture, but at least he pauses to acknowledge me on his way past. Maybe I have been promoted from a hatstand to a more beloved object!

Judy B, Scotland, good to hear from you again

Subject: Fighting Fair- Examples of Unfair fightingTo: aspires-relationships Date: Friday, 28 November, 2008, 3:18 AM

Fighting unfairly- examples

constantly cutting someone off from being able to finish a point..not really listening to what the person is trying to say

walking out of a room because you don't want to answer a question

saying I don't know..to every question asked

after trying to see both sides...the one person presents a point of view and then tries to reiterate the other persons...the other person objects to both points of view but doesn't present one of their own

using sarcasm, arrogance

excessively raising voice...to a point of "yelling"

stating that something that was an accident was intentional and dwelling upon it

cutting a person off because she said $3 instead of $2.95 and then losing the whole point of the conversation. ..constantly correcting minor things...to not look at the bigger picture

saying your sorry for an action...and then repeating the same action over and over and over again (actions like going out drinking most nites, leaving the house without any type of statement as to where you are going or what you will be doing, or when you will be back)

giving only partial information. ....I consider this being misleading and lying by ommission (allowing your partner to give full disclosure and you keep your cards to your chest)

i always try to confront a situation where i think my partner may feel uncomfortable, tell him in advance and try to explain why i want to do something

he does it without any type of trying to tell me...does what he wants when he wants with whom he wants where he wants and doesn't consider my feelings..or if he does...automaticall y assumes my response..so no forwarning.. only actions on his part

not recognizing the difference between this

manipulation. ..acting like something is for the good of us...when really it is just a way to get what he wants...acting like he had no choice in the matter when really he did...not giving the real reasons for actions or thoughts...

i am way too honest...way to forthright.. .and i will always be...totally ingrained in me...know that sometimes what i think or what i may want to do may cause some distress but feel it is better to try to talk it through up front...

even after the fact...i can't hide and won't what i think i may have done wrong..and will say it..or maybe some circumstance ....this is never reciprocated

basically i think it is just his actions..that it is his way or no way...no ability to compromise.. feels that if he does..he loses...doesn' t see win win situation to meeting halfway

and if anyone doesn't do whatever it is exactly his way...you become an enemy...or someone he perceives is stupid, critical, whatever

probably more

basically never being able to take responsibility for his actions...has to blame someone else, usually me... after a bit...i get angry..so rather than focus on what it was to create my anger..the focus becomes JUST on my anger

when i come up with suggestions for improvement to whatever situation... no no no to every suggestion.. when i ask for examples of improvement from him...no reply..i don't know...haven' t thought about it (these phrases resonate in my head)

does any of this ring any bells?

[Guest guest]

Hello--

I can relate to some of the things you have said about your husband. ex did a lot of them, and he was an NT.

The way I treated this situations usually required a very planned talk to him. I had to walk on shells and be very careful of what I had to say as not to cause another problem.

I was always caring and open to talk, he was not. There were times when I was able to talk to him about a subject, but he will frown and make a face!

Any type of subject will be out of the questions. Things about the house, decision making and all the things that are related to a house.

I will ask peacefully if "I could have an explanation" on how he was perceiving things.......

Not repsonse, no matter how soft I was. It was always his way or no way....... I would have not matter done his way, if his way was logical. Or if he tried to compromise even just a little.

I am a person who pays attention to cause/effect and who feels that questioning things is the best approach in life. Bear in mind that I did not say: Questioning him, no. I said questioning things, most everything is the way to go.

Explanation: When there are troubles in a relationship, the best way to approach the problems, to analyze them, and to handle them is by means of "assertive knowledge".

I always told ex that I could work with the truth, but not lying, or concealing things.

I was honest with him, too honest perhaps so I had nothing to hide. He hide the most basic things. It was something he has done since little, so he carried that with him all the way into adulthood.

I could have wroked with all of those tings, but the lying and concealing continued all the way through.

He never took responsibility for his actions, he did not talk as friends, he was not my confidant. He was always distant and came to me if he needed something solved.

He is a very good hearted guy, he does have a heart, but not for a woman, neither the things that have to do with being in a relationship.

I felt hta tif he did not concealed and "fake" so many things before we got married, we would nave never done it!

If I knew what I know now ONE minute fore getting into marriage, I would have stopped it all.

There are things I do not tolerate, and betrayal is one of those. I am talking aobut betrayal of trust!

I do not know what to advise you, neither what I could do do if I was in yor possition. it wold be hard for me to deal with so much without "having" his cooperation.

I feelt hat if couples talk without waling in shells, without purpously hurting each other, without being defensive or without attacking....... they could become stronger as couple and also work together as one.

It really does not matter how much one of the parites tries and tries and tries again, it has to be the combination of two the one that will make things go forward and not backwards.

Have you written him a letter telling him "how much you love him"? Have you say anything int he efect of what he meanst to youa dn how you would like the relationsyhip to go. How much you need him as a partner and spouse? How much you wish that things could be talked about and give some ideas of things that could imporve in both of you.

also ask if he would be kind when talking back to you and also ask him if he could please ask for an explanation instead of what you mean by something. Tell him not to assume you are attacking him, but trying to get closer to him, tell him how much you wish for this things to happen so that you can both grow together as partners and friends.

