Re: Alek, Run to Home Depot

September 9, 2009

Not sure if you should rip out or not, but if you need protection, you can also

pick up at Home Depot, disposable coveralls that you can wear and then throw

away, Tyvec or other brand. Now are in paint department..all Home Depots are

the same. Not expensive.

>

> Hi Alek,

>

> If you can see ONE wall of black mold, around your bathtub, it means that ALL

of the walls around, and UNDER your bathtub, have black mold behind the tiles.

For a thorough remediation, the tub should be taken out of the bathroom, and

September 9, 2009

Joe,

Excellent details for Alek. One improvement. Someone

experienced in assessing mold jobs who will NOT be doing the

work should determine the scope of the job. That scope is what

2-3 remediators should bid on. Otherwise each will have a

different bid based on how much they decide to charge you.

Typical ranges I've seen for a bathroom like you described would

be from $900 to $6000 or more. Have them competitively bid

apples to apples with the apple defined by someone who won't be

doing the work and who has your personal needs in mind.

All the rest is fine (with only minor quibbling!) <grin>

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> Hi Alek,

>

> If you can see ONE wall of black mold, around your bathtub, it means that ALL

of the walls around, and

> UNDER your bathtub, have black mold behind the tiles. For a thorough

remediation, the tub should be taken

> out of the bathroom, and turned upside down, to examine the bottom for mold.

Then, with the tub removed,

> start ripping off ALL the tiles around the bathtub, and keep ripping off tiles

in the rest of the bathroom, both

> walls and floor, and ceiling, until there is no visible mold. Then ripout the

walls with the black mold. Then

> examine, for visible mold, what was behind the walls, and repeat the above

process.

>

> Now for the bad news. Any remediator, while doing this process, will start

thinking that, ifhis bill, or

> estimate, for the job, is veryhigh, (thorough jobs cost money), then you will

tell him to postpone the work,

> until you can get other estimates, from remediators who will " low-ball the

estimate, to get the job. So, the

> only way to make sure that a proper job is done, is to get multiple estimates,

FROM THE GUY COMING

> TOMORROW, based on different degrees of mold infestation he might encounter.

>

> Mold in a house, is like cancer in a body. The surgeon, or remediator, has to

keep cutting, until it's all gone.

> When the surgeon cuts, the patient has to be asleep. When the remediator cuts,

you have to be awake, AND

> WATCHING HIM DO THE JOB, to make sure that he doesn't start thinking, that he

has cut enough, and he

> can COVER UP the rest of the remaining mold, since he will figure that " a

little bit of mold, covered so you

> can't see it, will never harm you " .

>

> So, Alek, run to Home Depot, or Lowes, and buy the most expensive filter mask

that they have for sale, for

> YOU to wear, during the remediation process. The kind that auto/house paint

sprayers wear, would be ideal.

> If they don't have that type of mask, get some " NIOSH approved N95 " masks. The

3M brand comes in a box

> of 20, for a reasonable price. Their stock number is " 8612F " . Throw out each

mask after ONE USE, or the

> mask, itself, can make you sick.

>

> The remediator WILL NOT, have an extra mask available, for you to wear. And if

he did, he wouldn't tell you,

> after you tell him that you will be looking over his shoulder all day. While

at Home Depot, pick up a

> flashlight, and large magnifying glass, if you don't already have them. You

need to really inspect the

> bathroom, AFTER the remediation, before you start putting things back

together.

>

> Also, don't let the remediator, put any of the removed moldy stuff into any

other room of your home, or you

> willcross-contaminate those rooms also. Everything ripped out should go

immediately out a window, or out

> your door, to the outside. Do NOT carry out the moldy stuff yourself. Doing

so, will make you sick, even

> wearing a mask.

>

> Last, but not least, sleep in a HOTEL ROOM every night, until 2 days after the

remediation is completed.

> Until then, there will still be enough mold and mycotoxins floating in the

air, to make you sick. When you get

> back to your home, first throw out all carpeting and rugs in the house, as

they will now contain a lethal

> amount of mold and mycotoxins, which, from the remediation, can never be

vacuumed enough to be safe.

