Investigation PROCESS [was: Re: AirCleanerUpdate]

[Guest guest]

I totally agree but not everyone switched to WDB. and despite the switch the

conversation continues to be limited to mold. And buildings that make us sick

are too often assumed to have mold problems.

I prefer WDB because it helps to remove the unfounded assumption of mold, mold,

and only mold.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

(fm my Blackberry)

[] Investigation PROCESS [was: Re: AirCleanerUpdate]

lol's, I dont know but holy cow, I do know one thing, I just got it soaked into

my brain to remember to use the WDB term and now we are going to change it? it's

just to much, I dont know about anyone else brain disfunctions but I really am a

one tract mind now and I dont deal with change very well, my brain fights with

me on that.

and I have a hard enough time makeing myself happy let alone trying to make sure

someone else is happy.

why do we have to keep changeing terms when it's hard enough to get use to

useing a certain term in the first place?

we are not a bunch of scientests here, I think thats another group.

I'm starting to fell like to much pressure is put on us and most of us have

plenty to deal with the way it is.

[Guest guest]

My building had water damage, sewer backup both from the hurricanes The septic

falied, broke, collapsed whole lot of bacteria........................... and

I cannot seem to get away from

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

________________________________

From: Carl Grimes <grimes@...>

Sick Buildings < >

Sent: Thu, January 27, 2011 7:47:48 PM

Subject: Re: [] Investigation PROCESS [was: Re: AirCleanerUpdate]

I totally agree but not everyone switched to WDB. and despite the switch the

conversation continues to be limited to mold. And buildings that make us sick

are too often assumed to have mold problems.

I prefer WDB because it helps to remove the unfounded assumption of mold, mold,

and only mold.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

(fm my Blackberry)

of this message have been removed]

[Guest guest]

Mayleen: with sewage back up you most likely were exposed to a combination of

sewer gases, e.g. hydrogen sulfide, bacteria (Gram negative and positive) and

fungi. Hydrogen sulfide has the odor of rotten eggs. It is a mitochondrial

poison, severe neurotoxin, and acts as an acid scarring the eyes and lungs. Now

add the bacteria and fungi along with their by-products, No wonder you are ill.

This is why we must talk about the entire environment to which each person was

exposed. I have a case in the Sacramento area in which a family of three had a

similar exposure (not hurricanes) but ruptured water pipes, rain intrusion and

sewage back up. She is using a cane to walk and a wheel chair when she is too

tired to walk. The husband and daughter are starting to show the same symptoms

of severe muscle wasting. As the data comes in on her I will share with the

group. We are awaiting the results of mitochondrial testing to determine the

nature of her problem.

Re: [] Investigation PROCESS [was: Re: AirCleanerUpdate]

My building had water damage, sewer backup both from the hurricanes The septic

falied, broke, collapsed whole lot of bacteria........................... and

I cannot seem to get away from

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

[Guest guest]

I must say, I had to ask what a WDB was when I first got here, and Barb

graciously responded. It seems like that's what the focus is...my two cents (two

dollars, with inflation!).

[Guest guest]

Thank you Dr Thrasher, That is why I understand what you post because of the

severity of what was my home. I saw Dr's for 2 years complaining of chest pain

the conditions I had mentioned more than once. their answers it won't make you

sick. What a load of crap. Literally. LOL I cannot seem to escape it either

it follows me like the plague.

Can a neurologist do this testing for me? mitochondrial testing I am still

walking but the last place I was in I went down to a size 4. Right now I have a

lung infection, sinus infection. We both did. He is better. I am in the gutter

still.

Please do keep posting about the case you have. Thank you very much! What are

the symptoms of muscle waisting ?

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

________________________________

From: " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

Sent: Thu, January 27, 2011 11:02:42 PM

Subject: Re: [] Investigation PROCESS [was: Re: AirCleanerUpdate]

Mayleen: with sewage back up you most likely were exposed to a combination of

sewer gases, e.g. hydrogen sulfide, bacteria (Gram negative and positive) and

fungi. Hydrogen sulfide has the odor of rotten eggs. It is a mitochondrial

poison, severe neurotoxin, and acts as an acid scarring the eyes and lungs. Now

add the bacteria and fungi along with their by-products, No wonder you are ill.