I know that dad was the extreme of AS....... He would assume someone was trying to get him. He would assume and investigate everything....... He would question things, not to make things bad (as others thought) But because he thought that if he knew the truth he could work with it. It was hard to deal with dad, everything had to be his way, others did not like it....... But his ways were so similar to mine, that with me it was alright.

No one gave dad a break that way, no one got to his heart....... He was ready to receive, but no one there to give to him....... But I did.

Not much was achieved on that respect in his life, even when others loved him; they did so conditionally. They all mentioned the things you are mentioning about your husband when they talked about dad, except for a couple....... It is hard to understand someone like them.......

Yet, I understood dad's reasons for an specific action, even if the action was not fully understood by me. Usually when he had gotten hurt by someone, it was most likely that he had misinterpreted their words, or misunderstood their intentions!

That also happens to me often (I get misinterpreted) but I try to be kind and explain what I have intended to do by whatever I have done. I want peace of mind, and that is why I do have a great deal of patience....... more often than not! That was the difference between dad and I, he would react much faster than me when he got hurt....... But he always tried his best! It was just never enough for others. Dad improved with age, he matured a lot later in his life.......

Hope that there is away he could try his best to relate to your pain, you are a very nice lady.......

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[Guest guest]

Usarian.......

One thing about you is that NO MATTER WHAT, you poke a stick in a beehive in a heart beat! You must think you are cat with 9 lives! :-) :-)

I hope you made it out alive, e could get you for all of that!

........ And yes, My AS shows at times....... Many times in my ways.......

In reality is not that I was questioning him, I was trying to se between he lines and understand his reasoning to a degree....... It is the beginning of understanding and good communication.......

About the example you gave with the money....... Oh yes! I like to know the prices and if they are on sale how much of a sale it is. If so can I bargain even lower?

I am a bargainer! Grew up with it and love it! But when others tell me how much something cost and I look at the price tag and there is no signs of "sale tag"....... It makes me want to see the receipt myself. No, not to argue, but to know how much something really cost. Budget or not! It is to know the "truth"!

This type of things are simple to others, but if someone cannot be sincere with me in a simple question, how much can I trust them with the important things, or my heart?

Even if the truth is not something was not what I wish it was, I still can work with it, but not lies. I can always find a way to work things out....... but the truth is needed for me to know what direction to take, not to make someone feel bad. No need of that , only of positive approach.

No matter what anyone tells me, if I am told the truth from the bottom of the heart I am ready to work things out....... But lying only requires a bigger lie and things get out of hand and everyone looses.......

It is all good though, but I understand your point, we do get misinterpreted at times, do to wanting to know how things are, or work, or, or, or.......

It seems to me some NT's for the most part take things personally, and get hurt if I ask something they might want to hide.

In my head I am wondering, what in the world did I said? I just want to know what is what? How bad can that be? In their heads I am out to get them....... When that is far from happening at all.

On the other hand, they are thinking of some of us AS exactly as I just described above. Go figure!....... Should it be me the one running to hide now?

How are your kids doing? Did you made it alive Beehive poker?

.

PS-- e, you are an angel! ;-)

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[Guest guest]

>I was always caring and open to talk, he was not. There were times when I was able to talk to him about a

>subject, but he will frown and make a face!

....

> I would have not matter done his way, if his way was logical.

....

>Bear in mind that I did not say: Questioning him, no. I said questioning things,

....

>I could have wroked with all of those tings, but the lying and concealing continued all the way through. >He never took responsibility for his actions, he did not talk as friends, he was not my confidant. He was always >distant and came to me if he needed something solved.

....

>I felt hta tif he did not concealed and "fake" so many things

...

>That also happens to me often (I get misinterpreted) but I try to be kind and explain what I have intended to do by whatever I have done.

PSST! .. your AS is showing...

These are all the exact same complaints and frustrations I have had (and still have) with e (me AS, her NT).

The literal and accurate truth and concept of full disclosure and all the rest just that we AS take for granted as what everybody says is "good relationship" practice just doesn't hit NT's the same way as AS folk. e and I have come to think of it as people coming from two places on a highway.. take this exit after 10 miles.. well, I'm already AT honest and open, so if you tell me to be honest and open with my wife, gosh darn it, I'm going to be honest and open... every single stray thought that passes through my head, every event in my day is of note. I tell hger everything I think and feel at every moment. She overloads with WAAAY too much information from me, and then "hides" everything going on on her end.. "Wht do you mean you paid the electric bill already??? How come you didn't tell me? What do you mean it didn't seem important!?!? Are you Crazy!? Yes I know it's in the budget, but I need to know!" and on down the line with much much more personal stuff.