> Then AFTER the carpeting is thrown out, wet mop the entire house. Then,

sometime after you have regained

> your strength, wet wipe all the walls in the home, making sure that the air

conditioning is on, during all wet

> mopping and wet wiping, to avoid starting a mold growth on your walls and

floor.

>

> So what are you doing still reading this email. Get to Home Depot, before they

close.

>

> Joe

> ................................................ ................

>

> Posted by: " Alek Rogachova " alekrog@... alekrog

> Mon Sep7,2009 5:15pm (PDT)

> Hi,

>

> I'm sorry- don't mean to stray from this topic, but I have a question

regarding this post.

>

September 9, 2009

I did not see an original post.

At 05:14 PM 9/8/2009, you wrote:

>If you can see ONE wall of black mold, around your bathtub, it means that ALL

of the walls around, and UNDER your bathtub, have black mold behind the tiles.

The remediation instructions are good ones.

However, the mold genre needs to be determined. There are two types of black

mold.

The one that is truly ugly is called " Black Mold " as a formal name.

The other one is what lay people will see every day in most bathrooms.

They are not the same. Far different.

The every day mold that are small black dots can be cleaned off with

scrubbing with soapy water, or clorox, if you must. No special face

mask is needed for this every day type of black colored mold.

As the cost difference is huge, you better be sure which you have.

WARNING: Black Mold has deadly spores. Do not inhale them.

Black Mold is mostly a northern mid west of the USA issue.

http://www.google.com/search?q=black+mold

September 9, 2009

Carl and Joe,

Thanks for knocking some sense into me. I've been putting the remediation off,

but now I realize I need to get rid of the mold ASAP. Great suggestions, I

wasn't aware of half this stuff, and we did get the N95 masks tonight.

My girlfriend called several mold remediators for estimates. The ones that

sounded knowledgeable said they would spray fungicides and/or anti-microbials

behind where they tear out the wall. A few said industrial grade fungicides, and

one said a " Bactine-like product " . My girlfriend is chemically sensitive and if

they spray these, I don't think she'll ever be able to come over again.

They told her the spraying of their fungicides & antimicrobials is

non-negotiable. Does this sound right? Is there an alternative to this either

of you can recommend?

Thanks,

Alek

From: Carl E. Grimes <grimes@...>

Subject: Re: [] Alek, Run to Home Depot

Date: Wednesday, September 9, 2009, 2:24 AM

Joe,

Excellent details for Alek. One improvement. Someone

experienced in assessing mold jobs who will NOT be doing the

work should determine the scope of the job. That scope is what

2-3 remediators should bid on. Otherwise each will have a

different bid based on how much they decide to charge you.

September 9, 2009

Carl & Alek,

To Alek first, if you do decide to stand over the remediators should there are

a few things that should be stated that I haven't seen covered so far. If you

are in the location where the mold is being agitated then your clothing will be

covered with mold spores and mycotoxins this is why personal protective

equipment (PPE) should be worn at all times during mold remediation like a Tyvek

suite which would need to be disposed of after use. Also you should cover any

mucus membrane and orifice as mold spores can get into ears and eyes and cause

issues in these locations as well. Finally make sure that the breathing mask is

rated for the filtration of Volatile Organic Compounds (VOCs). This should be

stated on the outside of the box or cartridges that you purchase and any N95

rated mask would be sufficient. The 3M half or full face mask with P-100

cartridges is good.

Carl: This is where the use of Dr. Close's protocol would actually save money,

and why it can be more effective.

" Last, but not least, sleep in a HOTEL ROOM every night, until 2 days after the

remediation is completed. Until then, there will still be enough mold and

mycotoxins floating in the air, to make you sick. When you get back to your

home, first throw out all carpeting and rugs in the house, as they will now

contain a lethal amount of mold and mycotoxins, which, from the remediation, can

never be vacuumed enough to be safe. Then AFTER the carpeting is thrown out, wet

mop the entire house. Then, sometime after you have regained your strength, wet

wipe all the walls in the home, making sure that the air conditioning is on,

during all wet mopping and wet wiping, to avoid starting a mold growth on your

walls and floor. "

*NOTE* The below statement is for example purposes only to continue a dialog

with Mr. Grimes about the use of a protocol Dr. close has developed. It is not

intended to be a statement of what will or even could happen, just a reflection

of the statements made and the difference between what is accepted now and the

protocol we are discussing.

