Re: AirCleanerUpdate

[Guest guest]

Kathy,

Here's what I like about your post: You conducted a thorough,

reasoned, and self-challanging evaluation of a product with cross-

checking. You found what works for you in various rooms at

different speeds while acknowledging others may have different

results and needs. And on top of that you got great terms and

conditions!

Amazing and very valuable!

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

Hi Group-

The recent postings on this topic have given me an incentive to get off my

butt and sharemyexperienceon findingan air cleaner that I can tolerate

and also works for my particularrequired filtration situation.

I am beyond thrilled to report in the over 10 years that I have been sick

with MCS and more than16 air cleaners that I have bought and returned

including the tops names like IQ,AllerAir, Austin, etc.....I have FINALLY

found an air cleaner that I can tolerate, which is a miracle due to the

severity ofmyMCS.

My downside experience withbrands I've tried:

Loaded with plastics, foams, glues, HEPA, location of the motor,lack of

variable speed control, lack of carbon options, chemicals used on

motor/outer cabinet/filters.

My upside experiencewithbrands I've tried:

Technical expertise in effective chemical filtration, recommendations by

key environmental experts like Rea/Patel//Leiberman,

manufacturer cleanroom offgassing program for customers w/MCS

(Austin Air has one).

Current situation:

This summer I hadwindows installed in my home and in spite of tons of

environmental precautions, I now have some chemical issues with the

interior environment of my home.Nothing that time won't resolve but

in the meantime, needed some air quality options fast.Had IAQ experts

evaluatemy home, had a bunch of options andthe bottom line best

option to get me through this winter was effective air filtration.

Ugh..oh no. Here we go again trying to find an air cleaner I can

tolerate.Combined with all the cleaners from past years and

nowaddinganIQ Air and also an Austin that I bought/returned this past

fall....I tripped upon a company called AirPura.

http://www.airpura.com/index.html

Ton of phone calls, liked what I was hearing, had the key features I

wanted, many options ideal for someone w/MCS. So, Inarrowed it down

to their model C600 and also the C600DLX.

Positive highlights on their C600 and C600DLX models for me:

No HEPA

Poly or Cotton prefilters

HEPA like barrier filter and post filter

All metal carbon canister and ends

Carbon canister available in glued and non-glued

Glued canister uses AFM sealant

Non-glued canister hasscrewed ends andcan be refilled

Benign felt gasket

Motor is truly a post filtration location

360 degree mesh intake (like Austin Air design)

360 degree air outflow

18 or 26 lb carbon canisters

3 " deep. 26lb carbon canister

Variable speed motor

Powerful 560CFM capacity motor

Effective up to 2000 sf

Bakedexterior cabinet

No poly, no plastics, no treated filters or gaskets

Biggest difference between C600 vs C600DLX:

Model C600 hasprefilter,coconut shell carbon with sandwiched

carbonfilters, post filter.

Model C600DLX is same design but hascoconut shell impregnated

w/potassium alumina. This machine was developed for the toxic

Chinese drywall folks down south thus the impregnated media to capture

the formaldehyde.

Test runof both machines:

So I ordered both machines. With these two machine being totally equal

except one has impregnated carbon and the other does not...I did a side

by side comparison.Since AirPura machines don't have a lot of the toxic

stuff like other machines do,this test allowed me to finally do a

comparable test to narrow down what the heck really bothers me the

most about these air cleaners. Other than the obvious suspects like the

plastics and foams,I have always suspected HEPA bother me in addition

to the carbon. Well now I had two machines with no HEPA, no plastics,

no foams..so it pretty much gave me a rare opportunityto see if it's the

different types of carbon media.And becauseof this side by side test, I

now finally know for sure.

I putthe coconut shell carbon C600 in one room and the C600DLX

w/impregnated carbon in another room. Within 24 hours and like many

MCS people, I too found thatthere was no doubt that the impregnated

carbon bothers me.Theplain coconut shella little, but not too bad.

Sooo then I expanded my test to the speed settings on the variable speed

motor.I played around with lowering themotor speed and found

that " sweet spot " on the coconut shell machine that not only did the

machine no longer bother me at all BUT it also was still effective

withremoving the chemical problem I have in my home. I could never

find that " sweet spot " on the DLX model so with the machines being

equivalent except for the impregnated carbon...now I knowthe

impregnated carbondoes bother me.

So my test conclusion is that between no HEPA, coconut shell carbon

and thevariable speed motor...I thinkall are contributing to my

tolerance ofthis C600 machine.I already bought a 2ndmachine and

hope to scrounge up enough $$ to buy a3rd machine at the end of this

month.

The 1stmachineis in mybedroom and ison the very lowest setting, is

very quiet and keeping up well w/the chemicals.

The 2nd machine is amazing as it's keeping up with a lr/droom combo

that has a cathedralceiling andis where 8 of the windows are

located.That machine is a little under the 1/2 way setting on the

variable speed motor and is keeping up extremely well with the

offgassing chemicals.Thisimpresses me considering it is not an enclosed

room and is managing thecathedral air space.Once again, I have found

that " sweet spot " where it is just high enough to keep up with the

chemicals but on the perfect speed where I don't react to thecarbon

expellingin the air outflow. Coconut shell is not considered by manyto

be very effective w/formaldehyde and other heavy duty chemicals but

that's a trade off I am totally ok with. The MSDS sheets on my chemical

situation doesn't involve formaldehyde anyway...or so it says. But either

way forme to have FINALLY found an air cleaner that I can tolerate is

SUCH a huge victory.

