Animals

[Guest guest]

Since they do research on HCV with chimpanzees, I guess they can get

it and if they bleed on you they can transmit it. Arlene

[Guest guest]

hi,

i'm curious.

just how do you all feel about testing on animals?

do they have the EXACT physiology as we?

is that really going to help?

i am not sure how i feel about this.

i know that i have always been opposed to animal testing for cosmetics, etc.

will this really help save our lives?

just wanted to know some other perspectives on this.

i feel like my principles are being compromised at every turn!

talyne

[Guest guest]

Talyne, this is realy a catch 22. I would prefer that animals not be

used for research, and there is no excuse to do it for the sake of our

vanity, i.e. cosmetics. However, our own lives are at stake, and how

else to do it, on human guinea pigs? Arlene

[Guest guest]

I think so to arlene,

and those of us who eat meat, makes me wonder if cleaning the meat before

eating.

if it was HCV positive, then maybe it can be passed on that way. through

cuts in our skin.!!!

ine...aka. ( 'Tinkerbell'... )

============================================

> Since they do research on HCV with chimpanzees, I guess they can get

> it and if they bleed on you they can transmit it.

Arlene

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I wonder the same think Talyne,

I think it depends on the animals they use....

it is sad to think that animals are dying for research, but in my eyes

sadder still

if no research is done and people die because of no break-through's in

medical

science. I tend to be alittle ignorant, and try not the think about it..)

now that is honesty..)

I agree that animals shouldn't be used for cosmetic research too..

ine...aka. ( 'Tinkerbell'... )

=============================================

> hi,

>

> i'm curious.

> just how do you all feel about testing on animals?

> do they have the EXACT physiology as we?

> is that really going to help?

> i am not sure how i feel about this.

> i know that i have always been opposed to animal testing for cosmetics,

etc.

> will this really help save our lives?

> just wanted to know some other perspectives on this.

> i feel like my principles are being compromised at every turn!

> talyne

>

[Guest guest]

hi,

yeah, my daughter said " well if they tell me to choose between a chimp and

you sorry, i don't care about the chimp. "

i tend to agree as well. as a person who has held sp many principles so dear

and steadfast, this compromising stuff gets to me sometimes.

but, we've agreed that cosmetic testing is bad. so hey we're still " all

there " , we still have some principles.

what'd you say we just run with that one, eh?

good day to all

talyne

aka: talyne

[Guest guest]

hi,

yeah my daughter the biologist says, i disected frogs and i don't feel bad

because i learned about them. which i thought was wise,

but this was funny.

she said " We ain't at the top of the food chain for nothin' mom! "

[Guest guest]

I seem to recall a posting about a seminar on working with animals, but

can't locate it. Could you please send me the information again - privately

at riners@...

THANKS

Ann

[Guest guest]

I have a child (2 years) who is very abusive towards animals. We're

adopting her and we had been told by one developmental psychologist

that she has Reactive Attachment Disorder. We believe that was why she

did it. I recently had an extremely thorough eval done though by an

expert in RAD and she said that she did not have it, but diagnosed her

with PDD/Aspergers instead.

At any rate, we had been telling her, " Nice hands " and how to pet the

animal and such and this doctor told us that she is NOT allowed to

touch the animals, period. She said with kids who are abusive that the

rule needs to be hard and fast that they simply are not allowed to

touch or go around them at all.

This has made life somewhat difficult for us as we have so many pets,

but we have been trying it. It's just overwhelming at times. I don't

have any other answers for you than that. You have my

sympathies...........

[Guest guest]

Re:

Animals

I have a child (2 years) who is very abusive

towards animals. We're

adopting her and we had been told by one

developmental psychologist

that she has Reactive Attachment Disorder. We

believe that was why she

did it. I recently had an extremely thorough eval

done though by an

expert in RAD and she said that she did not have

it, but diagnosed her

with PDD/Aspergers instead.

At any rate, we had been telling her, " Nice

hands " and how to pet the

animal and such and this doctor told us that she

is NOT allowed to

touch the animals, period. She said with kids who

are abusive that the

rule needs to be hard and fast that they simply

are not allowed to

touch or go around them at all.

This has made life somewhat difficult for us as we

have so many pets,

but we have been trying it. It's just overwhelming

at times. I don't

have any other answers for you than that. You have

my

sympathies...........

*************************My son 12 has

always been great with animals. As a baby before he could crawl (which he never

really did) I showed him how to pat the dog on the back not on the head. If he

pulled his skin at all I would say “pat Barney nicely, or you can’t

play with him”. If he then pulled his skin I would move him away from the

dog and tell him he couldn’t play with him. After 5 days of this he

always patted him on the back and dogs love him. Also, something I just read in a Temple Grandin book was to teach them with stuffed animals. Possibly this would

help, showing the child how the pat and where to pat on a stuffed animal. Once

they treat the stuffed animal kindly, then they can pat the pet. Tell them this and make it clear they

will touch the animal unless it is done nicely. Just a few thoughts…Gail

[Guest guest]

My DS is like this too, which strikes me as unusual sometimes. He is acutally

pretty loving for an ASD diagnosed kid. He loves hugs & stuff. He often hits &

pushes his brother too...like he thinks it is not even wrong. I think DS does

it for the reaction from the cat. When the cat hisses or bats at him he

laughs...that is until it scratches him!

As far as RAD, I wouldnt worry about that, it is very rare and almost always

associated with severe & prolonged abuse in early childhood. I dont know how

much you know about her history, but the abuse would have to be pretty severe.

It was the " in " thing for a while in education of counselors (I know b/c I was

in school getting my counseling degree then) and so people started to " see " it

everywhere.

I think the " nice hands " is a good idea.

Maybe the pets are a little too stimulating for her?

Good luck with your daughter, and your pets!

>===== Original Message From " Gail Africa " <lilies@...> =====

> Re: Animals

>

>

>I have a child (2 years) who is very abusive towards animals. We're

>adopting her and we had been told by one developmental psychologist

>that she has Reactive Attachment Disorder. We believe that was why she

>did it. I recently had an extremely thorough eval done though by an

>expert in RAD and she said that she did not have it, but diagnosed her

>with PDD/Aspergers instead.

>

>At any rate, we had been telling her, " Nice hands " and how to pet the

>animal and such and this doctor told us that she is NOT allowed to

>touch the animals, period. She said with kids who are abusive that the

>rule needs to be hard and fast that they simply are not allowed to

>touch or go around them at all.

>

>This has made life somewhat difficult for us as we have so many pets,

>but we have been trying it. It's just overwhelming at times. I don't

>have any other answers for you than that. You have my

>sympathies...........

>

>

>*************************My son 12 has always been great with animals.

>As a baby before he could crawl (which he never really did) I showed him

>how to pat the dog on the back not on the head. If he pulled his skin at

>all I would say " pat Barney nicely, or you can't play with him " . If he

>then pulled his skin I would move him away from the dog and tell him he

>couldn't play with him. After 5 days of this he always patted him on the

>back and dogs love him. Also, something I just read in a Temple Grandin

>book was to teach them with stuffed animals. Possibly this would help,

>showing the child how the pat and where to pat on a stuffed animal. Once

>they treat the stuffed animal kindly, then they can pat the pet. Tell

>them this and make it clear they will touch the animal unless it is done

>nicely. Just a few thoughts.Gail

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

is an animal lover, he gets very angry at the mere thought of animals being hurt. Animals, dogs in particular are one of his obsessions. However....when he was 2 he would hit them to see what happened. We were on a farm and we really had to work with him on being gentle. Eventually he got it and he wouldn't believe me now if I told him he did this as a toddler!

RE: Re: Animals

-----Original Message-----From: kintonoah [mailto:julianawooley@...] Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 9:12 AMAutism and Aspergers Treatment Subject: Re: Animals

I have a child (2 years) who is very abusive towards animals. We'readopting her and we had been told by one developmental psychologistthat she has Reactive Attachment Disorder. We believe that was why shedid it. I recently had an extremely thorough eval done though by anexpert in RAD and she said that she did not have it, but diagnosed herwith PDD/Aspergers instead.At any rate, we had been telling her, "Nice hands" and how to pet theanimal and such and this doctor told us that she is NOT allowed totouch the animals, period. She said with kids who are abusive that therule needs to be hard and fast that they simply are not allowed totouch or go around them at all.This has made life somewhat difficult for us as we have so many pets,but we have been trying it. It's just overwhelming at times. I don'thave any other answers for you than that. You have mysympathies...........

*************************My son 12 has always been great with animals. As a baby before he could crawl (which he never really did) I showed him how to pat the dog on the back not on the head. If he pulled his skin at all I would say “pat Barney nicely, or you can’t play with him”. If he then pulled his skin I would move him away from the dog and tell him he couldn’t play with him. After 5 days of this he always patted him on the back and dogs love him. Also, something I just read in a Temple Grandin book was to teach them with stuffed animals. Possibly this would help, showing the child how the pat and where to pat on a stuffed animal. Once they treat the stuffed animal kindly, then they can pat the pet. Tell them this and make it clear they will touch the animal unless it is done nicely. Just a few thoughts…Gail

[Guest guest]

Anne, I was looking through Carol Gray's Social Stories (I think it

is the revised edition) today and there are at least 2 social stories

in there about being nice to animals.

I just attended a workshop that talked about making picture books to

go with social stories - using magazine photos or actual photos of

your own kid or even stick figure illustrations that demonstrate the

social story being taught. Maybe you could come up with something

like that?

Anne (the other Anne!), Mom to Jack, 7.5, AS, DSI, ADD

> Does anyone have a child who hits animals no matter what you do to

> discourage that behavior. I have told Cameron time and again, and

punished

> him, but it's like he doesn't remember- which I know he DOES, but

he seems

> to think it's okay to hit animals, and chase animals and just be

mean to

> them. Anyone else? Any advice?

>

> Anne

[Guest guest]

is a vegetarian because she can't stand the thought of hurting animals. She doesn't understand why people would want to eat them. For Mother's Day we are going on a trip to the Farm Sanctuary, a farm where rescued animals live. She is so excited. We will see the turkey we adopted for Thanksgiving.designs <scottdesigns@...> wrote:

is an animal lover, he gets very angry at the mere thought of animals being hurt.

Carol, mom to

, 3/14/94

, 2/18/97

Lily, 9/7/04__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Hi , I once had a cat that would do sit-ups with my Mom, how cool is that?

Furr Babies,

Pink Pussycat <pinkpussycat@...> wrote:

I have to put (2 year old long haired red and white cat) in my room when i exercise because he'll get in my way and think I'm playing with him and attack me! If I'm in downdog for any length of time he'll plop right underneath me, so no finishing the vinyasa. He has also popped not one, but TWO stability balls. Tonya sent me a link to get them in bulk! *L*

My other beautful 11-year old black cat, Rowan, is entranced by my workouts and is very polite about staying out of my way, though I do get a whisker tickle in the face every now and then.

Gotta love them! I don't have kids so the pudders are pretty spoiled!

Feline frontal raises,

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Very cute! Awwwwwww....

--- Dahlstrom <volleyjen0416@...>

wrote:

> Hi , I once had a cat that would do

> sit-ups with my Mom, how cool is that?

>

> Furr Babies,

>

>

[Guest guest]

Cute! Did you ever read " The hundred and one Dalmatians " by Dodie ?

There you really got a dog's perspective, and how frustrating it was for

them when they tried to tell their humans that they knew where Cruella was

keeping their pups, but all the humans could make of their attempts to

communicate was " woof, woof " . :-(

That's a bit like how I felt when I was non-verbal. And I couldn't even

bark. :-)

Inger

Re: Re: ugh.. I am so sorry.. I feel

sooo BAD... ugh...

>

>

> In a message dated 1/1/2006 7:13:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

crna_kuna@y... writes:

>

> > My dog knew a lot of words.

>

> the word 'ball' (in whatever sentence, also not directed to him)

> immediately puts my dog in high alert phase ) so I now refer to

it

> as 'that thing' when I don't want my dog to get excited over

> nothing...

>

> My dog also knew a lot of words. Saying " walk " in earshot always

get her attention as did saying outside. She was smart enough to know

that " walk " meant going out the front door and " outside " meant the

dog door to the fenced part of the yard.

>

> " What's that? " would get her listening for sounds and " where's mom "

would often get her to look for her. Interesting thing is, she

usually knew. If she was upstairs and my dog were on the sofa, she

would often look up toward the other side of the house where my

mother's room is as good as to say, " over there " . If she wasn't home,

my dog (her name was Neesa) would usually either not respond, sniff

around a little or actually walk around the house a little looking

for her.

>

>

>

>

> FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship,

support and acceptance. Everyone is valued.

>

> Don't forget, there are links to other FAM sites on the Links page

in the folder marked " Other FAM Sites. "

>

>

>

> --------------------------------------------------------------------

------------

> ! GROUPS LINKS

>

> a.. Visit your group " " on the web.

>

> b..

[Guest guest]

Cute! Did you ever read " The hundred and one Dalmatians " by Dodie ?

There you really got a dog's perspective, and how frustrating it was for

them when they tried to tell their humans that they knew where Cruella was

keeping their pups, but all the humans could make of their attempts to

communicate was " woof, woof " . :-(

That's a bit like how I felt when I was non-verbal. And I couldn't even

bark. :-)

Inger

Re: Re: ugh.. I am so sorry.. I feel

sooo BAD... ugh...

>

>

> In a message dated 1/1/2006 7:13:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

crna_kuna@y... writes:

>

> > My dog knew a lot of words.

>

> the word 'ball' (in whatever sentence, also not directed to him)

> immediately puts my dog in high alert phase ) so I now refer to

it

> as 'that thing' when I don't want my dog to get excited over

> nothing...

>

> My dog also knew a lot of words. Saying " walk " in earshot always

get her attention as did saying outside. She was smart enough to know

that " walk " meant going out the front door and " outside " meant the

dog door to the fenced part of the yard.

>

> " What's that? " would get her listening for sounds and " where's mom "

would often get her to look for her. Interesting thing is, she

usually knew. If she was upstairs and my dog were on the sofa, she

would often look up toward the other side of the house where my

mother's room is as good as to say, " over there " . If she wasn't home,

my dog (her name was Neesa) would usually either not respond, sniff

around a little or actually walk around the house a little looking

for her.

>

>

>

>

> FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship,

support and acceptance. Everyone is valued.

>

> Don't forget, there are links to other FAM sites on the Links page

in the folder marked " Other FAM Sites. "

>

>

>

> --------------------------------------------------------------------

------------

> ! GROUPS LINKS

>

> a.. Visit your group " " on the web.

>

> b..

[Guest guest]

That was one of my favorite books as a child. (Incidentally I

loved her books for adults as well, esp. I Capture The Castle). I

hate when people say dogs only understand your tone of voice.

The verbal thing is frustrating. I can write so much better than I

speak. I feel a block in my brain that won't allow the thoughts to

come out. And I hate the thoughts come to me too late when the

conversation has moved on. I'm better now but I've often been thought

of as a dumb brunnette!

> >

> > Who was it that pointed out that dogs understand quite a bit of

our

> language and some chimps can even learn to communicate in ours, but

> we don't understand much of theirs. Yet, we're supposed to be the

> most intelligent species.

> >

> > Inger

> >

> >

> >

> > Re: Re: ugh.. I am so sorry.. I feel

> sooo BAD... ugh...

> >

> >

> > In a message dated 1/1/2006 7:13:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

> crna_kuna@y... writes:

> >

> > > My dog knew a lot of words.

> >

> > the word 'ball' (in whatever sentence, also not directed to him)

> > immediately puts my dog in high alert phase ) so I now refer

to

> it

> > as 'that thing' when I don't want my dog to get excited over

> > nothing...

> >

> > My dog also knew a lot of words. Saying " walk " in earshot always

> get her attention as did saying outside. She was smart enough to

know

> that " walk " meant going out the front door and " outside " meant the

> dog door to the fenced part of the yard.

> >

> > " What's that? " would get her listening for sounds and " where's

mom "

> would often get her to look for her. Interesting thing is, she

> usually knew. If she was upstairs and my dog were on the sofa, she

> would often look up toward the other side of the house where my

> mother's room is as good as to say, " over there " . If she wasn't

home,

> my dog (her name was Neesa) would usually either not respond, sniff

> around a little or actually walk around the house a little looking

> for her.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship,

> support and acceptance. Everyone is valued.

> >

> > Don't forget, there are links to other FAM sites on the Links page

> in the folder marked " Other FAM Sites. "

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------------------------------------

--

> ------------

> > ! GROUPS LINKS

> >

> > a.. Visit your group " " on the web.

> >

> > b..

[Guest guest]

" I'm better now but I've often been thought of as a dumb brunnette! "

One of my friends whose a bit 'ditzy' (and I can be at times too :-

) ) is a brunnette - (as am I), has often remarked to me that when

they were handing out hair colours she was meant to be a ditzy

blonde, but got in the wrong que :-)

> > >

> > > Who was it that pointed out that dogs understand quite a bit of

> our

> > language and some chimps can even learn to communicate in ours,

but

> > we don't understand much of theirs. Yet, we're supposed to be the

> > most intelligent species.

> > >

> > > Inger

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Re: Re: ugh.. I am so sorry.. I feel

> > sooo BAD... ugh...

> > >

> > >

> > > In a message dated 1/1/2006 7:13:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

> > crna_kuna@y... writes:

> > >

> > > > My dog knew a lot of words.

> > >

> > > the word 'ball' (in whatever sentence, also not directed to

him)

> > > immediately puts my dog in high alert phase ) so I now

refer

> to

> > it

> > > as 'that thing' when I don't want my dog to get excited over

> > > nothing...

> > >

> > > My dog also knew a lot of words. Saying " walk " in earshot always

> > get her attention as did saying outside. She was smart enough to

> know

> > that " walk " meant going out the front door and " outside " meant the

> > dog door to the fenced part of the yard.

> > >

> > > " What's that? " would get her listening for sounds and " where's

> mom "

> > would often get her to look for her. Interesting thing is, she

> > usually knew. If she was upstairs and my dog were on the sofa, she

> > would often look up toward the other side of the house where my

> > mother's room is as good as to say, " over there " . If she wasn't

> home,

> > my dog (her name was Neesa) would usually either not respond,

sniff

> > around a little or actually walk around the house a little looking

> > for her.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship,

> > support and acceptance. Everyone is valued.

> > >

> > > Don't forget, there are links to other FAM sites on the Links

page

> > in the folder marked " Other FAM Sites. "

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------

--

> --

> > ------------

> > > ! GROUPS LINKS

> > >

> > > a.. Visit your group " " on the web.

> > >

> > > b..

[Guest guest]

-The movie and book of " Benji Off the Leash! " are similar in showing

how Benji is frustrated trying to get people to help him.

http://www.benji.com Mac loves that movie,we have seen it over 30

times lol.He just sits there looking at the TV and makes the cutest

faces.He enjoys weird things too,like he loves the Sam Peckinpah

movie, " Bring Me the Head of Alfredo

" ,and " Hellraiser:Bloodline " ,which has one scene i CANNOT watch

(twin security guards)but Mac just stares at it.i think the action

and noises seem fun to him,he does not undertand it is violence.But

if animals or people cry in the movies,he gets upset.He also enjoys

wrestling.At first he was scared of it,but i told him " the silly men

are playing Mr.Belly " (that's what i call it when Mac rolls around and

wants me to rub his tummy),and after that he just loved it.Mac also

likes the scene in the Al Pacino " Scarface " where he says " Say hello

to my leetle friend " and blows everyone away.i think that's because i

have imitated it so Mac finds the scene amusing.Mac gets growly

sometimes,and i have been holding him when he growls,and i say to

people,thrusting Mac outward, " Say hello to my leetle friend! " lol.But

usually he likes new people and gives kisses. Kajira

-- In , " mikecarrie01 "

<mikecarrie01@y...> wrote:

>

> That was one of my favorite books as a child. (Incidentally I

> loved her books for adults as well, esp. I Capture The Castle). I

> hate when people say dogs only understand your tone of voice.

>

> The verbal thing is frustrating. I can write so much better than I

> speak. I feel a block in my brain that won't allow the thoughts to

> come out. And I hate the thoughts come to me too late when the

> conversation has moved on. I'm better now but I've often been

thought

> of as a dumb brunnette!

>

>

> > >

> > > Who was it that pointed out that dogs understand quite a bit of

> our

> > language and some chimps can even learn to communicate in ours,

but

> > we don't understand much of theirs. Yet, we're supposed to be the

> > most intelligent species.

> > >

> > > Inger

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Re: Re: ugh.. I am so sorry.. I feel

> > sooo BAD... ugh...

> > >

> > >

> > > In a message dated 1/1/2006 7:13:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

> > crna_kuna@y... writes:

> > >

> > > > My dog knew a lot of words.

> > >

> > > the word 'ball' (in whatever sentence, also not directed to

him)

> > > immediately puts my dog in high alert phase ) so I now

refer

> to

> > it

> > > as 'that thing' when I don't want my dog to get excited over

> > > nothing...

> > >

> > > My dog also knew a lot of words. Saying " walk " in earshot always

> > get her attention as did saying outside. She was smart enough to

> know

> > that " walk " meant going out the front door and " outside " meant the

> > dog door to the fenced part of the yard.

> > >

> > > " What's that? " would get her listening for sounds and " where's

> mom "

> > would often get her to look for her. Interesting thing is, she

> > usually knew. If she was upstairs and my dog were on the sofa, she

> > would often look up toward the other side of the house where my

> > mother's room is as good as to say, " over there " . If she wasn't

> home,

> > my dog (her name was Neesa) would usually either not respond,

sniff

> > around a little or actually walk around the house a little looking

> > for her.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship,

> > support and acceptance. Everyone is valued.

> > >

> > > Don't forget, there are links to other FAM sites on the Links

page

> > in the folder marked " Other FAM Sites. "

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------

--

> --

> > ------------

> > > ! GROUPS LINKS

> > >

> > > a.. Visit your group " " on the web.

> > >

> > > b..

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/17/2006 11:15:55 AM Eastern Standard Time,

tamaratornado@... writes:

It was sad, too. I was eating fish while we were talking, didn't she

notice? why would she think beans were important protein -- I don't

even think she was strictly vegetarian...

If she's an O, she'll be coming to see you if she gets sick or as she gets

older. It's like your body just can't keep up anymore. Proteins from beans are

not the right kind for O diets. I eat pinto bean refried beans (home made)

but usually along with hamburger, onions, and salsa.

[Guest guest]

Here Here JC! I've had several revisions and the main thing that

keeps me coming home each time are my animals also. I've been

married 34 years myself but it's sure not my husband whom I worry

about while I'm away. You're right - he can fend for himself, but my

babies can't!

~~

>

>

> In a message dated 7/16/2006 7:43:55 AM Central Standard Time,

> marci800_351@... writes:

>

> >

>

>

> I had mine done in 1962. I have animals that keep me going. They

need me to

> care for them. I am lucky to have a husband that helps me. He

understands the

> health problems I have because of my back. There are days I feel

I can't

> make it one more day. I think about my animals and keep going. I

have 2 children

> and 3 grandchildren. We have been married almost 30 years. When I

get

> depressed I think about all the good things in my life. Humans

can care for their

> self. My animals need me. JC

>

[Guest guest]

This one looks like a good one for dogs. Has A - Z diseases & treatments.

http://www.amazon.com/Veterinarians-Guide-Natural-Remedies-Dogs/dp/0609803727/re\

f=sr_1_2?s=books & ie=UTF8 & qid=1283885082 & sr=1-2#reader_0609803727

[Guest guest]

There is also this one and you can call and consult too !!

http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/index.html

 

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

________________________________

From: KathyB <calicocat477@...>

Sent: Tue, September 7, 2010 3:32:42 PM

Subject: [] Animals

 

This one looks like a good one for dogs. Has A - Z diseases & treatments.

http://www.amazon.com/Veterinarians-Guide-Natural-Remedies-Dogs/dp/0609803727/re\

f=sr_1_2?s=books & ie=UTF8 & qid=1283885082 & sr=1-2#reader_0609803727