The fact that all of the carpeting & rugs should be removed and disposed of

should not be necessary, and if this is industry best practices would again

validate Dr. Close in his statement that this could save a considerable amount

of money during remediation and would make his protocol superior. With the use

of Thieves oils being diffused the mold spores being thrown into the air should

be destroyed before they spread to other parts of the house. Again this will

get back to the information that Dr. Close will be sending you privately, I am

just using this post as an example so that you can see to some extent why we

feel his protocol is better. Also going on the assumption that you would need to

remove any carpeting and rugs from the house, this would also mean that either

you would have to throw away all of your cloths, bed sheets, comforters, and any

other cloth or porous material in your house or you would have to wash

everything thoroughly in some type of anti-fungal agent. In addition you would

have to have HEPA filtration after all of this to get any mold spores that were

floating in the air. As I believe there are some forms of aspergillus that have

been proven to remain in the air for up to 48 hours, not to mention potential

for additional cross contamination from removal of carpets and rugs and cleaning

of said clothing, assuming they have lethal levels of mycotoxins and mold spores

in them. So if you are looking at cost your costs have gone let say from a

median of $2500 to remove the contaminated material from your bathroom, to the

increased cost of replacing all the carpet in your house, getting a HEPA

filtration system, the time spent in the home cleaning and wiping down the walls

with wet wipes, the potential loss of clothing or expense of thorough cleaning,

and the possibility that you will still get sick for a while. If you total all

of that up you could be looking at assuming the HEPA filter only needs to run

for 1 day an additional $500 - $1000 in expenses for the remediation, this is

assuming time is money as well. After that then you have the added expense of

re-flooring any room where carpet was with either carpet or some form of

flooring and then you still have to put your bathroom back together.

Josh

>

> Joe, Excellent details for Alek. One improvement.

September 9, 2009

originally posted to a different thread

Posted by: " Alek Rogachova " alekrog@... alekrog

Mon Sep 7, 2009 5:15 pm (PDT)

Hi,

I'm

sorry- don't mean to stray from this topic, but I have a question

regarding this post. , would you be able to explain to me

(simplified version is fine) about how the mycotoxins will still be

around even if mold is removed? Or if you could point me to a file... I

tried googling this but can't find this information.

This

weekend I started to re-caulk my tub, found a whole wall of black mold

behind the tiles. Lived in a moldy house before, so I've been through

that health nightmare... want to get this remediated ASAP. Just want to

make sure it's done correctly.

I have a guy coming tomorrow

who says he's a certified mold remediator.. . I'm willing to rip out

the entire bathroom and walls if I need to, is this enough to eliminate

the mycotoxins?

Thanks for any information you might be able to

provide-

September 9, 2009

Black Mold is also an issue in the lowest southern State (hurricane alley) If

it is Black Mold you will not only need a respirator, but also goggles and a

tyveck suit as it is absorbed threw skin, eyes and respiratory systems.

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

________________________________

From: <pete-@...>

Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2009 11:25:32 PM

Subject: Re: [] Alek, Run to Home Depot

I did not see an original post.

At 05:14 PM 9/8/2009, you wrote:

>If you can see ONE wall of black mold, around your bathtub, it means that ALL

of the walls around, and UNDER your bathtub, have black mold behind the tiles.

September 9, 2009

,

Sorry, are you alright? You usually are " right on " but this one is all

wrong, especially considering your past posts.

* All mold can be removed the same way.

* There are about 20,000 species of black mold, not two.

* Knowing the species is sometimes important but the

genus is insufficient identification for such danger as you

state. E.g. Stachybotrys (genus) is insufficient as there

are several species. Chartarum is the species of concern.

* Black Mold is NOT a formal name. It is a generic " made

up " description which has captured the imagination and

fears of us people and the media to the point of becoming

a " name. "

* If " Black Mold " is so dangerous you ought to tell us which

of the genus and species it is, otherwise we have no way

of knowing how to avoid death.