My 3rd machine will be ordered I hope by the end of the month or as $

allows. That machine will go upstairs in the loft and be positioned to

capture the loft itself as well at the two attaching bedrooms. Although

the machine down in the cathedral living room has hugely reduced

theamount of chemicals fumes migrating up there,combined with the

upstairs windows I still need an exclusive machine up there.

I also would likea 4th machine to coverthe kitchen, which iswalled off

sorta by itself. But not gonna happen financially. So what I am doing is

when I know that Ineed to spend time in the kitchen, I roll the

cathedrallr/droom machine over to straddle thekitchen and run iton

high for 10 minutes or sorecycling the air in the room numerous

times.I then turn it down to the " sweet spot " where it doesn't bother me

and voila, can do what I need to do in the kitchen.

For anyone whodoes not know what variable speed is...many air

cleaners come with low/medium/high type dial settings or maybe5

settings like lo/lomed/med/medhigh/high..something like that. A

variable speed motordoes not havepreset speeds like that. On these

AirPura dials,there isnonotched feeling on the dial as you turn the air

speed up or down.It'sa smooth dial that you can scooch up or down one

hair at a time.This allows me to find that truly perfect spot that is just

enough speed to move the air and eradicate the chemicals but low

enough to not bother me.

Years ago, I owned a couple of AllerAir machines.

http://allerair.com/

That was back in the day before they had the MCS line and also the

varible speed motors. They now have variable speed motors on some of

their models for those that think such a feature may be of value to them.

I have seen numerousMCS people post about success with their

AirMedic line. They also have the AllerAir MCS line of machines made

with cotton filters, metal carbon canisters, etc. I think that AllerAir may

still requirethe purchase of a test kit before purchasing a machine,

which is then applied to the purchase of a machine.They offermachines

with numerous carbon options such as impregnated carbons, zeolite,

etc.

For those posting about Austin Air, I had the Plus model and only at the

very top speed did it keep up with the chemicals in my house. But at top

speed, it also spewedtheoffgassing of it's foam, glue, plastic motor

lubricant, etc made it intolerable for me. Like someone else in

thisgroupposting about Dr Rea recommending Austin...so did his

protege/my environ doc Dr Sherry as well. To be honest, having

owned and Austin andopened it up and seen what's inside..I am shocked

that they are so highly recommended for people w/MCS. Maybe it's

because of theirawarenessof MCS and the offgassing program that they

offer to us.

Oh yes and BTW...for anyone inthe market for an air cleaner..listen to

this one. I found a distributorwhere I am buyingmy machines and

check this out:

-doesnot collect sale tax outside Virginia

-they pay shopping to you

-60 day unconditional money back guarantee

-they pay return shipping

-no restocking fee except for certain exclusions.

Yes that's right and just to recap....no outside Virginia tax, no shipping

both ways, no restocking fee, 60 day return policy.Unheard ofin the

world of air cleaners, as many of us know!!

So there, that's my report on my air cleaner saga..lol..I am SOOO

grateful to have found this company AirPura and have these C600

machines.I can now at least tolerate my homeand buyenough time

untilwe open up our houses in the spring. Sounds dramatic but know

that otherMCS people understandwhen I say that I feel like these are

saving my life right now.

Kathy

[Guest guest]

Hi Kathy,

 

You sure covered everything but the price of the C600.  Would you mind sharing

that with us?  (I went into the site but did not see a price)

 

....Corky

Hi Group-

 

The recent postings on this topic have given me an incentive to

....share my experience on finding an air cleaner that I can tolerate and

also works for my particular required filtration situation................

 

I have FINALLY found an air cleaner that I can tolerate, which is a miracle due

to the severity of my MCS.........called AirPura..... their model C600.   

speed to move the air and eradicate the chemicals but low enough to not bother

me.  

   

Kathy

[Guest guest]

Here is a supplier :

http://www.air-purifiers-superstore.com/airpura.html

 

 

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

________________________________

From: corky lux <corkylux1@...>

Sent: Mon, January 24, 2011 2:39:57 PM

Subject: Re: [] AirCleanerUpdate

 

Hi Kathy,

 

You sure covered everything but the price of the C600.  Would you mind sharing

that with us?  (I went into the site but did not see a price)

 

....Corky

[Guest guest]

Hi Carl-

Thank you very much for your kind post and looks like we have a little mutual

admiration society here..lol.. With you being an IAQ guy, this group is SO

lucky to have someone of your caliber willing to continually share your

invaluable expertise. Your website clearly communicates that you have been in

the trenches yourself only to arise and make use of life's turn of events

through your chosen profession. Or perhaps I should say...the profession that

chose you...lol..

One of the many gifts buried in a life challenge is how we use that experience

to help others. And you for sure, are such a stellar example of just that.

Thanks for all that you are doing to help the individual homeowner to writing

books to involvement in the various IAQ Associations. It all adds up to making

a difference.

Take Care

Kathy

>

> Kathy,

>

> Here's what I like about your post: You conducted a thorough,

> reasoned, and self-challanging evaluation of a product with cross-

> checking. You found what works for you in various rooms at

> different speeds while acknowledging others may have different

> results and needs. And on top of that you got great terms and

> conditions!

