Re: immunology, IgE

[Guest guest]

Yes. It is an immune complex disease. However, it is also a disease of chronic

activation with appropriate tissue damaging proinflammatory cytokines. There

may also be some aspects of delayed (Type IV) immune response. HP is a

complicated process that is not fully understood even today. However, it is a

reactive lung disease process and should not be taken lightly. Often,

individuals are put on chronic corticosteroid therapy, which increases their

risk for fungal pulmonary invasion (Aspergillosis).

Re: [] Re: immunology, IgE

Jack,

That is my understanding, too, as I learned it from Dr. Marinkovich. HP

is a type III hypersensitivity response, as are autoimmune diseases. People

tend to think of HP as only impacting the lungs. No. It is a chronic

inflammatory response to an antigen in which the over activated macrophages

circulate throughout the system trying to stop the destruction of the microbes

by helping to make anti-bodies'; also known as a circulating immune

response.

Serum sickness.

Air-conditioner lung, caused by mold and other contaminants in the AC of

WDB, is a form of HP. As such, it should be able to be diagnosed just like

any other form of HP such as Farmer's Lung with comes from mold in silos,

primarily.

That is how I understand it, anyway.

Sharon

[Guest guest]

thats really what I'm attemping to do here. to me the gell and combs

standards have validity. I think that was good and vadid testing. I dont think

the IgE points to only a allergy.along with the specfic IgE and IgE testing done

I had intrademal skin testing witch showed T.C.E. ALTERNARIA,CLAOSPORIUM, MOLD

A, ASPERGILLUS,PENICILLIUM,FORMALIN,STACHY,FUSARIUM,EPICOCCUM,PULLUARIA

I had some weird things happen with my second exposure, besides a green

cataracts forming, some type of meningitis, CSF leaks, green pee and I passed a

glob of muticolored mucus lineing, that looked somewhat like afterbirth, my

insides were raw and on fire.

from my nose,throat stomach and clear to the bowels.

it seems to me that in this state intradermal allergy testing might just show

that your body is reacting to what was just involved in your exposure. mold

mixes. in a situation of a WDB where it's been accumalating for some 20+ years,

whats in that filth that goes into your body along with everthing else your

breathing could be alot of things.

to me it seems that may be some up sets with the immune system when the exposure

or exposures are so demanding on the neutrophils and

to the point close to anemia arises, maybe changes in how the innate and aquired

immune system deal with all this. the feed back between the two and what may

take place there is a interesting subject.

I too, just haven't been felling the greatest lately and it makes it alot harder

to rap my brain around things. theres cant of a disconect in the brain I have

problems with and it gets worse when I m not felling very good.

I'd also like to be able to show evidence of what I believe

may be more of a reactive state to mold mixes with intrademal testing

right after my exposure,by a regular allergest, than a true allergy

..

>

> Goodness, this group is certainly giving me some great publications to read

lately. I am so glad I joined.

[Guest guest]

A little off topic :

what about the use of systemic corticosteroids in the treatment of HP ?? 

Opinions please... 

 

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

[Guest guest]

I had type 111 IgG. thats makes sence to me. thanks.

>

> Jack,

>

> That is my understanding, too, as I learned it from Dr. Marinkovich. HP

> is a type III hypersensitivity response, as are autoimmune diseases. People

> tend to think of HP as only impacting the lungs. No. It is a chronic

> inflammatory response to an antigen in which the over activated macrophages

> circulate throughout the system trying to stop the destruction of the microbes

> by helping to make anti-bodies'; also known as a circulating immune

> response.

>

> Serum sickness.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yes. Another point that drives me nuts! Long term steroid use. Short

term to help calm the reactions down seem to be appropriate in some

instances. But long term...makes me wonder how many times people do not get

better

because the steroids increased their susceptability, only to be told that

it seems the steroids did not work to correct the problem. No. Of course

not. They helped to cause it.

In a message dated 9/7/2010 1:09:30 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,

toxicologist1@... writes:

Yes. It is an immune complex disease. However, it is also a disease of

chronic activation with appropriate tissue damaging proinflammatory cytokines.

There may also be some aspects of delayed (Type IV) immune response. HP is

a complicated process that is not fully understood even today. However, it

is a reactive lung disease process and should not be taken lightly. Often,

individuals are put on chronic corticosteroid therapy, which increases

their risk for fungal pulmonary invasion (Aspergillosis).

Re: [] Re: immunology, IgE

Jack,

That is my understanding, too, as I learned it from Dr. Marinkovich. HP

is a type III hypersensitivity response, as are autoimmune diseases.

People

tend to think of HP as only impacting the lungs. No. It is a chronic

inflammatory response to an antigen in which the over activated

macrophages

circulate throughout the system trying to stop the destruction of the

microbes

by helping to make anti-bodies'; also known as a circulating immune

response.

Serum sickness.

Air-conditioner lung, caused by mold and other contaminants in the AC of

WDB, is a form of HP. As such, it should be able to be diagnosed just like

any other form of HP such as Farmer's Lung with comes from mold in silos,

primarily.

That is how I understand it, anyway.

Sharon

[Guest guest]

There can be different finding in different stages of illness.  Acute, sub

acute, chronic, etc.

This site has a good refference for causes of HP , my understanding there are

over 300 antigens that can cause it as well as chemical agents. 

http://www.haz-map.com/hypersen.htm

 

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

________________________________

From: " snk1955@... " <snk1955@...>

Sent: Tue, September 7, 2010 1:12:55 PM

Subject: Re: [] Re: immunology, IgE

 

Connie,

I don't know about the following. You could be right:

" Sharon, in many of the mold cases in which I have been involved, the

physicians have testified that the IgG represent repeated more long term

exposures, as opposed to the short term exposure represented by IgA. "

All else, yes. That is my understanding, too.

Sharon

[Guest guest]

Dr. Thrasher, are there some papers from WHO and CDC on this? thanks.

--- In , " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

wrote:

>

> HP is a chronic inflammatory disease, not IgE (allergic) disease. IgG is used

to identify HP. The naysayers (industry sources) are attempting to say that HP

only occurs from very elevated concentrations of mold spores, therefore, it

cannot occur in a building or home setting. This is wrong since WHO and CDC are

now recognizing that home owners can also get the disease.

[Guest guest]

There are many ingredients in perfume but the worst trigger for me was orris

root. Orris root is in most perfumes, shaving creams, some shampoo, etc. On an

allergy scale of 1-10, I was a 12. Perfume can cause seizure like symptoms for

me immediately. As bad as mold for me. Also,I read somewhere that some perfume

contains mycotoxins so any of these things could be what causes you to react.

Its so difficult as it is just everywhere. Perfume is a multi-million dollar

business. Unfortunately it keeps all of us isolated. D

>

> Yes , I have non allergic anaphalaxis, maybe the reactor are the mycotoxins

and

> not the mold allergy parts.  I tested once allergic to mold , then another

time

> not allergic.   I still have a problem with molds. I am no expert at any of

this

> except to what my body percieves and reacts to.  My pulmo's have seen black

and

> white and all they know is what they are taught and nothng new is acceptable

to

> them thus far.  

>

> I  also have non-allergic anaphalaxis to perfume. No test for that.  How do

we

> know exactly what is causing our reactions?  Funny thing is some perfumes are

> really killers and thers are really bad but not killers to me. I remove my

self

> from all but some I react to so badly there is not time to stop my throat

from

> swelling.  I wonder what is the difference in those. 

>

>  

>

> God Bless !!

> dragonflymcs

> Mayleen

[Guest guest]

yes, you and I knew there was something N O a long time ago.

cant say Im light years ahead, one tract mind makes it hard to put the whole

picture together. for everything I soak in much more flies out the window. it's

a constant process of refreshing my memory,re-reading,

re-thinking,re-everything. blaaa, hate the way my brain functions now. while I'm

a big believer in re-training the brain after brain injury, theres just some

limits to it. there are some areas I just haven't took the time on yet,

spelling,ect. more important issues at hand.

>

> Jeanine,

>

> You are light years ahead of me in understanding the details of this.

> Don't forget nitric oxide in the equation.

>

>

> In a message dated 9/7/2010 10:43:55 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,

> jeaninem660@... writes:

>

> yep, it appeared that way to me the first time, than I went back a took my

> time reading it, searched a few key words and it started makeing more

> sence. cross reactive protiens, also theres something else that might play in

> with Ig's that I hadnt ever heard before

>

> Immunoglobulin Class Switching

> _http://www.wikigenes.org/e/mesh/e/13399.html_

> (http://www.wikigenes.org/e/mesh/e/13399.html)

>

> interesting that anemia is brought up.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Diane, That is something I did not know. Mycotoxins in perfume.  I can tell

the

detergents (some) by smell.  This guy washed his clothes at home. A few weeks

before he said.  I went to building to pick up a need.  No one there, place

wide

open.  To me it smelled permeated.  Si I told him " Do you wash this place with

Gain, it is horrible ( I was at the door)  It was a garage type place......he

says no I use it at home to wash my clothes, but not recently "   He could not

believe I knew the brand and could smell it.  They never used it there. 

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

[Guest guest]

Here are the types:

Type I: IgE mediated allergies

Type II Cytotoxic Hypersensitivity - leading to various autoimmune disorders.

Type III - Immune complex diseases, e.g. Aspergillosis, systemic lupus,

polyarteritis

Type IV - Cell mediated delayed hypersensitivity -erthythema, granulomas to name

a few.

The British now have a Type V - Autoimmunity.

[] Re: immunology, IgE

I had type 111 IgG. thats makes sence to me. thanks.

>

> Jack,

>

> That is my understanding, too, as I learned it from Dr. Marinkovich. HP

> is a type III hypersensitivity response, as are autoimmune diseases. People

> tend to think of HP as only impacting the lungs. No. It is a chronic

> inflammatory response to an antigen in which the over activated macrophages

> circulate throughout the system trying to stop the destruction of the

microbes

> by helping to make anti-bodies'; also known as a circulating immune

> response.

>

> Serum sickness.

>

>

[Guest guest]

You would have to check the CDC web site and the recent 2007 WHO document on

mold and damp indoor spaces.

[] Re: immunology, IgE

Dr. Thrasher, are there some papers from WHO and CDC on this? thanks.

>

> HP is a chronic inflammatory disease, not IgE (allergic) disease. IgG is

used to identify HP. The naysayers (industry sources) are attempting to say that

HP only occurs from very elevated concentrations of mold spores, therefore, it

cannot occur in a building or home setting. This is wrong since WHO and CDC are

now recognizing that home owners can also get the disease.

[Guest guest]

ok, thanks for all the info. on this subject.

--- In , " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

wrote:

>

> You would have to check the CDC web site and the recent 2007 WHO document on

mold and damp indoor spaces.

>

[Guest guest]

yes, steriods, BAD,BAD,BAD, even short term had horrable effects for me. both

times doctors that were ignoring my WDB exposure. one was a ENT. gave me a

steriod nasal spray, I was leary to try it but desided to try it at least once,

wow, bad idea, I body was in horrable pain for a week+.

>

> Yes. Another point that drives me nuts! Long term steroid use. Short

> term to help calm the reactions down seem to be appropriate in some

> instances. But long term...makes me wonder how many times people do not get

better

> because the steroids increased their susceptability, only to be told that

> it seems the steroids did not work to correct the problem. No. Of course

> not. They helped to cause it.

>

[Guest guest]

I do not understand why so many with lung disease say it saved their lives. 

Fungal caused lung disease , why ?  They have been on it for years at a time.

 

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

________________________________

From: " snk1955@... " <snk1955@...>

Sent: Tue, September 7, 2010 6:45:47 PM

Subject: Re: [] Re: immunology, IgE

 

Yes. Another point that drives me nuts! Long term steroid use. Short

term to help calm the reactions down seem to be appropriate in some

instances. But long term...makes me wonder how many times people do not get

better

because the steroids increased their susceptability, only to be told that

it seems the steroids did not work to correct the problem. No. Of course

not. They helped to cause it.

[Guest guest]

It is like antibitotics they give it to everyone !!   I was given some for an

injury.  If I had known better back then.  I hate the stuff would not touch

it

again.   yet this is what they prescribe. HA   It takes 5 years to rid your

body

of it is my understanding once you stop.

 

  

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

________________________________

From: osisposis <jeaninem660@...>

Sent: Tue, September 7, 2010 8:12:02 PM

Subject: [] Re: immunology, IgE

 

yes, steriods, BAD,BAD,BAD, even short term had horrable effects for me. both

times doctors that were ignoring my WDB exposure. one was a ENT. gave me a

steriod nasal spray, I was leary to try it but desided to try it at least once,

wow, bad idea, I body was in horrable pain for a week+.

[Guest guest]

I'm somewhat confused (and in the thick of crisis right now so please understand

if this is a simple question). If someone has a delayed reaction to skin

testing, is this type III or type IV? Thank you.

On Sep 7, 2010, at 4:10 PM, " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

wrote:

Here are the types:

Type I: IgE mediated allergies

Type II Cytotoxic Hypersensitivity - leading to various autoimmune disorders.

Type III - Immune complex diseases, e.g. Aspergillosis, systemic lupus,

polyarteritis

Type IV - Cell mediated delayed hypersensitivity -erthythema, granulomas to name

a few.

The British now have a Type V - Autoimmunity.

[Guest guest]

I used steroids for a year and a half to help stop my reactions gained

80 pounds Im only 5 /4 so this didn't help. Plus I had to come off them

real slow or it was very painfull.

Janet

In a message dated 9/7/2010 8:16:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

jeaninem660@... writes:

yes, steriods, BAD,BAD,BAD, even short term had horrable effects for me.

both times doctors that were ignoring my WDB exposure. one was a ENT. gave me

a steriod nasal spray, I was leary to try it but desided to try it at

least once, wow, bad idea, I body was in horrable pain for a week+.

[Guest guest]

Within a week of taking hydrocortisone prescribed by the F & F, I was flat on my

back with a terrible sore throat that wouldn't quit.

I also had an extremely high temperature and couldn't get out of bed until I

stopped the compounded script. I was sick like that for a week before I figured

it out. I tried the usual herbs that always worked when I got a sore throat.

They wouldn't even touch it.

Nothing helped until I stopped the product. Through this and other support

groups I have learned that taking hydrocortisone is like throwing gas on a fire.

Little did I know. I was told by the F & F that

I was detoxing. I knew that wasn't true because I had been taking high doses of

C that detoxed me for several months before I ever started the hydrocortisone.

If only I had known then.......

Kathi

>

> It is like antibitotics they give it to everyone !!   I was given some for

an

> injury.  If I had known better back then.  I hate the stuff would not touch

it

> again.   yet this is what they prescribe. HA   It takes 5 years to rid

your body

> of it is my understanding once you stop.

>

>  

>   

> God Bless !!

> dragonflymcs

> Mayleen

>

>

[Guest guest]

What kind of reaction did you have,  

1. Anaphylaxis

2. Urticaria

3. Angioedema

4. Atopic Allergy How soon was the reaction ?  hours, days, weeks

 

 

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

________________________________

From: Advocate_Now <advocate_now@...>

" " < >

Sent: Wed, September 8, 2010 1:20:16 AM

Subject: Re: [] Re: immunology, IgE

 

I'm somewhat confused (and in the thick of crisis right now so please understand

if this is a simple question). If someone has a delayed reaction to skin

testing, is this type III or type IV? Thank you.

On Sep 7, 2010, at 4:10 PM, " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

wrote:

Here are the types:

Type I: IgE mediated allergies

Type II Cytotoxic Hypersensitivity - leading to various autoimmune disorders.

Type III - Immune complex diseases, e.g. Aspergillosis, systemic lupus,

polyarteritis

Type IV - Cell mediated delayed hypersensitivity -erthythema, granulomas to name

a few.

The British now have a Type V - Autoimmunity.

[Guest guest]

Mayleen

I hear you. I evetually gave up. Now see an allergist and try to read all I

can on what could help. Im sending smiles

Janet

In a message dated 9/8/2010 6:40:46 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

dragonflymcs@... writes:

I have been treated like a nut too and still even though you can see it in

a CT

[Guest guest]

Janet, did they help your reactions? seems weird to me that some could even

tolerate steriods, I wonder what is going on with that, exposure to specific

molds? or different immune reactions or what?

do you remember when you first started on steriods, did they make you fell

better immediately or did they first make you fell worse than

gradually your body adjusted to it? just wondering.

sence my exposure I had several different med's,inhalents,ect. thrown at me,

alot made me fell worse, I just couldn't take felling worse than I already did,

plus being treated like crap, told I was nuts when I brought up how my moldy

house had made me so sick, I wasn't to thrilled with any doctors that wasn't

able to listen and try to figure out why that house had hurt me so bad so I

wasn't very convienced that their treatment would be what I needed. if I didn't

like the effect, I didn't take it. I just couldn't make myself.

I know that in some causes you might have to fell worse before you fell better,

but in these cases I'm glad I made the choises that I did.

>

> I used steroids for a year and a half to help stop my reactions gained

> 80 pounds Im only 5 /4 so this didn't help. Plus I had to come off them

> real slow or it was very painfull.

> Janet

>

>

> In a message dated 9/7/2010 8:16:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

> jeaninem660@... writes:

>

> yes, steriods, BAD,BAD,BAD, even short term had horrable effects for me.

> both times doctors that were ignoring my WDB exposure. one was a ENT. gave me

> a steriod nasal spray, I was leary to try it but desided to try it at

> least once, wow, bad idea, I body was in horrable pain for a week+.

>

[Guest guest]

I have a girlfriend who lives in a *finished basement*, can't convince her it

may be bad for her health, has a horrible sinus infection. When I mention the

basement, she says it isn't her place so she can't afford to have it tested or

fixed if there is a problem...huh! Anyway, her doctor put her on prednisone and

high dose antibiotics. She says she feels worse and can't wait to get off of

them. I can't force her, have to wait until she does what she thinks is right

first but I feel like I already know what is wrong with her but she is listening

to her doctor, of course. Everyone needs to go through a learning curve on

this! Mentioned to her experts in here, and web addresses and ENT rec by Dr

thrasher. She said she keep it for future reference.

>

> Within a week of taking hydrocortisone prescribed by the F & F, I was flat on

my back with a terrible sore throat that wouldn't quit.

> I also had an extremely high temperature and couldn't get out of bed until I

stopped the compounded script. I was sick like that for a week before I figured

it out. I tried the usual herbs that always worked when I got a sore throat.

They wouldn't even touch it.

> Nothing helped until I stopped the product. Through this and other support

groups I have learned that taking hydrocortisone is like throwing gas on a fire.

Little did I know. I was told by the F & F that

> I was detoxing. I knew that wasn't true because I had been taking high doses

of C that detoxed me for several months before I ever started the

hydrocortisone. If only I had known then.......

>

> Kathi

>

[Guest guest]

I had #4 24 hours later (itchy, raised welts) that lasted several days and then

went away; they all came back a full two weeks after the test when I had a bout

of gastroenteritis. In the past I had classic #1.

On Sep 8, 2010, at 12:31 PM, dragonflymcs <dragonflymcs@...> wrote:

What kind of reaction did you have,

1. Anaphylaxis

2. Urticaria

3. Angioedema

4. Atopic Allergy How soon was the reaction ? hours, days, weeks

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

________________________________

From: Advocate_Now <advocate_now@...>

" " < >

Sent: Wed, September 8, 2010 1:20:16 AM

Subject: Re: [] Re: immunology, IgE

I'm somewhat confused (and in the thick of crisis right now so please understand

if this is a simple question). If someone has a delayed reaction to skin

testing, is this type III or type IV? Thank you.

On Sep 7, 2010, at 4:10 PM, " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

wrote:

Here are the types:

Type I: IgE mediated allergies

Type II Cytotoxic Hypersensitivity - leading to various autoimmune disorders.

Type III - Immune complex diseases, e.g. Aspergillosis, systemic lupus,

polyarteritis

Type IV - Cell mediated delayed hypersensitivity -erthythema, granulomas to name

a few.

The British now have a Type V - Autoimmunity.

[Guest guest]

Barb,

I agree: " Everyone needs to go through a learning curve on this! "

Just as we each have our own reactions to our own combinations of exposures we

also have our own style and time of learning.

That doesn't mean we all have our own definitions of physical facts. But we do

have our own experience.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

(fm my Blackberry)

[] Re: immunology, IgE

I have a girlfriend who lives in a *finished basement*, can't convince her it

may be bad for her health, has a horrible sinus infection. When I mention the

basement, she says it isn't her place so she can't afford to have it tested or

fixed if there is a problem...huh! Anyway, her doctor put her on prednisone and

high dose antibiotics. She says she feels worse and can't wait to get off of

them. I can't force her, have to wait until she does what she thinks is right

first but I feel like I already know what is wrong with her but she is listening

to her doctor, of course. Everyone needs to go through a learning curve on

this! Mentioned to her experts in here, and web addresses and ENT rec by Dr

thrasher. She said she keep it for future reference.

>

> Within a week of taking hydrocortisone prescribed by the F & F, I was flat on

my back with a terrible sore throat that wouldn't quit.

> I also had an extremely high temperature and couldn't get out of bed until I

stopped the compounded script. I was sick like that for a week before I figured

it out. I tried the usual herbs that always worked when I got a sore throat.

They wouldn't even touch it.

> Nothing helped until I stopped the product. Through this and other support

groups I have learned that taking hydrocortisone is like throwing gas on a fire.

Little did I know. I was told by the F & F that

> I was detoxing. I knew that wasn't true because I had been taking high doses

of C that detoxed me for several months before I ever started the

hydrocortisone. If only I had known then.......

>

> Kathi

>