Re: AirCleanerUpdate

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Kathy. Flip it over was enough for me. It weighs 35 lbs. as

opposed to my 17 lb. unit that I easily move around, lay on its back

and easily clean/change the 3 filters. There were many considerations

in the decision to buy this one: weight, portability, effectiveness,

cost, thin footprint for my small home, HEPA filter, pre-filter,

carbon filter, quiet operation, automatic operation, power

consumption, CADR, no ozone, automatic shutoff when filters need to be

changed or cleaned.

Barth

www.presenting.net/sbs/sbs.html

SUBMIT YOUR DOCTOR: www.presenting.net/sbs/molddoctors.html

---

byc> Hi -

byc>  

byc> As sparse as it is, here's the sad little C600 " owners manual " that's

really more about how to change the filters:

byc> http://www.airpurifiersandfilters.com/images/userguide-c600.pdf

byc>  

byc> It's a real simple design.  Flip it over, remove bottom and what you see

looking into it is:

byc>  

byc> 1.  Prefilter is a cushy poly or cotton located on outside. 

byc>  

byc> 2.  Middle filter is the 3 " carbon canister(smaller depth on other

models) with micro filters buried inside the carbon canister itself

byc>  

[Guest guest]

Yes, two machines will be better than one, not only because they

move twice as much air together, but they will cover a larger

area.

Air purifiers are like a gate or a partially open window. Only some

of the air goes through it. The air closest to the device

recirculates multiple times. Air further away less frequently. Air on

the other side of the room almost never. By using two machines

on opposites sides of the room you have two locations of very

clean air and the amount of not so clean air is reduced.

This is why I prefer using several smaller machines to one great

big one.

Using a purifier with a forced air furnace will help circulate the

" cleaner " air throughout the house but it gets mixed in with the

massive amount of unfiltered air.

Your C600 is rated at just over 500 CFM (rounded for easy use).

Every minute 500 cubic feet of air goes through the filter. So how

many cubic feet of air is in a house?

A 1500 sq ft house will have 12,000 cubic feet of air (1500 x 8 ft

ceiling). At 500 Cubic Feet per Minute (CFM) it will take 24

minutes to clean all the air once. Assuming all goes through in a

smooth flow then 8 times through the filter takes just over 3

hours. Realistically, most recirculates so it will take 2-3 times

longer to get it all. So all the air gets cleaned 3-4 times a day

instead of 8-10 times an hour.

It's hard to argue with the math.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

Hi Carl-

Boy you really get it, you IAQ guy you..lol...

Ok so help me out here with something I've always wondered...so if an 8-12

exchange is ideal, the can one accomplish that by placing 2 machines claimed at

4 exchanges each in the same space? Or does the law of physics and air movement

not work that way when it comes this issue?

Or I have also wondered if one has a free standing 4 exchange machine, is there

something that can be done via a forced air furnace that could increase it

closer to that ideal 8-12 exchange?

Hope I am making sense cause not sure how to put it in your lingo.

Kathy

>

> Thank you, Mayleen. That was what I was looking for.

>

> Air exchanges per hour:

>

> They correctly rate (according to the CFM) the C600 as 2 air

> exchanges per hour in a 2000 sq foot room. And, therefore, 4 air

> exchanges per hour in a 1000 sq foot room.

>

> Most of us need 8-12 air exchanges per hour. Which means 8

> per hour can be attained in a 500 sq foot room. This is with the

> fan on high. If the fan is set lower, then the exchanges will be

> reduced accordingly.

>

>

> Clean Air Delivery Rate:

>

> They do list the CADR but with asterisks which I don't know what

> they mean. The ratings are very good! However, they are for the

> more easily filtered particle types and sizes. They do not cite the

> CADR for those typically below 5 microns or for those at 0.3

> microns. The CADR is actually for all particles according to a

> complex formula which includes these plus others.

>

> This is probably reported this way because the filter is not a

> HEPA filter, specified as 99.97% at 0.3 microns. This is a 95%

> filter. They honestly state this and Kathy did also.

>

> 5% less doesn't sound like much but as previously posted, the

> slight reduction from 99.97% to 99.00% can result in billions more

> particles passing through the filter and not captured. 95%

> removes even less.

>

> However, as Kathy so eloquently stated, 95% effeciency was

> sufficient for her.

>

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[Guest guest]

Mayleen,

First, the " medical grade HEPA. " This is advertising lingo. When

a company says it is " medical grade " and if they define what that

is the definition is " 99.97% at 0.3 microns. " That's what a real

HEPA filter is anyway. Anything else is not a HEPA.

But because so many manufactures use terms like " HEPA style "

or " HEPA-like " or " near HEPA " the public slowly acclimated to

seeing the word " HEPA " and don't pay attention to the actual

words.

Some even go further by putting the word " HEPA " in the product

name letting you think it actually performs like a HEPA. Sort of

like saying a cleaning product is " natural " or " green " without really

being natural or green. One description I found reads, " ... terms

such as " Industrial Grade " , " Medical Grade " , " Health Care Grade "

.... are not universally accepted and typically depend on a

particular supplier's definition. "

Which brings me to CADR. To cut through all the marketing hype

about " my filter is better than your filter, " and it " costs less, " some

IAQ scientists several years ago did some research and figured

out a way to actually measure how quickly and effectively a

purifier cleans particles from the air (not chemicals or odors, just

particles). They created a formula to which all manufacturers

could use to calculate actual performance.

That way if someone could measure a CADR rate of say 300 for

a cost of $100 for their product then they would have a better

deal than what everybody else who had a CADR of only 100 for

the same cost of $100. And it would be a legitimate comparison

independantly measured rather than created in an advertising

conference room to make their product sound better.

It is an ANSI accredited standard which means it is an industry

consensus rather than one company promoting its own products.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

My pleasure....................... I want to understand also about the CADR

can you tell me about this one Carl, please... in my case I need medical

hepa if

it is the best, is it ? At least later I will have an idea. But I find it

hard to find both medical grade HEPA and true Multi- gas filtration

..........................

http://www.allergytech.com/airpura_h600.htm

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

________________________________

From: Carl E. Grimes <grimes@...>

Sent: Wed, January 26, 2011 8:30:36 PM

Subject: Re: [] Re: AirCleanerUpdate

Thank you, Mayleen. That was what I was looking for.

Air exchanges per hour:

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[Guest guest]

Please do send it privately.

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

________________________________

From: baahstun <baahstun@...>

Sent: Wed, January 26, 2011 6:44:00 PM

Subject: [] Re: AirCleanerUpdate

Hi Mayleen-

It seems best that I refrain from posting such info to the group. Thus I will

try and send you an email but sometime doing it through webgroups doesn't work.

So if does not reach you, please feel free to send me an email.

Kathy

>

> may I ask which was the company ?

>

________________________________

> From: baahstun <baahstun@...>

>

> Sent: Tue, January 25, 2011 4:45:46 PM

> Subject: [] Re: AirCleanerUpdate

> Hi Mayleen-

>

> The APSuperstore is one of the many companies I researched and was second best

> to the distributor I eventually found.

>

> APS does

[Guest guest]

Hi Corky-

 

I didn't say but am happy to do so, if allowed by the group moderator.  

 

The summer of 1999 I was unknowingly being slowly poisoned.  Within 6 months,

the career went out the window and I was slowly noticing that I was having

increasing problems with the world and environment around me.  So it's been 10

years now that I have been living with female stuff, CFIDS, MCS, 4 confirmed

viruses, 6 confirmed autoimmune disease and my out of state doc is still

convinced I have Lyme yet it continues to allude us in spite of all the

testing.   

 

So literally within 6 months at the young age of 42, I went from an active well

rounded life with a high powered career to a person struggling with health

issues and trying to survive on disability every month.  And of course that

was only after a 2 year battle to win disability.  Blah Blah Blah.  Sorta the

same story as many others. 

 

Yet I am SO fortunate that it didn't take years of bouncing around from doctor

to doctor with the old " it's all in your head " scenario.  I was sooo blessed

that through the Endometriosis Assn, found out about Dr Sherry .  Off to

see her thinking I was going to discuss some allergy shots and walked outta

there with a laundry list of things wrong with me...lol...anyone who knows her,

knows exactly what I mean.  But I owe her so much as she was the one who dx me

w/MCS, confronted my horrific diet, educated me about Candida and drilled it

into my head the since the gut houses the majority of the immune system, I'd

better get/keep my gut in shape or I will never stand a chance of getting

well.  And thus began this most recent leg of my life journey.

 

I am a DES Daughter and a member of DES Action thus a member of their webgroup. 

A fellow member told me about a fantastic webgroup called

.  Not sure if this link will work as I am signed in as a

member:

/

My life is all up to me so thus began my quest to educate myself, not knowing

what an incredible webgroup I was becoming part of.  At that time and I assume

it still is...a group of CFIDS/FM folks truly looking for solutions and what I

learned from them is simply amazing.  Ken Lassen started that group, many

incredible scientists and doctors from all over the world took their time to

continually share with the group.  This also includes the well known/respected

Rich Van Koynenburg, who also pops up on the CF Alliance Group from time to

time.  He is a so devoted to those of us with CFS and CFIDS and is tireless with

sharing his expertise and protocols.  He is an amazing, giving man and

gifted scientist and a huge contributor to the CFS/CFIDS community.  I was super

active in the group learning and doing trials with all sorts of protocols as I

started to find out of state practitioners who could help take me in a more

scientific

direction that what Dr does.  Also, I live in a very restricted state

where we can't get a lot of testing/treatments done here so out of state is the

way a lot of us here must go.  So found a fabulous out of state doc, starting

getting tests done and starting building of list of now confirmed viruses,

autoimmune disorders and of course, the obvious CFIDS and MCS.  That lead me to

trying a bunch of various immune focused protocols involving everything from the

basic supplements to some very high tech stuff.  And of course, all very

expensive and most not covered by insurance..lol...

 

Then the time came when I needed to address my metals/chelation thus joined both

Jeff and Andy Cutler metals groups as well as the Autism Group, well know

for great sharing on various types of  chelation:

http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/metals

adult-metal-chelation/

/

 

And since Cutler's protocol involves so much sulfur, I then joined the Sulfur

Group too:

sulfurstories/?yguid=223071283

 

Then came some of the CFSFMExperimantal off-shoot groups that Ken Lassen formed,

so I joined them:

atsg/

http://www.me-cfsmethylation.com/

CFSProtocol/

AlfredblasiprotocolFMSCFS/

atsg/

CFS-Ampligen/

 

And of course, the CFS specific:

/

 

Also MCS specific:

MCS-CI-Heal-Archives/?yguid=223071283

mcssafeshelterusa/?yguid=223071283

 

I also belong to female related webgroups such as DES Action and others that I

would prefer not to post.

 

And for fun...I also belong to various webgroups supporting my

passion/collecting of my favorite childhood tv show called Lost in Space and all

the other shows that it's creator Irwin was involved in such a Time

Tunnel, Land of the Giants, etc.

 

About the only thing I haven't pursued yet is a Lyme group but why bother until

we confirm that I actually have it. One less dx to have, I say...lol....  I have

learned/made so many friends on the other groups who have lyme that I pretty

much know where to go such as LymeNet, Borrascano, etc.  

 

It sounds like it has consumed my life and to be honest for around 4 or

so years, it did.  I became my illness.  But as time has passed with many

treatments tried...that is no longer the case.  I maintain various group

memberships, receive daily digests and post from time to time.

 

But that all changed with the window install last July.  I was/am really freaked

that in spite of all the environmental precautions, it has resulted in

my now toxic house.  I honestly hope that I can somehow keep this house, that's

how serious this is.  Consults w/enviromental consultants, contacting the local

IAQ guy, getting folks in here to help  figure out my options...that I have

already done.  I already sold a house due to mold/natural gas and for sure, just

don't want to go through that again if at all possible.  Or perhaps the message

in this is that it is time for me to relocate to a better climate and this is

the only way to boot me out of my little safety zone. Time will tell if I

continue to do my footwork. 

 

My memberships with CIIN and HEAL are of great value but what I really wanted

and needed was to locate an interactive webgroup specifically discussing

positive solutions to addressing a toxic structure.  During these winter months

while we are closed up, I want to educate myself as much as possible so when

spring hits, perhaps I can step into action on things I can do with this house

that may be of help.   

 

So started the group search and tripped upon this wonderful group.  And

although the objective of this group focuses on mold, after joining and reading

what you all are discussing, I felt that perhaps this may be a positive and

proactive resource for what I am dealing with right now.  And not only for what

I might learn here but to also give back to others and be willing to step up to

the plate and contribute where applicable if it will help someone else.

 

That all said, I certainly hope that new credible groups members are truly

welcome here.  It's difficult when someone new suddenly pops onto the

group scene, particularly with bountiful exuberance...lol...  There is a

tendency for suspicion until that new member becomes either a true part of

the group or totally disappears, which is quite often the case.  Since we aren't

looking at each other eye to eye and face to face, I guess that's just a

normal webgroup dynamic.

 

Please note that I have no financial or vested interest in any person, place,

groups, object or anything else mentioned in this posting.

 

Take Care

Kathy

 --------------------------------------------------------------- 

Posted by: " Tug " tug_slug@...   tug_slug

Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:17 am (PST)

Baahstun, how long have you been suffering with MCS and what other forums did

you say you belonged to?

 

[Guest guest]

Thank you Carl,

That avoids paying more for a so called " Medical HEPA Filter " so the CADR is

the definitive to look for , good particle filtration is something I

would definitely need.

I did have a set-up before like the one you mentioned 2 machines on opposite

sides of the room. Both worked differently.

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

________________________________

From: Carl E. Grimes <grimes@...>

Sent: Thu, January 27, 2011 12:14:52 AM

Subject: Re: [] Re: AirCleanerUpdate

Mayleen,

First, the " medical grade HEPA. " This is advertising lingo. When

a company says it is " medical grade " and if they define what that

is the definition is " 99.97% at 0.3 microns. " That's what a real

HEPA filter is anyway. Anything else is not a HEPA.

But because so many manufactures use terms like " HEPA style "

or " HEPA-like " or " near HEPA " the public slowly acclimated to

seeing the word " HEPA " and don't pay attention to the actual

words.

Some even go further by putting the word " HEPA " in the product

name letting you think it actually performs like a HEPA. Sort of

like saying a cleaning product is " natural " or " green " without really

being natural or green. One description I found reads, " ... terms

such as " Industrial Grade " , " Medical Grade " , " Health Care Grade "

.... are not universally accepted and typically depend on a

particular supplier's definition. "

Which brings me to CADR. To cut through all the marketing hype

about " my filter is better than your filter, " and it " costs less, " some

IAQ scientists several years ago did some research and figured

out a way to actually measure how quickly and effectively a

purifier cleans particles from the air (not chemicals or odors, just

particles). They created a formula to which all manufacturers

could use to calculate actual performance.

That way if someone could measure a CADR rate of say 300 for

a cost of $100 for their product then they would have a better

deal than what everybody else who had a CADR of only 100 for

the same cost of $100. And it would be a legitimate comparison

independantly measured rather than created in an advertising

conference room to make their product sound better.

It is an ANSI accredited standard which means it is an industry

consensus rather than one company promoting its own products.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

[Guest guest]

Hi Carl-

I want to kick your math in the shins cause I know you/it are so correct..lol...

Ok so my question is since I can't tolerate an increase in the motor speed nor

buy multiple machines for each room, then is there something else that I can do

to increase the filtration footage in my respectives rooms?

Could I set up an oscillating fan on the other side of the room and blow the air

from the other side of the room toward the air cleaner thus increasing the

amount of filtration?

Or does it not work that way?

Now of course if I win the lottery and buy 50 machines for my toxic house, than

won't need to ask such a rediculous question..lol..

Kathy

Yes,

two machines will be better than one, not only because they move twice as much

air together, but they will cover a larger area. Air purifiers are like a gate

or a partially open window. Only some of the air goes through it. The air

closest to the device recirculates multiple times. Air further away less

frequently. Air on the other side of the room almost never. By using two

machines on opposites sides of the room you have two locations of very clean air

and the amount of not so clean air is reduced. This is why I prefer using

several smaller machines to one great big one.

It's hard to argue with the math.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

[Guest guest]

Hi Carl-

Are you aware of any quality credible independent air cleaner studies?

Also, can you recommend some resources where I can further educate myself on

PCO? The Berkley Labs study seems to indicate formaldehyde as a pootential

biproduct so want to do more reading on it.

Thanks

Kathy

> IAQ scientists several years ago did some research and figured

> out a way to actually measure how quickly and effectively a

> purifier cleans particles from the air (not chemicals or odors, >just

particles). They created a formula to which all manufacturers

> could use to calculate actual performance.

>

> It is an ANSI accredited standard which means it is an industry

> consensus rather than one company promoting its own products.

>

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

>

[Guest guest]

Most or all states have to do independent testing (very expensive for

the mftrs.) on what is sold in their state. You can try to Google it.

I know that CA has a listing of every approved air cleaner somewhere.

Barth

www.presenting.net/sbs/sbs.html

SUBMIT YOUR DOCTOR: www.presenting.net/sbs/molddoctors.html

---

b> Hi Carl-

b> Are you aware of any quality credible independent air cleaner studies?

b> Also, can you recommend some resources where I can further educate myself on

PCO? The Berkley Labs study seems to indicate formaldehyde as a pootential

biproduct so want to do more reading on it.

b> Thanks

b> Kathy

[Guest guest]

Amazing how many became ill in that 1999 time frame. Also around the same age in

many. Welcome Kathy. Some of us have been around for many years. Great people.

>

>

[Guest guest]

What about the Orick brand that you wee advertised on TV? Anyone have one

that they are happy with? Sue

Hi Carl-

Dontcha get frustrated with the lack of website posted detailed specs for

such technically diverse and costly machines? Yet must admit that on more

than one occasion, I've had manufacturers surprised at the extent of my

technical questions. Perhaps with such a purchase, most potential customers

don't ask for such info.

[Guest guest]

Sue,

It is an electrostatic cleaner. These typically have a CADR no

better then 50-60. You can spend about the same money and get

something with a CADR well over 100.

Does that mean it won't work or help us? No. It just means there

are others which will work better for the same price.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

What about the Orick brand that you wee advertised on TV? Anyone

have one

that they are happy with? Sue

Hi Carl-

Dontcha get frustrated with the lack of website posted detailed specs for

such technically diverse and costly machines? Yet must admit that on

more

than one occasion, I've had manufacturers surprised at the extent of my

technical questions. Perhaps with such a purchase, most potential

customers

don't ask for such info.