>

> Amazing and very valuable!

>

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you Kathy for your experience with the air purifiers.  I know we are all

different but it is a hudge help in selecting them.  Why do hepa filters 

bother

you ?  

 

 I had IQ and I did well with it with another air purifier to collect the

potassium alumina from it.  So I had a combo too. Felt that worked best for me.

That was then.

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

________________________________

From: " baahstun@... " <baahstun@...>

Sick Buildings < >

Sent: Sun, January 23, 2011 7:20:03 PM

Subject: [] AirCleanerUpdate

 

Hi Group-

 

The recent postings on this topic have given me an incentive to get off my butt

and share my experience on finding an air cleaner that I can tolerate and

also

works for my particular required filtration situation.

 

I am beyond thrilled to report in the over 10 years that I have been sick with

MCS and more than 16 air cleaners that I have bought and returned including the

tops names like IQ, AllerAir, Austin, etc.....I have FINALLY found an air

cleaner that I can tolerate, which is a miracle due to the severity of my MCS.

 

My downside experience with brands I've tried:

Loaded with plastics, foams, glues, HEPA, location of the motor, lack of

variable speed control, lack of carbon options, chemicals used on motor/outer

cabinet/filters.

 

My upside experience with brands I've tried:

Technical expertise in effective chemical filtration, recommendations by key

environmental experts like Rea/Patel//Leiberman, manufacturer

[Guest guest]

Thank you, Kathy. Keep up your contributions also.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

(fm my Blackberry)

[] Re: AirCleanerUpdate

Hi Carl-

Thank you very much for your kind post and looks like we have a little mutual

admiration society here..lol.. With you being an IAQ guy, this group is SO

lucky to have someone of your caliber willing to continually share your

invaluable expertise. Your website clearly communicates that you have been in

the trenches yourself only to arise and make use of life's turn of events

through your chosen profession. Or perhaps I should say...the profession that

chose you...lol..

One of the many gifts buried in a life challenge is how we use that experience

to help others. And you for sure, are such a stellar example of just that.

Thanks for all that you are doing to help the individual homeowner to writing

books to involvement in the various IAQ Associations. It all adds up to making

a difference.

Take Care

Kathy

>

> Kathy,

>

> Here's what I like about your post: You conducted a thorough,

> reasoned, and self-challanging evaluation of a product with cross-

> checking. You found what works for you in various rooms at

> different speeds while acknowledging others may have different

> results and needs. And on top of that you got great terms and

> conditions!

>

> Amazing and very valuable!

>

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Corky-

The C600 lists for $800.00

The C600DLX lists for $850.00

There are 10% online coupons floating around for my particular distributor so I

got my C600 for $720.00. No shipping, no sales tax.

With the DLX that I returned...same thing. But under their unconditional return

policy, the distributor paid returned shipping and I got my refund without being

tagged with any restocking charges. Such a deal.

AirPura considers their biggest design competitor to be Austin because of their

belief in the 360 degree air intake is the most effective method of air intake.

But unlike Austin, their air output is also 360 degree. I personally consider

them to be similar to AllerAir in looks and size except the only AllerAir

machine that is similar in design is their AirMedic line, which is effective on

much less square feet. The AllerAir MCS and AirMedic machines are in the

$900.00-$1400.00 range.

Kathy

>

> Hi Kathy,

>  

> You sure covered everything but the price of the C600.  Would you mind

sharing that with us?  (I went into the site but did not see a price)

>  

> ...Corky

[Guest guest]

Hi Mayleen-

The APSuperstore is one of the many companies I researched and was second best

to the distributor I eventually found.

APS does have a better than some return policy...30 days without restocking fee.

BUT the customer is responsible to pay for the return shipping which ranges

around $25.00-$40.00 depending upon where the customer lives. AND unless

something has changed, they also deduct the original outgoing shipping upon

receipt of the returned machine:

http://www.air-purifiers-superstore.com/contact_us.html

Typical with many companies selling air cleaners is 15-25% restocking plus

shipping both ways. That's why this distributor I found is such an incredible

find.

Kathy

>

> Here is a supplier :

>

> http://www.air-purifiers-superstore.com/airpura.html

>  

>  

> God Bless !!

> dragonflymcs

> Mayleen

>

[Guest guest]

THIS MESSAGE IS BEING RELEASED FROM PENDING FOLDER WITH SOME REMINDER TO NEVER

TAKE ADVICE FROM ONE PERSON BUT TO ALWAYS DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH. .

Hi Mayleen-

I know, never ceases to amaze how not only different MCS is from person to

person but my personal favorite is how can one thing bother me one day, then not

bother me at all the next..lol...

That's a good HEPA question as for me, there are 4 aspects I need to ask the air

cleaner company (furnace filters too) when researching their particulate

filtration components:

1. The frame materials

Obviously the frame is the structure that holds the HEPA into a shape/form.

Sometimes the HEPA frame is cardboard, sometimes plastic and as in the case of

AirPura...a cylindrical metal cage. Plastic is a big no no for me. Cardboard can

be bothersome if it's been treated/ recycled/processed using chlorines or other

chemicals. Usually metal is the best but once again, did the company make/treat

the metal with any chemicals.