I thoguth of her as a liar for YEARS.. that really hurt her deeply. And it hurt me deeply that she was doing it. This year I have come to think of a difference between extreme accuracy and lying. I have had to let go of details she tells me that are inaccurate and get the jist of what she's saying. And to some extent she had to reign in her approximations.. sticking with money again, she'd say something only cost $5 and it really cost 15.. the idea for her was that it was cheap. Well honestly her thing was quite extreme.. it could cost $50 and she'd say it was $10.. she called it rounding. She could go the other way with it as well. The number was a reflection of how she felt about the number. not in the least any kind of attempt to budget correctly. She had no idea that she was doing it, and it just thoroughly baffled me how someone I regarded so highly could make such an incredible error in judgement. I'd hit the roof feeling personally betrayed every time, and she felt I was off my rocker for getting upset. But once again, that went far deeper than just numbers too.

Welp, sorry I went long and sorry I'm cutting it short, but ZI goptta run!

-U

[Guest guest]

One thing about you is that NO MATTER WHAT, you poke a stick in a beehive in a heart beat! You must think you are cat with 9 lives! :-) :-)

I hope you made it out alive, e could get you for all of that!

--

US>> I don't get in trouble for much with my wifey.. she's very much a live and let live person. At worst she'd come one and correct something I said that she felt was off, but she's been much too busy lately to participate much. She might catch up tomorrow some time.

--

........ And yes, My AS shows at times....... Many times in my ways.......

In reality is not that I was questioning him, I was trying to se between he lines and understand his reasoning to a degree....... It is the beginning of understanding and good communication.......

--

US>> Yeah, this is what I was tryign to get at really.. NT's just don't seem to reason things out like AS do. Speaking in gross generalities of course, but my wife is an extreme NT (eg. she hates math because it "makes no sense at all").. she is like an anti AS .. The whole concept of AS is a strict line of reasoning, but NT's it's vague and they don't pay attention to it for the most part. They don’t make decisions based on a set of reasoned out conclusions, they just do what seems proper intuitively. If an NT DOES sit down and work through it, it's out of some sort of training or upbringing.. if not that.. well, they're probably undiagnosed AS!

--

About the example you gave with the money....... Oh yes! I like to know the prices and if they are on sale how much of a sale it is. If so can I bargain even lower?

I am a bargainer! Grew up with it and love it! But when others tell me how much something cost and I look at the price tag and there is no signs of "sale tag"....... It makes me want to see the receipt myself. No, not to argue, but to know how much something really cost. Budget or not! It is to know the "truth"!

This type of things are simple to others, but if someone cannot be sincere with me in a simple question, how much can I trust them with the important things, or my heart?

Even if the truth is not something was not what I wish it was, I still can work with it, but not lies. I can always find a way to work things out....... but the truth is needed for me to know what direction to take, not to make someone feel bad. No need of that , only of positive approach.

No matter what anyone tells me, if I am told the truth from the bottom of the heart I am ready to work things out....... But lying only requires a bigger lie and things get out of hand and everyone looses.......

It is all good though, but I understand your point, we do get misinterpreted at times, do to wanting to know how things are, or work, or, or, or.......

It seems to me some NT's for the most part take things personally, and get hurt if I ask something they might want to hide.

In my head I am wondering, what in the world did I said? I just want to know what is what? How bad can that be? In their heads I am out to get them....... When that is far from happening at all.

On the other hand, they are thinking of some of us AS exactly as I just described above. Go figure!....... Should it be me the one running to hide now?

--

US>> This is where I have had a major change in my outlook on things. I have always insisted truth vs lie.... black and white. No one ever argued with me about it until I met e. I have finally come to see it in a different light. There is not an intent to deceive or mislead, they just never paid attention to the details.. it's not important.

What you're discussing is what I call the difference between accuracy and honesty. NT's are intrinsically inaccurate. It's the challenge of the AS to see past the facts and into the intent. To ignore the words and listen to the face and tone as NT's do. Doesn't it annoy the crap out of you that NT's think they know what you're saying and completely ignore every carefully cosen word you just said??? It does me! My eyes have been openning lately to the difference to the fact that NT's simply do not communicate with each other using words.. there's statisics if you need them (but needing them emphasises the point anyway).

The summary of the matter is this: never let the facts get in the way of what's being communicated.

Our matter of fact tone and neutral facial expression is what is hurtful to NT's when we speak. Kind of like the background music to a video segment. The tone changes completely with a different style of music to the same identical video.

--

How are your kids doing? Did you made it alive Beehive poker?

US>> Kids are good.. big few days for them with company and all and routines all messed up. I think my beehive will be rather low key with all the cold weather..

.

PS-- e, you are an angel! ;-)

[Guest guest]

Hi all. e here. , I just caught up on the postings from yesterday and you are right in assuming I would have a different way of viewing things, not to worry Usarian is still alive and kicking. Those bees did not over take him yet.

When we first got married I had no idea just how literal Usarian was. Since the running example is money based, I will continue suit. Let's say we had done the budget and Usarian would say there is Forty dollars this week for groceries. I would be ecstatic to come home and announce that I had been able, through all sorts of scrimping and saving and coupon clipping to keep groceries at forty bucks. When Usarian saw the receipt and it read $40.35 he would completely flip out. Accusing me of lying and being dishonest. I would then be hurt and feel under appreciated because it had taken a lot of work for me to keep groceries to $40.00 (35 cents over never even entered my thought process I know that is probably grating all the other AS people on the list as wrong too....Sorry). These arguments took place over issues much more personal than the grocery budget. It got to the point he was accusing me of lying so much that the kids didn't even believe what I said. This is one of the issues that nearly made me give up on our marriage.

