VaporBarrier/Ventilation

[Guest guest]

Hi Carl/Jeff/-

 

Boy you guys bring ups some great points and thank you so much for taking the

time to respond.  Will try and reduce this to one posting as to avoid clogging

up the message board. Let me just throw some facts out to answer the collective

questions:

 

I personal tolerance tested/approved all products used

Canadian made windows-all fir wood

Interior was bare fir before coating

Exterior is aluminum clad

Interior window trim is also fir wood

Interior window and trim wood stained/clearcoated then sat for 2

years offgassing before install

All 4 edges on each sash (all 24 sashes) were closed, never opened to offgas. (I

know, none of us thought about this important fact. Like duh)

 

Even after 2 years, primary voc suspected culprit is coating products

Smell/my reaction same whether windows open or closed

Same coatings used on all parts of the windows including interior of windows,

sash edges and also the wall trim

Grace Vycor membrane and Dupont Flexwrap sill wraps must also be considered

potential culprits

Although less than US made windows, must also consider the wood preservatives

Used Dow Pro Window and Door foam

Used Nashua 422 foil tape - 2xfoil taped jams for vapor barrier    

 

VOC levels confirmed with voc monitor testing

Even a healthy person walks in my house and asks if I just painted something,

says smells like paint or stain but as we know, this might be masking a

secondary problem

Monitor type did not identify specific agents but did measure the fluctuating

levels of voc's in my house

Did 10 day bake out/air out using combo of furnace and electric baseboards,

which reduced voc's significantly but still present in measurable levels

All last fall while working around the rain, opened windows everyday and was

really lucky that we had a sunny/hot extended summer 

Extended summer allowed direct sun/heat on open reachable sash edges

 

See it's the whole sash edge thing that really makes this much more

complicated.  If I could just open the windows and manage the airflow, that's

the ideal.  But that's not the situation I have because of the sash edges.

It's one of these deals that if I don't open the windows, I'm screwed. Or if I

do open the windows, I'm screwed.  There you have it.

 

But regardless, I just kept doing the window opening and closing throughout last

fall till it got too cold.  Am an attached townhouse w/two primary airways that

don't involve the windows so increased that

non-contaminated airflow using oscillating fans. Kept opening all the sashes and

combined with the hot air temp, they all had a good combined sun/air temp baking

for around 10-12 weeks or so.

 

This house is a retrofit thus I have both electric baseboard and the forced air

furnace is in the attic.  The house is on a slab, no basement.  I do not run the

a/c, just the heat.  But because our winters are so long, the heat runs from

Sept/Oct through May/June.  IAQ guy hooked me up w/local HVAC who came in and

did some duct testing (I have flexible ducts) and some other stuff so we could

start exploring options. His final options were everything from heavy duty

construction type stuff all the way down to simply adding filtration to the

furnace. But everything that may utilize my ductwork necessitates that I first

seal the ducts.  Rec'd his recommendations late October, never a good time for

an MCS person to be doing anything that involves the interior of their home.  So

whatever I do, is going to have to wait till this spring. So threw in

some SafeHomeDuos in the furnace and started the search for portable air

cleaners to try

and get me through till spring. 

 

As far as vapor barrier, anything that involves normal plastic sheeting is

bothersome for me.  Two commonly used barriers used by MCSers are DennyFoil and

TuTuff and I do well w/both.  For this application, TT is more the way to go. 

But it is a white membrane thus not a see through product so if I do this, I

like your suggestion Carl about using a moisture meter.  I could probably figure

out a way to put the sensor inside the barrier and the monitor outside so I can

see it.  It is also a somewhat heavy product, certainly heavier than the DFoil.

 

So obviously the next consideration was the tape use to put/hold up the TT.  And

making sure it is strong enough to hold up the weight of the TT yet give a good

seal.  Obviously finding a tape I can tolerate is mission #1, durability is

mission #2 but also of consideration is the tape potentially ruining my walls. I

asked one of the consultants about a painters tape or low residue tape and she

did give me two brand low voc tapes to check out.  But user reviews on both

tapes indicate they don't stick very well and like Jeff stated, gotta get a good

seal. And considering this could be hanging for quite some time, need something

that sticks.  Perhaps you guys know of some tapes I should consider?