2. The glues used to hold the HEPA into the frame

As a general rule, I do much better with water based glues but in the case of an

air cleaner, really prefer no glue at all. AFM has a glue that some of the air

cleaner companies use. But in the case of this AirPura C600, there is no glue

as the prefilter does not have a frame, the middle filters are buried in the

carbon canister and the post filter is a HEPA like material wrapped around a

metal cylinder cage and held on with metal staples.

3. The HEPA material itself

Basically HEPA is fiberglass threads woven together and has such incredible

filtering efficiency down to the 0.3 micrometers. HEPA like materials do not

filter down that small so there's a trade off with it. So in the case of my

AirPura machines, their HEPA like materials will not filter as efficiently as

true HEPA. For me, that's a trade off I can live with but in the case of someone

with severe particulate allergies, HEPA like may not provide enough small micron

filtration. My allergy shots have significantly helped so particulate filtration

is something I can relax on a little.

4. Is the HEPA treated with anything

I was shocked to find out that some air cleaner companies purchase HEPA treated

with antimicrobials or other agents. So it's another question I need to ask.

So to answer your question, finally years ago I got sample kits from several air

cleaner companies which included treated and untreated HEPA along with all the

other components such as frame, materials, glues, carbon, etc. Just the chunk

of true untreated HEPA for whatever reason, is bothersome for me. I did what Dr

taught me which is to sleep with that object and see how I feel the next

day and boy oh boy, was as sick as a dog. Then sleeping with the untreated HEPA

like material and I was fine. Thus the conclusion I draw is that for some

reason, I have a problem with HEPA. Therefore if I found a quality air cleaner

without it, maybe I would stand a chance of finally having an air cleaner that I

can tolerate.

One of the ways in which I can also measure particulate efficiency is based on

the frequency with which I have to dust my house. Although not true HEPA, these

AirPura's are definitely effective as I can go longer peiods between dusting.

Not very scientific but meaningful to me.

Kathy

>

> Thank you Kathy for your experience with the air purifiers.  I know we are

all different but it is a hudge help in selecting them.  Why do hepa filters

bother you ? I had IQ and I did well with it with another air purifier to

collect the potassium alumina from it. So I had a combo too. Felt that worked

best for me. That was then.>

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

[Guest guest]

Kathy, Do you have any financial tie to this product or to the seller? We don't

allow selling of products or of dealers on this site. If you have no tie to

this product besides that you personally use it, that is okay.

Personally I own three Austin Air cleaners and love them but I know of people

who have used IQ also and consider them the best. Dr Rae recommends or used to

recommend Austin Air. They have two different models for MCS as does IQ cleaner

also. I'm not familiar w the C600.

> >

> > Hi Kathy,

> >  

> > You sure covered everything but the price of the C600.  Would you mind

sharing that with us?  (I went into the site but did not see a price)

> >  

> > ...Corky

>

[Guest guest]

Oh gosh Barb-

 

Good point. Like all the other health related webgroups that I belong to, am so

glad this groups also has a no selling policy.  

 

I should have prequalified that I have no associations with any companies nor

any financial interests in any of them.  And besides even if I wanted, am too

broke buying air cleaners/tons of supplements to do so anyway..lol...  

 

Am simply so psyched that I have finally found an air cleaner that is not only

effective, but I can tolerate. It's a really big deal.  Living with MCS is such

a challenge that when I find something that works, I will for sure post it to

potentially help others. I have been sick for a long time and have been

fortunate to have some incredible people walking this journey with me and will

always make myself available to do the same for others.

 

Thanks for bringing this up for clarification.

 

Kathy

------------------------------------------------------------

Re: AirCleanerUpdate

Kathy, Do you have any financial tie to this product or to the seller? We don't

allow selling of products or of dealers on this site. If you have no tie to this

product besides that you personally use it, that is okay.

Personally I own three Austin Air cleaners and love them but I know of people

who have used IQ also and consider them the best. Dr Rae recommends or used to

recommend Austin Air. They have two different models for MCS as does IQ cleaner

also. I'm not familiar w the C600. 

[Guest guest]

Thanks Kathy for sharing information.

>

> Oh gosh Barb-

>  

> Good point. Like all the other health related webgroups that I belong to, am

so glad this groups also has a no selling policy.  

>  

> I should have prequalified that I have no associations with any companies nor

any financial interests in any of them.  And besides even if I wanted, am too

broke buying air cleaners/tons of supplements to do so anyway..lol...  

>  

> Am simply so psyched that I have finally found an air cleaner that is not only

effective, but I can tolerate. It's a really big deal. 

[Guest guest]

Kathy Thank you for this info. I just checked out there website and I really

like what I see. Well built. I wonder how well the UV light works in these

filters????

KC

>

> Oh gosh Barb-

>  

> Good point. Like all the other health related webgroups that I belong to, am

so glad this groups also has a no selling policy.  

>  

> I should have prequalified that I have no associations with any companies nor

any financial interests in any of them.  And besides even if I wanted, am too

broke buying air cleaners/tons of supplements to do so anyway..lol...  

>  

> Am simply so psyched that I have finally found an air cleaner that is not only

effective, but I can tolerate. It's a really big deal.  Living with MCS is such

a challenge that when I find something that works, I will for sure post it to

potentially help others. I have been sick for a long time and have been

fortunate to have some incredible people walking this journey with me and will

always make myself available to do the same for others.