I am not nearly as prone to exaggeration as Usarian made it seem in his last posting but it FEELS like that to him because of the way he views life. If I were to say that it was raining cats and dogs and he looked outside and saw it pouring down H2O I would be accused of lying back then. I learned to be much more precise in my dealings with him and he has learned not to take everything SO----O literally.

Usarian still often does not believe me. It often comes down to his memory, which is not the greatest on many things. It can be so frustrating to tell somebody something that is the God's honest truth and still have them not believe you because they don't remember things. He hates it when I bring this up because to him his memory is flawless (it is just EVERYBODY else in his life that remembers things wrong) Most of the time I don't even bother arguing with him anymore because quite honestly it makes me very very angry to have my word constantly questioned. I would just rather let it go.

However, I told him I never wanted to hear the word lying with any connection to my name come out of his mouth again. This is something I was and am serious on. It took a LONG time to begin to undo the damage he did to my reputation in our boys minds. This is one of those still very sensitive issues to me.

Krisitne, don't worry...I have not let the bees loose...yet

From: Helen Foisy

Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 9:13 AM

To: aspires-relationships

Subject: Fighting Fair- Examples of Unfair fighting

I just had to pipe up here... <smile!> ....At 11:04 PM 11/29/2008, Usarian wrote:

This is where I have had a major change in my outlook on things. I have always insisted truth vs lie.... black and white. No one ever argued with me about it until I met e. I have finally come to see it in a different light. There is not an intent to deceive or mislead, they just never paid attention to the details.. it's not important. What you're discussing is what I call the difference between accuracy and honesty. NT's are intrinsically inaccurate. It's the challenge of the AS to see past the facts and into the intent. To ignore the words and listen to the face and tone as NT's do. Doesn't it annoy the crap out of you that NT's think they know what you're saying and completely ignore every carefully cosen word you just said??? It does me! My eyes have been openning lately to the difference to the fact that NT's simply do not communicate with each other using words.. there's statisics if you need them (but needing them emphasises the point anyway). The summary of the matter is this: never let the facts get in the way of what's being communicated. Our matter of fact tone and neutral facial expression is what is hurtful to NT's when we speak. Kind of like the background music to a video segment. The tone changes completely with a different style of music to the same identical video.You could not have said it better, Usarian. LOL! I've frequently disparaged that some folks are very "fluid with their facts" and "wishy washy" when they tell you something one day with deep conviction and the next day after they've spoken with their peers, they have re-aligned themselves with the majority, even if the majority is WRONG.When I was young, I figured it was just out and out lying, and I loved jokes like this one:Q. How can you tell that _________ is lying?A. Her lips are moving."I could NEVER understand the purpose of this behavior until I started watching "Survivor." This facet of NT behavior is what I believe prompted Jane Meyerding, a very bright light in our autism community, to come to an interesting conclusion when she was a young woman, struggling to find her place in college. She know nothing about AS or NT ways of being back then of course, but she classified those who relied on "group-think" as having a "hollow core" and those who formed opinions and beliefs independently, like herself, as having a "solid core." Read more of her insights at this link:Thoughts on Finding Myself Differently Brainedhttp://www.inlv.demon.nl/subm-brain.jane.eng.htmlThere is no disrespect intended towards our NT brethren here at all. But U must admit that, frankly, there are many pathological traits that are ascribed to AS by the NT community. The one that REALLY sticks in my craw is the repeated assertion that we have no empathy. So now U see, there are things that we on the spectrum can be very perplexed if not deeply disturbed about by NT social communication as well.- Helen

[Guest guest]

Hi e,

First of all, I want you to know that I LOVE YOU BOTH! Your posts are something else and I mean that in a very good way.

I can see both your points, I understand his train of though, and his readiness to jump into conclusions. The memory things is also an Aspie stuff, we have great memories, YET where the confusion might be coming from is that "some of us AS" MIGHT have said something and our words were intended in a completely different manner than the NT perceive them.

when the NT tells us what we have said, we are perplexed as we never said that. See?

Same for some of us, we can hear what is being said and understand it differently than what it was intended to mean.

NT's might interpret what we have said wrong. So when someone tells me, "you said this or that" I am surprised as that is not what I 'MEANT" so how could it be what I said?

Confused yet?

There are also times when we said things we do not remember saying, so the person would have to make an honest effort in order to make sure that we understood what was being said. In this case asking Is this what you mean by this or that? would be a good approach on things.

There are times when Usarian could measure his words in order to keep the beehive alone ;-) yet I can see very well and relate to what he does. No matter what, he wants to know the exact truth, the details on things.

I have two brothers, one is EXACT and the other one IS NOT EXACT AT ALL in the things they do.

The one is exact was doing some accounting in his checkbook, and he could not find TEN CENTS! Things did not match! He looked and looked and looked again his checkbook, he wanted to WHY things did not match. Did he made a mistake in the calculator, did he entered the wrong amount, and if so which one?

He wanted to know the details of why his book did not match. While I was silently observing, my other brother came into his office and said: What is going on, why do have that face of disgust? My brother said: I am missing ten cents, and I want to know what have I done wrong? My other brother looked at me, who at this time had tears in my cheeks of how much I was laughing and trying to hide it.

I knew what was coming....... My NONE exact brother put his hand in his picket got TEN CENTS and put them on top pf the desk in front of my EXACT brother!

Then said, let go eat, DO NOT WORRY, It is my treat!

I was able then to laugh at the whole thing. I also wanted to know what he had done wrong, not because of the ten cents, but where was the mistake made. It really was not about the ten cents for my exact brother or me-- as I am sure he or I could get it from our pockets and make things match--....... But it would not be the same!

About your example of cats and dogs....... Oh boy!....... When I was knew in the USA, and I was visiting with an old lady who was quite sick. It was pouring rain out there, she said looking at the window: It is raining cats and dogs!

I walked toward the window and only saw Water drops....... I immediately walked toward the bed of the lady, took her temperature as I thought she was delirious!

When no deliriousness was ruled out (due to high fever not being present, neither mediations that could give that)....... I was concern for her mind.......

When her daughter came back from the store, I said: I think your mom is loosing it due to being so sick, she said it was raining cats and dogs!

My friend dropped the bags with the food on the floor and almost titi on her as how hard she was laughing....... I though she had also gone crazy until she told me it was a "saying for when it rains hard!"

I see your point though, specially if the kids were affected by what he said.......

I wonder what would he say if you round it up to the next number, so instead of saying you spent $40.00 could say you spend $41.00 MORE OR LESS. The more or less will make you right! Even is you say it was $40.00 MORE OR LESS.......

You know, little things that really should not matter, do matter in a relationship.

There is one thing I do cannot stand, and it is someone using my toothpaste AND NOT squeezing it the way I do. Ex used to squeeze it unevenly, I squeeze it from the bottom upwards.

My solution when I saw that, was to go to the store and got a package of toothpaste. I put two in my special place and the other ones where he could find them.

Since then, when I saw his all bent, it did not bothered me; it was not mine....... but out of courtesy (non- classic ocd) I made his look nice and straight ;-)

Actually he used one sink and I used another one, so it was all good about that subject.

I never told him what I had done It was not needed as it is an small stuff, and I do not want to sweat small stuff if I can help it.

Usarian is a good guy, so keep him, and the bees in the hive! ;-)

Usarian....... Stop trying to poke beehives....... They might get you good one of this days! Instead get flowers for the bee's keeper....... ;-)

I am glad your kids are doing well.

.

Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW AOL.com.

[Guest guest]

Hi e,

At 11:48 AM 11/30/2008, you wrote:

When we first got

married I had no idea just how literal Usarian was. Since the

running example is money based, I will continue suit. Let's say we

had done the budget and Usarian would say there is Forty dollars this

week for groceries. I would be ecstatic to come home and announce

that I had been able, through all sorts of scrimping and saving and

coupon clipping to keep groceries at forty bucks. When Usarian saw

the receipt and it read $40.35 he would completely flip out.

Accusing me of lying and being dishonest. I would then be hurt and

feel under appreciated because it had taken a lot of work for me to keep

groceries to $40.00

Yeah, no kidding! Your hubby is soooo lucky. I would have divorced mine -

and I mean seriously - if he did that to me more than ONCE. That must be

very hard so hard on your esteem.

There are folks, AS and sometimes N - I've seen NT do that on this list,

too - who have this all abiding NEED to CORRECT every freaking thing

someone else says, when it is apparent to all but the most socially deaf

person WHAT YOU MEAN.

You could come bursting in the door, and say, " Guess what? My

psychotherapist says I'm making really good progress " and Mr. or Ms.

Nitpicker would say, " She is not a medical doctor, therefore she is

not a psychotherapist. She is a therapist. "

Mr. or Ms. Nitpicker would have utterly, utterly failed to apprehend and

respond to the IMPORTANT message being conveyed here - your progress.

Rather than lauding the good news, and commending you on your good work,

they've just made you feel dumb for not knowing the difference between

the professions.

But yes, I must say AS does do it more often and they may feel they are

being " helpful " by informing you of correct terminology, but

they come off sounding like total unfeeling knobs who never miss an

opportunity to show off their superiority at your expense.

(35 cents

over never even entered my thought process I know that is probably

grating all the other AS people on the list as wrong too....Sorry).

No, not at all. I think that *most* AS folks on this list would

" know what you mean. " And certainly what normal, busy person

with many things on their mind is going to remember the $0.35? Good grief

- that is pennies, nickels and dimes on the floor of your car, for

Heaven's sakes!

If someone asked me what I paid for my nice shirt and I said, " I

paid forty dollars and thirty five cents for this, " they are going

to think I am a complete NERD and they would probably move away quickly

lest I started monologuing about the shirt's organically grown cotton

fabric and its " fair trade " label, and the fact that I bought

it last Friday, etc... There's this certain signal you send off with the

initial response that screams, " INSUFFERABLE BORE! "

The proper response is, " 40 bucks! " and then they'd probably

nod very approvingly and ask me if I minded telling them where I bought

it. Now maybe if you don't want anyone else buying the same shirt you

have, you *could* stick with the first response, LOL!

These

arguments took place over issues much more personal than the grocery

budget. It got to the point he was accusing me of lying so much

that the kids didn't even believe what I said. This is one of the

issues that nearly made me give up on our

marriage.

That is gravely serious, especially if the one spouse is being dissed in

front the children. Very, very unhealthy for the children. Not to mention

for YOU.

Wow you are the most giving person in the world to have put up with that

until you came to a point where you both knew he had AS. Wow, if that was

me, well here my own AS comes into play because there is no bloody way on

Earth that I would tolerate that for as long as you did. Well also,

perhaps because I was in an extremely abusive first marriage when I was

19, and once I extricated myself from that horror, I vowed, " never

again! "

Usarian still often

does not believe me. It often comes down to his memory, which is

not the greatest on many things. It can be so frustrating to tell

somebody something that is the God's honest truth and still have them not

believe you because they don't remember things.

That kind of crap can really grind away at your self confidence and self

esteem and when you loose that, you will not be treated with respect by

anyone.

I had a bit of that issue with my own hubby, and also friends who I

worked with on a volunteer basis. Once you get to my age - 50+ - nobody's

memory is that great. But the thing is, I know what I know and what I

don't know I will freely say, " uh, don't take my word for this as I

don't remember this clearly. " My memory is still pretty damn good

for my age. So I got sick of arguing and now I just say, " Don't

believe it? Prove it, then. Otherwise, this is how it is. "

Sometimes I'll also say, usually in a joking way, " Look, I'll own my

own dementia and you own yours. I'm not owning your dementia too! "

Of course what works for me may not work for others but that is how I

deal with it, with humour - and firmness.

- Helen

[Guest guest]

Hi Usarian and e!

I am glad you enjoy the mail, every time I think about that story(ies) I laugh as well.

Both my brothers are dearly loved by me. They both are opposite, but both are fun to visit.

If we go out to eat, ones tells me what I should order, so he can eat it. And the others asks me what do I suggest?

While I am suggesting to one what he could try, the other one is telling the waitress what I am having....... Yes you got it right, the exact brother wants my suggestions, the none exact brothers wants to order for me.

While the exact brother is reprimanding my none exact brother for doing that to me, I am telling the waitress what to bring me....... And tells her to leave the orders as each of us has asked for....... So usually there will be fours orders for three people....... We share the extra one or at lest try a bite from it. Trust me, my none exact brother loves food!

I usually ask for a salad or an appetizer as my main dish....... all depends what is good.

At times, I can be peaky with food. Yet I will always try others things, always, even if at times they have made me gag!

They do this with me, behaving like that, not sister or mother.

It is funny, do not know why they do that, but they are themselves when they are with me.

I like them both, and love them both as well!

!....... Wondering if the person who created the saying "It's raining cats and dogs was delirious!?

Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW AOL.com.

[Guest guest]

Helen Foisy wrote:

> You could come bursting in the door, and say, " Guess what? My

> psychotherapist says I'm making really good progress " and Mr. or Ms.

> Nitpicker would say, " She is not a medical doctor, therefore she is not

> a psychotherapist. She is a therapist. "

>

> Mr. or Ms. Nitpicker would have utterly, utterly failed to apprehend and

> respond to the IMPORTANT message being conveyed here - your progress.

> Rather than lauding the good news, and commending you on your good work,

> they've just made you feel dumb for not knowing the difference between

> the professions.

Speak affect [miscommunication] read information then

speak information [confusion] read ?????

Seen like that there is little surprise.

Read as affect not information what is this " Guess what? My

psychotherapist says I'm making really good progress "

Maybe tone of voice matters too and so on.

Is there a way to avoid the problem, start a different kind of dialog?

[Guest guest]

>>Helen said: You could come bursting in the door, and say, "Guess what? My psychotherapist says I'm making really good progress" and Mr. or Ms. Nitpicker would say, "She is not a medical doctor, therefore she is not a psychotherapist. She is a therapist."<<

Helen, You describe my mother, Mrs. Nitpicker. I didn't know you had met her. LOL

[Guest guest]

Hi Helene,

This is one of the events of our marriage that has lived in infamy, but there are a couple things that are important that are typically omitted..

The 35 cents (or whatever the amount was) caused a cascading bounce effect in our checking account at the time. The first of many many such experiences due to "rounding".

Secondly, my wife is well renown for her rounding and typically acknowledges it.. it's kind of had a balancing effect between my extreme specifics and her extreme generalities.

We've learned each other (uh oh, she's just come in to check on what I'm writing.. oh look at the time!)

Usarian

From: Helen Foisy

Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 1:54 PM

To: aspires-relationships

Subject: Re: Fighting Fair- Examples of Unfair fighting

Hi e,At 11:48 AM 11/30/2008, you wrote:

When we first got married I had no idea just how literal Usarian was. Since the running example is money based, I will continue suit. Let's say we had done the budget and Usarian would say there is Forty dollars this week for groceries. I would be ecstatic to come home and announce that I had been able, through all sorts of scrimping and saving and coupon clipping to keep groceries at forty bucks. When Usarian saw the receipt and it read $40.35 he would completely flip out. Accusing me of lying and being dishonest. I would then be hurt and feel under appreciated because it had taken a lot of work for me to keep groceries to $40.00Yeah, no kidding! Your hubby is soooo lucky. I would have divorced mine - and I mean seriously - if he did that to me more than ONCE. That must be very hard so hard on your esteem.There are folks, AS and sometimes N - I've seen NT do that on this list, too - who have this all abiding NEED to CORRECT every freaking thing someone else says, when it is apparent to all but the most socially deaf person WHAT YOU MEAN.You could come bursting in the door, and say, "Guess what? My psychotherapist says I'm making really good progress" and Mr. or Ms. Nitpicker would say, "She is not a medical doctor, therefore she is not a psychotherapist. She is a therapist."Mr. or Ms. Nitpicker would have utterly, utterly failed to apprehend and respond to the IMPORTANT message being conveyed here - your progress. Rather than lauding the good news, and commending you on your good work, they've just made you feel dumb for not knowing the difference between the professions. But yes, I must say AS does do it more often and they may feel they are being "helpful" by informing you of correct terminology, but they come off sounding like total unfeeling knobs who never miss an opportunity to show off their superiority at your expense.

(35 cents over never even entered my thought process I know that is probably grating all the other AS people on the list as wrong too....Sorry). No, not at all. I think that *most* AS folks on this list would "know what you mean." And certainly what normal, busy person with many things on their mind is going to remember the $0.35? Good grief - that is pennies, nickels and dimes on the floor of your car, for Heaven's sakes!If someone asked me what I paid for my nice shirt and I said, "I paid forty dollars and thirty five cents for this," they are going to think I am a complete NERD and they would probably move away quickly lest I started monologuing about the shirt's organically grown cotton fabric and its "fair trade" label, and the fact that I bought it last Friday, etc... There's this certain signal you send off with the initial response that screams, "INSUFFERABLE BORE!" The proper response is, "40 bucks!" and then they'd probably nod very approvingly and ask me if I minded telling them where I bought it. Now maybe if you don't want anyone else buying the same shirt you have, you *could* stick with the first response, LOL!

These arguments took place over issues much more personal than the grocery budget. It got to the point he was accusing me of lying so much that the kids didn't even believe what I said. This is one of the issues that nearly made me give up on our marriage.That is gravely serious, especially if the one spouse is being dissed in front the children. Very, very unhealthy for the children. Not to mention for YOU.Wow you are the most giving person in the world to have put up with that until you came to a point where you both knew he had AS. Wow, if that was me, well here my own AS comes into play because there is no bloody way on Earth that I would tolerate that for as long as you did. Well also, perhaps because I was in an extremely abusive first marriage when I was 19, and once I extricated myself from that horror, I vowed, "never again!"

Usarian still often does not believe me. It often comes down to his memory, which is not the greatest on many things. It can be so frustrating to tell somebody something that is the God's honest truth and still have them not believe you because they don't remember things. That kind of crap can really grind away at your self confidence and self esteem and when you loose that, you will not be treated with respect by anyone. I had a bit of that issue with my own hubby, and also friends who I worked with on a volunteer basis. Once you get to my age - 50+ - nobody's memory is that great. But the thing is, I know what I know and what I don't know I will freely say, "uh, don't take my word for this as I don't remember this clearly." My memory is still pretty damn good for my age. So I got sick of arguing and now I just say, "Don't believe it? Prove it, then. Otherwise, this is how it is."Sometimes I'll also say, usually in a joking way, "Look, I'll own my own dementia and you own yours. I'm not owning your dementia too!" Of course what works for me may not work for others but that is how I deal with it, with humour - and firmness. - Helen

[Guest guest]

At 03:01 PM 11/30/2008, Tim wrote:

>Speak affect [miscommunication] read information then

>speak information [confusion] read ?????

>

>Seen like that there is little surprise.

>

>Read as affect not information what is this " Guess what? My

>psychotherapist says I'm making really good progress "

>Maybe tone of voice matters too and so on.

>

>Is there a way to avoid the problem, start a different kind of dialog?

I see what you are getting at here, Tim. " Guess what? " is simply a

segue, you aren't really being asked to guess at all. See, I hadn't

even thought of that. I would just tune that out and fast forward to

the " body " of the message, the friend's or partner's obvious elation

at being told they are making good progress.

But if I was still stuck at " Guess what? " I suppose great confusion

could ensue, similar to trying to communicate with someone from a

very different culture, who speaks a completely different language

with no common roots, and who uses very different facial expressions

and body language to connote the same messages. They would be trying

to break down the whole message into its parts, to make sense of it.

And somewhere along the line, once they got unstuck from the " Guess

What? " they may start thinking - aloud - " oh, wait, the therapist is

not a doctor..... "

Many years ago I took an assertiveness training class and one of the

things I was taught was to check out assumptions. If you don't know

what someone means, ask for clarification. Mind you , you'd still

need to be able to at least make partial sense of the information

you'd received before you could ask the appropriate question, and not

come off as uncaring about your friend or partner's good news. What

would you suggest to help avoid a disaster here, Tim? Others?

- Helen

[Guest guest]

Are you TRYING to make us look bad!?

LOL

Usarian

From: Tim Channon

Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 3:01 PM

To: aspires-relationships

Subject: Re: Fighting Fair- Examples of Unfair fighting

Helen Foisy wrote:> You could come bursting in the door, and say, "Guess what? My> psychotherapist says I'm making really good progress" and Mr. or Ms.> Nitpicker would say, "She is not a medical doctor, therefore she is not> a psychotherapist. She is a therapist."> > Mr. or Ms. Nitpicker would have utterly, utterly failed to apprehend and> respond to the IMPORTANT message being conveyed here - your progress.> Rather than lauding the good news, and commending you on your good work,> they've just made you feel dumb for not knowing the difference between> the professions.Speak affect [miscommunication] read information thenspeak information [confusion] read ?????Seen like that there is little surprise.Read as affect not information what is this "Guess what? Mypsychotherapist says I'm making really good progress"Maybe tone of voice matters too and so on.Is there a way to avoid the problem, start a different kind of dialog?

[Guest guest]

At 04:20 PM 11/30/2008, you wrote:

Are you TRYING to

make us look bad!?

LOL

Usarian

No, really I'm not. <smiles!>

But, in all seriousness, like the school yard ditty, " what you say

is what you are, " when I speak of these things, they usually come

from painfully embarrassing first hand recollections of things *I* said

and did, when I was much younger. I droned on and on. I corrected people.

And didn't understand why folks didn't seem to appreciate my natural

intelligence and amazing powers of recall for all manner of facts.

<sheepish grins!>

- Helen

[Guest guest]

if some one came bursting through a door and said..." guess what my therapist just said"?

my response woul dbe to say " i dont know"

my learned adaptive response is to say nothing as the person is going to tell me anyway.

and my re-hearsed response whenever any sentence is put to me that starts with the word "guess" is nearly always....."good"

however with so many people calling themselves therapists today i would like to know what kind of therapist one is dealing with.

37 m diagnosed AS...always wary of therapists.

[Guest guest]

At 04:38 PM 11/30/2008, wrote:

>if some one came bursting through a door and said... " guess what my

>therapist just said " ?

>

> my response woul dbe to say " i dont know "

>

>my learned adaptive response is to say nothing as the person is

>going to tell me anyway.

, you made me smile.....

>and my re-hearsed response whenever any sentence is put to me that

>starts with the word " guess " is nearly always..... " good "

>

>however with so many people calling themselves therapists today i

>would like to know what kind of therapist one is dealing with.

Fair enough. I see what you and Tim are getting at. Your perspective

is very important in this group as you help " decode " " Aspergese " to

the non AS members.

The trick, gleaned from long, painful personal trail and error, is to

say it in a way that doesn't sort of take the air out of the other

person's happy balloon. But U and Tim really do highlight some things

that I have long forgotten myself, the differences in what is being

conveyed and what is being received by the other person.

Experience has taught me that it's best to wait on trying to find out

the answer. Perhaps the person will tell me later what kind of

therapist, without me even asking, if I wait. And if not, there are

always ways I can tactfully ask, later. Eg. " would you mind if I ask

the name of your therapist? He/she sounds like a good one. " Then

immediately Google the professional when I get home.

But even if I thought that my friend or partner might be under some

mis-apprehension as to this " expert's " credentials, unless I had the

feeling that my friend or partner was being swindled or harmed, I

would conclude that the positive feedback of this ersatz professional

was every bit as valuable to my friend or partner, whether or not

their " therapist " had spent 8 years in University.

- Helen

[Guest guest]

Sorry, that was actually directed at Tim..

-U

From: Helen Foisy

Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 4:23 PM

To: aspires-relationships

Subject: Re: Fighting Fair- Examples of Unfair fighting

At 04:20 PM 11/30/2008, you wrote:

Are you TRYING to make us look bad!? LOLUsarianNo, really I'm not. <smiles!>But, in all seriousness, like the school yard ditty, "what you say is what you are," when I speak of these things, they usually come from painfully embarrassing first hand recollections of things *I* said and did, when I was much younger. I droned on and on. I corrected people. And didn't understand why folks didn't seem to appreciate my natural intelligence and amazing powers of recall for all manner of facts.<sheepish grins!> - Helen

[Guest guest]

Helen Foisy wrote:

> The trick, gleaned from long, painful personal trail and error, is to

> say it in a way that doesn't sort of take the air out of the other

> person's happy balloon.

I wish I knew the answer, happy balloon is a good way to put it.

Probably learn to spot it and play accordingly. It's one of those things

that comes with maturity, growing out of the earnest angry wound up.

To get from A to B, that is the problem.

Alternatively, to B or not to B that is the question.

[Guest guest]

Hi , Usarian at the keyboard, but e's right next to me.

We read your last email together and laughed through the whole thing. (The ten cent story is identical IDENTICAL to a friend of ours in upstate NY)

We were just chatting about how much aspires has meant to us in the last few weeks since we joined. When e signed up we had hit a crisis we hadn't been at in a long time.. if anythign we had put it on the backburner and let it simmer until there wasn't any water left in the pot.

You all, every one of you, have helped us in ways I don’t think we even know yet. This is the first time we have had a community around us.

We appreciate you all very very much,

Usarian & e