 

I do have hangable bags..ones zeolite, the other is activated charcoal.  I also

have a canister of activated charcoal so easy enough to make up a bunch of

hangable breathable cloth pouches. I'll also see if maybe I can hang cans of

DampRid so they are elevated.  Great idea Jeff, didn't think of that. Regardless

of what I do, will make up some charcoal bags anyway and hang them all over the

window in my bedroom as I really need to make that room as close to my oasis as

it use to be.    

 

But as you can tell, I reallllyyyy don't want to do a vapor barrier.  I  see as

it as a course of last resort after trying everything else. I just am convinced

that there is some other viable option that can be tried.  So perhaps I can take

advantage of your expertise and take this in another direction.  Another

potential option is installing something like an air exchanger. But here we go

again with all the factors to be considered.  If I install an air exchanger,

need to consider what it's made of, particularly the part that's involved in

drawing outside air back into the house.  And due to the challenging air quality

in my neighborhood (dryer sheets, fireplaces, gasoline, adhesive/paint/stain

exhaust from local furniture plant), I would also need to find some type of

tolerated filtration for the incoming air.  So I'm basically back to the whole

air cleaner thing again. Got out my two Bower books HH and HH Building and

he does

cite a specific model that was made of mostly metal so this might be a place

for me to start researching air exchangers.

 

But here's my real question...can I go in the direction of a one way  air

removal device, sorta like an giant bathroom fan?   If so, this eliminates the

whole incoming air component.  Some type of bathroom fan like thing that would

simply suck the air out of my house and not put any back in. If something like

this does exist, could it run through my flexible ducting or would I have to

install separate ducting to each space that I am trying to ventilate?   Or

because of the way airflow works, would this screw up something technical

like static air or other stuff that the cold air returns need for the furnace to

operate?    

 

Can I also ask your expertise on duct sealing?  The HVAC guy is

Aeroseal installer and although gasping at the MSDS, kept an open mind and

requested a sample.  The sample I received is in a 3 month solid state and is

such a toxin to my body that I left it outside.  No need to do the sleep test

with that one, for sure...lol...  Rats cause the idea of going with an

interior blown sealant seems much more effective than trying to accomplish the

same w/visual manual exterior sealing using a water based mastic.  Do you

guys know of any duct sealers I should consider? 

 

Thank you for putting up with my hammering of questions.  As you can tell, I am

just beside myself with this whole thing and still very much struggling with the

chemical dementia. So hope that I am making sense here. Can't wait to get some

uncontaminated fresh air in here and although these portable air cleaners are

helping immensely, these are not the ideal long term solution for the

problem.  My goal is to be informed and educated thus ready to hop on whatever

needs to be done to this house starting in the spring.  Thank you so much for

your input. 

 

Please note that I have no financial or vested interest in any person, place,

object or anything else mentioned in this posting.

 

Thanks

Kathy

 

--------------------------------------

Posted by: " Carl E. Grimes " grimes@...   

(snip) Kathy, The other issue is if the windows are enclosed how will they out-

gass?  If condensation isn't visible you might get a digital humidity meter like

from Radio Shack and put behind the plastic. Watch it and if it never goes above

50-60% you should be okay. Carl Grimes (snip)

 

Posted by: " jeff@... " jeff@...    

(snip) Kathy, But if you can make the plastic seal at the window truly airtight,

there should not be much moisture from the house getting into the trapped-air

space.  So making the plastic seal airtight is the challenge. I would also put a

container of DampRid (calcium chloride drying agent) inside the vapor barrier,

along with a porous-lined bag of activated charcoal (to take up some of the

odor). The DampRid and charcoal should be at the top where the warm air

rises (snip)

 

Posted by: " " scottarmour@...   scottarmour@...