>  

> Thanks for bringing this up for clarification.

>  

> Kathy

> ------------------------------------------------------------

> Re: AirCleanerUpdate

> Kathy, Do you have any financial tie to this product or to the seller? We

don't allow selling of products or of dealers on this site. If you have no tie

to this product besides that you personally use it, that is okay.

> Personally I own three Austin Air cleaners and love them but I know of people

who have used IQ also and consider them the best. Dr Rae recommends or used to

recommend Austin Air. They have two different models for MCS as does IQ cleaner

also. I'm not familiar w the C600. 

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

may I ask which was the company ?

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

________________________________

From: baahstun <baahstun@...>

Sent: Tue, January 25, 2011 4:45:46 PM

Subject: [] Re: AirCleanerUpdate

Hi Mayleen-

The APSuperstore is one of the many companies I researched and was second best

to the distributor I eventually found.

APS does have a better than some return policy...30 days without restocking fee.

BUT the customer is responsible to pay for the return shipping which ranges

around $25.00-$40.00 depending upon where the customer lives. AND unless

something has changed, they also deduct the original outgoing shipping upon

receipt of the returned machine:

http://www.air-purifiers-superstore.com/contact_us.html

Typical with many companies selling air cleaners is 15-25% restocking plus

shipping both ways. That's why this distributor I found is such an incredible

find.

Kathy

[Guest guest]

Hi Kathy, (sorry if I called you differently)

Thanks once again for that great explanation and taking the time to do so. I

know I would need the HEPA so it is good to have more info. I am not the same

MCS'er now as when I had the air purifier's. And like you I react to paper with

chlorine, now paper period. I am seeing they are adding Fabreeze to filters of

all kinds. Amazing. It is very helpful to have more info when you are trying to

find one of these. Personal experiences help even if we are all different and

what works for one does not work for the other.

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

[Guest guest]

I cant handle ink Like newspaper

In a message dated 1/26/2011 12:04:26 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

dragonflymcs@... writes:

Hi Kathy, (sorry if I called you differently)

Thanks once again for that great explanation and taking the time to do so.

I

know I would need the HEPA so it is good to have more info. I am not the

same

MCS'er now as when I had the air purifier's. And like you I react to paper

with

chlorine, now paper period. I am seeing they are adding Fabreeze to

filters of

all kinds. Amazing. It is very helpful to have more info when you are

trying to

find one of these. Personal experiences help even if we are all different

and

what works for one does not work for the other.

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

[Guest guest]

Kathy,

Do you have any information about how many air exchanges per

hour the C600 is rated? Does it have a Clean Air Delivery Rate

(CADR)? I've looked on their Web site but can find it. Perhaps it

is in the instruction manual or somewhere else.

Those two parameters are the key to determining which model

for which room size and for comparing its effectiveness with

others in the same price range.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> >

> > Hi Kathy,

> > Â

> > You sure covered everything but the price of the C600. Would you mind

sharing that with us? (I went into the site but did not see a price)

> > Â

> > ...Corky

>

----------

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[Guest guest]

Carl I found this :

T600

http://www.allergytech.com/airpura_t600.htm

C600

http://www.allergytech.com/airpura_c600.htm

What does it mean as far as capability goes ?

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

________________________________

From: Carl E. Grimes <grimes@...>

Sent: Wed, January 26, 2011 12:45:11 PM

Subject: Re: [] Re: AirCleanerUpdate

Kathy,

Do you have any information about how many air exchanges per

hour the C600 is rated? Does it have a Clean Air Delivery Rate

(CADR)? I've looked on their Web site but can find it. Perhaps it

is in the instruction manual or somewhere else.

Those two parameters are the key to determining which model

for which room size and for comparing its effectiveness with

others in the same price range.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

[Guest guest]

Hi KC-

I know...great question. I personally find the volume/quality of science behind

uv germicidal lamps to compelling but in spite of that, the human side of me

kicks in wondering if a little bitty lamp can really do so much...lol...

But more concerning to me because of my extent/degree of sensitivities is the

ozone bi-product produced by the uv lamps. I am so sensitive that everything

must be considered.

It's hard to dispute that there must be something to UV germicidal techonology

because why would healthcare, computers, aerospace, cleanrooms, etc. use it.

However from what I understand, the lamps allowed for use in items available to

the general public such as sterilization devices, air cleaners, etc are a much

less powerful bulb technology than those being used in industry. So wonder if

that means that the " good news " is less powerful bulb = less ozone output. Or

the " bad news " is less powerful bulb = is it really effective. Hmmm.

With a suddenly toxic home on my hands last fall due to the window install, my

need was so great that I had to find some type of effective air filtration

really quickly. My chemical induced dementia was so escalated that I just

needed to keep it very simple and find a machine that would address chemical

erradication. My goal was to find a machine without HEPA that offered the two

effective chemical carbon options...plain coconut shell and also the impregnated

versions with potass alumina +/or potass permanganate. But obviously during all

the calls w/various maufacturers, their uv technology was discussed. However I

was so under the gun to get something in my home that I eliminated the uv from

the equation for not only the additional cost reasons but also keeping my

machine comparision as uncomplicated as possible. It would have been just one

more thing for me to figure out if I was reacting to.

