helicobacter pylori

[Guest guest]

helicobacter pylori,stomach ulcers,PH dependent,mucus,

bacteria swin freely-high ph, constrained-low ph

http://www.pnas.org/content/106/34/14321.abstract

[Guest guest]

Hi Ian,

I am curious to know whether you did ever reach the point where the Betaine H Cl

gave you a warm feeling (which you call burn)?

The acid in the capsules, whilst strong enough to aid with digestion, is very

weak compared to what your own stomach should naturally produce, so I am not

surprised you could tolerate 40 tablets. What I feel dubious about is whether

looking out for that warm feeling is an adequate test for how much you need to

take. I have never experienced it either, though I have not been as daring as

you re capsule numbers! So I tend to take enough to experience normal, quiet

digestion and proper stomach emptying (currently 3-4 capsules, depending on the

protein content of the meal).

I also had screening for H Pylori, about 10 years ago, and it was positive. (It

was as part of some scientific survey so I wasn't offered any treatment.) A

couple of years later they repeated the test and it came back negative. The H

Pylori had gone away by itself, which the staff said was impossible, - but I was

living proof it was not impossible. Therefore there must be something flawed

about either the testing, or the theories about how to wipe out H Pylori. I

don't know what the state of my stomach acid production was at that time, but

apparently adequate levels can eradicate H Pylori.

Miriam

>

> After doing an experiment with Betaine HCl, I found my Stomach Acid to be very

low (given i swallowed 40x650mg tablets without burn).

>

> The protocol suggested that anyone who could consume 10 pills without burn

should test for H Pylori.

>

> Well I tested with Oxford Screening. Stool sample. Result cam back Positive!

>

> I'm now in the middle of Triple Therapy & my wife & kids tests have been sent

off.

>

[Guest guest]

when you post such information, even though you have posted the link before, will you post it again please because we are getting new members every day who could well be interested in trying this test to see if this could be their problem. Many thanks Luv - SheilaHere is the Betaine HCl test I did. Just to clarify, it is claimed that Excess Stomach Acid is extremely uncommon. Low Stomach Acid is very common & the symtoms of this cause Reflux & heartburn. This is due to the fact that insuficient Stomach Acid allows an overgrowth of bacteria. When food sits in the stomach being broken down by bacteria, it produces gas, which causes Reflux. Even weak Acid will burn delicate areas. If you are on Anti-Acids or Proton Pump Inhibitors or if you think you have Excess Stomach Acid or you have trouble digesting some foods, I definitely recommend you try this :Betaine Test Meal Instructions:

Eat ½ of meal

Take 2 capsules

Wait 1 minutes

Is stomach Warm?

If Yes, remember number, this is your standard

dose. Eat rest of meal

If No Take another capsule, wait 2 minutes, and so onStop at 10 capsules unless otherwise directed

If 10 capsules does not produce a warming sensation, then

you are very acid deficient or lack the ability to produce Hydrogen. Ask your doctor to test if you have H-Pylori. H-Pylori consumes hydrogen

and likewise limits creation of stomach acid.

Even if 10 capsules do not produce warming, they will be of big benefit improving food absorption and digestion -- Continue taking them.

If you reach 10 Betaine, you likely have significant stress toxins. I did the test & was able to take more than 10 without any warmth. I followed instruction & had the test for H Pylori, which was positive.Here's the link: http://dshedu.com/HowTo/Betaine/ Some more on Achloridia : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypochlorhydria This is what I buy :http://www.iherb.com/Source-Naturals-Betaine-HCI-650-mg-180-Tablets/970?at=0

[Guest guest]

Hello Miriam,

I'm (obviously) not Ian, but since I've been following in Ian's footsteps, I can tell you that Ian did get a slight burn at 40 pills. The Betaine HCl (from Source Naturals) that both Ian and I are taking are pills , not capsules, and they are 650 mg each, which is the usual strength in the US, I believe, but the caps you get in the UK might only be half that strength (I know that Lamberts' HCl is). We both have been following the recommended test on this site http://dshedu.com/HowTo/Betaine/ . Since Ian has asked several friends and family members of his to do the high protein acid test as well and most of them did get a `burn' varying between 2 and 8 pills, I think that tolerating 40 without any reaction is quite remarkable.

I was not as brave as Ian and I drew the line at 30 pills – a level at which I did not feel the slightest warming or burning – it only made me feel sick, not as in nausea sick, but as in "stuffed" sick. It felt like I had swallowed a stone …. but – it certainly aided digestion that night <g>. I am now taking between 5 and 10 pills per meal, depending on what I eat. It is helping with my digestion, no doubt about it, I feel less bloated and my food gets through quicker and is better digested. But all in all I can't say that those 20 pills or so per day make a dramatic difference to the way I am feeling.

The H. pylori test both Ian and I had both done was performed at http://www.oxfordscreening.co.uk/ I know that none of the H. pylori tests are 100% reliable (except when diagnosed via endoscopy), but this stool test is a fairly reliable one – or so they claim. As Ian said, his was positive, mine and my husband's were negative.

***I don't know what the state of my stomach acid production was at that time, butapparently adequate levels can eradicate H Pylori.

According to Dr. Clelland from Oxford Screening high levels of stomach acid will suppress H. pylori, but not kill the bacteria. Dr. Clelland advised Ian to stop taking HCl and wait for a minimum of 14 days before sending a test sample for H. pylori .... Ian had taken massive doses of Betaine HCl up to this time and his test came still back positive after a break of 14 days.

With best wishes,

[Guest guest]

Hi Miriam

After 40 tablets, I did have a fairly uncomfortable night. Heartburn. Enough

to make me not sleep, but nothing I couldn't handle. We all vary, I'm sure some

would be calling an Ambulance.

All I can do is relay my own experience. Both my wife & brother had burn after

just 2 tablets.

I can't comment on your Pylori experience.

>

> Hi Ian,

>

> I am curious to know whether you did ever reach the point where the Betaine H

Cl gave you a warm feeling (which you call burn)?

>

> The acid in the capsules, whilst strong enough to aid with digestion, is very

weak compared to what your own stomach should naturally produce, so I am not

surprised you could tolerate 40 tablets. What I feel dubious about is whether

looking out for that warm feeling is an adequate test for how much you need to

take. I have never experienced it either, though I have not been as daring as

you re capsule numbers! So I tend to take enough to experience normal, quiet

digestion and proper stomach emptying (currently 3-4 capsules, depending on the

protein content of the meal).

>

> I also had screening for H Pylori, about 10 years ago, and it was positive.

(It was as part of some scientific survey so I wasn't offered any treatment.) A

couple of years later they repeated the test and it came back negative. The H

Pylori had gone away by itself, which the staff said was impossible, - but I was

living proof it was not impossible. Therefore there must be something flawed

about either the testing, or the theories about how to wipe out H Pylori. I

don't know what the state of my stomach acid production was at that time, but

apparently adequate levels can eradicate H Pylori.

>

> Miriam

[Guest guest]

It should be pointed out that there are different strengths available.Holland & Barrett for instance = 303mg betaine per caphttp://www.hollandandbarrett.com/pages/product_detail.asp?pid=1328 & searchterm=betaine & rdcnt=1 I used this. 650mg Betainehttp://www.iherb.com/Source-Naturals-Betaine-HCI-650-mg-180-Tablets/970?at=0 The acid in the capsules, whilst strong enough to aid with digestion, is very weak

[Guest guest]

Thanks very much for all that interesting information. Maybe the tests I did

for H Pylori were not reliable, so who knows whether I have it or not? I shall

make a note of all the information, but I'm not sure I want to follow it up just

now as I have enough to deal with at the moment.

The BioCare H Cl & Pepsin capsules are 600 mg Betaine hydrochloride and 9 mg

Pepsin. However, I usually buy " Now " capsules from iHerb as it works out

cheaper. You can buy 2 tubs at once before hitting the threshold for VAT and

Post Office charges. They contain 648 mg H Cl and 150 mg Pepsin.

Miriam

> I'm (obviously) not Ian, but since I've been following in

> Ian's footsteps, I can tell you that Ian did get a slight burn at 40

> pills. The Betaine HCl (from Source Naturals) that both Ian and I are taking

are pills , not capsules, and they are 650 mg each, which is the usual strength

in the US, I believe, but the caps you get in the UK might only be half that

strength (I know that Lamberts' HCl is).

[Guest guest]

Incidentally, did you get your H Pylori screening via the NHS?

As for whether the H Cl and Pepsin make a dramatic difference, it depends on

whether you are talking short-term or long-term. It is supposed to take about 6

months to correct the malnutrition caused by low stomach acid. I am still

noticing improvements in energy levels and I started treatment last November. I

have probably had hypochlorhydria for the last 20 years, so it could well take

time for the body to repair itself.

Trying to correct hormonal problems while nutrition is not right is like trying

to fill the bath when the plug is out.

Miriam

It is helping with my digestion, no doubt about it, I feel less bloated and my

food gets through quicker and is better digested. But all in all I can't say

that those 20 pills or so per day make a dramatic difference to the way I am

feeling.

>

> The H. pylori test both Ian and I had both done was performed at

> http://www.oxfordscreening.co.uk/ <http://www.oxfordscreening.co.uk/>

[Guest guest]

Hi MiriamI paid £30 + p & p for my test with Oxford Screening http://www.oxfordscreening.co.uk/ Given the Dr Clelland, who runs it, is a specialist at Papworth, I'm guessing it's the same Lab.When I showed it my GP, he accepted it & gave me Triple Therapy. He brought up my wife's details (without asking) & gave her a test. Blood test. I asked why not stool (as I believe it to be more accurate), but he said they only do Stool on follow up (I'll get one in a month). I think blood test is cheaper.What's worrying is when I asked about my kids, he said he couldn't justify the test until they "present symptoms". As I'm not about to let that happen, I ordered 3 more tests. Mrs has done both. Should have the results tomorrow.Re your Betaine experience, how many do you take & have you ever had the burn? That protocol suggests that you find your limit, then take just below that with each meal. They claim that your own Acid production should start within 8 weeks & you will have to reduce the dose.Obviously, it's not easy to do when your limit's 40, but I was doing 10x650mg with breakfast & lunch, then 25x650mg with evening meal.I felt a real calmness within 3 days. I never realised how badly I digested food (mind you, I never ate after 6pm, as I knew I'd go to bed with a stomach full).I was sleeping better & I completely stopped breaking wind!!! & that's something I could win medals for.I'm off Betaine until the triple Therapy is finished. Then I'm hoping my Acid will recover & I'll get the warmth at 1 pill.>> Incidentally, did you get your H Pylori screening via the NHS?> > As for whether the H Cl and Pepsin make a dramatic difference, it depends on whether you are talking short-term or long-term. It is supposed to take about 6 months to correct the malnutrition caused by low stomach acid. I am still noticing improvements in energy levels and I started treatment last November. I have probably had hypochlorhydria for the last 20 years, so it could well take time for the body to repair itself.> > Trying to correct hormonal problems while nutrition is not right is like trying to fill the bath when the plug is out.> > Miriam>

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Ian. It's good that your GP paid attention to your test results. The

GPs at my surgery don't like any tests they haven't ordered themselves.

Have you read " Why stomach acid is good for you? " by Dr ? I

would recommend it. The book says that the reason for acid reflux is that a

certain level of stomach acid is required to trigger the valve at the top of the

stomach to close. He doesn't mention anything about wind, though obviously that

may occur with poor digestion. I didn't suffer from wind even though I had low

stomach acid.

Sufficient acid is also required to stimulate the pancreas to produce digestive

enzymes and for the gall bladder to produce bile for fat digestion.

I have never experienced any warmth after taking the Betaine H Cl, but Dr

Myhill's website recommends up to 5 so I haven't gone beyond that. If it is

sufficient for proper digestion then I don't see the point in taking any more.

I feel skeptical about the claim that your own stomach acid will restart after 8

weeks. I have been taking it since November and can't do without it. I know

other people who have been taking it long-term too. There are many causes of

low stomach acid, so you really need to address those.

Let me see whether I can remember them all: fluoride and chlorine in the water

can suppress stomach acid production; sugar (a stomach irritant); dysbiosis;

iodine deficiency; allergies; H pylori; lack of salt (sodium chloride needed to

create hydrochloric acid); adrenal fatigue; autoimmune disorders; proton pump

inhibitors (obviously stop taking them!). I'm sure this isn't a comprehensive

list.

Some of those problems are difficult to fix, so you may end up having to take

the H Cl & Pepsin long-term. Keep me posted! :-)

Miriam

> I paid £30 + p & p for my test with Oxford Screening

> When I showed it my GP, he accepted it & gave me Triple Therapy.

>>

> Re your Betaine experience, how many do you take & have you ever had the burn?

That protocol suggests that you find your limit, then take just below that with

each meal. They claim that your own Acid production should start within 8 weeks

& you will have to reduce the dose.

> I was sleeping better & I completely stopped breaking wind!!! & that's

something I could win medals for.

[Guest guest]

Hi MiriamI'm trying to find the protocol that I got that from. It came highly recommended, so I feel it's worth a go. I know I certainly felt better with 25pills. Slept like a log etc..I didn't do it for long enough (about 10 days) before I had to stop for the Pylori test.Now I've got 4 weeks of the dreaded Proton Pump Inhibitors, as the Acid must be kept low while the Antibiotics kill the Pylori.Soon as I'm done, I'll be back on it. Of course I'm hoping to have more Acid due to the Pylori being gone!Why not give it a try? As long as you take it steady, like one every 2 minutes. Get to 10 one night, then 15 etc.. I just had to know what my limit was.If you get a burn that you're uncomfortable with, a spoon of Bicarb Soda will soon calm it down. An interesting thought for those here who use Bicarb Soda. I certainly wouldn't touch the stuf!!! I have never experienced any warmth after taking the Betaine H Cl, but Dr Myhill's website recommends up to 5 so I haven't gone beyond that. I feel skeptical about the claim that your own stomach acid will restart after 8 weeks. Miriam

[Guest guest]

Is this it Ian http://dshedu.com/HowTo/Betaine/

Luv

- Sheila

I'm trying to find the protocol that I got that from. It came highly

recommended, so I feel it's worth a go. I know I certainly felt better

with 25pills. Slept like a log etc..

[Guest guest]

thanks Sheila

That's the protocol I just followed, but there was another one that said exactly

the same, but it said that if you continue to take just under your limit,

natural levels will be retored & you'll have to reduce your intake as you feel

the warmth.

>

> Is this it Ian http://dshedu.com/HowTo/Betaine/

>

> Luv - Sheila

>

[Guest guest]

I know, I have looked back at your messages to see whether you

mentioned it before, but I cannot find it either.

Luv - Sheila

That's the protocol I just followed, but there was another one that said

exactly the same, but it said that if you continue to take just under your

limit, natural levels will be retored & you'll have to reduce your intake

as you feel the warmth.

>

> Is this it Ian http://dshedu.com/HowTo/Betaine/

>

> Luv - Sheila

>

No virus

found in this incoming message.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3137 - Release Date: 09/15/10

18:34:00

[Guest guest]

Hi Ian,

I did the test yesterday and got a feeling of warmth at 8 tablets. So I don't

think the amount I usually take with a meal is that far off the maximum I might

need (depending on the protein content of that meal). I didn't notice any other

changes, such improved sleep.

Incidentally, it is normal to have bright yellow urine after taking B vitamins.

Perhaps if yours isn't yellow you are taking more H Cl & Pepsin than necessary?

I don't have 100% confidence in the website you keep referring to because they

have got some things wrong - such as saying that wind causes the stomach valve

to stay open thus causing heartburn. If Dr Myhill suggests a maximum of 5

tablets then perhaps 5 is sufficient for digestion?

Miriam

>

> No, it won't tell you you've got Pylori, it will just give you an

> indication of how far off your Acid is.

[Guest guest]

I didn't expect to have improved sleep, but this is what Ian said happened to

him so I was just letting him know.

No, of course I am not claiming that any doctor is 100% right, but the website

Ian keeps quoting from doesn't seem 100% reliable either, so I was just

suggesting that he might be able to digest his food perfectly well with fewer

tablets than the test suggests, like I can.

Miriam

> I doubt if you would have noticed any difference in your sleeping pattern

after a one off trial of taking 8 drops of HCL Miriam.

>

Doctors have their own reasons for suggesting what might be a maximum for most

people, but we are not 'most people' and each one of us, as it suggests in the

web site, should find the dose that works for us. Are you saying that because

you had to take 8 tablets to 'feel the burn', that because Dr Myhill suggests

only 5 tablets is needed for 'digestion', that she MUST be 100% right.

[Guest guest]

Well that's good news! Shows your Stomach Acid isn't so far off. Hopefully in

a short while, you will find you don't need 5 & will be able to reduce to

nothing.

Yes, the body will excrete anything that it can't absorb. Try drinking 6 raw

eggs & you will see that your pee is cloudy. I was taught 30 years ago that the

body will absorb about 1 egg per hour & anything over that is wasted.

It stands to reason that if two people take the same amount of B12, the one who

absorbs less well will excrete more of it via pee than the person who absorbs.

I know that I've had bad sleep all my life. I know that I never eat after 7pm &

even at that, I sometimes lie in bed feeling full.

I can tell you with 100% certainty that when I took 25-40 HCl tablets, my

stomach felt settled & I don't remember putting my head on the pillow.

I can also tell you that it makes my pee run clear. Normally, just one single

NAX tablet makes my pee bright yellow. That cannot be good.

I'm hoping that my Pylori has gone now. Will re-test in 4 weeks. I'm hoping

the result of that is my Stomach Acid should recover.

Keep going with your 5 tabs. Sounds like you're not too far away. If having

good digestion doesn't help you sleep, maybe you have another reason you need to

find.

Good luck!

>

> Hi Ian,

>

> I did the test yesterday and got a feeling of warmth at 8 tablets. So I don't

think the amount I usually take with a meal is that far off the maximum I might

need (depending on the protein content of that meal). I didn't notice any other

changes, such improved sleep.

>

> Incidentally, it is normal to have bright yellow urine after taking B

vitamins. Perhaps if yours isn't yellow you are taking more H Cl & Pepsin than

necessary? I don't have 100% confidence in the website you keep referring to

because they have got some things wrong - such as saying that wind causes the

stomach valve to stay open thus causing heartburn. If Dr Myhill suggests a

maximum of 5 tablets then perhaps 5 is sufficient for digestion?

>

> Miriam

[Guest guest]

It sounds like we are pretty opposite as regards food. I sometimes have to get

up at night and eat something in order to get back to sleep.

I hope your Pylori problem is soon sorted out. Please keep us posted.

Miriam

>

> I know that I've had bad sleep all my life. I know that I never eat after 7pm

& even at that, I sometimes lie in bed feeling full.

>

> I'm hoping that my Pylori has gone now. Will re-test in 4 weeks. I'm hoping

the result of that is my Stomach Acid should recover.