Re: Re: 'the diagnosis'

February 16, 2006

In a message dated 2/16/2006 11:16:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

cppsych@... writes:

In my field,

however, you need to be able to pinpoint measurable data and/or find

scales or profiles that fit it more to where I could stand up and

defend myself to others if I had to.

I guess my question to you would be how do you pinpoint measurable data for

a child suspected of autism without DS? You would do the same for the child

with DS. Data collection can be taken the same way. We are constantly

taking data collection on Trisha and I can tell you this much, what she does

is

not typical of any normally functioning 5 year old and if it was then I would

be wondering why that child was not being tested.

Carol

Trishasmom

She isn't Typical, She's Trisha!

February 16, 2006

In a message dated 2/16/2006 11:16:28 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

cppsych@... writes:

I am wondering in some of your cases, what was an area

of high or low where a psychologist said that it was not " just

Down's " but also autism?

I must still be missing your point. My son had many of the lows on the

scale. No eye contact, no imaginative play, self stemming, no interaction with

others, no speech, etc....Have you met a child with the dual dx? If so, I'm

sure it would answer your questions.

Gail :-)

February 16, 2006

In a message dated 2/16/2006 11:16:11 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

cppsych@... writes:

I am wondering in some of your cases, what was an area

of high or low where a psychologist said that it was not " just

Down's " but also autism?

By the way, please do not take any of my comments as being

argumentative that a dual diagnosis does not exist. In my field,

however, you need to be able to pinpoint measurable data and/or find

scales or profiles that fit it more to where I could stand up and

defend myself to others if I had to.

Thanks

Hi,

First of all, welcome. What's your name? I like to address by name when

I respond. I am Donna, mom to Maddie (12, DS and autism) and four others.

Maddie's autism is pretty blatant and we had the unique experience of not

having to prove it to professionals. That is, those that SAW her.

There were those who didn't think it remotely possible that the two conditions

could co-exist, UNTIL they saw my child. So I suppose in that respect, we

were lucky.

Donna

February 16, 2006

I think I understand your question. It can be more difficult to diagnose autism

and probably other disorders in children with DS, but the way I look at it, all

the " typical " children I am familiar with who have DS but no autism diagnosis

are definitely different. They are sociable, people oriented, friendly,

communicate in some way or other or have a desire to communicate and generally

don't have feeding issues or other sensory problems like getting haircuts (not

liking to generalize,but.....). This is just from personal observations. Maybe

you will find the answer to your question if you become personally acquainted

with some " typical " DS kids. I think you will pick up on the differences.

Gigi

Jake's Mom

Re: 'the diagnosis'

> As a psychologist, you must know the scale to meet the autism

requirements.

> Our children are dx'd according to the scale, like all other

children. If

> they meet the requirements, they are dx'd with the dual

diagnosis. You know

> you can't dx on just one criteria. Am I missing something with

this question,

> because it doesn't make sense to me.

> Gail :-)

The DSM criteria for autism often says there is a deficit in an

area " appropriate to the developmental level. " Taken globally, we

woudl often refer to a student with Down's as having

a " developmental delay. "

In schools I know that the eligibility criteria are both exact and

vague - they always allow a little bit of room for some professional

judgement and to incorporate other areas.

I suppose my question is more of a practical one regarding the dual

diagnosis as opposed to a " differential diagnosis. "

When I have worked with a student of a more average ability level,

there are some clear highs and lows in certain areas of

functioning. I am wondering in some of your cases, what was an area

of high or low where a psychologist said that it was not " just

Down's " but also autism?

By the way, please do not take any of my comments as being

argumentative that a dual diagnosis does not exist. In my field,

however, you need to be able to pinpoint measurable data and/or find

scales or profiles that fit it more to where I could stand up and

defend myself to others if I had to.

Thanks

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February 16, 2006

Well that is what I was trying to say and I guess I didn't do too well. My first

son(who we adopted) is " Classically " autistic..in that he has echolalic

speech..just expresses what he wants(soda,sandwich..very concrete..all about

him!) Alaways lined up his toys..never played with them in a typical manner.

Lots of spinning, dangling socks( fixated on socks) Very limited diet. Goes wild

if changes or new things happen. Covers ears on any loud noise. Hates crowds. It

all started for him around 14 months(along with a VERY difficult heart

surgery..we saw a BIG change in him after surgery..physically better..all other

areas ..worse. I would say he is Zcrippled by autism.

Our daughter(9th of 9 children) and 6th of adopted children) has some of Andy's

" stuff " so I recognized it right away.( With Andy..I thought it was " Down

syndrome) She is only " lightly " affected by it if I were to compare them..but it

is still a big challange.I have to agree with you Gigi...get to know " regular "

kids who have D. s....and see some kids on the spectrum and the difference will

be evident.

Brigid

Re: 'the diagnosis'

> As a psychologist, you must know the scale to meet the autism

requirements.

> Our children are dx'd according to the scale, like all other

children. If

> they meet the requirements, they are dx'd with the dual

diagnosis. You know

> you can't dx on just one criteria. Am I missing something with

this question,

> because it doesn't make sense to me.

> Gail :-)

The DSM criteria for autism often says there is a deficit in an

area " appropriate to the developmental level. " Taken globally, we

woudl often refer to a student with Down's as having

a " developmental delay. "

In schools I know that the eligibility criteria are both exact and

vague - they always allow a little bit of room for some professional

judgement and to incorporate other areas.

I suppose my question is more of a practical one regarding the dual

diagnosis as opposed to a " differential diagnosis. "

When I have worked with a student of a more average ability level,

there are some clear highs and lows in certain areas of

functioning. I am wondering in some of your cases, what was an area

of high or low where a psychologist said that it was not " just

Down's " but also autism?

By the way, please do not take any of my comments as being

argumentative that a dual diagnosis does not exist. In my field,

however, you need to be able to pinpoint measurable data and/or find

scales or profiles that fit it more to where I could stand up and

defend myself to others if I had to.

Thanks

--------------------------------------------------

Checkout our homepage for information, bookmarks, and photos of

our kids. Share favorite bookmarks, ideas, and other information by including

them. Don't forget, messages are a permanent record of the archives for our

list. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/

--------------------------------------------

February 16, 2006

It would help me if I had a name so I could address you. When our son

was 41 he is now 43 he was diagnosed with autism. He had been having

problems at his residential home and a state agency case worker said he

needed a new psychological. I chose a psychologist who I had worked

with the deaf at a private psych hospital years ago. He was known to be

a good diagnostician and I wanted someone who worked with the deaf and

could sign. Over a period of months he observed at his home and

work, did some testing and talked to staff but within the first month he

began to question if anyone had ever said anything about having

autism, no one had. He consulted with another friend who is a clinical

consultant whose expertise is deafness and autism. They both agreed on

the eventual diagnosis. The psychologist said in his report, " The

examiner found evidence of autistic features that cannot solely

attributed to the Downs Syndrome or deafness. " And then went on to

explain each area of the autism DX. But the psychiatrist and other

medical professionals did not agree with the DX but did agree with the

recommendations and strategies of both consultations. If this was how

related to his environment and other people and these are the

strategies to use to make his life better then this is what should be

done. Since then a year ago he moved to a new residence with a

different agency that could better meet his needs. He still has his

challenges but they understand him and work together to make him a

happier person.

The NADD, an association for persons with developmental disabilities and

mental health needs, found at site: http://www.thenadd.org has been

working on The Diagnostic Manual for Persons with Intellectual

Disability (DM-ID) which is designed to facilitate a more accurate

diagnosis for children and adults with ID. It is to be a companion to

the DSM-IV-TR. They are presenting about this at their conference in

March in MA. It says they will be presenting the major features of the

Manual including the application of diagnostic categories and the use of

modified criteria. On the NADD website I notice they now have a video

titled: Dual Diagnosis: Autism and Co-Existing Disorders. I have

attended several of their conferences and purchased books, audio and

video products and they have been outstanding. Their Bulletin has some

excellent articles. Dr Ann Poindexter MD who is editor of the Bulletin

was also involved in the writing of the Manual.

Louise

Re: 'the diagnosis'

> As a psychologist, you must know the scale to meet the autism

requirements.

> Our children are dx'd according to the scale, like all other

children. If

> they meet the requirements, they are dx'd with the dual

diagnosis. You know

> you can't dx on just one criteria. Am I missing something with

this question,

> because it doesn't make sense to me.

> Gail :-)

The DSM criteria for autism often says there is a deficit in an

area " appropriate to the developmental level. " Taken globally, we

woudl often refer to a student with Down's as having

a " developmental delay. "

In schools I know that the eligibility criteria are both exact and

vague - they always allow a little bit of room for some professional

judgement and to incorporate other areas.

I suppose my question is more of a practical one regarding the dual

diagnosis as opposed to a " differential diagnosis. "

When I have worked with a student of a more average ability level,

there are some clear highs and lows in certain areas of

functioning. I am wondering in some of your cases, what was an area

of high or low where a psychologist said that it was not " just

Down's " but also autism?

By the way, please do not take any of my comments as being

argumentative that a dual diagnosis does not exist. In my field,

however, you need to be able to pinpoint measurable data and/or find

scales or profiles that fit it more to where I could stand up and

defend myself to others if I had to.

Thanks

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February 16, 2006

I suggest you chat with Dr. Molloy at Children's Hospital in

Cincinnati. She is currently involved in the Dual Dx research.

Re: 'the diagnosis'

> Maybe you will find the answer to your question if you become

> personally acquainted with some " typical " DS kids. I think you will

> pick up on the differences.

>>

>> Gigi

>

> I am getting an idea from some of you what I might be looking for.

> The problem in my current situation is that I have a couple referrals

> from parents w/ kids w/ DS who are wondering about autism as this

> becomes more of a buzz-word in some circles. The couple of students

> in question do not appear to have some of the features you are talking

> about that your DS/ASD kids have. If I go w/ the stats on the website

> it is becoming more difficult to tell people that there is a 93-90%

> chance that your DS child is NOT ASD. I just want to make sure I am

> not ruling out from a closed mind stance.

>

> --------------------------------------------------

> Checkout our homepage for information, bookmarks, and photos

> of our kids. Share favorite bookmarks, ideas, and other information by

> including them. Don't forget, messages are a permanent record of the

> archives for our list. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/

> --------------------------------------------

>

February 16, 2006

Our kids stand out like sore thumbs when grouped with other kids with Ds.

However, they seem to fit in when grouped with other kids under the Autistic

Umbrella.

Liz