So last fall when we we trying various erridication methods in my house, we

tried a bunch of stuff including commercial UV machines. All I can say is that

there was no change in the measured voc levels in my home. So we then brought

in numerous machines and strategically placed them all around the house with the

same result. We then played with the various machine controls only to receive

the same result. A meaningful exercise...I don't know. The type of technology

we were using has more of an established track record when directly attached to

a furnance heating/cooling system and in my case, we were using their free

standing machines. Let me also note that I was not staying here when all our

erridication attempts were taking place...I got the heck outta here.

The general idea w/uv is that it kills off microorganisms that the

particulate/carbon filtration are not geared to address. I do know that all the

air cleaner and furnace uv manufacturers recommend a regular cleaning of the

bulbs, important to remove dust and other particulate buildup on the bulbs which

may reduce lamp effectiveness. I also remember that the uv output varied

between the different manufacturers and their various models.

One thing that I loved about the IQ MultiGas machine I tried is their design.

Their motor is located right in the middle of the machine, which I think that

design concept is complete genius. The idea is that gas filters located post

motor will then capture any offgassing from the motor itself, as well as the

rest of the machine. In considering a uv machine, perhaps someone concerned with

the ozone output might ask about the placement of the bulbs in relation to some

type of post filtration to potentially capture/erridicate the uv lamp ozone

bi-product. It would be interesting to see how the various manufacturers using

uv technology respond to that question.

One of the downsides to my chemical poisoning is the decline to my muscular

skeletal structure including my teeth. My dental surgeon strongly recommended a

high tech sonic type toothbrush. This model I bought has a special uv

sterilization compartment for the toothbrush heads themselves. My dentist has

this germ evalution machine thingee so just for the heck of it, I brought into

his office both my normal toothbrush as well as one of the Sonicare brushes that

I've been using/has been uv'ing for more than a month. We put the normal

toothbrush in the germ machine and it was just crawling with all sorts of little

ole germs. Yeck. Then we put the sonic brush head in the machine and there was

hardly any at all. Not very scientific and does this really mean

anything...well, for me personally, it says something.

Dr taught me well by imbedding one simple philosopy in my brian fogged

head...if a company makes a claim, make them back up that claim and prove it to

you. Due to my low energy reserves, that can be an exhausting process, if you

know what I mean. But in the case of an air cleaner purchase for me, it's sure

worth plowing though the fatigue/brain fog and getting as much accurate info as

possible. It's a big decision and a lot of money and wanted to be as informed

as possible.

I personally would appreciate you posting anything you find out about UV as if I

am able to keep this house, the next thing I need to address is some type of

effective furnace filtration. Sharing what you find out would be such a help.

Please note that I have no financial or vested interest in any person, place,

object or anything else mentioned in this posting.

Kathy

>

> Kathy Thank you for this info. I just checked out there website and I really

like what I see. Well built. I wonder how well the UV light works in these

filters????

>

> KC

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Mayleen-

It seems best that I refrain from posting such info to the group. Thus I will

try and send you an email but sometime doing it through webgroups doesn't work.

So if does not reach you, please feel free to send me an email.

Kathy

>

> may I ask which was the company ?

>

>

> God Bless !!

> dragonflymcs

> Mayleen

>

>

> ________________________________

> From: baahstun <baahstun@...>

>

> Sent: Tue, January 25, 2011 4:45:46 PM

> Subject: [] Re: AirCleanerUpdate

>

>

> Hi Mayleen-

>

> The APSuperstore is one of the many companies I researched and was second best

> to the distributor I eventually found.

>

> APS does have a better than some return policy...30 days without restocking

fee.

> BUT the customer is responsible to pay for the return shipping which ranges

> around $25.00-$40.00 depending upon where the customer lives. AND unless

> something has changed, they also deduct the original outgoing shipping upon

> receipt of the returned machine:

>

> http://www.air-purifiers-superstore.com/contact_us.html

>

> Typical with many companies selling air cleaners is 15-25% restocking plus

> shipping both ways. That's why this distributor I found is such an incredible

> find.

>

> Kathy

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you, Mayleen. That was what I was looking for.

Air exchanges per hour:

They correctly rate (according to the CFM) the C600 as 2 air

exchanges per hour in a 2000 sq foot room. And, therefore, 4 air

exchanges per hour in a 1000 sq foot room.

Most of us need 8-12 air exchanges per hour. Which means 8

per hour can be attained in a 500 sq foot room. This is with the

fan on high. If the fan is set lower, then the exchanges will be

reduced accordingly.

Clean Air Delivery Rate:

They do list the CADR but with asterisks which I don't know what

they mean. The ratings are very good! However, they are for the

more easily filtered particle types and sizes. They do not cite the

CADR for those typically below 5 microns or for those at 0.3

microns. The CADR is actually for all particles according to a

complex formula which includes these plus others.

This is probably reported this way because the filter is not a

HEPA filter, specified as 99.97% at 0.3 microns. This is a 95%

filter. They honestly state this and Kathy did also.

5% less doesn't sound like much but as previously posted, the

slight reduction from 99.97% to 99.00% can result in billions more

particles passing through the filter and not captured. 95%

removes even less.

However, as Kathy so eloquently stated, 95% effeciency was

sufficient for her.

My personal opinion is that the official HEPA efficiency

performance is rarely needed except in exceptional situations.

Especially since most HEPA purifiers don't perform anywhere

near the 99/97% at 0.3 microns of the filter itself. So why pay for

what isn't needed.

I apologize once again for the lack of certainty and definitive

performance. But that's the way it is. We are all left with seeking

information and subjecting equipment and services to our

personal trial-and-error methods to do the best we can with what

we can afford.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

Carl I found this :

T600

http://www.allergytech.com/airpura_t600.htm

C600

http://www.allergytech.com/airpura_c600.htm

What does it mean as far as capability goes ?

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

________________________________

From: Carl E. Grimes <grimes@...>

Sent: Wed, January 26, 2011 12:45:11 PM

Subject: Re: [] Re: AirCleanerUpdate

Kathy,

Do you have any information about how many air exchanges per

hour the C600 is rated? Does it have a Clean Air Delivery Rate

(CADR)? I've looked on their Web site but can find it. Perhaps it

is in the instruction manual or somewhere else.

Those two parameters are the key to determining which model

for which room size and for comparing its effectiveness with

others in the same price range.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

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[Guest guest]

Hi Carl-

Dontcha get frustrated with the lack of website posted detailed specs for such

technically diverse and costly machines? Yet must admit that on more than one

occasion, I've had manufacturers surprised at the extent of my technical

questions. Perhaps with such a purchase, most potential customers don't ask for

such info.

I am critical of both AirPura and AllerAir websites for either not providing

details specs or posting info/specs are not up to date. They both could really

take a lesson from the depth and quality of info that Austin has on their

website. Yet in the same token, I also give a tiny bit of leeway due to the

customization they allow with their machines but still, no excuse. To be

honest, most of my recent air cleaner research was a combo of pulling specs

listed on various distributor websites, then calling AirPura only to be told " oh

yes, we need to update our website " or " we need to add that to our website " . It

was that kinda thing.

There is a very well known, highly respected supplement distributor widely used

by PWC's who also sell a bunch of other environmentally related stuff including

air quality machines. Their hard copy marketing materials are fantastic and

gave me a good place to start. That in combo w/other distributors in both the

PWC circles as well as strictly air quality machine companies...that gave me a

nice breadth of specs to work with. Armed with that info, I then called the

various companies I was considering, including AirPura, to verify what info was

really was correct. Thus I have no written proof to verify the following, only

what's posted on the various distributor sites, hardcopy materials combined with

what AirPura verbally told me as follows:

Claimed info for the AirPura C600:

AFR: 560 cfm on high

CADR: 420 cfm on high

Coverage: Up to 2000 sq. ft. 2 air changes per hour.

1000 sq ft 4 air changes per hour.

Other things they take great pride in:

Separate electrical parts chamber.

ETL certified...sounds like a positive feature for those concerned with

electrical safety and EMF's.

Now that said, my experience so far:

-With the C600DLX impreg carbon model, there was a definite difference in the

air outflow compared to the regular C600 coco shell carbon machine. Holding my

hand up to the air output which is 360 degree mesh at the top of the machine,

there was less output on the DLX and sounded like the motor was " working

harder " . Perhaps harder to push the air through the impreg carbon media...don't

really know. Perhaps you have a take on this.

-At top speed, the C600 moves some serious air. Reminds me of my old AllerAir

5000 from years ago. I was very attracted to the AllerAir AirMedic but for a

variety of reasons including the smaller amount of claimed SF coverage,

eliminated that one for my house BUT am thinking about trying one as a portable

machine that I can take with me on medical trips when I have to stay overnight.

Sure wish I could tolerate the Austin or Aireox as they have such nice

portables.

-My total house is 2200sf. Many walls to content with. So considering walls and

separated spaces...I have a home that for portable air cleaner purposes, really

needs 5 cleaners. Thus in my brain fogged head, I think of it as 5 zones. My

greatest interest was how my chosen machine would effectively filtrate the

largest/most complex area in my home, which is this quirky layout of the

cathedral lroom, connecting 8ft ceiling droom, adjoining kitch with 1/4 exposed

and connected to the droom, the opposite hallway adjoined to the lroom an then

of course, the upstairs loft that the cathedral elevates to. I was dreading the

$ possibility that this space might require 2 cleaners. Now having the recent

experience with the IQ/Austin/AirPura machines, it is interesting to compare

their respective performances in this very challenging space. With both the IQ

and Austin, I had to run the machines on the highest setting to keep up with the

chemicals but then I would react to the expelling filtered air. But that made

complete sense for if I remember correctly, I think the Austin was somewhere

around 400cfm top speed and the IQ was something like 250cfm top speed, with

respective CADR's much less than that. So here we go again with the value for

me w/variable speed control motor and because of variable speed on this AirPura,

I continue to find that " sweet spot " which effectively filters the chemicals but

is still low enough speed that I am not reacting to the expelling particulate

and carbon filtered air. I roll the machine to various sides of the main lroom

but all in all, this one machine about 1/2 on the dial speed setting is

effectively keeping up with 8 offgassing windows and greatly reducing the voc's

migrating up into the loft. Don't get me wrong..at times I pass through the

lroom and smell/feel the chemicals so I increase the speed, leave the room, then

come back later and turn it down to that " sweet spot " . It takes about 8-10

minutes to totally clear this quirky space. What that really says is that I

need to consistently run it at a little higher speed but can't tolerate it when

I do. So I just keep doing this up and down with both the lroom and also the

machine in the broom and it's keeping my head above water for now. This machine

at top speed moves some serious air and can only imagine what it would do if I

could tolerate the top speed carbon filtered outflow. Might clear my entire

wierdo house...lol....

