Re: Transcript of CBS The Doctor's autism discussion today

[Guest guest]

The following is a partial "unprofessional" transcript of today's "The Doctors" show on CBS

-----------------------------------------------------

DR. TRAVIS STORK: Another revealing topic in the public eye is autism. We never realize how predominant this illness/disease is in kids. They're saying 1 in every 150 kids has this. How is this happening, Jim? Is it vaccines? Is it other causes we don't know about?

DR. JIM SEARS: That is a huge, huge debate...and...the problem is we really don't know yet. All we do know...it is the fastest growing developmental disability at this time...it's just skyrocketed.

STORK: So, here's the question: A church, a church, where everyone is supposed to gather....actually made a rule that a mother's child who had autism couldn't come to services anymore because the child was disruptive. This is creating such a moral dilemma out there because autistic kids don't have impulse control. What do we do?

Brief discussion by panel ending with Dr. Stork: "There is no good answer here. I think its a terrible dilemma, unfortunate dilemma and its hard to really blame anyone on either side of the fence. That's just my opinion.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

DR. STORK: Jim, give us some statistics on autism.

DR. JIM SEARS: It is the number one growing development disability...over one million Americans now have been diagnosed with autism...and...at this point...about 1 in 150 kids will eventually develop autism. It's really, really scary....because we still don't know exactly why they're getting it...what's going on. Parents are always asking: "What are the signs"

Discussion of early warning signs

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

DR. STORK: Autism affects 1 out of 150 children and experts are still unsure of the exact cause. Dan and Lorie are parents of seven children, four of them have autism. They are at a complete loss as to why or how this happened to their family. And, what amazes me is, you have a total of seven children...and...you are pregnant again. Congratulations. What do people do where you have an autistic child and you talk about whether or not to have another child? And, what is the risk for autism?

DR. SEARS: That is very, very scary for parents with an autistic child....to have another one .... because your risks do go up. We do know, over the years, we've learned there's definitely a genetic factor here...there's something in the genes of your kids that make them a little vulnerable to a trigger...and....we still don't know what that trigger is. It could be some viral infection, something in the environment, a heavy metal, like lead...I know you guys had lead in the house....other chemicals, maybe something happened in the pregnancy. There's a lot of theories and I am looking forward to the day we do know for sure, until then, we're kind of at a loss.

DR. STORK: Because there's so much confusion, we're bringing in some leading experts. We have Dr. Jay Gordon, he's a leading pediatrician, who believes strongly that vaccines are a major contributing factor in autism. He treats the son of actress McCarthy, whose a major advocate for this cause. Welcome....you feel really strong that vaccines are playing a role when we talk about the increase in autism.

DR. GORDON: I certainly do. Vaccines, as they are now formulated, can cause autism...and...other problems. There's nobody, nobody, who disagrees that all childhood medications, including vaccines, should be as safe as they can possibly be. Nobody disagrees with that. Right now, they are not as safe as they can be. I would plead with you (Dan and Lori), do not vaccinate your new child. You have a genetic, a familial predisposition, to children developing autism. All children who get vaccines are not autistic because of vaccines...but....with a strong family history....honestly....after the second or third child....I think a pediatrician who continues to give vaccines....is....practicing very bad medicine. Please, do not vaccinate this new child.

DR. STORK: And what would you say to parents at home who don't have autism in their families, when it comes to vaccines?

DR. GORDON: To think very hard....to find a doctor you trust...to get yourself very much informed...to look at your family history...do you have a family history of autism or childhood depression...or...other illnesses....autoimmune diseases. Very serious neuro-immunologists are now saying autism is a neuro-immune disorder. I really think it doesn't make any sense to give five or six shots, to a little baby, whose immune system and central nervous system are still a little bit questionable and extremely immature. Wait six months, wait a year....get counsel....read as much as you can....but....the way vaccines are manufactured can cause autism. The way vaccines are administered can cause autism...and....they should be much, much safer.

DR. STORK: This is a very controversial topic...not everyone agrees with Dr. Gordon. We have Dr. Harvey Karp here who agrees with the studies that indicate vaccines are not causing autism. Welcome, Dr. Karp. I know you disagree completely with what was just said and I want you to tell us why you disagree.

DR. HARVEY KARP: First, all of our hearts go out to Dan and Lori, because it's a tough job and these are great kids....but....it's a challenging job. It's a national scandal almost that it's taken so long to put dollars behind the research that needs to be done...to find out....not only what causes autism but how we handle it. What we do know is that there have been well more than a dozen, excellent, large studies that have shown zero association between vaccines and immunization.

(Surely he meant to say "vaccines and autism"...but....perhaps this was a Fraudian slip..... his words reflecting the reality there is zero evidence to prove vaccines guarantee immunization.)

DR. KARP CONTINUED: When Dr. Gordon said "he's convinced" that this is associated, he's got to show the data....because....let me tell you something.....what we do know is if you stop immunizing children, especially in the first year or two....you are putting them at risk. Vaccines are a MIRACLE. We've seen in other countries, when the rate of immunization goes down, the rate of illnesses goes up.

DR. GORDON: The studies were not done well...the studies done, were often funded by the manufacturers of the vaccines. I don't vaccinate against any illness that poses anywhere near a threat to your family as autism does. I admit that if we stop giving certain vaccines, some illnesses might return. I admit there's no proof that vaccines cause autism. There's no proof....but.....there is evidence. I think that all of the data, all of the studies can be interpreted in a variety of ways. I don't have any proof that vaccines cause autism....I have a strong suspicion they contribute...but...I'd love to move on from that discussion and talk about what we could do to show they don't cause autism.

DR. KARP: Before you recommend...and....I know you recommend that immunization should be deferred six, twelve or even twenty-four months...before kids get it. You got to have proof. You got to have science behind this...it's not just you have "strong beliefs". I appreciate your "strong beliefs"...and...beliefs are important to guide research...but...we need the research proof before we start jiggling around with something that we absolutely know has helped prevent millions cases of disease.

DR. GORDON: Vaccines have saved lives. There's no doubt about it....but....it's not our job to prove the vaccine are dangerous....it's the manufacturers and researchers job to prove they are safe. They haven't been adequately tested. They haven't been adequately tested for safety.

DR. KARP: I agree with you completely. All that testing needs to be done....but...right now...parents at home watching this are having to make a decision. Are they going to protect their children...and...not only their children...but...their neighborhood. The only reason we have little disease right now is because so many are getting their kids immunized....and...if more and more people follow the advice you are giving...to defer vaccines...we will see more illness. The children who are going to suffer are not so much the ones who choose not to get immunization...but...the next door neighbor... and... the kids in pre-school.... who then spread the illness back to the little babies who are not even old enough to get their immunizations.

BREAK

DR. STORK: This is such an important debate. I want to get Dr. Sears opinion, because all we're doing is showing your two sides of the story...and...it is so important parents make an informed decision.

DR. JIM SEARS: I do not want everybody to stop vaccinating because then we're going to see polio come back, kids are going to start dying from measles again.

DR. GORDON: I agree.

DR. SEARS: This is what we do in my office. I try to look at each child individually. I want to get them eventually fully vaccinated unless they have a lot of risk factors for autism. If your family (Dan and Lori) were in my practice....there is no way I would vaccinate your kids. I would also talk to you about how to minimize your risk of catching these important illnesses. But, vaccine companies at least are making changes. They took out the mercury...a few years ago...everyone thought it was the mercury causing autism.

DR. GORDON: Well, you know they didn't take out all the mercury. The flu shot still has mercury. The Tetanus shot still has mercury.

DR. SEARS: We do know mercury can cause autism. We know that. We know that some of the vaccines probably caused some cases of autism. I have plenty of autistic kids that never got any vaccines.

DR. GORDON: Me too.

DR. SEARS: So, as a pediatrician, I encourage my patients not to "blow off" vaccines. Still get vaccines....I want to do it as safely as I can.

DR. GORDON: Do it individually.

DR. KARP: At what age do you start? (Asked of Dr. Sears)

DR. SEARS: I still start at two months, especially the whooping cough, that's very, very prevalent in this country. Many people don't know that. So, we do that early. The meningitis vaccines. These are very safe vaccines, not a lot of side effects to worry about. Some of the ones, some of the more controversial ones, we wait till later, like the MMR.

DAN AND LORI: That's what we did. That's what we did with Adam. He didn't get his vaccines and he still ended up with autism.

(I was stunned by this comment from Dan and Lori. In opening remarks, Dan specifically mentioned vaccines as a possible "cause" for his four children with autism. Since Adam was his "oldest", why did he suspect vaccines as a possible cause in opening remarks. I wished they had explored this family's experience further....we may have learned a lot from these courageous parents who continued having children after their four oldest diagnosed with autism. What did they do differently for their younger....typical developing children?)

DR. STORK: I think this is an excellent point. Although we debate this, it's really important to let everyone know that most physicians support vaccinations. We don't want to go back to a time when someone comes into a hospital and we're worried about all these diseases that have been pretty well wiped out of our children.

DR. KARP: When you look at the MMR....this is very important.....a lot of people talk about the MMR. There have been a number of international studies that show no association between the MMR and autism.

DAN AND LORI: Well, that's what has us so perplexed. Adam didn't get the MMR till he was five.

(I think Adam is ten. the same age as my grandson....who received numerous childhood vaccines that contained thimerosal. Recommended for removal in 1999 but still on the shelves when my little guy was given his "early vaccinations")

DR. GORDON: Vaccines don't cause all cases of autism....and...as far as "blowing off" vaccines....not a chance. There are people with increased risk factors who should get certain vaccines. As you just said Jim (speaking to Dr. Sears), you wouldn't vaccinate this next child, this family has a genetic or familial tendency for autism. Vaccines given later are safer.

DR. SEARS: It's very important for people at home to get the message that if they don't have risk factors.....I don't want everybody "blowing off" vaccines...because I don't want to go back to the middle-ages.

DR. GORDON: Neither do I.

DR. SEARS: I don't think any pediatrician wants to see that.

DR. KARP TO DR. GORDON: But, you are recommending deferring it for 6 - 12 - 24 months and that's a very different position than the vast majority.....

DR. SEARS: Space them out a little bit.

DR. GORDON: 99% of doctors disagree with me...and...I understand that.

DR. KARP: Because there's no data to support your position.

DR. STORK: We can debate this for the next 30 hours straight and we are not going to come to any conclusion. The reality is, kids are exposed to so many things now-a-days, yes, vaccines. There could prove to be a link someday....we can't say there isn't, but, there's no proof now.....and....the overwhelming majority of physicians obviously do support vaccinations right now.

DR. SEARS: But, it needs to be done safely.....there needs to be a safer system than our current system. I'm still wondering....you guys have seven kids.....four for seven so far, what made you think to go and try for number eight?

DAN AND LORI: We wanted a nice, big, family. I think it's crazy, but, I was hoping maybe we could have another child that would be typical to support....we're worried about those kids when we are gone....we're worried about those 4 kids...when we're gone.

DR. STORK: You guys are saints.

Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now.

[Guest guest]

Thank you for this. Anyone have a clip? I'm not at

all familiar with this show.

Pamela

From:

EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of Rmoffi@...

Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 4:07 PM

To: EOHarm

Cc: ACHAMP

Subject: Re: Transcript of CBS " The Doctor's " autism

discussion today

The

following is a partial " unprofessional " transcript of today's

" The Doctors " show on CBS

-----------------------------------------------------

DR.

TRAVIS STORK: Another revealing topic in the public eye is autism.

We never realize how predominant this illness/disease is in kids. They're

saying 1 in every 150 kids has this. How is this happening, Jim? Is

it vaccines? Is it other causes we don't know about?

DR.

JIM SEARS: That is a huge, huge debate...and...the problem is we really

don't know yet. All we do know...it is the fastest growing developmental

disability at this time...it's just skyrocketed.

STORK:

So, here's the question: A church, a church, where everyone is supposed

to gather....actually made a rule that a mother's child who had autism couldn't

come to services anymore because the child was disruptive. This is

creating such a moral dilemma out there because autistic kids don't have

impulse control. What do we do?

Brief discussion by panel ending with Dr. Stork: " There

is no good answer here. I think its a terrible dilemma, unfortunate

dilemma and its hard to really blame anyone on either side of the fence.

That's just my opinion.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

DR.

STORK: Jim, give us some statistics on autism.

DR.

JIM SEARS: It is the number one growing development disability...over one

million Americans now have been diagnosed with autism...and...at this

point...about 1 in 150 kids will eventually develop autism. It's really,

really scary....because we still don't know exactly why they're getting

it...what's going on. Parents are always asking: " What are the

signs "

Discussion of early warning signs

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

DR.

STORK: Autism affects 1 out of 150 children and experts are still unsure

of the exact cause. Dan and Lorie are parents of seven children, four of

them have autism. They are at a complete loss as to why or how this

happened to their family. And, what amazes me is, you have a total of

seven children...and...you are pregnant again. Congratulations.

What do people do where you have an autistic child and you talk about whether

or not to have another child? And, what is the risk for autism?

DR.

SEARS: That is very, very scary for parents with an autistic child....to

have another one .... because your risks do go up. We do know, over the

years, we've learned there's definitely a genetic factor here...there's

something in the genes of your kids that make them a little vulnerable to a

trigger...and....we still don't know what that trigger is. It could be

some viral infection, something in the environment, a heavy metal, like

lead...I know you guys had lead in the house....other chemicals, maybe

something happened in the pregnancy. There's a lot of theories and I am

looking forward to the day we do know for sure, until then, we're kind of at a

loss.

DR.

STORK: Because there's so much confusion, we're bringing in some leading

experts. We have Dr. Jay Gordon, he's a leading pediatrician, who

believes strongly that vaccines are a major contributing factor in

autism. He treats the son of actress McCarthy, whose a major

advocate for this cause. Welcome....you feel really strong that vaccines

are playing a role when we talk about the increase in autism.

DR.

GORDON: I certainly do. Vaccines, as they are now formulated, can

cause autism...and...other problems. There's nobody, nobody, who

disagrees that all childhood medications, including vaccines, should be as safe

as they can possibly be. Nobody disagrees with that. Right now,

they are not as safe as they can be. I would plead with you (Dan and

Lori), do not vaccinate your new child. You have a genetic, a familial

predisposition, to children developing autism. All children who get

vaccines are not autistic because of vaccines...but....with a strong family

history....honestly....after the second or third child....I think a

pediatrician who continues to give vaccines....is....practicing very bad

medicine. Please, do not vaccinate this new child.

DR.

STORK: And what would you say to parents at home who don't have autism in

their families, when it comes to vaccines?

DR.

GORDON: To think very hard....to find a doctor you trust...to get

yourself very much informed...to look at your family history...do you have a

family history of autism or childhood depression...or...other illnesses....autoimmune

diseases. Very serious neuro-immunologists are now saying autism is a

neuro-immune disorder. I really think it doesn't make any sense to give

five or six shots, to a little baby, whose immune system and central nervous

system are still a little bit questionable and extremely immature. Wait

six months, wait a year....get counsel....read as much as you can....but....the

way vaccines are manufactured can cause autism. The way vaccines are

administered can cause autism...and....they should be much, much safer.

DR.

STORK: This is a very controversial topic...not everyone agrees with Dr.

Gordon. We have Dr. Harvey Karp here who agrees with the studies that

indicate vaccines are not causing autism. Welcome, Dr.

Karp. I know you disagree completely with what was just said

and I want you to tell us why you disagree.

DR.

HARVEY KARP: First, all of our hearts go out to Dan and Lori, because

it's a tough job and these are great kids....but....it's a challenging

job. It's a national scandal almost that it's taken so long to put

dollars behind the research that needs to be done...to find out....not only

what causes autism but how we handle it. What we do know is that there

have been well more than a dozen, excellent, large studies that have shown zero

association between vaccines and immunization.

(Surely he meant to say " vaccines and autism " ...but....perhaps

this was a Fraudian slip..... his words reflecting the reality there is

zero evidence to prove vaccines guarantee immunization.)

DR.

KARP CONTINUED: When Dr. Gordon said " he's convinced " that this

is associated, he's got to show the data....because....let me tell you

something.....what we do know is if you stop immunizing children, especially in

the first year or two....you are putting them at risk. Vaccines are a

MIRACLE. We've seen in other countries, when the rate of immunization

goes down, the rate of illnesses goes up.

DR.

GORDON: The studies were not done well...the studies done, were often

funded by the manufacturers of the vaccines. I don't vaccinate against

any illness that poses anywhere near a threat to your family as autism

does. I admit that if we stop giving certain vaccines, some illnesses

might return. I admit there's no proof that vaccines cause

autism. There's no proof....but.....there is evidence. I

think that all of the data, all of the studies can be interpreted in a variety

of ways. I don't have any proof that vaccines cause autism....I have a

strong suspicion they contribute...but...I'd love to move on from that

discussion and talk about what we could do to show they don't cause autism.

DR.

KARP: Before you recommend...and....I know you recommend that

immunization should be deferred six, twelve or even twenty-four months...before

kids get it. You got to have proof. You got to have science behind

this...it's not just you have " strong beliefs " . I appreciate

your " strong beliefs " ...and...beliefs are important to guide

research...but...we need the research proof before we start jiggling around

with something that we absolutely know has helped prevent millions cases of

disease.

DR.

GORDON: Vaccines have saved lives. There's no doubt about

it....but....it's not our job to prove the vaccine are dangerous....it's the

manufacturers and researchers job to prove they are safe. They haven't

been adequately tested. They haven't been adequately tested for safety.

DR.

KARP: I agree with you completely. All that testing needs to be

done....but...right now...parents at home watching this are having to make a

decision. Are they going to protect their children...and...not only their

children...but...their neighborhood. The only reason we have little

disease right now is because so many are getting their kids immunized....and...if

more and more people follow the advice you are giving...to defer vaccines...we

will see more illness. The children who are going to suffer are not so

much the ones who choose not to get immunization...but...the next door

neighbor... and... the kids in pre-school.... who then spread the illness back

to the little babies who are not even old enough to get their immunizations.

BREAK

DR.

STORK: This is such an important debate. I want to get Dr. Sears

opinion, because all we're doing is showing your two sides of the story...and...it

is so important parents make an informed decision.

DR.

JIM SEARS: I do not want everybody to stop vaccinating because then we're

going to see polio come back, kids are going to start dying from measles again.

DR.

GORDON: I agree.

DR.

SEARS: This is what we do in my office. I try to look at each child

individually. I want to get them eventually fully vaccinated unless they

have a lot of risk factors for autism. If your family (Dan and Lori) were

in my practice....there is no way I would vaccinate your kids. I would

also talk to you about how to minimize your risk of catching these important

illnesses. But, vaccine companies at least are making changes. They

took out the mercury...a few years ago...everyone thought it was the mercury

causing autism.

DR.

GORDON: Well, you know they didn't take out all the mercury. The

flu shot still has mercury. The Tetanus shot still has mercury.

DR.

SEARS: We do know mercury can cause autism. We know that. We

know that some of the vaccines probably caused some cases of autism. I

have plenty of autistic kids that never got any vaccines.

DR.

GORDON: Me too.

DR.

SEARS: So, as a pediatrician, I encourage my patients not to " blow

off " vaccines. Still get vaccines....I want to do it as safely as I

can.

DR.

GORDON: Do it individually.

DR.

KARP: At what age do you start? (Asked of Dr. Sears)

DR.

SEARS: I still start at two months, especially the whooping cough, that's

very, very prevalent in this country. Many people don't know that. So,

we do that early. The meningitis vaccines. These are very safe

vaccines, not a lot of side effects to worry about. Some of the ones,

some of the more controversial ones, we wait till later, like the MMR.

DAN

AND LORI: That's what we did. That's what we did with

Adam. He didn't get his vaccines and he still ended up with autism.

(I was stunned by this comment from Dan

and Lori. In opening remarks, Dan specifically mentioned vaccines as a

possible " cause " for his four children with autism. Since Adam

was his " oldest " , why did he suspect vaccines as a possible cause in

opening remarks. I wished they had explored this family's experience

further....we may have learned a lot from these courageous parents who

continued having children after their four oldest diagnosed with autism.

What did they do differently for their younger....typical developing children?)

DR.

STORK: I think this is an excellent point. Although we debate this,

it's really important to let everyone know that most physicians support

vaccinations. We don't want to go back to a time when someone comes into

a hospital and we're worried about all these diseases that have been pretty

well wiped out of our children.

DR.

KARP: When you look at the MMR....this is very important.....a lot of

people talk about the MMR. There have been a number of international

studies that show no association between the MMR and autism.

DAN

AND LORI: Well, that's what has us so perplexed. Adam didn't get

the MMR till he was five.

(I think Adam is ten. the same age

as my grandson....who received numerous childhood vaccines that contained

thimerosal. Recommended for removal in 1999 but still on the shelves when

my little guy was given his " early vaccinations " )

DR.

GORDON: Vaccines don't cause all cases of autism....and...as far as

" blowing off " vaccines....not a chance. There are people with

increased risk factors who should get certain vaccines. As you just

said Jim (speaking to Dr. Sears), you wouldn't vaccinate this next child, this

family has a genetic or familial tendency for autism. Vaccines given

later are safer.

DR.

SEARS: It's very important for people at home to get the message

that if they don't have risk factors.....I don't want

everybody " blowing off " vaccines...because I don't want to go

back to the middle-ages.

DR.

GORDON: Neither do I.

DR.

SEARS: I don't think any pediatrician wants to see that.

DR.

KARP TO DR. GORDON: But, you are recommending deferring it for 6 -

12 - 24 months and that's a very different position than the vast majority.....

DR.

SEARS: Space them out a little bit.

DR.

GORDON: 99% of doctors disagree with me...and...I understand that.

DR.

KARP: Because there's no data to support your position.

DR.

STORK: We can debate this for the next 30 hours straight and we

are not going to come to any conclusion. The reality is, kids are exposed

to so many things now-a-days, yes, vaccines. There could prove to be

a link someday....we can't say there isn't, but, there's no proof now.....and....the

overwhelming majority of physicians obviously do support vaccinations right

now.

DR.

SEARS: But, it needs to be done safely.....there needs to be a safer

system than our current system. I'm still wondering....you guys have

seven kids.....four for seven so far, what made you think to go and try for

number eight?

DAN

AND LORI: We wanted a nice, big, family. I think it's crazy, but, I

was hoping maybe we could have another child that would be typical to

support....we're worried about those kids when we are gone....we're worried

about those 4 kids...when we're gone.

DR.

STORK: You guys are saints.

Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite

sites in one place. Try

it now.