Re: Socialism and Medicine

[Guest guest]

There is no crisis in animal care because when people cannot afford to go to the vet-they have to let their animals just die.

That is not to say that some of the things mentioned here are not worthy. I gave it a very cursory reading.

M

Subject: Socialism and MedicineTo: EOHarm Date: Thursday, November 20, 2008, 3:23 PM

This is a well-written, balanced essay on "single-payer" health care.The author is a "free-market" user of alternative health and standardhealth care. - LennySocialism and Medicineby L. http://is.gd/ 8kpw

[Guest guest]

Is their anywhere in the world or in history that this " free-market " health

utopia has ever

existed?

All I know is that that I pay a hell of a lot more taxes to pay for the health

care provided

for free by public hospitals and clinics. The families receiving these services

mostly work

but they have crappy jobs that don't offer health insurance. So in effect I am

subsidizing

marginal businesses that do not provide enough income to provide basic

necessities for

their employees. And I am really tired of it. If an employer can't pay enough

for an

employee to get health care then they should go out of business. I am tired of

subsidizing

them.

>

> This is a well-written, balanced essay on " single-payer " health care.

> The author is a " free-market " user of alternative health and standard

> health care. - Lenny

>

>

> Socialism and Medicine

> by L.

>

> http://is.gd/8kpw

>

[Guest guest]

Is their anywhere in the world or in history that this " free-market " health

utopia has ever

existed?

All I know is that that I pay a hell of a lot more taxes to pay for the health

care provided

for free by public hospitals and clinics. The families receiving these services

mostly work

but they have crappy jobs that don't offer health insurance. So in effect I am

subsidizing

marginal businesses that do not provide enough income to provide basic

necessities for

their employees. And I am really tired of it. If an employer can't pay enough

for an

employee to get health care then they should go out of business. I am tired of

subsidizing

them.

>

> This is a well-written, balanced essay on " single-payer " health care.

> The author is a " free-market " user of alternative health and standard

> health care. - Lenny

>

>

> Socialism and Medicine

> by L.

>

> http://is.gd/8kpw

>

[Guest guest]

Please forgive me folks, but I rather like the way our health system works here in Canada. Shortcomings do exist, but for the most part, I do think that most of us are getting our needs addressed without having to go into serious debt to do that. The free market utopian wishwash garble of the last article went through my head, without me understanding any of of it! Arghh! If any of you can translate that into plain English, I''d be happy to read it.

Aasa

Subject: Re: Socialism and MedicineTo: EOHarm Received: Friday, November 21, 2008, 4:13 AM

Is their anywhere in the world or in history that this "free-market" health utopia has ever existed?All I know is that that I pay a hell of a lot more taxes to pay for the health care provided for free by public hospitals and clinics. The families receiving these services mostly work but they have crappy jobs that don't offer health insurance. So in effect I am subsidizing marginal businesses that do not provide enough income to provide basic necessities for their employees. And I am really tired of it. If an employer can't pay enough for an employee to get health care then they should go out of business. I am tired of subsidizing them.>> This is a well-written, balanced essay on "single-payer" health care.> The author is a

"free-market" user of alternative health and standard> health care. - Lenny> > > Socialism and Medicine> by L. > > http://is.gd/ 8kpw>

[Guest guest]

I think I pay a lot in taxes, health care premiums and uncovered

medical bills for doctors and shareholders of hspitals and drug

companies to get very rich. There is something wrong with a system

where people make HUGE profits off other people's illnesses and

injuries.

> >

> > This is a well-written, balanced essay on " single-payer " health

care.

> > The author is a " free-market " user of alternative health and

standard

> > health care. - Lenny

> >

> >

> > Socialism and Medicine

> > by L.

> >

> > http://is.gd/8kpw

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Just think..... the most simplest, least expensive answer to any of this would be had drug companies never come to exist, companies whose claims it was that our lives were "made easier by their products: pesticides, microwaves, cleaning products, etc. there would be no NEED for a national healthcare system. This is all about the stinking money...... every way you look at it. THIS is a "business."We all would have healthy immune systems if none of the above were ever invented.so simpleRox

From: Gilmore <yogilmoreyahoo (DOT) com>Subject: Re: Socialism and MedicineTo: EOHarmyahoogroups (DOT) comReceived: Friday, November 21, 2008, 4:13 AM

Is their anywhere in the world or in history that this "free-market" health utopia has ever existed?All I know is that that I pay a hell of a lot more taxes to pay for the health care provided for free by public hospitals and clinics. The families receiving these services mostly work but they have crappy jobs that don't offer health insurance. So in effect I am subsidizing marginal businesses that do not provide enough income to provide basic necessities for their employees. And I am really tired of it. If an employer can't pay enough for an employee to get health care then they should go out of business. I am tired of subsidizing them.>> This is a well-written, balanced essay on "single-payer" health care.> The author is a

"free-market" user of alternative health and standard> health care. - Lenny> > > Socialism and Medicine> by L. > > http://is.gd/ 8kpw>

[Guest guest]

My cousin told his wife-- a gradeschool teacher-- that it would

probably cost them less if she didn't work because she's spending so

much on her students. She's been unable to ignore the fact that half

her students are coming to school without breakfast, some with

untreated medical issues, etc. Many are from homes with single

parents working multiple jobs or from two parent homes where everyone

works multiple jobs but the kids still depend on school lunch for the

one time they can eat on some days. The one thing my cousin's wife

says she can do is feed the students, so they can even concentrate in

school. Her experience is typical for low-income area schools and

it's a shame. For all the money we spend in taxes here, not much is

really happening. I think we all know where the money is going.

Norway has a form of " socialized " medicine, the best standard of care

in the world and has most frequently ranked-- year by year-- as

having the highest generalized standard of living (just behind

Canada) in the world, among the lowest child mortality, etc.

There are signs that Norway has less corruption in medicine. For

instance, they did a GF/CF study which doctors there got really

excited about for children with " ADHD " , openly comparing the abnormal

urine test results found in the study to the abnormal peptides found

in the urine of children with autism.

I know Norway's a different country and diffeent economy, but if you

took all the graft and fraud out of US medicine, I wonder if everyone

might be covered for less money.

>

> I think I pay a lot in taxes, health care premiums and uncovered

> medical bills for doctors and shareholders of hspitals and drug

> companies to get very rich. There is something wrong with a system

> where people make HUGE profits off other people's illnesses and

> injuries.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

It's also a lot easier to manage a smaller country with a much smaller population than the US.

Maurine

Subject: Re: Socialism and MedicineTo: EOHarm Date: Friday, November 21, 2008, 10:19 AM

My cousin told his wife-- a gradeschool teacher-- that it would probably cost them less if she didn't work because she's spending so much on her students. She's been unable to ignore the fact that half her students are coming to school without breakfast, some with untreated medical issues, etc. Many are from homes with single parents working multiple jobs or from two parent homes where everyone works multiple jobs but the kids still depend on school lunch for the one time they can eat on some days. The one thing my cousin's wife says she can do is feed the students, so they can even concentrate in school. Her experience is typical for low-income area schools and it's a shame. For all the money we spend in taxes here, not much is really happening. I think we all know where the money is going.Norway has a form of "socialized" medicine, the best standard of care in the world and has most

frequently ranked-- year by year-- as having the highest generalized standard of living (just behind Canada) in the world, among the lowest child mortality, etc. There are signs that Norway has less corruption in medicine. For instance, they did a GF/CF study which doctors there got really excited about for children with "ADHD", openly comparing the abnormal urine test results found in the study to the abnormal peptides found in the urine of children with autism. I know Norway's a different country and diffeent economy, but if you took all the graft and fraud out of US medicine, I wonder if everyone might be covered for less money. >> I think I pay a lot in taxes, health care premiums and uncovered > medical bills for

doctors and shareholders of hspitals and drug > companies to get very rich. There is something wrong with a system > where people make HUGE profits off other people's illnesses and > injuries.> > >

[Guest guest]

Too true. We need the Einstein of economists to solve this one. I still

think it's worthy of looking into.

>

>

> Subject: Re: Socialism and Medicine

> To: EOHarm

> Date: Friday, November 21, 2008, 10:19 AM

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I am frightened by the health care/pharma industry's control over the

politics of government, to then put the government in charge of health

care. While I would not expect some utopia free market solution to

health care (and neither does the author), I do fear socialized

medicine run by the government turning into medical fascism - a

glimpse of what we now experience with recommended (read: mandated)

vaccines and public health care agencies. Single payer system would

rule out alternative treatments for autism, leaving ABA and risperdal

as the only options for our children.

And unless I am mistaken, there is nothing in the constitution, or in

common law, that obligates any employer to pay for the health care of

its workers. I am against socialism for corporations, too. If I were

king of the world, I would let the investment firms, the auto industry

fail if fail they must, rather than reward their failures with

bailouts. I would then abdicate the throne.

Lenny

> >

> > This is a well-written, balanced essay on " single-payer " health care.

> > The author is a " free-market " user of alternative health and standard

> > health care. - Lenny

> >

> >

> > Socialism and Medicine

> > by L.

> >

> > http://is.gd/8kpw

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Nothing will improve until they get to the root of the problem that started this downturn-which is the mortgage defaults. Where'd the money to Fannie and Freddie go?

M

Subject: Re: Socialism and MedicineTo: EOHarm Date: Friday, November 21, 2008, 12:05 PM

I am frightened by the health care/pharma industry's control over thepolitics of government, to then put the government in charge of healthcare. While I would not expect some utopia free market solution tohealth care (and neither does the author), I do fear socializedmedicine run by the government turning into medical fascism - aglimpse of what we now experience with recommended (read: mandated)vaccines and public health care agencies. Single payer system wouldrule out alternative treatments for autism, leaving ABA and risperdalas the only options for our children.And unless I am mistaken, there is nothing in the constitution, or incommon law, that obligates any employer to pay for the health care ofits workers. I am against socialism for corporations, too. If I wereking of the world, I would let the investment firms, the auto industryfail if fail they must, rather than reward their

failures withbailouts. I would then abdicate the throne. Lenny> >> > This is a well-written, balanced essay on "single-payer" health care.> > The author is a "free-market" user of alternative health and standard> > health care. - Lenny> > > > > > Socialism and Medicine> > by L. > > > > http://is.gd/ 8kpw> >>

[Guest guest]

and why are those verification signs that keep turning up on my internet getting harder and harder to decipher???????????

From: schaferatsprynet <schafersprynet (DOT) com>Subject: Re: Socialism and MedicineTo: EOHarmyahoogroups (DOT) comDate: Friday, November 21, 2008, 12:05 PM

I am frightened by the health care/pharma industry's control over thepolitics of government, to then put the government in charge of healthcare. While I would not expect some utopia free market solution tohealth care (and neither does the author), I do fear socializedmedicine run by the government turning into medical fascism - aglimpse of what we now experience with recommended (read: mandated)vaccines and public health care agencies. Single payer system wouldrule out alternative treatments for autism, leaving ABA and risperdalas the only options for our children.And unless I am mistaken, there is nothing in the constitution, or incommon law, that obligates any employer to pay for the health care ofits workers. I am against socialism for corporations, too. If I wereking of the world, I would let the investment firms, the auto industryfail if fail they must, rather than reward their

failures withbailouts. I would then abdicate the throne. Lenny> >> > This is a well-written, balanced essay on "single-payer" health care.> > The author is a "free-market" user of alternative health and standard> > health care. - Lenny> > > > > > Socialism and Medicine> > by L. > > > > http://is.gd/ 8kpw> >>

[Guest guest]

way you look at it. THIS is a "business."We all would have healthy immune systems if none of the above were ever invented. That's what I keep thinking - and why I think the current "healthcare debate" is so misguided. Because we shouldn't necessarily be talking about health-care, we should be talking about health. Healthcare is what you do to pick up the pieces once humpty dumpty has fallen off the wall (to use an image particularly apt for autism - or would that be only apt for Autism Speaks [who "invented" the puzzle pieces logo?]). Health is about making sure humpty dumpty never falls off the wall in the first place. That said, given our current toxic world, I think we all have "fallen off the wall" so to speak to some extent. So a need for "current healthcare" will continue - and anyway there are plenty of people who just want to take a "convenient once a day pill" and forget about whatever. They can't or don't want to put in the time and effort to customize a biomed program ('biomed' in a very broad sense, possibly including "traditional drugs" IF THEY DO SOMETHING USEFUL - this is the philosophy espoused by Dr. Bock in his book Healing the New Childhood Epidemics). These people will simply be satisfied with only symptom relief, or only partial symptom relief. But the current debate that I see is not focused much at all on helping people to maintain their health in the first place. And a lot of the reason is probably money - and time. It takes more time for doctors to implement a biomed program than it is to just prescribe a pill - I don't think there is such a thing as a "15-minute DAN doctor visit". Many parents "compensate" for this by doing their own research, and only see a DAN doc once or twice a year. But parents of kids with autism are a special breed - most people could not fathom going to the lengths that biomed parents do. I also think there is a disturbing idea that pervades all these discussions in the background to some degree that sickness is okay - or perhaps even that some degree of sickness is even expected. I see this with my own parents and grandmother - there is an expectation that "of course" people decline cognitively with age (my grandmother is 90), and their bones get weak, etc, etc, etc.. So there is the expectation that there is nothing you can do about it. Of course, only about 5% of the elderly population (if that) are on what would be considered "good" biomed programs (supplemental vitamins, minerals, amino acids, taurine for bones, PS/PC/PI/PE complex for memory, circumin to reduce neural inflammation and dementia, etc) So of course there's going to be a "general perception" that decline in old age is inevitable - because that's what generally happens now. Never mind the fact that Asian women often have less osteoporosis than Western women.. We won't even bother to look at dietary and lifestyle factors ("It must be genetic" is the excuse that would probably be used - just like with autism). I have no idea how you fix this system - without tearing it down and putting something new in place entirely. And if you try to do that, the old system is going to fight like all heck to stop you. They already are - be it with CODEX scare tactics, actual moves toward a CODEX-type system, tighter FDA restrictions on BHRT and compounding pharmacies, traditional pharmaceutical companies perhaps planning to set up their own form of biomed - and shut everyone else out.Jim

[Guest guest]

My little utopian fantasies aside, Lenny, I can't argue with your

concerns about it. State medicine defines fascism. Some years before

German psychiatrists began killing children with disabilities in

1939, Germany had adopted a kind of Medicaid/social security system.

It was state medicine, state psychiatry and the bodies of citizens

belonged to the Reich. Individuals with disabilities (followed by

other " undesirables " ) were cut out of the " healthy body " of the

populace like " tumors " . Of course this didn't all happen because of a

social security system-- it had public support and all the rest.

Right now we have " state medicine " and " state psychiatry " with the

legal concepts of " majority science " dictated by industry, so more of

same wouldn't be any good. If a system could be designed with

stopgaps against this type of corruption, great.

> > >

> > > This is a well-written, balanced essay on " single-payer " health

care.

> > > The author is a " free-market " user of alternative health and

standard

> > > health care. - Lenny

> > >

> > >

> > > Socialism and Medicine

> > > by L.

> > >

> > > http://is.gd/8kpw

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

And, Jim, isn't that convenient how the genetics companies now want to push "customized medicine/healthcare" on us? Wasn't there just something in the news again last week about this? Yes.... convenient. I'd say (in the name of a booming economy) we have just created the job market for the next decade or so........ customized medicine. Can't get a factory job? Look what waits for you in the field of medicine (insert job here).You can run the machine that stuffs capsules with the latest pharma drug for whatever ails a person with this genetic defect (caused, of course by some chemical company or vaccines).way you look at it. THIS is a "business."We all would have healthy immune systems if none of the above were ever invented. That's what I keep thinking - and why I think the current "healthcare debate" is so misguided. Because we shouldn't necessarily be talking about health-care, we should be talking about health. Healthcare is what you do to pick up the pieces once humpty dumpty has fallen off the wall (to use an image particularly apt for autism - or would that be only apt for Autism Speaks [who "invented" the puzzle pieces logo?]). Health is

about making sure humpty dumpty never falls off the wall in the first place. That said, given our current toxic world, I think we all have "fallen off the wall" so to speak to some extent. So a need for "current healthcare" will continue - and anyway there are plenty of people who just want to take a "convenient once a day pill" and forget about whatever. They can't or don't want to put in the time and effort to customize a biomed program ('biomed' in a very broad sense, possibly including "traditional drugs" IF THEY DO SOMETHING USEFUL - this is the philosophy espoused by Dr. Bock in his book Healing the New Childhood Epidemics). These people will simply be satisfied with only symptom relief, or only partial symptom relief. But the current debate

that I see is not focused much at all on helping people to maintain their health in the first place. And a lot of the reason is probably money - and time. It takes more time for doctors to implement a biomed program than it is to just prescribe a pill - I don't think there is such a thing as a "15-minute DAN doctor visit". Many parents "compensate" for this by doing their own research, and only see a DAN doc once or twice a year. But parents of kids with autism are a special breed - most people could not fathom going to the lengths that biomed parents do. I also think there is a disturbing idea that pervades all these discussions in the background to some degree that sickness is okay - or perhaps even that some degree of sickness is even expected. I see this with my own parents and grandmother - there is an

expectation that "of course" people decline cognitively with age (my grandmother is 90), and their bones get weak, etc, etc, etc.. So there is the expectation that there is nothing you can do about it. Of course, only about 5% of the elderly population (if that) are on what would be considered "good" biomed programs (supplemental vitamins, minerals, amino acids, taurine for bones, PS/PC/PI/PE complex for memory, circumin to reduce neural inflammation and dementia, etc) So of course there's going to be a "general perception" that decline in old age is inevitable - because that's what generally happens now. Never mind the fact that Asian women often have less osteoporosis than Western women.. We won't even bother to look at dietary and lifestyle factors ("It must be genetic" is the excuse that would probably be used - just like with autism). I have no idea how you fix this system - without tearing it down and putting something new in place entirely. And if you try to do that, the old system is going to fight like all heck to stop you. They already are - be it with CODEX scare tactics, actual moves toward a CODEX-type system, tighter FDA restrictions on BHRT and compounding pharmacies, traditional pharmaceutical companies perhaps planning to set up their own form of biomed - and shut everyone else out.Jim

[Guest guest]

It would still cost less overall.

The cost shifting our health care policies employ lead to waste, less

access to care, higher costs, and more illness.

CGF

> >

> > I think I pay a lot in taxes, health care premiums and uncovered

> > medical bills for doctors and shareholders of hspitals and drug

> > companies to get very rich. There is something wrong with a

system

> > where people make HUGE profits off other people's illnesses and

> > injuries.

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

,

You must have had your logical brain cells sucked out before you posted this.

Your comment about business going out is thoughtless, irresponsible and shows

you do not value capitalism, choice and the private sector as the solution to

our

problems. Health care choice and yes...vouchers are a better solution for

health care and

treating autism. Failure to give power to the people for choice of health care

will insure

more of our money gets pissed away by big, fat, inefficient government stooges

who are

hell bent on empowering themselves as the do gooders who can spend our money

better

than we can. Just look at education and the fight to deny educational choice.

Until you

have run a small business, which has a 95% failure rate in the first 5 years,

don't mandate

more regulations on start ups, which btw create most of the new and high paying

jobs.

How about subsidizing the alki who destroys their liver, or the people who make

no effort

to manage their own health. Screw them , I am sick of paying for their fat

lazy,

Mcs daily consuming asses! Bigger government, with less market choice is

not the

answer. So lets get this right.... I can be a completely irresponsible

alcoholic, who eats

fast food daily, smokes, and shows a complete disregard for my health, but, it

is the

governments, i.e. taxpayers responsibility to pay for my bad behavior? These

are the

same folks who got us into all these health care messes in the first place. No

thanks. On

the other hand, lets destroy the goose(small business) that lays the golden

eggs(tax

money, jobs, health insurance much of the time).

I am a free market capitalist because it benefits the most people and affords

the most

opportunities to those who work for them. If you like the big socialist models

try to eek

out a living in Russia or Cuba.

As mush as I am critical of the DAN people who do not take insurance, when they

easily

can while making lots of money, I will defend their right to practice

independently and not

follow a future government mandated model of Autism= ABA and Risperdal only.

If we do have universal care it should be done with vouchers to insure maximum

choice,

which will lead to effective solutions and overall better and more cost

efficient care.

Mike

Who is against these big socialist bailouts that will ruin our

country and insure fewer opportunities for our children and grandchildren.

> >

> > This is a well-written, balanced essay on " single-payer " health care.

> > The author is a " free-market " user of alternative health and standard

> > health care. - Lenny

> >

> >

> > Socialism and Medicine

> > by L.

> >

> > http://is.gd/8kpw

> >

>

[Guest guest]

And, Jim, isn't that convenient how the genetics companies now want to push "customized medicine/healthcare" on us? Wasn't there just something in the news again last week about this? Yes.... convenient. I'd say (in the name of a booming economy) we have just created the job market for the next decade or so........ customized medicine. Yeah. Except it isn't really "customized" - it's customized within the narrow bounds of what mainstream medicine accepts (and is willing to treat). A similar thing is going on with diabetes - one of the newest (?) things to come out of the "Diabetes Industry" is "Taking Control Of Your Diabetes".. Sounds great - empowering people, etc.. Except that it's just code for "get your A1C, take what your doctor prescribed, eat what whoever prescribes, and hope you don't go blind too soon - or pay for an expensive laser surgery. If you want to "take control of your diabetes" by throwing OUT the ADA recommendations (that don't work), going on a low-carb diet (Dr. Bernstein in New York has been on one for 30-plus years - he's not dead yet!), maintain near-normal blood sugars, and actually *take* control of your diabetes. You're outta' luck. Same thing with hypothyroidism (and Armour), adrenal insufficiency (and noticing your own symptoms, or a saliva cortisol test, and then treating with multi-dose sub-replacement cortisol supplementation). Outta luck. Same if you want to use LDN for MS (I'm on the "general LDN list" and there are a LOT of MS people there. Same thing even with wanting to get support supplementing your aging grandmother who has moderate Alzheimer's with B vitamins, vitamins D,E,A,K, a PS/PC complex, circumin, etc etc. (what I've basically given up on now). Outta luck!Jim

[Guest guest]

I don't know whether I want to get involved in this "discussion", but I would like to contribute that many of us who live in Canada are somewhat satisfied with how our health system/insurance works. For most of us, the system works, to some degree. It likely sucks for people who need/want treatments which are not covered. It also sucks for those of us who see our government squandering too many of our tax dollars on providing dubious/ill-researched vaccines to the general populace, when these vaccines have been shown to be ineffective and even downright dangerous. However, for the most of us, generally, the system works. Whenever my kids have a problem, I know that I can take them to a doctor, and it won't cost me any additional dollars, except for the medication(s), if any end up being prescribed, and most of those will be covered by my health

insurance at work.

Aasa

Subject: Re: Socialism and MedicineTo: EOHarm Received: Saturday, November 22, 2008, 8:47 PM

,You must have had your logical brain cells sucked out before you posted this.Your comment about business going out is thoughtless, irresponsible and shows you do not value capitalism, choice and the private sector as the solution to ourproblems. Health care choice and yes...vouchers are a better solution for health care and treating autism. Failure to give power to the people for choice of health care will insure more of our money gets pissed away by big, fat, inefficient government stooges who are hell bent on empowering themselves as the do gooders who can spend our money better than we can. Just look at education and the fight to deny educational choice. Until you have run a small business, which has a 95% failure rate in the first 5 years, don't mandate more regulations on start ups, which btw create most of the new and high paying jobs.How about subsidizing the alki who destroys their

liver, or the people who make no effort to manage their own health. Screw them , I am sick of paying for their fat lazy, Mcs daily consuming asses! Bigger government, with less market choice is not the answer. So lets get this right.... I can be a completely irresponsible alcoholic, who eats fast food daily, smokes, and shows a complete disregard for my health, but, it is the governments, i.e. taxpayers responsibility to pay for my bad behavior? These are the same folks who got us into all these health care messes in the first place. No thanks. On the other hand, lets destroy the goose(small business) that lays the golden eggs(tax money, jobs, health insurance much of the time). I am a free market capitalist because it benefits the most people and affords the most opportunities to those who work for them. If you like the big socialist models try to eek out a living in Russia or Cuba.As

mush as I am critical of the DAN people who do not take insurance, when they easily can while making lots of money, I will defend their right to practice independently and not follow a future government mandated model of Autism= ABA and Risperdal only. If we do have universal care it should be done with vouchers to insure maximum choice, which will lead to effective solutions and overall better and more cost efficient care. MikeWho is against these big socialist bailouts that will ruin our country and insure fewer opportunities for our children and grandchildren.> >> > This is a well-written, balanced essay on "single-payer" health care.> > The author is a "free-market" user of alternative health and standard> > health care. - Lenny> > > > > >

Socialism and Medicine> > by L. > > > > http://is.gd/ 8kpw> >>

[Guest guest]

Mike, it is a lie that a single payer system eliminates health care

choice.

The AMA and politicians have been using this one since, oh, the

1930's.

Must be a good one, since it's got you hoodwinked,

CGF

> > >

> > > This is a well-written, balanced essay on " single-payer " health

care.

> > > The author is a " free-market " user of alternative health and

standard

> > > health care. - Lenny

> > >

> > >

> > > Socialism and Medicine

> > > by L.

> > >

> > > http://is.gd/8kpw

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

You are sorely mistaken about me being hoodwinked. Pretty weak logic, you can

do better

I hope. When the final say is with politicians and government insiders who will

empower

themselves at every step, which leads to more of the overall pot of money going

into the

governments coffers for more overall control of the system. This leads to

RATIONING and

less efficient use of the money allocated for services! By empowering choice in

the system

and giving ultimate control to the consumer you empower the best treatments and

services to emerge and succeed. So do you really think a government controlled

system is

going to allow biomedical treatments and promising treatments for rare

conditions? Are

you going to defend the destruction of small business and the mandate to

subsidize

irresponsible

behavior. Most of our health care budget is the result of senior citizens, not

the greed of

evil small business. Connect the big pharma prescription money that is

government

funded to seniors and you will see where some of our economic woes lie.

The system is a mess and most interests can share the blame. Do you really think

the

single payer system is going to be efficient and pay for stuff like kirkman

supplements,

HBOT, Chelation or other emerging treatments. Choice in the system without the

shackles

of to much government control will insure a better future for all. Vouchers

would help

these kids and the companies who are succeeding in helping them.

Well you all have your big socialist utopia Obama, and Pelosi controlling

the reins.

I am sure all their failures will be blamed on Bush. Remember folks this

congress had the

past two years to fund the CAA and debate bills like hr2832 Vac. vs unvac

populations.

It was not a priority and they controlled the agenda. They took millions from

big pharma,

big insurance and other special interests. They are buying the right to keep

you from

having true health care choice.

Value your freedom(at least for your kids) and be careful what you wish for.

Mike

> > > >

> > > > This is a well-written, balanced essay on " single-payer " health

> care.

> > > > The author is a " free-market " user of alternative health and

> standard

> > > > health care. - Lenny

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Socialism and Medicine

> > > > by L.

> > > >

> > > > http://is.gd/8kpw

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Bravo to you Mike. When the government starts to control health care

which is the direction its heading then they will decide what

treatments you will have. It amazes me that people still believe the

Government and the powers that control them will actually do anything

about looking for the causes of autism, or treatments since they are

the ones that caused this to begin with.

Peggy

> > > > >

> > > > > This is a well-written, balanced essay on " single-payer "

health

> > care.

> > > > > The author is a " free-market " user of alternative health

and

> > standard

> > > > > health care. - Lenny

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Socialism and Medicine

> > > > > by L.

> > > > >

> > > > > http://is.gd/8kpw

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

> Same thing with hypothyroidism (and Armour), adrenal

insufficiency

> (and noticing your own symptoms, or a saliva cortisol test, and

then

> treating with multi-dose sub-replacement cortisol

supplementation).

So funny you mentioned the above. I have been trying to get my

granddaughters Homeopathic Ped to do the testing for her

Hypothyroidism for years. I finally had to go out of stste, pay out

of pocket for almost all the blood work, the saliva tests etc.

Finally she is being treated. With armour thyroid and cortisol

supplements cause her cortisol levels were tanked. When she went for

her physical the Nurse Practicioner was a little upset that my

granddaughter was being treated by an ND endocrinologist and wanted

to do her own blood test to see if her thyroid levels were too low. I

told her I did not care what her blood test told her that this MD has

treated her and now she is back in main stream school and getting all

A+B's, Her hair isn't falling out anymore, she's has lost a little

weight, and no longer complains about aching joints and muscles. All

you had to offer was a Dx of Fibromyalgia (no tests) and recommended

anti inflamatories, and SSRI's, and of course the Guardisil vaccine.

I just got her blood work done yesterday and her ND doctor added

about five more blood tests to the two that she ordered. Wait till

she see's all the tests he ordered on top her hers.

Peggy

> Outta luck. Same if you want to use LDN for MS (I'm on

the " general

> LDN list " and there are a LOT of MS people there. Same thing even

> with wanting to get support supplementing your aging grandmother

who

> has moderate Alzheimer's with B vitamins, vitamins D,E,A,K, a

PS/PC

> complex, circumin, etc etc. (what I've basically given up on

now).

> Outta luck!

>

> Jim

>

[Guest guest]

I will admit to being one of those rabid Massachusetts liberals so

ignore me if you wish. I believe that there are certain rights we

all have by virtue of being human. Those include food, housing and

health care. If that makes me a socialist, then fine, I'm a

socialist. I do not like living in the current world where there

are homeless, mentally ill people living on the streets of our large

cities and where small children go to bed hungry. I don't like

living in a world where people can work more than forty hours a week

and still not make enough money to buy food, shelter or adequate

medical care for their families. The concept of the " working poor "

makes no sense to me considering the great wealth of our country. I

will gladly pay a share of my income towards improving the lives of

all people. It will enrich my own life if my neighbors have what

they need. We are a rich country and should be able to provide for

the minimal needs of our population.

I am not an economist and I don't have a solution but it seems to me

that someone should be able to come up with a plan where all people

have access to basic healthcare while allowing adequate compensation

for healthcare workers and researchers, a plan that also recognizes

the rights of individuals to control healthcare decisions for

themselves and their families. Any plan that does not provide these

things will be a failure and I don't think a purely capitalistic

system is the answer nor do I think a single-payer plan that

disallows personal choice will work either. Do we have to settle

for one or the other? The arguments I've heard seem to indicate

there is no middle ground but I think there must be.

Some things to think about:

Most people rely on their employer for health insurance. Some

employers provide great health benefits while others provide few or

none. I have pretty good health insurance but there are people who

work just as hard, or harder, than I do who have very poor or no

coverage. Why does health care have to be dependent on employment

anyway? There would probably be more entrepreneurs and thriving

small businesses in this country if health care tied to employment

were not a consideration in career/work decisions. Wouldn't that be

great?

Many employers are cutting back on what they provide because of

rising costs. More of the cost is being shifted to employees. Many

people drop their employer sponsored plans when the cost becomes

onerous. The working poor generally don't qualify for Medicaid and

so have no insurance at all. Some people are willing and able and

want to work but don't work because they fear losing health

benefits. There's something seriously wrong with that.

A job loss because of a layoff or serious illness will result in

loss of coverage. Many (most? I don't know the statistics) cases of

bankruptcy in this country are the result of medical debt. I don't

think that many people realize that they are one serious illness

away from unemployment/loss of health insurance/bankruptcy.

Many people do not even qualify to purchase health insurance because

of " pre-existing " conditions or certain, necessary, care is

precluded.

Why is health care so expensive in this country and why do we spend

more money than other countries but are only #37? Some blame the

unhealthy lifestyle of many Americans and an aging population.

Others point to the high price of new medical devices and technology

and the cost of developing new medications. Some want to lay the

blame on lawsuits against health care providers. How many of our

health care dollars are being diverted to the insurance industry and

to administrative costs related to insurance? How much money could

be saved by eliminating the middleman (insurance companies)? Could

money saved cover the currently uninsured?

As I said, I don't know what the solution is to the health care

problem in this country but the system is definitely not working for

many people. How long will it be before only the very wealthy can

afford to purchase health insurance?

>

> This is a well-written, balanced essay on " single-payer " health

care.

> The author is a " free-market " user of alternative health and

standard

> health care. - Lenny

>

>

> Socialism and Medicine

> by L.

>

> http://is.gd/8kpw

>

[Guest guest]

Debbie,

The problem with socialism is that is never works the way its

supposed to. I do think we all have a moral obligation to take care

of fellow humans who are down and out. It does not mean they have the

right to stay there forever. Notice I said moral obligation, not

financial. Since most of the cost gets passed to the struggling

middle class that is disapperaring as we speak. There are more

million, and billionares now that ever. Why do you think that is? Its

because there is a subset of the population that is being held

responisble to foot this bill. That is not socialism. The real cancer

is when everyone thinks that they have a right to services that they

can't pay for, or that our children have to be saraficed for the

greater good of his fellow man. So you can't have it both ways. You

are either free and make your own choices and take responsibilty for

them, or you have the disgustingly corrupt system we have today.

Freedom comes with a very high price, thats what our founding fathers

knew to be the truth. Its not about getting to choose what you want

and then expecting someone else to pay for it.

Peggy

> >

> > This is a well-written, balanced essay on " single-payer " health

> care.

> > The author is a " free-market " user of alternative health and

> standard

> > health care. - Lenny

> >

> >

> > Socialism and Medicine

> > by L.

> >

> > http://is.gd/8kpw

> >

>