This is why we must talk about the entire environment to which each person was

exposed. I have a case in the Sacramento area in which a family of three had a

similar exposure (not hurricanes) but ruptured water pipes, rain intrusion and

sewage back up. She is using a cane to walk and a wheel chair when she is too

tired to walk. The husband and daughter are starting to show the same symptoms

of severe muscle wasting. As the data comes in on her I will share with the

group. We are awaiting the results of mitochondrial testing to determine the

nature of her problem.

[Guest guest]

Flaccid muscles, no tone. soft and mushy feeling. Stand on your toes and have

someone palpate you gastrocnemius (calf muscles). They should be solid as a rock

Difficulty walking. this condition can be apparent in all skeletal muscles of

the body. extend the fingers of the hand and maintain them as such. Have

someone squeeze the fingers together. You should have resistance. The lady I

spoke about had soft mushy calf muscles, biceps and forearm muscles. She has no

resistance when her fingers were squeezed.

Re: [] Investigation PROCESS [was: Re: AirCleanerUpdate]

Mayleen: with sewage back up you most likely were exposed to a combination of

sewer gases, e.g. hydrogen sulfide, bacteria (Gram negative and positive) and

fungi. Hydrogen sulfide has the odor of rotten eggs. It is a mitochondrial

poison, severe neurotoxin, and acts as an acid scarring the eyes and lungs.

Now

add the bacteria and fungi along with their by-products, No wonder you are

ill.

This is why we must talk about the entire environment to which each person was

exposed. I have a case in the Sacramento area in which a family of three had a

similar exposure (not hurricanes) but ruptured water pipes, rain intrusion and

sewage back up. She is using a cane to walk and a wheel chair when she is too

tired to walk. The husband and daughter are starting to show the same symptoms

of severe muscle wasting. As the data comes in on her I will share with the

group. We are awaiting the results of mitochondrial testing to determine the

nature of her problem.

[Guest guest]

I forgot to answer you question regarding testing of mitochondria. The testing

must be done by one of the 6 mitochondria hospital associated institutes. I

have done work at the Buffalo Mitochondria Institute and the U. of California

Institute at Sand Diego. The procedure requires the surgical removal of a piece

of skeletal muscle and some connective (two separate specimens). The test must

be done at the mitochondrial institutes and following their procedures with

respect to handling of the specimens. The testing is expensive and it is

usually done to test for inherited mitochondrial DNA mutations. However, the

testing can be performed for chemically induced mutations in children and

adults. It is not simple and it takes up to 2-3 months to have all of the

testing competed. For your information the U.S. San Diego web site is below.

All you have to do is a google search for Mitochondrial Disease Research

Institutes. There approximately six in the U.S.

http://health.ucsd.edu/specialties/neuro/mmd/

[] Investigation PROCESS [was: Re: AirCleanerUpdate]

for a long time after exposure I would trip alot over my own feet,

it was like the muscles in my legs weren't flexing them and they I had to put

effort into every step or the toe area wouldn't come back upright for the next

step and I'd fall.

I dont know if I explained that very well. alot of weakness and wobbleing in

my legs.

>

> Flaccid muscles, no tone. soft and mushy feeling. Stand on your toes and

have someone palpate you gastrocnemius (calf muscles). They should be solid as a

rock Difficulty walking. this condition can be apparent in all skeletal muscles

of the body. extend the fingers of the hand and maintain them as such. Have

someone squeeze the fingers together. You should have resistance. The lady I

spoke about had soft mushy calf muscles, biceps and forearm muscles. She has no

resistance when her fingers were squeezed.

[Guest guest]

How about SBB - Sick building biocontaminants or biotoxins (is biotoxins a

word?).

---From: osisposis



filth is another word, but it might tend to make new comers think dirt. maybe

sick building contaminants? SBC, I dont know. it just needs to be short or

abreveated , something simple and something that well catch on.

[Guest guest]

no

In a message dated 1/28/2011 11:36:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

apami@... writes:

How about SBB - Sick building biocontaminants or biotoxins (is biotoxins a

word?).

---From: osisposis

_ _ (mailto: )



filth is another word, but it might tend to make new comers think dirt.

maybe sick building contaminants? SBC, I dont know. it just needs to be short

or abreveated , something simple and something that well catch on.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Guest guest]

I agree with you 100% Barb. I mean, all these years our terminology was never an

issue. Seems like we are going around in circles once again~ D

> >

> > Jack is right on, in my opinion.

> >

> > Otherwise, we can create our own language and vocabulary and

> > we will all know what we are talking about and understand what

> > we mean.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Barb and others,

I'm not trying to change the world or our group. But doesn't it

make sense to use words accurately so everybody understands

the same thing?

Do we use " infection " instead of " neurotoxicity " because it is

shorter and easier to use? I hope not because the two are totally

different.

If we use infection instead of neurotoxicity then we and others will

try to identify and treat infection and the neurotoxicity will continue

unabated. We will go to our doctor and tell him we have an

infection and he will laugh because we don't know the difference.

My point is, again, we can make up our own words and what they

mean but nobody, especially newcomers to this group, we be

able to get help. We won't even be able to communicate with

each other because we all use our own meaning.

As for continuing to use mold because it's easier, consider how

often those who know it is more than mold still focus only on

indentifying and treating mold. Especially TESTING for mold

when the simplistic " tests " being discussed have little to no value.

We can't say " test for mold " and mean " test for mold and bacteria

and mycotoxins and enzymes and MVOCs and actinomycetes,

and glucans and egosterols. " Each has its own procedures and

processes with the appropriate time and location.

The more we know and the more accurately we communicate the

better the chance of getting help and helping others.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

I think we make a statement on group home page and in group intro sheet to new

members that in water damaged buildings includes all the things it includes,

along w link to info on that, and state that many people will use the word

'mold', it is not limited to that because we can talk about this until the end

of time but people are just not going to use letter abreviations instead of the

word mold bec we type too much and it takes more time, put cap lock on and then

half the time the letters are not in the right order, WBD or if they are,

inevitably people will ask what does that mean, which is more work, EVEN people

who know that other things other than mold are present in WDB. Cant get people

to trim their posts here and that entails: 1.) remembering to do it, and 2.)

take the two seconds it takes to do it. Besides it doesn't fit in many ways,

i.e. testing for 'mold', i.e. testing for WDB doesn't work, testing for 'mold,

etc' does. I think most people here know that mold isn't the

whole story but

>

> Jack is right on, in my opinion.

>

> Otherwise, we can create our own language and vocabulary and

> we will all know what we are talking about and understand what

> we mean.

>

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[Guest guest]

Thanks Carl. A good example are some cases I have of WDB from sewage pipe

leaks. Notice, I said sewage pipes. This automatically implies fungi,

bacteria, endotoxins and hydrogen sulfide as well as other contaminants found in

sewage.

Re: [] Investigation PROCESS [was: Re: AirCleanerUpdate]

Barb and others,

I'm not trying to change the world or our group. But doesn't it

make sense to use words accurately so everybody understands

the same thing?

Do we use " infection " instead of " neurotoxicity " because it is

shorter and easier to use? I hope not because the two are totally

different.

If we use infection instead of neurotoxicity then we and others will

try to identify and treat infection and the neurotoxicity will continue

unabated. We will go to our doctor and tell him we have an

infection and he will laugh because we don't know the difference.

My point is, again, we can make up our own words and what they

mean but nobody, especially newcomers to this group, we be

able to get help. We won't even be able to communicate with

each other because we all use our own meaning.

