Re: converting forced air to radiant heat (steam/convectors)

[Guest guest]

Whare are you--what city/state? Can you get more info? Is it on the web

someplace? Is there a name for it? Is there a site that shows plans/gives

step-by step directions?

Ella, who wants to look into this NOW!

>

> Thought this might be of interest to someone--a guy from a local plumbing and

heating co told be about an amazing alternative for converting a house with

forced air to radiant heat using mini-tube steam and convectors.

>

> Bottom line--it would still cost 12K to convert our 3BR house, so not cheap by

any means and I don't know when/if we'll be able to do it. But converting to

radiators could cost 3-4x that and just knowing about this alternative gives me

hope!

>

> A new gas boiler would supply steam through small diameter, flexible copper

tubing to convectors in each room. The convectors have an enamel metal cover

and a grill to let warmed air flow into the room (no fan, just natural

convection). Under the cover are metal fins that the steam runs through that

would need to be vacuumed regularly for those with allergies.

>

> One reason it's so much cheaper than radiators to install in an existing home

is that the flexible copper tubing can be fished through walls with minimal

drilling/small holes, while installing regular pipes requires taking down much

larger sections of the wall.

>

> The guy said this was an innovation in steam heat that came about right when

forced air took over the market. He said if this had been available 5 years

before forced air it might be the dominant type of heat today because it's

efficient, clean and cheaper to install and operate than other forms of radiant

heat.

>

> It's not a system he normally sells. He does maintenance on a few systems

like it and learned about it that way. He proposed it as a solution to our

problem of how to convert from forced air to some form of radiant heat in an

existing home.

>

> Amy

>

[Guest guest]

Amy, is your reason to convert mainly economical?

>

> Thought this might be of interest to someone--a guy from a local plumbing and

heating co told be about an amazing alternative for converting a house with

forced air to radiant heat using mini-tube steam and convectors.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Installation of these systems are extremely critical to prevent

leaks which can lead to mold growth and structural damage.

The plastic tubes have to be attached to each other with metal

connectors. If not precisely installed they can eventually leak. So

be sure to check out this aspect before buying and installing.

Everything - that means everything - has it's good points and it's

not so good points. An informed decision will be based on finding

out what both are and then choosing what will work best for your

situation.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

Whare are you--what city/state? Can you get more info? Is it on the web

someplace? Is there a name for it? Is there a site that shows plans/gives

step-by step directions?

Ella, who wants to look into this NOW!

>

> Thought this might be of interest to someone--a guy from a local plumbing and

heating co told be about an amazing alternative for converting a house with

forced air to radiant heat using mini-tube steam and convectors.

>

> Bottom line--it would still cost 12K to convert our 3BR house, so not cheap by

any means and I don't know when/if we'll be able to do it. But converting to

radiators could cost 3-4x that and just knowing about this alternative gives me

hope!

>

> A new gas boiler would supply steam through small diameter, flexible copper

tubing to convectors in each room. The convectors have an enamel metal cover and

a grill to let warmed air flow into the room (no fan, just natural convection).

Under the cover are metal fins that the steam runs through that would need to be

vacuumed regularly for those with allergies.

>

> One reason it's so much cheaper than radiators to install in an existing home

is that the flexible copper tubing can be fished through walls with minimal

drilling/small holes, while installing regular pipes requires taking down much

larger sections of the wall.

>

> The guy said this was an innovation in steam heat that came about right when

forced air took over the market. He said if this had been available 5 years

before forced air it might be the dominant type of heat today because it's

efficient, clean and cheaper to install and operate than other forms of radiant

heat.

>

> It's not a system he normally sells. He does maintenance on a few systems like

it and learned about it that way. He proposed it as a solution to our problem of

how to convert from forced air to some form of radiant heat in an existing home.

>

> Amy

>

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[Guest guest]

Hi Amy,

I would be very skeptical of a steam system that runs through small- diameter,

flexible tubing because for a single-pipe steam system to function, there can be

no kinks in the piping and it ALL must be sloped perfectly back to the boiler.

If there is even one " loop " in the system, it will bang and not function

properly.

Before going ahead, be sure to get some references from people who have had this

system installed.

Also, please post a reference to it.

Thanks.

May

May Indoor Air Investigations LLC

>

> Thought this might be of interest to someone--a guy from a local plumbing and

heating co told be about an amazing alternative for converting a house with

forced air to radiant heat using mini-tube steam and convectors.

>

> Bottom line--it would still cost 12K to convert our 3BR house, so not cheap by

any means and I don't know when/if we'll be able to do it. But converting to

radiators could cost 3-4x that and just knowing about this alternative gives me

hope!

>

> A new gas boiler would supply steam through small diameter, flexible copper

tubing to convectors in each room. The convectors have an enamel metal cover

and a grill to let warmed air flow into the room (no fan, just natural

convection). Under the cover are metal fins that the steam runs through that

would need to be vacuumed regularly for those with allergies.

>

> One reason it's so much cheaper than radiators to install in an existing home

is that the flexible copper tubing can be fished through walls with minimal

drilling/small holes, while installing regular pipes requires taking down much

larger sections of the wall.

>

> The guy said this was an innovation in steam heat that came about right when

forced air took over the market. He said if this had been available 5 years

before forced air it might be the dominant type of heat today because it's

efficient, clean and cheaper to install and operate than other forms of radiant

heat.

>

> It's not a system he normally sells. He does maintenance on a few systems

like it and learned about it that way. He proposed it as a solution to our

problem of how to convert from forced air to some form of radiant heat in an

existing home.

>

> Amy

>

[Guest guest]

Jeff and Carl, I really appreciate your professional input. The tubes would be

flexible copper, not plastic. Does that mitigate the concerns about

kinking/sloping as long as it is installed by someone who really knows steam

systems? Also there would be 2 pipes to each convector, one input and one

output. The guy who proposed it is well known in Cleveland as someone who does

excellent work fixing and maintaining old steam and hot water systems. He's a

master plumber, gets unanimously glowing Angie's List reviews and maintains a

presence on online heating forums. I do think this system would need to be

installed by someone who knows steam heat inside out.

Good idea to talk to the people he does maintenance for on this system, thanks.

Barb, I'm looking into alternatives to forced air not for economic reasons but

because the forced air gives me red eyes. Before we did lots of work on the

house and heating ducts, I was getting hives when the forced air was on. When

the air is off, no symptoms at all anymore.

We have a limited budget so the economy of the system does come into play, but

my house is better for me at this point than about 95% of friends' and relatives

houses, so we're actually considering heating alternatives in order to stay

here. We've considered moving, but it would be hard to sell our house and there

are so many unknowns in homes for sale.

Ella, nice to hear from someone who shares my enthusiasm, lol! I'm in the

Cleveland suburbs. There are lots of older homes with steam (and hot water)

radiators and several companies that service these systems. If you're in an

area with older homes that have steam heat, you might be able to find someone to

install something like this.

Here is a link to an old brochure on the system. However, there are some key

differences between the original system and what the heating guy proposed. The

old system is called SelecTemp because it used blowers in each room that allowed

you to choose a different temperature setting for each room, a novelty at the

time. The heating guy does maintenance on a system that has the old SelecTemp

blowers in most rooms, but convectors in the bedrooms. His guess was that this

was done because the blowers made some noise, and in bedrooms silent heat was

preferred. Since I'm trying to get away from forced air heat, his idea was to

use convectors throughout the house.

The important innovation of the SelecTemp system, from his point of view, was

using small diameter flexible copper tubing to supply steam. You can see a

photo of the copper tubing in the brochure.

http://www.heatinghelp.com/files/articles/1405/48.pdf

After hearing input here and doing some web searching, I've come up with these

questions for the heating guy. Let me know if you think of anything else.

Ella, #10 is for you.

Amy

1. Who is the manufacturer of the convectors?

2. Who is the manufacturer of the boiler you would use? Is this a boiler that

could be used for any steam heat system (depending on size/output) or is it

specific to this application in some way?

3. Does the boiler need to be at or near its full working pressure and

temperature to provide heat? Would this be any different using all convectors

rather than the original SelecTemp room blower units?

4. Are there significant thermodynamic heat losses through the copper tubing?

You mentioned insulation around the exposed pipes in the basement. Is there any

insulation on the pipes inside the walls, other than the wall cavity itself?

Could this type of system make up for those heat losses with other efficiencies?

5. How prone to leakage are steam traps? Where would they be in the system,

ie, hidden inside the wall or easily viewable/accessible in the basement?

6. I read that the reaction between copper pipes and the metals in the boiler

could cause the boiler to deteriorate much more quickly. Is there anything in

the yearly maintenance that could mitigate this? Would we need to keep an eye

on the boiler and likely replace it sooner than someone who had iron pipes? Any

idea how soon? What's a ballpark replacement cost for the boiler?

7. How tricky is it to fish copper piping through the walls? My guess is

pretty simple for the 1st floor and unknown for the second floor. Anyplace you

hit an obstruction you'd either have to retry it or open up larger/additional

sections of the wall, correct?

8. Is it difficult with flexible copper pipes going through walls to get the

pitch right to drain properly? Is there any chance of kinking or looping or is

the copper just not that flexible?

9. Would copper minitubes be more likely to develop leaks than bigger pipes?

Is there a certain life to the copper tubing? I'm asking because we just had to

replace all the copper on our 60 year old roof!

10. I belong to a sick buildings group and when I described this system,

another member was very interested. I posted the SelecTemp brochure link.

Would you be willing to email or talk with her? If so, could I give her your

company website/email?

[Guest guest]

Here are the answers from the heating guy to my questions about the copper

minitube steam heat system with convectors. I was particularly interested in

the info on where leaks could occur in the system (only exposed places by the

convectors and by the main in the basement) and that when a steam system

develops a leak, you know it because the system malfunctions.

I'll post again after I talk to a homeowner.

I'm interested in any other thoughts on this!

Amy

1. Beacon is the manufacturer of the convectors he recommends:

http://www.beacon-morris.com/html/forced_hot_water_steam_heat.asp

2. The best boilers are made by Burnham. The system would use a boiler that

could be used in a variety of steam systems.

3. The boiler does need to run at ~5 lbs pressure to overcome the friction of

the small tubes. To put this in context, 2-pipe steam systems generally run at

1-2 oz of pressure, while 1-pipe systems average 1-2 lbs. The safety release

valve on all boilers is set at 15 lbs. 5 lbs is not unreasonable. Also, the

boiler achieves working pressure and temperature very quickly because the tubes

are so small, so you're not wasting energy coming up to working temp and

pressure. He said that after he turned on his customer's boiler, heat made it

to the 2nd floor bedroom before he could walk up there from the basement. Some

old radiator systems can take 20 min before 2nd floor radiators feel warm.

4. The heat loss from the pipes is minimal inside the walls. Some of the

basement pipes would be insulated but not all, because basement heat is supplied

by non-insulated pipes. The insulated pipes would be the diameter of a paper

towel roll. The pipes themselves are really small--ID 1/4 " and OD 3/8 " for the

supply and even smaller for the return pipes.

5. The responses to my questions about leaks were reassuring to me. Because

the copper tubing runs continously through the wall with no joints, you would

not get leaking inside the wall. Steam traps are installed on each convector

and at the end of every main in the basement, and these can develop leaks.

Monish-Yonker makes steam traps that are designed to fail closed, which means a

leak results in a cold radiator, rather than steam blowing into your living

space. This makes it much less of an emergency if a steam trap does fail. He

hasn't run across any made by this manufacturer that have failed, in fact, and

installs them regularly.

In short, the only places you could logically have a leak, at joints and steam

traps are all in areas that you can see and not inside walls. Also, he noted

that if you do develop a leak in a steam system you know it because the system

malfunctions. You wouldn't have an undetected leak. Finally, he said he can

add a digital counter on the water feeder to the boiler, so we could keep track

of how much water the system normally takes on and notice if it suddenly jumps

up. He also has a thermocamera that detects leaks inside walls, which he has

used with traditionally plumbed hot water heating system leaks.

6. The reaction between copper pipes and the metals in the boiler could cause

the boiler to deteriorate more quickly. An anode rod could be placed in the

return piping which should help. It would need to be changed every year for $40

(steam heat systems always require yearly maintenance anyway). He'd never

installed one before but he thought it wasn't a bad idea. The boiler on the

residence he works on that has copper minitube steam heat is 20 years old and

going strong.

7. Fishing copper piping through the walls is just like doing it with water

pipes, etc, except that it's easier given the small diameter and flexibility of

the pipe and involves far fewer/much smaller openings in the walls.

8. This system needs to be properly pitched to drain correctly. The copper

would not loop.

9. I talked about leaks above, but would add that the pipes are type L copper,

which has a thcker wall than type M which is used for plumbing projects.

10. Ella, he'd be happy to hear from you if you're interested in this system.

He's planning on installing it on the 1st floor of his house. I'll try to PM

you his info.

[Guest guest]

What if the break in line occurs during the cooling season when it isn't

steaming. Apparently you would know if leak occured because system would fail,

be cold, but if it isn't running anyway due to hot weather then how would you

know if leak occurred for reason of house settling, or some work done nearby

that affected it?

Since water damage is the worst thing that can happen to your home and your

health, second perhaps to fire, I'd be cautious about installing more plumbing.

>

> Here are the answers from the heating guy to my questions about the copper

minitube steam heat system with convectors. I was particularly interested in

the info on where leaks could occur in the system (only exposed places by the

convectors and by the main in the basement) and that when a steam system

develops a leak, you know it because the system malfunctions.

>

[Guest guest]

I can't imagine deciding to put water pipes throughout a home. What do you have

against forced air that can't be fixed? If you put metal ductwork in and a

tight filter on it, there should be no problems.

Are there other options better than forced air does anyone know?

I use those area heaters, two oil fin heaters and one water fin heater but they

don't run through the wall, they are right where I can see everything, in the

middle of where I'm using them.

>

> Here are the answers from the heating guy to my questions about the copper

minitube steam heat system with convectors. I was particularly interested in

the info on where leaks could occur in the system (only exposed places by the

convectors and by the main in the basement) and that when a steam system

develops a leak, you know it because the system malfunctions.

>

> I'll post again after I talk to a homeowner.

>

> I'm interested in any other thoughts on this!

>

> Amy

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Barb, thanks for raising these issues. I have felt hesitant about installing

more plumbing.

I'll ask the heating guy about a break during warm weather when the system isn't

on. My guess is with steam heat (as opposed to hot water) there's

little-to-nothing in the pipe, especially the verticals in side the walls, when

the heat isn't on, but I don't know for sure.

Our first thought was to fix our forced air system. It's all metal ductwork

already. Here's what we've done:

--had it cleaned really thoroughly with a whip that loosens dust throughout the

ductwork. The vents and the last foot of duct before the vent were hand

vacuumed and wiped down.

--installed Filtrete Ultra Allergen filter on the furnace, taping it so that

there are no air leaks and replacing every 1-2 mos

--sealed off 2 air intakes in the basement (the system did not need them to be

balanced)

--had the basement professionally sanitized and cleaned. The guy did an

excellent job

--fixed a roof leak and a plumbing leak and had affected wood removed under

containment

Things are better and we're using those oil filled radiators which have reduced

how much central heat we need, but there are still plenty of times we need it in

northeast Ohio and that's when my eyes get red. We had a cold spell not too

long ago and I have hives above one of my eyes again.

What next--get someone with a camera to go through the ductwork to see if there

are particular problem areas? Replace the ductwork in the basement? But what

if the problem comes from or has spread to the ducts inside the walls?

Then one day my husband said, we could do all this, but maybe forced air is just

the wrong kind of heat for us. Since the house is fine when the heat isn't on,

I thought back to what Carl has said about how you could have a jungle growing

inside the wall and it may not be a problem, depending on if it's contained and

how sensitive you are.

Please don't misunderstand--I wouldn't intentionally leave a leak unrepaired.

But maybe it's just a bad idea for us to have air from inside the wall cavity,

and air going through the ductwork that certainly isn't white-glove clean,

blowing on us all the time.

I think forced air could work if the ducts are sealed (ours aren't) and if the

system is maintained properly from the beginning. But yes, I guess I do have an

ax to grind against forced air given my issues with it!

Amy

[Guest guest]

I see. YOu've really worked on this already. Who does basement santitation?

What did that entail?

Sounds like you have something in the house that is being spread by air movement

but might not be getting INTO the ducts but just the the air circulation is

kicking it up.

You can test ducts by putting a mold plate facing each duct and see if you catch

anything through one in particular and one facing room on the cold air returns.

If ones on registers don't have much but cold air return does, then mold or

whatever it is, is getting into the house via some other way than the furnace

system. In that case, having house 'air sealed', so nothing in the walls can

get in through the many holes interior of house has. There are now companies

starting to specialize in this. Of course, as many point out in here, not

encouraging you to stay there.

>

> Hi Barb, thanks for raising these issues. I have felt hesitant about

installing more plumbing.

>

> I'll ask the heating guy about a break during warm weather when the system

isn't on. My guess is with steam heat (as opposed to hot water) there's

little-to-nothing in the pipe, especially the verticals in side the walls, when

the heat isn't on, but I don't know for sure.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Please look at solid state heating panels. Enerjoy in Cn. It is the best heating

system I have ever seen or felt, had it installed in my last house, it is a very

cheap retrofit, very cheap to run, and the safest, healthiest heat around.

>

> Hi Barb, thanks for raising these issues. I have felt hesitant about

installing more plumbing.

>

> I'll ask the heating guy about a break during warm weather when the system

isn't on. My guess is with steam heat (as opposed to hot water) there's

little-to-nothing in the pipe, especially the verticals in side the walls, when

the heat isn't on, but I don't know for sure.

>

> Our first thought was to fix our forced air system. It's all metal ductwork

already. Here's what we've done:

> --had it cleaned really thoroughly with a whip that loosens dust throughout

the ductwork. The vents and the last foot of duct before the vent were hand

vacuumed and wiped down.

> --installed Filtrete Ultra Allergen filter on the furnace, taping it so that

there are no air leaks and replacing every 1-2 mos

> --sealed off 2 air intakes in the basement (the system did not need them to be

balanced)

> --had the basement professionally sanitized and cleaned. The guy did an

excellent job

> --fixed a roof leak and a plumbing leak and had affected wood removed under

containment

>

> Things are better and we're using those oil filled radiators which have

reduced how much central heat we need, but there are still plenty of times we

need it in northeast Ohio and that's when my eyes get red. We had a cold spell

not too long ago and I have hives above one of my eyes again.

>

> What next--get someone with a camera to go through the ductwork to see if

there are particular problem areas? Replace the ductwork in the basement? But

what if the problem comes from or has spread to the ducts inside the walls?

>

> Then one day my husband said, we could do all this, but maybe forced air is

just the wrong kind of heat for us. Since the house is fine when the heat isn't

on, I thought back to what Carl has said about how you could have a jungle

growing inside the wall and it may not be a problem, depending on if it's

contained and how sensitive you are.

>

> Please don't misunderstand--I wouldn't intentionally leave a leak unrepaired.

But maybe it's just a bad idea for us to have air from inside the wall cavity,

and air going through the ductwork that certainly isn't white-glove clean,

blowing on us all the time.

>

> I think forced air could work if the ducts are sealed (ours aren't) and if the

system is maintained properly from the beginning. But yes, I guess I do have an

ax to grind against forced air given my issues with it!

>

> Amy

>

[Guest guest]

Amy, what was done in your basement to 'professionally sanitize basement'? Just

wondering, and what type of professional does this? Thanks

>

--had the basement professionally sanitized and cleaned. The guy did an

excellent job

[Guest guest]

Hi Barb,

I'm sorry, I don't think my word choice was good...but this what he did--

--with negative pressure from a fan blowing out the window, shop vaced

everything

--wiped down any visible mold with a bleach solution (we didn't have a lot, just

some places along the wall a few feet up from the floor)

--used a wire brush on any parts of the wall with efflorescence or loose paint

--used a German steam cleaning machine to wash down walls and floor

--wiped down the ceiling, wiring/ductwork and anything else that couldn't be

steam cleaned with the same cleaning solution

We had cleared everything out of the basement and threw out what couldn't be

washed thoroughly.

It made a huge difference. To maintain it, I just vacuum and mop the floor.

We'll have him back yearly to do the whole thing again, to keep it up.

We had had someone else clean the basement before and they did a lousy job. The

guy who did it well specializes in wall cleaning, wallpaper removal and " minor

mold " (whatever that means).

Amy

> >

> --had the basement professionally sanitized and cleaned. The guy did an

excellent job

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Thanks for the suggestion. I'm in the information gathering phase and will

definitely look into it.

Amy

>

>

> Please look at solid state heating panels. Enerjoy in Cn.