* No mold spores are inherently deadly. Although any mold

spore in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong

person can be. And not always through inhalation. I'd be

more concerned about inhaling Aspergillus versicolor and

A. fumigatus than I would be be S. chartarum. But I'd

rather touch them and not touch S. chartarum.

* Stachybotrys chartarum is what is commonly referred as

the " toxic killer black mold " and it is not regional. It will

grow anywhere there is moisture for prolonged time on a

cellulose food source such as cardboard boxes and sheet

rock. It is more prevalent in hot, humid climates such as

Texas & Florida. But semi-arid, dry Colorado has more

than it's share.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

>

> I did not see an original post.

>

> At 05:14 PM 9/8/2009, you wrote:

> >If you can see ONE wall of black mold, around your bathtub, it means that ALL

of the walls around, and

> UNDER your bathtub, have black mold behind the tiles.

>

> The remediation instructions are good ones.

>

> However, the mold genre needs to be determined. There are two types of black

mold.

>

> The one that is truly ugly is called " Black Mold " as a formal name.

> The other one is what lay people will see every day in most bathrooms.

>

> They are not the same. Far different.

>

> The every day mold that are small black dots can be cleaned off with

> scrubbing with soapy water, or clorox, if you must. No special face

> mask is needed for this every day type of black colored mold.

>

> As the cost difference is huge, you better be sure which you have.

> WARNING: Black Mold has deadly spores. Do not inhale them.

>

> Black Mold is mostly a northern mid west of the USA issue.

>

> http://www.google.com/search? q=black+mold

>

September 9, 2009

I have seen MSDS on these, the ones I saw were high irritants, if she has MCS

then she would not be able to enter again. Ask for the MSDS ahead so you have

time before use to determine if these are going to affect you and her.

Ask for licenses, not all remediators are legit. Maybe someone here can help

depending on where you are.

Lowes, HD sells a 3m half respirator. They also sell the canisters for them.

They have the tyveck suit but without the hood, there is a seperate piece for

the head.

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

________________________________

From: Alek Rogachova <alekrog@...>

Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2009 11:46:35 PM

Subject: Re: [] Alek, Run to Home Depot

Carl and Joe,

Thanks for knocking some sense into me. I've been putting the remediation off,

but now I realize I need to get rid of the mold

September 9, 2009

Alek,

If spraying anything, especially with a chemically intolerant

occupant, is non-negotiable then don't negotiate by not hiring

them. In fact, if any part of the remediation is non-negotiable and

they won't discuss it, don't hire them unless they first sign a

written document accepting all medical liabilty for the life of you

and your girl friend. Non-negotiable usually means " I'm forcing

you to accept my methods because if you don't you'll get even

sicker. " It's fear based, not knowledge based, and cerainly not

with your needs in mind.

You need someone who understands the consensus standards

(which are minimums, not maximums) and who is also willing to

find out the needs of you and your girlfriend before doing

anything. The standards they use should be clearly identified and

explained to your satisfaction. They should then be adjusted to

meet your individual needs. Without that, you risk joining the

ranks of most on this group who hired a remediator in good faith

only to have that trust violated. (Usually through ignorance,

occasionally with malice).

The only " standards " which insist on using fungicides are those

written by companies whose business is based on using them.

All cognizant authorities strongly caution against the use of

fungicides for several reasons:

* They don't kill most of the mold.

* Dead mold is still a health problem.

* If the mold is removed there is nothing to kill.

* Fungicides and anti-microbials are designed to kill life

forms. People are life forms. The dose for mold is not

high enough to kill us but it sure can make us sick. Some

of us remain sick for years. Why replace a mold problem

with a chemical problem? Remove the problem.

There is a time and a place for anti-microbials, especially with

sewage. But not for mold.

I challenge anyone to find an authoritative source which is

independent of a product that advocates the use of fungicides as

non-negotiable or even preferable. Although of Thieves

Oil advocates diffusing their product, he also insists on first

removing the mold. Where we disagree is how to remove the

mold from the air.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

>

> Carl and Joe,

>

> Thanks for knocking some sense into me. I've been putting the remediation off,

but now I realize I need to

> get rid of the mold ASAP. Great suggestions, I wasn't aware of half this

stuff, and we did get the N95 masks

> tonight.

>

> My girlfriend called several mold remediators for estimates. The ones that

sounded knowledgeable said they

> would spray fungicides and/or anti-microbials behind where they tear out the

wall. A few said industrial

> grade fungicides, and one said a " Bactine-like product " . My girlfriend is

chemically sensitive and if they

> spray these, I don't think she'll ever be able to come over again.

>

> They told her the spraying of their fungicides & antimicrobials is

non-negotiable. Does this sound right? Is

> there an alternative to this either of you can recommend?

>

> Thanks,

> Alek

>

> From: Carl E. Grimes <grimes@...>

> Subject: Re: [] Alek, Run to Home Depot

> groups (DOT) com

> Date: Wednesday, September 9, 2009, 2:24 AM

>

> Joe,

>

> Excellent details for Alek. One improvement. Someone

>

> experienced in assessing mold jobs who will NOT be doing the

>

> work should determine the scope of the job. That scope is what

>

> 2-3 remediators should bid on. Otherwise each will have a

>

> different bid based on how much they decide to charge you.

>

September 9, 2009

Thank, Josh.

I look forward to receiving the information. For the record, it was

not me who said carpets must be removed. S520 is quite clear

about this.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

>

> Carl & Alek,

>

> To Alek first, if you do decide to stand over the remediators should there are

a few things that should be

> stated that I haven't seen covered so far. If you are in the location where

the mold is being agitated then your

> clothing will be covered with mold spores and mycotoxins this is why personal

protective equipment (PPE)

> should be worn at all times during mold remediation like a Tyvek suite which

would need to be disposed of

> after use. Also you should cover any mucus membrane and orifice as mold spores

can get into ears and eyes

> and cause issues in these locations as well. Finally make sure that the

breathing mask is rated for the

> filtration of Volatile Organic Compounds (VOCs). This should be stated on the

outside of the box or

> cartridges that you purchase and any N95 rated mask would be sufficient. The

3M half or full face mask with

> P-100 cartridges is good.

>

> Carl: This is where the use of Dr. Close's protocol would actually save money,

and why it can be more

> effective.

>

> " Last, but not least, sleep in a HOTEL ROOM every night, until 2 days after

the remediation is completed.

> Until then, there will still be enough mold and mycotoxins floating in the

air, to make you sick. When you get

> back to your home, first throw out all carpeting and rugs in the house, as

they will now contain a lethal

> amount of mold and mycotoxins, which, from the remediation, can never be

vacuumed enough to be safe.

> Then AFTER the carpeting is thrown out, wet mop the entire house. Then,

sometime after you have regained

> your strength, wet wipe all the walls in the home, making sure that the air

conditioning is on, during all wet

> mopping and wet wiping, to avoid starting a mold growth on your walls and

floor. "

>

> *NOTE* The below statement is for example purposes only to continue a dialog

with Mr. Grimes about the

> use of a protocol Dr. close has developed. It is not intended to be a

statement of what will or even could

> happen, just a reflection of the statements made and the difference between

what is accepted now and the

> protocol we are discussing.

>

> The fact that all of the carpeting & rugs should be removed and disposed of

should not be necessary, and if

> this is industry best practices would again validate Dr. Close in his

statement that this could save a

> considerable amount of money during remediation and would make his protocol

superior. With the use of

> Thieves oils being diffused the mold spores being thrown into the air should

be destroyed before they spread

> to other parts of the house. Again this will get back to the information that

Dr. Close will be sending you

> privately, I am just using this post as an example so that you can see to some

extent why we feel his protocol

> is better. Also going on the assumption that you would need to remove any

carpeting and rugs from the

> house, this would also mean that either you would have to throw away all of

your cloths, bed sheets,

> comforters, and any other cloth or porous material in your house or you would

have to wash everything

> thoroughly in some type of anti-fungal agent. In addition you would ha

> Josh

>

> >

> > Joe, Excellent details for Alek. One improvement.

>

September 9, 2009

Carl, what do you do after a sewer line back up with antimicrobial? Not to ask

for too lengthy an answer though as I do not have one now. I ask because when I

moved back to this area in 1990, my greataunt who was living here had had

several sewerline backups and was too old and frail health to deal with it, so

I had the plumbing repaired and I don't remember doing anything else. It backed

up in her basement, which is now *mine. Didn't know anything about any of this

then.

Workmen who were here probably just sprayed area down. I put all the wood

furniture that was down there at the time to the curb and more than ten years

later, when I joined this group, removed the carpeting from the basement steps,

although water did not reach carpet, but removed it out concern for the possible

airbourne contaminants that might have been in carpet from the flooding, which

hung around for days at a time due to my greataunts dimentia. She'd forget the

basement was flooded until I came over the discovered it. Just curious, should

biocide have been sprayed of whole house, and everyone leave the house or

something?

>> The only " standards " which insist on using fungicides are those

> written by companies whose business is based on using them.

>

> There is a time and a place for anti-microbials, especially with

> sewage. But not for mold.

>

September 9, 2009

Carl and All Others; I have posted on this subject several times before. You

are all missing the point of indoor pollution from microbial growht and water

damage. There is much more than just mold spores. I have copied an abstract

regarding this issue and pasted below. The fine and ultrafine particles shed by

both bacteria and mold colonies are among the major problems. These also

contain the toxins of both bacteria and molds. They permeated and attach to

materials in the environment. Oils will not get rid of this fraction. I will

lay odds that Dr. Close has not even examined this aspect of indoor

contamination. I urge you people to read, read and read some more to understand

the magniftude of this problem. The ultrafine particles enter the systemic

circulation via athe lungs and into the brain via the olfactory nerve and tract.

Also see: http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/74/3/585

I suggest that you go to Google.com, type in Reponen fungal fragments and be

surprised.

1: Sci Total Environ. 2009 Jan 1;407(2):806-14. Epub 2008 Nov 13. Links

Size-fractionated (1-->3)-beta-D-glucan concentrations aerosolized from

different moldy building materials.

Seo SC, Reponen T, Levin L, Grinshpun SA.

Center for Health-Related Aerosol Studies, Department of Environmental Health,

University of Cincinnati, Cincinnati, OH 45267-0056, USA.

Release of submicrometer-sized fungal fragments (<1.0 (micron) was discovered in

earlier studies, which investigated the aerosolization of spores from moldy

surfaces. However, the contribution of fungal fragments to total mold exposure

is poorly characterized. The purpose of this study was to investigate the

size-fractionated concentrations of particulate (1-->3)-beta-D-glucan and

numbers of particles aerosolized from the surface of artificially

mold-contaminated materials using a novel sampling methodology. Aspergillus

versicolor and Stachybotrys chartarum were grown on malt extract agar and

building materials (ceiling tiles and gypsum board) for one to six months.

Fungal particles released from these materials were collected size-selectively

by a newly developed Fragment Sampling System, and (1-->3)-beta-D-glucan in air

samples was analyzed by Limulus Amebocyte lysate (LAL) assay. The concentrations

of (1-->3)-beta-D-glucan varied from 0.4x10(0) to 9.8x10(2) ng m(-3) in the

fragment size and from 1.0x10(1) to 4.7x10(4) ng m(-3) in the spore size range.

Numbers of submicrometer-sized particles aerosolized from 6-month old cultures

were always significantly higher that those from 1-month old (P<0.001). This can

be attributed to increased dryness on the surface of material samples and an

increase in fungal biomass over time. The average fragment to spore ratios both

in particle numbers and (1-->3)-beta-D-glucan mass were higher for S. chartarum

than for A. versicolor. The results indicate that long-term mold damage in

buildings may lead to increased contribution of fragments to the total mold

exposure. Therefore, the health impact of these particles may be even greater

than that of spores, considering the strong association between numbers of fine

particles and adverse health effects reported in other studies. Furthermore, the

contribution of fragments may vary between species and appears to be higher for

S. chartarum than for A. versicolor.

Jack-Dwayne: Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Off: 916-745-4703

Cell: 575-937-1150

L. Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

916-745-4703 - Off

775-309-3994 - Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this message

(and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly prohibited

and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this message has been

served, please destroy the original message contents. If you have received this

message in error, please reply immediately to advise the sender of the

miscommunication and then delete the message and any copies you have printed.

Thank you in advance for your compliance.

September 9, 2009

Please everyone listen to the experts on this important topic as I physically

know very well what all those particals and mold toxins , by-products, bacteria,

etc can do to a person's body.

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

________________________________

From: " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2009 10:40:36 AM

Subject: [] Re: Alek, Run to Home Depot

Carl and All Others; I have posted on this subject several times before. You are

all missing the point of indoor pollution from microbial growht and water

damage. There is much more than just mold spores. I have copied an abstract

regarding this issue and pasted below. The fine and ultrafine particles shed by

both bacteria and mold colonies are among the major problems. These also contain

the toxins of both bacteria and molds. They permeated and attach to materials in

the environment. Oils will not get rid of this fraction. I will lay odds that

Dr. Close has not even examined this aspect of indoor contamination. I urge you

people to read, read and read some more to understand the magniftude of this

problem. The ultrafine particles enter the systemic circulation via athe lungs

and into the brain via the olfactory nerve and tract.

Also see: http://aem.asm. org/cgi/reprint/ 74/3/585

I suggest that you go to Google.com, type in Reponen fungal fragments and be

surprised.

1: Sci Total Environ. 2009 Jan 1;407(2):806- 14. Epub 2008 Nov 13. Links

Size-fractionated (1-->3)-beta- D-glucan concentrations aerosolized from

different moldy building materials.

Seo SC, Reponen T, Levin L, Grinshpun SA.

Center for Health-Related Aerosol Studies, Department of Environmental Health,

University of Cincinnati, Cincinnati, OH 45267-0056, USA.

Release of submicrometer- sized fungal fragments (<1.0 (micron) was discovered

in earlier studies, which investigated the aerosolization of spores from moldy

surfaces. However, the contribution of fungal fragments to total mold exposure

is poorly characterized. The purpose of this study was to investigate the

size-fractionated concentrations of particulate (1-->3)-beta- D-glucan and

numbers of particles aerosolized from the surface of artificially

mold-contaminated materials using a novel sampling methodology. Aspergillus

versicolor and Stachybotrys chartarum were grown on malt extract agar and

building materials (ceiling tiles and gypsum board) for one to six months.

Fungal particles released from these materials were collected size-selectively

by a newly developed Fragment Sampling System, and (1-->3)-beta- D-glucan in air

samples was analyzed by Limulus Amebocyte lysate (LAL) assay. The concentrations

of (1-->3)-beta- D-glucan varied from 0.4x10(0) to

9.8x10(2) ng m(-3) in the fragment size and from 1.0x10(1) to 4.7x10(4) ng

m(-3) in the spore size range. Numbers of submicrometer- sized particles

aerosolized from 6-month old cultures were always significantly higher that

those from 1-month old (P<0.001). This can be attributed to increased dryness on

the surface of material samples and an increase in fungal biomass over time. The

average fragment to spore ratios both in particle numbers and (1-->3)-beta-

D-glucan mass were higher for S. chartarum than for A. versicolor. The results

indicate that long-term mold damage in buildings may lead to increased

contribution of fragments to the total mold exposure. Therefore, the health

impact of these particles may be even greater than that of spores, considering

the strong association between numbers of fine particles and adverse health

effects reported in other studies. Furthermore, the contribution of fragments

may vary between species and appears to be

higher for S. chartarum than for A. versicolor.

Jack-Dwayne: Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/ Immunotoxicologi st/Fetaltoxicolo gist

www.drthrasher. org

toxicologist1@ msn.com

Off: 916-745-4703

Cell: 575-937-1150

L. Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@ msn.com

916-745-4703 - Off

775-309-3994 - Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this message

(and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly prohibited

and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this message has been

served, please destroy the original message contents. If you have received this

message in error, please reply immediately to advise the sender of the

miscommunication and then delete the message and any copies you have printed.

Thank you in advance for your compliance.

September 9, 2009

---

Carl: Thank you for clearing this up, I knew it was " all wrong " as far as

everything I had read. Glad you are paying attention and giving us the correct

information. D

In , " Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...> wrote:

>

> ,

>

> Sorry, are you alright? You usually are " right on " but this one is all

> wrong, especially considering your past posts.

>

> * All mold can be removed the same way.

> * There are about 20,000 species of black mold, not two.

> * Knowing the species is sometimes important but the

> genus is insufficient identification for such danger as you

> state. E.g. Stachybotrys (genus) is insufficient as there

> are several species. Chartarum is the species of concern.

> * Black Mold is NOT a formal name. It is a generic " made

> up " description which has captured the imagination and

> fears of us people and the media to the point of becoming

> a " name. "

> * If " Black Mold " is so dangerous you ought to tell us which

> of the genus and species it is, otherwise we have no way

> of knowing how to avoid death.

> * No mold spores are inherently deadly. Although any mold

> spore in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong

> person can be. And not always through inhalation. I'd be

> more concerned about inhaling Aspergillus versicolor and

> A. fumigatus than I would be be S. chartarum. But I'd

> rather touch them and not touch S. chartarum.

> * Stachybotrys chartarum is what is commonly referred as

> the " toxic killer black mold " and it is not regional. It will

> grow anywhere there is moisture for prolonged time on a

> cellulose food source such as cardboard boxes and sheet

> rock. It is more prevalent in hot, humid climates such as

> Texas & Florida. But semi-arid, dry Colorado has more

> than it's share.

>

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

>

> -----

> >

> > I did not see an original post.

> >

> > At 05:14 PM 9/8/2009, you wrote:

> > >If you can see ONE wall of black mold, around your bathtub, it means that

ALL of the walls around, and

> > UNDER your bathtub, have black mold behind the tiles.

> >

> > The remediation instructions are good ones.

> >

> > However, the mold genre needs to be determined. There are two types of black

mold.

> >

> > The one that is truly ugly is called " Black Mold " as a formal name.

> > The other one is what lay people will see every day in most bathrooms.

> >

> > They are not the same. Far different.

> >

> > The every day mold that are small black dots can be cleaned off with

> > scrubbing with soapy water, or clorox, if you must. No special face

> > mask is needed for this every day type of black colored mold.

> >

> > As the cost difference is huge, you better be sure which you have.

> > WARNING: Black Mold has deadly spores. Do not inhale them.

> >

> > Black Mold is mostly a northern mid west of the USA issue.

> >

> > http://www.google.com/search? q=black+mold

> >

>

September 9, 2009

Dr. Thrasher,

I have not seen your posts on this subject prior to this. I have looked at

the abstract that you posted and in truth it is beyond my knowledge to comment

on, I have however forwarded the information to Dr. Close to look at and I did

talk to him about it. He has in fact taken into consideration that particulate

matter is something to take into consideration when dealing with a moldy or mold

infested home. However on a practical level this is not something that we have

had the funding to examine in detail. There has been evidence in the samples

taken by Dr. Close that particulate matter is reduced but for the most part

examination of the effects of Thieves Oil on the particulate matter was outside

the scope of work performed.

Also you stated that these were less than 1 micron in size. In regards to

that when diffusing the Thieves oil with tested diffusers the Thieves oil is

atomized and aerosolized at 200 to 700 picometers or .0002 to .0007 microns

which means that the Thieves oil particles are of a sufficient size and if

diffused sufficiently fill the room to saturation so that they can deal with all

mold spores and particulate matter. That being said again the testing of the

effects of Thieves oil was outside the scope of work performed.

On another note, the Thieves oil has been tested for its antibacterial

properties using an ATP meter. These test were done by an independent source

and a copy of the data was sent to Dr. Close, and has proven to be an effective

at killing bacteria as well.

Josh

--- In , " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

wrote:

>

> Carl and All Others; I have posted on this subject several times before. You