(snip) What windows do you have, yo say they are " fir " , are they vinyl wrapped?

What exactly leads you to conclude they are " offgassing voc's " ?  The companies

that sell do-it-yourself window weatherization kits know this and sell millions

of them to help keep out cold in winter.  I assume you are having a " reaction "

to something you think is a VOC, and the windows are the assumed culprit.  If

you put plastic over a window and you do happen to see moisture condense on the

interior side, you better ask why? There should be no vapor in the space between

the window and the plastic cover. If there is, it has to come from somewhere,

and that somewhere is likely the walls via the window jamb/casing assembly. And

that would not be good! (snip)

[Guest guest]

IQ has a duct to force air out or in ................only you had a problem with

the IQ I belove..

http://www.allergybuyersclub.com/iqair-healthpro-plus-safe-room-air-purifiers.ht\

ml?itemId=332

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

________________________________

From: " baahstun@... " <baahstun@...>

Sick Buildings < >

Sent: Mon, January 31, 2011 9:30:48 PM

Subject: [] VaporBarrier/Ventilation

Hi Carl/Jeff/-

Boy you guys bring ups some great points and thank you so much for taking the

time to respond. Will try and reduce this to one posting as to avoid clogging

up the message board. Let me just throw some facts out to answer the collective

questions:

I personal tolerance tested/approved all products used

Canadian made windows-all fir wood

Interior was bare fir before coating

Exterior is aluminum clad

Interior window trim is also fir wood

Interior window and trim wood stained/clearcoated then sat for 2

years offgassing before install

All 4 edges on each sash (all 24 sashes) were closed, never opened to offgas. (I

know, none of us thought about this important fact. Like duh)

Even after 2 years, primary voc suspected culprit is coating products

Smell/my reaction same whether windows open or closed

Same coatings used on all parts of the windows including interior of windows,

sash edges and also the wall trim

Grace Vycor membrane and Dupont Flexwrap sill wraps must also be considered

potential culprits

Although less than US made windows, must also consider the wood preservatives

Used Dow Pro Window and Door foam

Used Nashua 422 foil tape - 2xfoil taped jams for vapor barrier

VOC levels confirmed with voc monitor testing

Even a healthy person walks in my house and asks if I just painted

[Guest guest]

one topic answer:

If you " suck the bad air out " something must replace it! And that will always be

outside air (or combustion exhaust air from gas fired appliances like water

tank, etc.).

SOOooo, you must decide how clean you need the replacement air, and then find

the device or method to clean it. Or, you simply reclean the indoor air, with as

little infiltration and replacement as possible , but CO2 will still build up,

and filtration this way is expensive and requires very well designed

ventilation.

> Hi Carl/Jeff/-

>  

> Boy you guys bring ups some great points and thank you so much for taking the

time to respond.  Will try and reduce this to one posting as to avoid clogging

up the message board. Let me just throw some facts out to answer the collective

questions:

[Guest guest]

Hi -

Ok, so the air does need to be replaced. I wasn't sure if that's how it works

with a house so thanks for confirming it.

But let me ask a really dumb question...how come it's ok that a bathroom fan is

a one way sucks the air out only? Is it cause it's in a smaller space and only

runs for short periods of time?

See, I keep revolving back to the same place, which is having to deal with some

type of filtered air whether incoming on an exchanger or just staying w/the

portable air cleaners that I have now.

Think it's time for me to start researching exchangers to see what type of

filtering media they commonly use. If I end up back with carbon, just gonna

scream.

Kathy

------------------------------------------

>one topic answer:

> If you " suck the bad air out " something must replace it! And that will always

be outside air (or combustion exhaust air from gas fired appliances like water

tank, etc.). SOOooo, you must decide how clean you need the replacement air,

and then find the device or method to clean it. Or, you simply reclean the

indoor air, with as little infiltration and replacement as possible , but CO2

will still build up, and filtration this way is expensive and requires very well

designed ventilation.