As for continuing to use mold because it's easier, consider how

often those who know it is more than mold still focus only on

indentifying and treating mold. Especially TESTING for mold

when the simplistic " tests " being discussed have little to no value.

We can't say " test for mold " and mean " test for mold and bacteria

and mycotoxins and enzymes and MVOCs and actinomycetes,

and glucans and egosterols. " Each has its own procedures and

processes with the appropriate time and location.

The more we know and the more accurately we communicate the

better the chance of getting help and helping others.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

[Guest guest]

All I know is I got sick from mold yes the mold has bacteria and other

things in and from it. Butt without the mold it wouldn't be there

Janet

In a message dated 1/30/2011 12:24:45 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

grimes@... writes:

Barb and others,

I'm not trying to change the world or our group. But doesn't it

make sense to use words accurately so everybody understands

the same thing?

Do we use " infection " instead of " neurotoxicity " because it is

shorter and easier to use? I hope not because the

[Guest guest]

yes it came from a waterfall leak into the basement I worked. Mold four

feet up the walls and when it would rain we waded through the water

Janet

In a message dated 1/30/2011 3:21:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

grimes@... writes:

Janet,

Without the moisture neither the mold nor the bacteria would be

there. The growth of mold does not cause the growth of bacteria.

It is the moisture. Mold, bacteria and all the other " stuff " is a result

of the moisture. In fact, the bacteria is often at higher levels than

the mold.

There is the microbial (mold, bacteria, etc) growth and there are

the conditions which support the microbial growth. Both have to

be addressed.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

[Guest guest]

One again an assumption that the mold is the cause is not necessarily true.

There is sufficient information in the literature and as reviewed by WHO:

Synergism exists between the molds and bacteria that augments the toxicity of

both. So which comes first the horse or the cart? The mold and the bacteria

grow together. As a matter of fact the bacteria grow faster than the mold.

Re: [] Investigation PROCESS [was: Re: AirCleanerUpdate]

All I know is I got sick from mold yes the mold has bacteria and other

things in and from it. Butt without the mold it wouldn't be there

Janet

[Guest guest]

Janet,

Without the moisture neither the mold nor the bacteria would be

there. The growth of mold does not cause the growth of bacteria.

It is the moisture. Mold, bacteria and all the other " stuff " is a result

of the moisture. In fact, the bacteria is often at higher levels than

the mold.

There is the microbial (mold, bacteria, etc) growth and there are

the conditions which support the microbial growth. Both have to

be addressed.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

All I know is I got sick from mold yes the mold has bacteria and other

things in and from it. Butt without the mold it wouldn't be there

Janet

In a message dated 1/30/2011 12:24:45 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

grimes@... writes:

Barb and others,

I'm not trying to change the world or our group. But doesn't it

make sense to use words accurately so everybody understands

the same thing?

Do we use " infection " instead of " neurotoxicity " because it is

shorter and easier to use? I hope not because the

----------

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If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.

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[Guest guest]

Appreciate these thoughts Carl.

ap

---In

Carl E. Grimes wrote---

?

Barb and others,

I'm not trying to change the world or our group. But doesn't it

make sense to use words accurately so everybody understands

the same thing?

[Guest guest]

It's true. I belong to several groups and notice they all use different

abbreviations. When I first joined the first posts I read made my

head swim with all the WDB's and other abbreviations I had no idea what were.

But I tell ya, after reading just a few posts I was able to figure them out.

CIRS and TE took longer but eventually someone spelled it out and I got that

too, ha. It wasn't really that big of a deal. What took longer was learning

that all kinds of biofilm/microbial growth/biocontaminants don't just affect

other people, it's probably affecting me too, and not just mold. The thing is,

it's the mold that we can smell, not necessarily the other stuff, and it is very

freaky to smell mold in our condition cause we know what's gonna happen. It

freaks us out!!!

anita

----------------------------------

From: Carl E. Grimes

....But if we take that private language to those outside of this group

they won't know what we are talking about and rightly criticize us

for not being aware of anything beyond ourselves. (Ironically, that

is their error also).

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC