Re: Please help--I need help with this mold report

August 25, 2010

Colony forming units per cubic meter. Once again, and I am certain that Carl

will chime in. There are no standards regarding what is acceptable and what is

not. If you are symptomatic it is not acceptable for you.

As I have written in this forum before, there are multiple contaminants in WDB.

Several species of fungi, several species of Gram negative and positive

bacteria, particulates ranging from less than one micron to spore size. The

less than one micron is up to 500 times more concentrated than are spores.

Microbial volatile organic compounds (bacteria and fungi), beta-glucans and

galactammans (fungi), endotoxins (Gram negative bacteria) and toxins produced by

both fungi and bacteria. I suggest that those who do not understand this read

the POA document that Carl and I worked on. In addition, you can go to my web

site and look at the section on biocontaminants in WDB.

[] Please help--I need help with this mold report

Please help me understand what these levels mean.

August 25, 2010

What lab did your testing Advocate Now? Was it tested, air w culture plates or

ERMI, etc?

>

> Please help me understand what these levels mean. " Unit 4 " is my condo. What

does CFU/m3 mean and what is an acceptable or normal or average level?

Experts--please? I know that the basement is horrible and the carpet even worse.

I'm just trying to figure out what it means for the IAQ in my condo.

>

August 25, 2010

I did read most documents on your web site, but will have to read them again. I

didn't see anywhere discussion about there not being an acceptable levels

standard. If there are no standards, then what is the point of mold testing???

I know that you have stated that there are bacteria, etc. in a WDB but I'm

trying to understand *my* situation and so far, all I have is a mold report and

nothing to judge it by.

Of course I am symptomatic; it's what I stated. I've said before I have a range

of symptoms and I am ill to the point of severe impact on functionality.

So there's no advice or direction you can provide me with? No suggestion about

where to turn medically? As I have said before, I'm going to Mayo to get tested

for fungal sinusitis but what can I ask my doctor to look for with this

gastroenteritis, etc., that is making me drop pound after pound? What could I

try to do to salvage my situation--tear out carpet in the common areas or clean

it or is this a lost cause?

I'm not asking for certainty. I'm asking for helpful advice. I don't know that I

need to understand the nitty gritty about endotoxins or toxins to know how to

find medical help or whether I should just walk away (I mean, can a place

colonized like this be made clean? If I could get the association to tear out

carpet, if I had my condo itself remediated?). One person has told me to walk

away, but going back to Carl's question, Who do you believe, I listen to

everyone but give different weight to different opinions based on the experience

and knowledge of the individuals. So I'm asking for your help.

On Aug 25, 2010, at 10:14 PM, " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

wrote:

Colony forming units per cubic meter. Once again, and I am certain that Carl

will chime in. There are no standards regarding what is acceptable and what is

not. If you are symptomatic it is not acceptable for you.

As I have written in this forum before, there are multiple contaminants in WDB.

Several species of fungi, several species of Gram negative and positive

bacteria, particulates ranging from less than one micron to spore size. The less

than one micron is up to 500 times more concentrated than are spores. Microbial

volatile organic compounds (bacteria and fungi), beta-glucans and galactammans

(fungi), endotoxins (Gram negative bacteria) and toxins produced by both fungi

and bacteria. I suggest that those who do not understand this read the POA

document that Carl and I worked on. In addition, you can go to my web site and

look at the section on biocontaminants in WDB.

[] Please help--I need help with this mold report

Please help me understand what these levels mean.

August 25, 2010

Thanks for your response, Barb. It was ambient air testing with culture plates.

The carpet was done by hitting the carpet with a spatula and capturing the dust

that came up.

On Aug 25, 2010, at 10:20 PM, " barb b w " <barb1283@...> wrote:

What lab did your testing Advocate Now? Was it tested, air w culture plates or

ERMI, etc?

>

> Please help me understand what these levels mean. " Unit 4 " is my condo. What

does CFU/m3 mean and what is an acceptable or normal or average level?

Experts--please? I know that the basement is horrible and the carpet even worse.

I'm just trying to figure out what it means for the IAQ in my condo.

>

August 25, 2010

AN,

If the walls are covered with mold you don't need mold testing.

You need mold removal. There's not enough detail to venture a

guess about the results. I have more questions about this than

there are mold spores in a cubic meter of air <grin>.

Speaking of a cubic meter of air, CFU/m3 means colony forming

units per cubic meter of air. They are called CFU rather than

simply " colonies " because sometimes several spores can land on

the same spot and several form only one colony. So a spore

count and a colony count may not be the same. Which is very

likely in your sample for Unit 4, below.