Probably more than you wanted to know but am so psyched, amazed, thrilled,

shocked, dismayed that I have FINALLY found an air cleaner. I have needed one

for a long time and it has been this scare with the window install that kicked

me in the butt to do the necessary footwork. Thus I am probably a little over

the top with my exuberance and for sure hope my experience helps someone else.

I would like to bounce something off on you Carl, and will do so in a seperate

post as it's on a totally different subject. Would appreciate your feedback, if

you feel so inclined.

Please note that I have no financial or vested interest in any person, place,

object or anything else mentioned in this posting.

Kathy

----------------------

In , " Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...> wrote: Kathy,Do

you have any information about how many air exchanges per hour the C600 is

rated? Does it have a Clean Air Delivery Rate

CADR)? I've looked on their Web site but can find it. Perhaps it

is in the instruction manual or somewhere else. Those two parameters are the

key to determining which model for which room size and for comparing its

effectiveness with others in the same price range.

Carl Grimes Healthy Habitats LLC

[Guest guest]

Hi -

 

As sparse as it is, here's the sad little C600 " owners manual " that's really

more about how to change the filters:

http://www.airpurifiersandfilters.com/images/userguide-c600.pdf

 

It's a real simple design.  Flip it over, remove bottom and what you see looking

into it is:

 

1.  Prefilter is a cushy poly or cotton located on outside. 

 

2.  Middle filter is the 3 " carbon canister(smaller depth on other models) with

micro filters buried inside the carbon canister itself

 

3.  Inner filter is the final hepa like post filter.  It is hepa like material

wrapped around a metal cyliner cage and held on w/metal staples. Replacement

involves buying new hepa like material, removing the staples, removing the old

filter material, wrapping the new materials on the metal cylinder, reattaching

the staples. 

 

With the replacement filters, I guess some type of large slippery sleeve is

included.  Sounds like it's necessary to place it against the outer prefilter to

allow smooth sliding of the carbon canister into the machine and not catch on

the outer prefilter material.  Suppose this sleeve can also be used to slide in

the inside final post filter although since this filter does have it's own

shape, it might not be necessary. 

 

With the extent of my chemical house problem, will be interesting to see how

long I really get out of the carbon canister. 

 

Kathy

--------------------------------------------------------------

They don't say how to change the filters. Do you have to turn it

upside down like the Austin Air (one major reason I didn't get that

brand besides the noise level)? I see that you can vacuum the

pre-filter, but what about the HEPA filter? You have to do a comparison with

other brands so far as the CADR goes.

My Rabbit Air reports low CADR, but the air is crystal clear in the

area it's in. There are no reviews on Amazon on this product, so it

must be brand new. Barth

[Guest guest]

Hi Carl-

Boy you really get it, you IAQ guy you..lol...

Ok so help me out here with something I've always wondered...so if an 8-12

exchange is ideal, the can one accomplish that by placing 2 machines claimed at

4 exchanges each in the same space? Or does the law of physics and air movement

not work that way when it comes this issue?

Or I have also wondered if one has a free standing 4 exchange machine, is there

something that can be done via a forced air furnace that could increase it

closer to that ideal 8-12 exchange?

Hope I am making sense cause not sure how to put it in your lingo.

Kathy

>

> Thank you, Mayleen. That was what I was looking for.

>

> Air exchanges per hour:

>

> They correctly rate (according to the CFM) the C600 as 2 air

> exchanges per hour in a 2000 sq foot room. And, therefore, 4 air

> exchanges per hour in a 1000 sq foot room.

>

> Most of us need 8-12 air exchanges per hour. Which means 8

> per hour can be attained in a 500 sq foot room. This is with the

> fan on high. If the fan is set lower, then the exchanges will be

> reduced accordingly.

>

>

> Clean Air Delivery Rate:

>

> They do list the CADR but with asterisks which I don't know what

> they mean. The ratings are very good! However, they are for the

> more easily filtered particle types and sizes. They do not cite the

> CADR for those typically below 5 microns or for those at 0.3

> microns. The CADR is actually for all particles according to a

> complex formula which includes these plus others.

>

> This is probably reported this way because the filter is not a

> HEPA filter, specified as 99.97% at 0.3 microns. This is a 95%

> filter. They honestly state this and Kathy did also.

>

> 5% less doesn't sound like much but as previously posted, the

> slight reduction from 99.97% to 99.00% can result in billions more

> particles passing through the filter and not captured. 95%

> removes even less.

>

> However, as Kathy so eloquently stated, 95% effeciency was

> sufficient for her.

>

[Guest guest]

My pleasure....................... I want to understand also about the CADR

can you tell me about this one Carl, please... in my case I need medical hepa if

it is the best, is it ? At least later I will have an idea. But I find it

hard to find both medical grade HEPA and true Multi- gas filtration

..........................

http://www.allergytech.com/airpura_h600.htm

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

________________________________

From: Carl E. Grimes <grimes@...>

Sent: Wed, January 26, 2011 8:30:36 PM

Subject: Re: [] Re: AirCleanerUpdate

Thank you, Mayleen. That was what I was looking for.

Air exchanges per hour: