Re: Re: Closed up building--what should I check for?

[Guest guest]

I wish that all of you would quit thinking just molds. There are also dangerous

bacteria. Therefore, you may be responding to the bacteria by-products as well.

Mycobacterium and thermoactinomycetes also cause serious lung disease, such as

H.P. and sarcoidosis. I have a situation where Mycobacterium were cultured from

two children with chronic sinusitis and mastoid infections. The illness caused

by several species of Mycobacterium is referred to as nontuberculin

mycobacterium avium complex (MAC)and it is a systemic illness. If visible

stains on walls and wood frame are present, stay away from the situation as

as noted.

[] Re: Closed up building--what should I check for?

moisture damage and visible stains? Nuts to buy it. My NPO rented an old

building, gutting it, it had mold on the rafters, but they fixed the leaks and

put in new insulation and sheetrock. I lasted an hr in there before I nearly

croaked, ruined my clothes also, with for me a classic mold exposure/ reaction

>

> Experts: I'm looking at a beautifully restored house. It has sat on the

market since August, partly because it's a bad market and partly because it is

too small for a family.

>

[Guest guest]

My " etc. " was meant to cover molds plus. I haven't forgotten any of the lessons

learned here, but it's annoying to continually retype everything associated with

WDBs.

The walls were removed, the whole thing gutted. So no visible stains on them.

There is only the staining here and there on the rafters that I had in my old

house since most every house I've ever seen has leaked at one point. So I'm not

sure if that's mold. In fact, I misspoke in my first email. I assumed there were

leaks and mold damage, but looking back on the photos the design firm posted on

their web site, I don't see any real damage to the old roof, and the windows

were carefully boarded up by the neighborhood. It just looked bad because vines

were growing all over the stucco and some of the facia had rotted from not being

painted (now replaced). And because of those stains on the rafters.

Still sound like a " stay away " situation? I guess I'm more concerned with it

being shut up for some months.

From: Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. <toxicologist1@...>

Subject: Re: [] Re: Closed up building--what should I check for?

Date: Thursday, January 27, 2011, 6:52 PM

I wish that all of you would quit thinking just molds. There are also

dangerous bacteria. Therefore, you may be responding to the bacteria

by-products as well. Mycobacterium and thermoactinomycetes also cause serious

lung disease, such as H.P. and sarcoidosis. I have a situation where

Mycobacterium were cultured from two children with chronic sinusitis and mastoid

infections. The illness caused by several species of Mycobacterium is referred

to as nontuberculin mycobacterium avium complex (MAC)and it is a systemic

illness. If visible stains on walls and wood frame are present, stay away from

the situation as as noted.

[Guest guest]

Wow, good story, . I will see how I feel when I enter it.

From: carondeen <kdeanstudios@...>

Subject: [] Re: Closed up building--what should I check for?

Date: Thursday, January 27, 2011, 4:27 PM

moisture damage and visible stains? Nuts to buy it. My NPO rented an old

building, gutting it, it had mold on the rafters, but they fixed the leaks and

put in new insulation and sheetrock. I lasted an hr in there before I nearly

croaked, ruined my clothes also, with for me a classic mold exposure/ reaction

[Guest guest]

I suggest you use the term microbial growth. It is more encompassing than

molds, etc.

Re: [] Re: Closed up building--what should I check for?

My " etc. " was meant to cover molds plus. I haven't forgotten any of the

lessons learned here, but it's annoying to continually retype everything

associated with WDBs.

The walls were removed, the whole thing gutted. So no visible stains on them.

There is only the staining here and there on the rafters that I had in my old

house since most every house I've ever seen has leaked at one point. So I'm not

sure if that's mold. In fact, I misspoke in my first email. I assumed there were

leaks and mold damage, but looking back on the photos the design firm posted on

their web site, I don't see any real damage to the old roof, and the windows

were carefully boarded up by the neighborhood. It just looked bad because vines

were growing all over the stucco and some of the facia had rotted from not being

painted (now replaced). And because of those stains on the rafters.

Still sound like a " stay away " situation? I guess I'm more concerned with it

being shut up for some months.

[Guest guest]

Was the stucco synthetic? If so you need an expert to evaluate

because moisture get trapped between the barriers and can rot

the frame of the house.

Non-synthetic stucco is a different matter. However, vines

growing on it may be a clue about moisture.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

My " etc. " was meant to cover molds plus. I haven't forgotten any of the

lessons learned here, but it's annoying to continually retype everything

associated with WDBs.

The walls were removed, the whole thing gutted. So no visible stains on

them. There is only the staining here and there on the rafters that I had

in my old house since most every house I've ever seen has leaked at one

point. So I'm not sure if that's mold. In fact, I misspoke in my first email.

I assumed there were leaks and mold damage, but looking back on the

photos the design firm posted on their web site, I don't see any real

damage to the old roof, and the windows were carefully boarded up by

the neighborhood. It just looked bad because vines were growing all over

the stucco and some of the facia had rotted from not being painted (now

replaced). And because of those stains on the rafters.

Still sound like a " stay away " situation? I guess I'm more concerned with

it being shut up for some months.

--- On Thu, 1/27/11, Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. <toxicologist1@...>

wrote:

From: Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. <toxicologist1@...>

Subject: Re: [] Re: Closed up building--what should I check

for?

Date: Thursday, January 27, 2011, 6:52 PM

I wish that all of you would quit thinking just molds. There are also

dangerous bacteria. Therefore, you may be responding to the bacteria

by-products as well. Mycobacterium and thermoactinomycetes also

cause serious lung disease, such as H.P. and sarcoidosis. I have a

situation where Mycobacterium were cultured from two children with

chronic sinusitis and mastoid infections. The illness caused by several

species of Mycobacterium is referred to as nontuberculin mycobacterium

avium complex (MAC)and it is a systemic illness. If visible stains on

walls and wood frame are present, stay away from the situation as

as noted.

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[Guest guest]

What you need to realize we always have newcomers. They need to be educated as

the composition of WDB.

[] Re: Closed up building--what should I check for?

I have to agree, we are constantly bombarded about terms to use.

the mold task force uses the term mold, but we use it and we are jumped on.

we all are aware of the complexity of WDB's.

none of our damages are caused by one specific thing but a combination of

everthing involved.

the damage these exposures cause and what damages your left with and trying to

deal with and find answers for cures, and prevent more damages,house wise,body

wise and so on, and what your tested for and not tested for , all play a role.

people are not going to post about bacterias if they haven't had them found in

their homes or found in their body.

that in no way means we are ignorant to the role they may play.

and there are situations where bacteria may not be a big factor.

we are ill, we dont always function the best, theres lots of times it takes

alot of effort to just reply to a post, let alone force our brains and spend

hours trying to make sure we spell correctly or use all the proper terms. heck,

I can read stuff and understand it

very well but not be able to convay to another what it says.

I wouyld hope that the support of the group is understanding of the difficults

we might suffer.

maybe I somehow got into a different group and didn't know it, this use to be

a group for support, and it should be support regardless of how well you

function, how proper the terms are that you use,

and it is very aggervateing because you could use about ten different terms to

cover many illnesses that might be involved and

every doctor wants his terms used.

maybe some one can just tell me if this group has turned into something other

than a support group.

I've been around along time, I've done alot of research that has ended up on a

few peoples web sites, one that I regret basiclly because she was emailing me

and asking for anything else I had and than I was one of the first to be asked

to join a certain org. but than became listed as a supporter and thats about all

I'm going to say on that, she knows who she is. orther that have put in alot of

years and effort that I know were treated much the same.

but also, I dont care to be told I need to go read something when I'm the one

that found,studied, and knew enough about what I was reading to post it, like

the danger zone and macrophages on the dark side.

I really dont care that someone than puts these things on their web sites,

it's all about getting knowledge out there to the public, but remember where it

came from and so a little respect.

on the note of respect, I denfinitly fell respect,understanding and support go

hand and hand.

>

> My " etc. " was meant to cover molds plus. I haven't forgotten any of the

lessons learned here, but it's annoying to continually retype everything

associated with WDBs.

>

> The walls were removed, the whole thing gutted. So no visible stains on

them. There is only the staining here and there on the rafters that I had in my

old house since most every house I've ever seen has leaked at one point. So I'm

not sure if that's mold. In fact, I misspoke in my first email. I assumed there

were leaks and mold damage, but looking back on the photos the design firm

posted on their web site, I don't see any real damage to the old roof, and the

windows were carefully boarded up by the neighborhood. It just looked bad

because vines were growing all over the stucco and some of the facia had rotted

from not being painted (now replaced). And because of those stains on the

rafters.

>

> Still sound like a " stay away " situation? I guess I'm more concerned with it

being shut up for some months.

>

[Guest guest]

Carl, it is old stucco--original stucco. It's a 1920s home. Most in our

neighborhoods are in that era and have stucco. The vines are a nuisance vine we

have in the area--they grow on most homes, wood or stucco, if we aren't vigilant

about them. The vines have been removed. And the stucco repainted. Are you

saying that vines only grow on siding that have moisture issues?

From: Carl E. Grimes <grimes@...>

Subject: Re: [] Re: Closed up building--what should I check for?

Date: Thursday, January 27, 2011, 11:40 PM

 

Was the stucco synthetic? If so you need an expert to evaluate

because moisture get trapped between the barriers and can rot

the frame of the house.

Non-synthetic stucco is a different matter. However, vines

growing on it may be a clue about moisture.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

My " etc. " was meant to cover molds plus. I haven't forgotten any of the

lessons learned here, but it's annoying to continually retype everything

associated with WDBs.

The walls were removed, the whole thing gutted. So no visible stains on

them. There is only the staining here and there on the rafters that I had

in my old house since most every house I've ever seen has leaked at one

point. So I'm not sure if that's mold. In fact, I misspoke in my first email.

I assumed there were leaks and mold damage, but looking back on the

photos the design firm posted on their web site, I don't see any real

damage to the old roof, and the windows were carefully boarded up by

the neighborhood. It just looked bad because vines were growing all over

the stucco and some of the facia had rotted from not being painted (now

replaced). And because of those stains on the rafters.

Still sound like a " stay away " situation? I guess I'm more concerned with

it being shut up for some months.

--- On Thu, 1/27/11, Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. <toxicologist1@...>

wrote:

From: Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. <toxicologist1@...>

Subject: Re: [] Re: Closed up building--what should I check

for?

Date: Thursday, January 27, 2011, 6:52 PM

I wish that all of you would quit thinking just molds. There are also

dangerous bacteria. Therefore, you may be responding to the bacteria

by-products as well. Mycobacterium and thermoactinomycetes also

cause serious lung disease, such as H.P. and sarcoidosis. I have a

situation where Mycobacterium were cultured from two children with

chronic sinusitis and mastoid infections. The illness caused by several

species of Mycobacterium is referred to as nontuberculin mycobacterium

avium complex (MAC)and it is a systemic illness. If visible stains on

walls and wood frame are present, stay away from the situation as

as noted.

----------

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[Guest guest]

I've amply demonstrated that I understand that bacteria is a problem. When I get

to my book, I'll seek to educate others (and learn more about it myself). Right

now, I'm concerned with my own set of problems. But I can always be swayed with

a " please " --we get more flies with honey, don't we? And on that note, I will say

thank you again, Dr. T. Any advice about the house itself, I'd appreciate.

For instance, I now do not have any evidence that water leaked. I saw old photos

of the house and the old roof was fine--they did replace it, though. They

replaced everything--walls, windows, AC, furnace, roof, etc. The basement and

foundation are the same, as is the original (not EIFS) stucco on the exterior.

I have emailed the design firm to find out if there was any mold found when the

house was gutted and if what I saw in the photos on the rafters is indeed

staining from past leaks. I am going to look at the attic and everything

else--the basement walls, and the joists and subflooring while I " m in the

basement and can see them from below--when I see the house Saturday.

What I would *really* like to understand is the effects of a house being closed

up since August. What temp and humidity it should have been set at in order not

to have issues brewing in those months. 

Also, what I'd like to understand is why a person should stay away from a house

with indications of staining on the rafters if the roof (shingles) has been

replaced and no leaks are currently occurring. It's impossible to find a vintage

(1920s, 1930s, even 1940s) house that hasn't had a leak at some point. My old

house, a 1940s house, had evidence of past leaking, but that was in the past--no

leaking while I was in the home--and I was healthy in that home. (There was not

excessive moisture and the basement was dry.) I mean, does staining always

equate to mold growth?* Is testing really contraindicated in that

situation--can't staining just sometimes be staining, and only a sample would

show if it was fungal?

 

*I'm not asking about bacteria because I am not severely allergic to bacteria

and I have no means of judging whether there is or isn't bacteria in the home

since I can't see it. I understand *how* it grows in home only incompletely;

until I have some reasonable level of knowledge about it I am not going to ask

questions (and risk derision). I do believe that there is bacteria in my current

home, as there are active leaks in the basement. 

From: Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. <toxicologist1@...>

Subject: Re: [] Re: Closed up building--what should I check for?

Date: Thursday, January 27, 2011, 9:29 PM

I suggest you use the term microbial growth. It is more encompassing than

molds, etc.

[Guest guest]

With a home of that age there is also a possibility of lead based paint: !978

and older

http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/consumer/09538.html

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

________________________________

From: Advocate Now <advocate_now@...>

Sent: Thu, January 27, 2011 9:33:53 PM

Subject: Re: [] Re: Closed up building--what should I check for?

Carl, it is old stucco--original stucco. It's a 1920s home. Most in our

neighborhoods are in that era and have stucco. The vines are a nuisance vine we

[Guest guest]

With out inspecting the home and performing some basic tests I cannot answer

your question. Carl might, but I am not in the position to do so.

Re: [] Re: Closed up building--what should I check for?

I've amply demonstrated that I understand that bacteria is a problem. When I

get to my book, I'll seek to educate others (and learn more about it myself).

Right now, I'm concerned with my own set of problems. But I can always be swayed

with a " please " --we get more flies with honey, don't we? And on that note, I

will say thank you again, Dr. T. Any advice about the house itself, I'd

appreciate.

snipped..

[Guest guest]

The walls and ceilings were removed, but yes, generally that's very true!

On Jan 27, 2011, at 9:03 PM, dragonflymcs <dragonflymcs@...> wrote:

With a home of that age there is also a possibility of lead based paint: !978

and older

http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/consumer/09538.html

[Guest guest]

I completely understand. Thank you for responding, nonetheless.

On Jan 27, 2011, at 9:53 PM, " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

wrote:

With out inspecting the home and performing some basic tests I cannot answer

your question. Carl might, but I am not in the position to do so.

[Guest guest]

I'm glad I've learned about microbial growth because I think it is an issue for

me now. I don't think it has been so much before but lately the house I am in I

can smell something besides mold and I have a lot of congestion in my chest and

some respiratory distress and harder to breath and sinuses getting more and more

congested. I also have swelling and infection in some teeth and would not be

surprised if it were bacterial rather than fungal.

anita

---From: Healthier4all

?

Dr. Thrasher you are so correct. Haven't posted for a while; however have

experienced with many including myself the problem is more than just mold...

Woman exposed to mold...Had chronic sinusitis with nose bleeds for months.

Assumed fungal...

On a Saturday had throbbing molar pain, left side of face swelled. Sunday

she went to urgent care for the infected tooth. Was given augmentin for the

infection and bactroban nasal ointment for the chronic sinusitis. In 3 day

most of her symptoms cleared. Her chronic sinusitis was bacterial not

fungal. No cultures were taken; just the RX bactroban.

Thanks for your continued patience in stressing microbials rather than just

mold.

Rosie

[Guest guest]

Thank you, If I remember correctly I test positive for non tuberculosis or such,

high mast cells

________________________________

From: " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

Sent: Sat, January 29, 2011 2:16:41 PM

Subject: [] Re: Closed up building--what should I check for?

Here a couple of papers on Mycobacterium that need to be in your library. WHO

noted in its review the presence in WDB and potential danger from these

organisms.

http://ajrccm.atsjournals.org/cgi/reprint/175/4/367

http://ajrccm.atsjournals.org/cgi/reprint/172/2/250

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Off: 916-745-4703

Cell: 575-937-1150

L. Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

916-745-4703 - Off

775-309-3994 - Cell

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[Guest guest]

Your doctor will tell you that you had a false positive. The reaction means you

have been exposed to Mycobacterium other that M. tuberculous. The next question

to answer do you have an infection? There are two types of skin reaction:

immediate (IgE allergy) or delayed (Types II and IV), which is delayed and

prolonged.

Re: [] Re: Closed up building--what should I check for?

Thank you, If I remember correctly I test positive for non tuberculosis or

such,

high mast cells

[Guest guest]

Thank you Dr Thrasher, it wasn't a skin prick but blood work that showed

these finding.

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

________________________________

From: " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

Sent: Sun, January 30, 2011 1:31:13 PM

Subject: Re: [] Re: Closed up building--what should I check for?

Your doctor will tell you that you had a false positive. The reaction means you

have been exposed to Mycobacterium other that M. tuberculous. The next question

to answer do you have an infection? There are two types of skin reaction:

immediate (IgE allergy) or delayed (Types II and IV), which is delayed and

prolonged.