Because almost all sampling methods actually collect only a

fraction of a full cubic meter of air, the number of colonies which

actually grow on a plate will be multiplied by some factor to get

the calculated results of CFU/m3. All but one of your samples

had a multiplier of 20. Sample 4 multiplier was 100. So even with

1/5 as much air the plate was overloaded. Probably had lots of

spores in one spot growing only one colony.

There are no " average " levels or " acceptable " levels or " normal "

levels for mold. Mold is always there and the numbers keep

changing. However, there can be comparisons of one location to

another and certainly you can compare levels where you react

with where you don't react. But be aware that you can take

another set of samples at a different time and get opposite

results, or at least very different results. Mold in the air is lumpy.

As for your symptoms, I'm not qualified to venture a guess but

I've never had a client react as you described to WDB exposure.

Dr Thrasher can give you a better idea from the toxicology point

of view.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

Please help me understand what these levels mean. " Unit 4 " is my condo.

What does CFU/m3 mean and what is an acceptable or normal or

average level? Experts--please? I know that the basement is horrible and

the carpet even worse. I'm just trying to figure out what it means for the

IAQ in my condo.

Also--I just got sick for the third time in 30 days with gastroenteritis. Am

trying to recover. I can't afford to fly out to an expert to see if this

gastroenteritis is caused by fungi or caused by bacteria from the mold or

whatnot. Is there something I should ask my doctor to look for

specifically, perhaps in my stool sample? I get it, and then I recover,

return to normal or get constipation, and then I get it again. I don't think

it's IBS because I'm getting nausea and vomiting, etc., with this, and I've

been diagnosed with IBS before--this isn't anything like it. It FEELS like

my body is rejecting toxins.

Two nights ago I went to the ER because I started cramping and then my

belly distended as though I was in the second trimester of pregnancy (I

weigh 109 lbs.). I started to not be able to breathe. After a night of

diarrhea (17 trips in 12 hours) and belching (smelled like beer--extremely

acidic), waves of cramping and expulsion, it finally went down.

Thanks,

AN

Sample location and time

CFU/m3

and number of colonies on plate

Molds found

1.

Unit 4

50 liter SAS air sample

Ambient sample

700/m3

35 colonies on

plate

17 Cladosporium spp

12 Aspergillus spp

3 Penicillium spp

2 Alternaria spp

1 Aspergillus ochraceous

2.

Basement common area

50 liter SAS air sample

Ambient sample

Greater than 4380/m3

219 colonies on

plate

Sample overloaded, count

is a low estimate

48% Penicillium spp

40% Aspergillus ochraceous

10% Aspergillus spp

2$ Cladosporium spp

3.

Outdoors

50 liter SAS air sample

Ambient sample

1780/m3

89 colonies on plate

78 Cladosporium spp

5 sterile

fungi

3 Alternaria spp

2 Penicillium spp

1 Aspergillus sp

4.

2nd floor, rear stairway landing carpet

10 liter SAS air sample

Aggressive sample

Greater than 21,900/m3

219 colonies on

plate

Sample overloaded, count

is a low estimate

45% Penicillium spp

24% Cladosporium spp

15% Aspergillus spp

15% Aspergillus ochraceous

1% Aspergillus niger

Dear Ms. (Advocate Now),

Enclosed is a table listing the results of mold testing

performed at ... on August 17, 2010. These results show much elevated

levels

of mold in the basement of this property.

The molds found in the basement sample are present in lower numbers

in

the ambient (50-liter) sample collected in Unit 4, your residence. They

are much in evidence in the

aggressive carpet sample collected out your back door as well. You can

see by comparing the outdoor and

the basement sample that the molds found indoors are not the same as

outdoors.

I observed the basement walls to be covered with mold. You told me tht

these walls are to be

cleaned. I hope that the work will

be performed carefully to avoid further contaminating upstairs space.

In conclusion, this property has a serious mold

problem. Hopefully the corrective

steps will make your home more comfortable for you.

August 25, 2010

Wow, thank you. I never knew all this about spore counts vs. colony counts. I

got the testing because I wondered why, even with avoiding the basement for two

months, and being on the second floor, I could still be reacting so badly. The

condo association is remediating the mold but will not pay to fix the moisture

source. And I doubt they would do anything about the carpet. If I lived in a

perfect world and they did vote to fix the carpet problem, is the only

remediation solution what I think it is, removal? I don't have carpet on my unit

and tore all of it out when I owned my single family home, but I don't have the

luxury right now of making my own decisions.

I do have classic symptoms aside from gastroenteritis: chronic, very painful,

head-wants-to-explode sinusitis, ear fluid buildup, constant (also painful; ear

hurts when I move my head, sometimes throbs even when I'm not turning it);

dizziness and vertigo; fainting; eyes burn; nose runs or is plugged up and

stings; purple shiners under my eyes; nausea; labored breathing; weakness;

stabbing headaches.

I thought I have read that gastroenteritis can be caused by fungus as well. At

the very least, my immune system seems suppressed and so I may be susceptible.

Or bacteria from the environment is to blame.

I still feel really confused but somehow I thought the report would fix that. I

am in such pain when I am home versus when I am not that I have to leave. The

question is, how? No one can really answer that for me.

On Aug 25, 2010, at 11:03 PM, " Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...> wrote:

AN,

If the walls are covered with mold you don't need mold testing.

You need mold removal. There's not enough detail to venture a

guess about the results. I have more questions about this than

there are mold spores in a cubic meter of air <grin>.

Speaking of a cubic meter of air, CFU/m3 means colony forming

units per cubic meter of air. They are called CFU rather than

simply " colonies " because sometimes several spores can land on

the same spot and several form only one colony. So a spore

count and a colony count may not be the same. Which is very

likely in your sample for Unit 4, below.

Because almost all sampling methods actually collect only a

fraction of a full cubic meter of air, the number of colonies which

actually grow on a plate will be multiplied by some factor to get

the calculated results of CFU/m3. All but one of your samples

had a multiplier of 20. Sample 4 multiplier was 100. So even with

1/5 as much air the plate was overloaded. Probably had lots of

spores in one spot growing only one colony.

There are no " average " levels or " acceptable " levels or " normal "

levels for mold. Mold is always there and the numbers keep

changing. However, there can be comparisons of one location to

August 25, 2010

Dr. Thrasher, sorry if my response to you had a crabby tone. I am appreciative

that you responded. I want to thank you and just say that I'm tired and

frustrated and confused, but that I didn't mean to direct it at you. I thank

you, again.

On Aug 25, 2010, at 10:14 PM, " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

wrote:

Colony forming units per cubic meter. Once again, and I am certain that Carl

will chime in. There are no standards regarding what is acceptable and what is

not. If you are symptomatic it is not acceptable for you.

August 26, 2010

No harm taken. I understand stand.

Jack-Dwayne: Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Off: 916-745-4703

Cell: 575-937-1150

L. Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

916-745-4703 - Off

775-309-3994 - Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this message

(and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly prohibited

and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this message has been

served, please destroy the original message contents. If you have received this

message in error, please reply immediately to advise the sender of the

miscommunication and then delete the message and any copies you have printed.

Thank you in advance for your compliance.

August 26, 2010

AN I hope you dont mind me adding my .02 but if leaving your condo makes you

feel better than the answer to your question is obvious. My advice is to leave

just long enough to clear your head so you can think clearly and make a decision

on what course of action you should take. I know it's a difficult thing to do as

Im facing the same problem in terms of whether I should stay here or move back

to the hotel I lived in for 4 months.

I dont want to be away from my g/f especially after we spent so much money on

trying to make this house safe for me. She didnt have to do the things she's

done but she's done them because she loves me and to think that I may have no

choice but to move is killing me. The past two days Im finally getting some

relief from the dizziness and balance problems I was experience, had I not

started to feel better I would have had no choice but to leave.

Best of luck

>

> I did read most documents on your web site, but will have to read them again.

I didn't see anywhere discussion about there not being an acceptable levels

standard. If there are no standards, then what is the point of mold testing???

August 26, 2010

At one time it was suggested that the indoor spore counts should be less than

outdoor counts. However, this has turned out to be a fallacy. The problem is

that many still believe testing laboratories still thank that this is the hall

mark test to use. Please accept that it is not and that there are no

recommended levels of spores in the indoor environment. The fixation on mold

spore counts came before it was understood that there are more than just molds

in WDB.

It you have become ill from the exposure, there is a strong likelihood that the

home may not be cleanable to meet your needs.

There are only a hand full of physicians in the U.S. who understand and can

diagnose illness resulting from exposures in WDB. I suggest that you go to Mayo

and see what they say about the chronic sinusitis. The gastroenteritis is a

common condition seen as a result of bacteria, viruses, fungi and toxins. The

G.I. problems you are having also need diagnosis.

