Re: Re: anyone else out there?

[Guest guest]

Barb,

This is a big lay guess here. Might have something to do with the state of your

adrenals? Maybe depends on how washed out they are? I have the same experience

lately. Mostly I get a wee bit of a boost; but sometimes not or as you say, just

get very tired. I had an ASI test done and my adrenals are at the bottom. Coffee

is not supposed to be good for adrenals at all and I only use it when I'm forced

to do some work and have no energy or concentration. I wonder too if there is

something here to do with blood sugar issues. I read a recent artcile that

alluded to coffee being good for balancing blood sugar? Will try and locate

that. But if that too were part of the energy issues?

Sam

I've noticed that coffee makes me sleepy many times and I test allergic to

it, but I still drink a small cup in the am, then sometimes I lay back down

until time to go to work. Sometimes it is stimulating and sometimes makes me

sleepy. If my grandmother woke up in the middle of the night, she had a cup of

coffee and went back to bed, so maybe it's genetic or something.

[Guest guest]

What you may be experiencing with coffee is it's ability to " mask "

other symptoms and complaints. It essentially " replaces "

environmental reactions with its own. Nicotine is another mask,

especially for those with chemical sensititivies.

I know it sounds counter-intuitive because both can be severe

reactors for us. But caffeine (this includes chocolate) and nicotine

can " overwhelm " the body of some people and essentially " cover

up " the environmental reactions. I've had a number of clients who

feel better while smoking because when they quit their reactivity

to their environment is overwhelming. Nicotine and caffeine block

much of it and they report " feeling better. "

Check out 's testimony on the role of masking with

Gulf War Veterns at:

http://veterans.house.gov/hearings/schedule106/oct99/10-26-

99/miller.htm

Or download her QEESI evaluation form from:

http://familymed.uthscsa.edu/qeesi.pdf One of the key sets of

questions for evaluating chemical intolerance is about masking.

Nobody could achieve a peer reviewed and publish procedure

with statistical validity until Dr included masking by caffene,

nicotine, and other substances in QEESI.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

Barb,

This is a big lay guess here. Might have something to do with the state of

your adrenals? Maybe depends on how washed out they are? I have the

same experience lately. Mostly I get a wee bit of a boost; but sometimes

not or as you say, just get very tired. I had an ASI test done and my

adrenals are at the bottom. Coffee is not supposed to be good for

adrenals at all and I only use it when I'm forced to do some work and

have no energy or concentration. I wonder too if there is something here

to do with blood sugar issues. I read a recent artcile that alluded to coffee

being good for balancing blood sugar? Will try and locate that. But if that

too were part of the energy issues?

Sam

I've noticed that coffee makes me sleepy many times and I test allergic to

it, but I still drink a small cup in the am, then sometimes I lay back down

until time to go to work. Sometimes it is stimulating and sometimes

makes me sleepy. If my grandmother woke up in the middle of the night,

she had a cup of coffee and went back to bed, so maybe it's genetic or

something.

[Guest guest]

Thanks very much for this information Carl. It is eye-opening. I've noticed that

a small amount of coffee would give me more energy for a while, but also

sometimes I would feel emotionally like my old self. It might not last for more

than an hour or so. And then if I started to drink coffee every day after a

while that would not happen as much.

Sam

 

What you may be experiencing with coffee is it's ability to " mask "

other symptoms and complaints. It essentially " replaces "

environmental reactions with its own. Nicotine is another mask,

especially for those with chemical sensititivies.

,_._,___

[Guest guest]

She doesn't say which part of the body is the mechanism, as best

I remember, but I'll ask her.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

Carl, haven't read that for awhile, is the masking effect based on brain

responces?

>

> What you may be experiencing with coffee is it's ability to " mask "

> other symptoms and complaints. It essentially " replaces "

> environmental reactions with its own. Nicotine is another mask,

> especially for those with chemical sensititivies.

>

> I know it sounds counter-intuitive because both can be severe

> reactors for us. But caffeine (this includes chocolate) and nicotine

> can " overwhelm " the body of some people and essentially " cover

> up " the environmental reactions. I've had a number of clients who

> feel better while smoking because when they quit their reactivity

> to their environment is overwhelming. Nicotine and caffeine block

> much of it and they report " feeling better. "

>

> Check out 's testimony on the role of masking with

> Gulf War Veterns at:

> http://veterans. house.gov/hearings/schedule106/oct99/10-26-

> 99/miller.htm

>

[Guest guest]

Sam,

Good observation. Not only is that part of " masking " but you also

described what Dr says is a cornerstone to addiction of

coffee, cigarettes, chocolate and even street drugs. It is also

relevant to several discussions here recently about how stopping

mold exposure makes some of us feel even worse, at least for

awhile.

Using your example, you drink a little coffee in the morning for

more energy and to feel better. You notice (perhaps only slightly)

when it fades. So some of us drink a little more. Others of us go

back to bed. You continue those small " doses " to keep the good

feelings coming. Those of us who go back to bed may not

connect that need as a result of drinking the coffee because we

felt so much better at first but we go back to bed to feel better.

Partaking for the purpose of a little pleasure is something we

easily understand. What isn't so obvious is why we continue or

we stop. Dr says both opposites of behavior occur for the

same reason: Avoiding the pain of withdrawl more than our

seeking pleasure.

There have been several conversations here lately about getting

worse after stopping exposure to mold. Yes, the detoxing can

take awhile. Others may call it a " healing crises. " Both of which

can be true. But consider the possibility of the effects of mold

exposure being masked, but only until a certain point at which the

" pain " can no longer be ignored or the " mask " becomes

insufficient.

You aren't intentionally continuing exposure to mold like you do

with coffee, but the end result is similar. Which means that

stopping the exposure to mold will also remove the " masking "

effect and you feel miserable. You desperately want to feel better

so what do you do? You feel absolutely lousy in the mold but feel

just as bad, if not worse, when you leave the mold. Coffee or

nicotine helps reduce the pain. For awhile. Then you want more. I

had a client years ago who sold her house shortly after we got the

mold remediated. When I asked why she said - and I'll never

forget this - " I don't enjoy being here now because it doesn't feel

like home anymore. "

Dr describes these two opposite behaviors when

responding to the pain of an external exposure (say, mold) or an

internal exposure (drugs, coffee, nicotine): Continue seeking

more (addiction) to stop the withdrawal pain or continue extreme

avoidance (abdiction) to prevent the pain to begin with.

Consider the behavior of ex-smokers. While smoking their

attitude is nothing will get in their way of smoking when and

where they please. But once they stop then they flip to the

extreme opposite - don't come near me if you've even been

around cigarette smoke! The first is addiction. The second is

abdiction (avoidance).

You can read more about this and its connection to her TILT

concept at:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1314940/

or the same text but from Environmenatl Health Perspectives:

http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/docs/2005/113-12/niehsnews.html

Here is a brief summary: " Responses may manifest as addictive

or abdictive (avoidant) behaviors. In some affected individuals,

overlapping responses to common chemical, food, and drug

exposures, as well as habituation to recurrent exposures, may

hide (mask) responses to particular triggers. "

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

Thanks very much for this information Carl. It is eye-opening. I've

noticed that a small amount of coffee would give me more energy for a

while, but also sometimes I would feel emotionally like my old self. It

might not last for more than an hour or so. And then if I started to drink

coffee every day after a while that would not happen as much.

Sam

What you may be experiencing with coffee is it's ability to " mask "

other symptoms and complaints. It essentially " replaces "

environmental reactions with its own. Nicotine is another mask,

especially for those with chemical sensititivies.

,_._,___

[Guest guest]

Hi Carl,

I would like to take this addiction discussion in a slightly different

direction. My sick kid has the Dr. Shoemaker " dreaded genotype " (I do

too, but am not sick) which means multisusceptible and low MSH

susceptibility. As I understand things, once your MSH (a master

hormone) gets stuck on low, and this can happen from a biotoxin trigger

(s like mold, chemicals, lyme, etc., then all sorts of other things go

out of whack in your body, INCLUDING your body's own natural opiates/

endorphins production so these people naturally seek drugs/alcohol/risky

behavior just to help them feel normal, their sense of pain gets

heightened, their melatonin gets suppressed so sleep becomes an issue,

and all these things and more kind of operate in a vicious cycle...

It made me wonder what other things can go out of whack besides MSH that

would lead to drug/alcohol addiction....

Sue

>Sam,

>

>Good observation. Not only is that part of " masking " but you also

>described what Dr says is a cornerstone to addiction of

>

[Guest guest]

Sue,

I fully agree with the direction you are taking. 1. It is physiological

and not " just psychological " or a personal preference, although

preference does play a role. 2. Because it is physiological, there

are multiple mechanisms both outside and inside the body that

could be included.

Which is another reason it can be so difficult to diagnose and

treat. And why we have such difficulty dealing with it on a

personal level (and others understanding it) when the " perfect

storm " of multiplicity hits us.

Sometimes the best action is counter-intuitive so we do things

which harm, despite our intent to heal. Like pilots when they

encounter " white out " conditions while flying. All their senses,

balance, and experience tells them they are flying level, but the

instrument panel shows they are banking hard left and

descending fast. The event needs to be recognized out of all the

other possibilities, appropriate action determined, then pilots

trained to recognize the condition in real-time and respond

appropriately. We have almost none of that with environmental

exposures. Until pilots did, they were blamed for the crashes just

like we are blamed for what we experience.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

Hi Carl,

I would like to take this addiction discussion in a slightly different

direction. My sick kid has the Dr. Shoemaker " dreaded genotype " (I do

too, but am not sick) which means multisusceptible and low MSH

susceptibility. As I understand things, once your MSH (a master

hormone) gets stuck on low, and this can happen from a biotoxin trigger

(s like mold, chemicals, lyme, etc., then all sorts of other things go

out of whack in your body, INCLUDING your body's own natural

opiates/

endorphins production so these people naturally seek

drugs/alcohol/risky

behavior just to help them feel normal, their sense of pain gets

heightened, their melatonin gets suppressed so sleep becomes an issue,

and all these things and more kind of operate in a vicious cycle...

It made me wonder what other things can go out of whack besides MSH

that

would lead to drug/alcohol addiction....

Sue

>Sam,

>

>Good observation. Not only is that part of " masking " but you also

>described what Dr says is a cornerstone to addiction of

>

----------

The following section of this message contains a file attachment

prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format.

If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any other MIME-compliant system,

you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer.

If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.

---- File information -----------

File: DEFAULT.BMP

Date: 15 Jun 2009, 23:10

Size: 358 bytes.

Type: Unknown

[Guest guest]

Jeanine,

It makes logical sense but I have no idea if that is actually what

happens in our brain.

Here's where I'm sure I'll get a lot of static about from some in

this group but I'll say it anyway. And this, in no way, is a criticism

of your post. I like your searching and your thinking. Keep it up!

Your previous post about " masking mycotoxins " was priceless!

And you've done awesome work to get the safest place possible

your circumstances allow.

Sometimes our necessary interest in medical details and

authoritative " proofs " become a distraction (addiction?) from the

practical actions we need to initially take to take care of

ourselves. I'm especially addressing the major questions for

those new to this experience of how to get well without leaving

the moldy house.

Yes, I find it fascinating to learn if the dopamine hypothesis you

propose is what is happening. Yes, I'd love to know exactly how

addiction to ingestable and inhalable substances is created. I'd

also like to know how what we are taught about our bodies and

our buildings influence our beliefs, and thus support decisions

leading to our harm.

Yes, the medicine and science can be critical to many of us

before we can get well.

But when it comes to taking care of myself, such as " do I stay or

do I go " from my home or that of my relatives or a hotel room, I

don't care about all the above.

First, I go, to do whatever is necessary to stop the exposure -

whether it is from mold proteins, spores, mycotoxins, masked

mycotoxins or voodoo. I don't care what it is. I must first find a

" safe haven. "

It's not always easy and not always possible, but if I wait for the

science to catch up with my experience before I take charge of

my life then I'll lose even more of my life than I already did. If I

wait for someone to give me permission to leave, or for an

authority to tell me the meaning of my experience, I'll waste even

more of it. If I wait for someone to tell me to leave a burning

building instead of fleeing on my own volition, I lose my life.

Yes, let's push for the science and the medicine. Yes, let's learn

all we can so we can do a better job and get well. But, first, let us

not be distracted away from the simple, practical actions we need

to stop exposures so THEN we are able to utilize the medical and

scientific advances to take care of ourselves and to heal. Those

of you who are " nomads " because your safe haven keeps getting

contaminated know what I mean. That's why you are a nomad.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

heres a example of the point I'm trying to make.

if toxic mold exposure causes dopamine loss than maybe we crave caffine to make

up for that.

if a person takes a drug that causes dopamine overproduction, maybe that fells

good or gives them more energy but maybe some chemicals ot toxins in that drug

can ot just the over expression of dopamine might than cause a lack of dopamine

when they come down off that drug ,and no understanding how they may be hurting

there brain and just wanting that felling again leads them to doing it again and

eventually the toxins may cause permentant damage we we may have from

mycotoxin/other toxins exposures getting to the brain.

both might be considered a addiction but we might just be striveing to get a

normal dopamine responce while addict's our striveing to get that over

expression of dopamine cause it felt good, but later on in their addiction if

they end up with dopamine loss than their addiction would be fueled even more so

to make up for that.

does that make sence?

> >

> > Sam,

> >

> > Good observation. Not only is that part of " masking " but you also

> > described what Dr says is a cornerstone to addiction of

> > coffee, cigarettes, chocolate and even street drugs. It is also

> > relevant to several discussions here recently about how stopping

> > mold exposure makes some of us feel even worse, at least for

> > awhile.

> >

> > Using your example,

>

----------

The following section of this message contains a file attachment

prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format.

If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any other MIME-compliant system,

you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer.

If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.

---- File information -----------

File: DEFAULT.BMP

Date: 15 Jun 2009, 23:10

Size: 358 bytes.

Type: Unknown