August 26, 2010

I disagree with Carl's statement that if you have mold on the walls you do not

need testing.

I always recommend that an ERMI test be done to determine mold species, not

genus, but species. You have at least to two potentially dangerous Aspergillus

species: ochraceus and niger.Ochraceus produces ochratoxin A, while niger

produces gliotoxin. However, other species may be present that were not

identified. For example, Stachybotrys may not be found in air samples, but

still may be present. Tape lift samples can make this determination as well as

the ERMI test.

Jack-Dwayne: Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Off: 916-745-4703

Cell: 575-937-1150

L. Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

916-745-4703 - Off

775-309-3994 - Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this message

(and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly prohibited

and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this message has been

served, please destroy the original message contents. If you have received this

message in error, please reply immediately to advise the sender of the

miscommunication and then delete the message and any copies you have printed.

Thank you in advance for your compliance.

August 26, 2010

Jack, you are right.

What I should have said is if you have mold on the walls you do

not need testing to know there is mold and that it needs to be

removed - plus the moisture source identified and stopped. This

is by far the most common situation. If the mold is removed

properly (according to consensus practices) and your reactions

stop, then you are done.

However, there are medical and legal reasons for knowing what

kind of molds are involved (but must be with appropriate and

reliable testing plus lab analysis and then interpretation by who

collected the samples).

If the molds identified are ones with the potential for producing

mycotoxins, there is a need to know, and it is worth the cost, then

mycotoxins analysis of environmental samples and human

tissue/fluid samples may be appropriate. And that is where I fully

agree with you.

Also, use the ERMI portion of the lab report which identifies the

species, not the moldiness index number. PCR and QPCR

analysis will give you the same information as the ERMI but for a

much larger number of genera and their species.

My attempts to keep it simple for those who don't want the detail

often results in leaving out the critical minute details. I guess we

need to begin labeling the level of information. Like, general,

moderate, complex. Or, in other words, mostly useful but there

are exceptions and here is how your determine that.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

I disagree with Carl's statement that if you have mold on the walls you do

not need testing.

I always recommend that an ERMI test be done to determine mold

species, not genus, but species. You have at least to two potentially

dangerous Aspergillus species: ochraceus and niger.Ochraceus produces

ochratoxin A, while niger produces gliotoxin. However, other species

may be present that were not identified. For example, Stachybotrys may

not be found in air samples, but still may be present. Tape lift samples

can make this determination as well as the ERMI test.

Jack-Dwayne: Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Off: 916-745-4703

Cell: 575-937-1150

L. Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

916-745-4703 - Off

775-309-3994 - Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this

message (and any attachments) without my prior written consent is

strictly prohibited and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended

purpose of this message has been served, please destroy the original

message contents. If you have received this message in error, please

reply immediately to advise the sender of the miscommunication and

then delete the message and any copies you have printed. Thank you in

advance for your compliance.

August 26, 2010

Thanks Carl. You kept this discussion simple enough. Yes we need to know the

species. If it is a legal case we can I.D. many of these contaminants. Here is

an example of case I am currently working up. The Woman, her fiancé, the

daughter and the cat are all ill.

ERMI revealed all of the nasty molds. Bacteria cultures revealed Gram Negative

Positive bacteria. Endotoxins revealed 2.5 million per gram of dust. The woman

is positive for urine mycotoxins. She has liver disease. The cat is dieing of

liver disease. We will do necropsy, mold PCR and mycotoxins when the cat

expires. We are currently doing the mycotoxins in the apartment where she lived

and awaiting results. She has 10.5 neurological abnormalities using the Kilburn

tests. We are doing Biotoxin pathway on her as well as polymorphism of CP450

and glutathione transferases. The Fiancé and daughter will be doing the same

diagnostics.

Yes, we found the molds that produce trichothecenes, aflatoxins and ochratoxins

using the ERMI test. This is the reason we are doing the mycotoxins in the

apartment.

Jack-Dwayne: Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Off: 916-745-4703

Cell: 575-937-1150

L. Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

916-745-4703 - Off

775-309-3994 - Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this message

(and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly prohibited

and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this message has been

served, please destroy the original message contents. If you have received this

message in error, please reply immediately to advise the sender of the

miscommunication and then delete the message and any copies you have printed.

Thank you in advance for your compliance.

August 26, 2010

Thank you for your valuable information about the gastroenteritis as being

potentially related to the water damage and for the advice to start with Mayo. I

will look up more about the toxins on your web site so that I can understand

what I may be facing. I had no idea that the indoor/outdoor mold spore

comparison was outmoded. I will also look up the ERMI further. Many thanks for

all your great information and help. There is obviously much that I

misunderstood.Â

From: Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. <toxicologist1@...>

Subject: Re: [] Please help--I need help with this mold report

Date: Thursday, August 26, 2010, 4:54 PM

I disagree with Carl's statement that if you have mold on the walls you do not

need testing.

I always recommend that an ERMI test be done to determine mold species, not

genus, but species. You have at least to two potentially dangerous Aspergillus

species: ochraceus and niger.Ochraceus produces ochratoxin A, while niger

produces gliotoxin. However, other species may be present that were not

identified. For example, Stachybotrys may not be found in air samples, but

still may be present. Tape lift samples can make this determination as well as

the ERMI test.

Jack-Dwayne: Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Off: 916-745-4703

Cell: 575-937-1150

L. Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

916-745-4703 - Off

775-309-3994 - Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this message

(and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly prohibited

and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this message has been

served, please destroy the original message contents. If you have received this

message in error, please reply immediately to advise the sender of the

miscommunication and then delete the message and any copies you have printed.

Thank you in advance for your compliance.

August 26, 2010

Thanks for the clarification. I will look up ERMI and PCR so that I can

understand the terms and what they mean and what further work I could do on

this. I definitely think the mold (allergies and toxins, bacteria, all that

stuff that I'll read up on) that is the connection between the myriad symptoms

I've experienced after moving here, going back to before I even realized there

was mold in the building and water damage. Thanks again for your good advice.

From: Carl E. Grimes <grimes@...>

Subject: Re: [] Please help--I need help with this mold report

Date: Thursday, August 26, 2010, 11:36 PM

Jack, you are right.

What I should have said is if you have mold on the walls you do

not need testing

August 26, 2010

When I'm exposed to something continuouslty I get the 7 mos pregnant bloated &

constipated bad. At my worst my breathe didn't smell like beer but garbage. I

wasn't digesting - the food was just rotting. The methane coming from my gut

made it hard to breathe -like I was being gassed. The house was moldy & the

neighbors dryer fumes probably wafted in more than I knew.

>

> AN,

>

> If the walls are covered with mold you don't need mold testing.

> You need mold removal. There's not enough detail to venture a

> guess about the results. I have more questions about this than

> there are mold spores in a cubic meter of air <grin>.

>

> Speaking of a cubic meter of air, CFU/m3 means colony forming

> units per cubic meter of air. They are called CFU rather than

> simply " colonies " because sometimes several spores can land on

> the same spot and several form only one colony. So a spore

> count and a colony count may not be the same. Which is very

> likely in your sample for Unit 4, below.

>

> Because almost all sampling methods actually collect only a

> fraction of a full cubic meter of air, the number of colonies which

> actually grow on a plate will be multiplied by some factor to get

> the calculated results of CFU/m3. All but one of your samples

August 26, 2010

Jack,

You not only described " appropriate " testing but " relevant " testing.

You also described how to close the loop of evidence to

demonstrate exposure rather than just presence. And not just

mold and other specifics but the combinations (appropriately

sampled and analyzed in an accredited lab). They are in the

environment, in the body, it's in the bodily excretions and these

types of substances can cause health effects consistent with

what has been medically diagnosed.

Simple air samples or just a couple of any kind of samples by

themselves won't accomplish this. And the history of events is

important.

Beautiful example!

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

Thanks Carl. You kept this discussion simple enough. Yes we need to

know the species. If it is a legal case we can I.D. many of these

contaminants. Here is an example of case I am currently working up. The

Woman, her fiancé, the daughter and the cat are all ill.

ERMI revealed all of the nasty molds. Bacteria cultures revealed Gram

Negative Positive bacteria. Endotoxins revealed 2.5 million per gram of

dust. The woman is positive for urine mycotoxins. She has liver disease.

The cat is dieing of liver disease. We will do necropsy, mold PCR and

mycotoxins when the cat expires. We are currently doing the mycotoxins

in the apartment where she lived and awaiting results. She has 10.5

neurological abnormalities using the Kilburn tests. We are doing

Biotoxin pathway on her as well as polymorphism of CP450 and

glutathione transferases. The Fiancé and daughter will be doing the same

diagnostics.

Yes, we found the molds that produce trichothecenes, aflatoxins and

ochratoxins using the ERMI test. This is the reason we are doing the

mycotoxins in the apartment.