Re:Dr. Thrasher -- saving a bulk carpeting sample from classroom? --

[Guest guest]

Dear Crazy one: I will answer each of you questions one at a time. No you are

not crazy. Being concerned regarding the health of your child puts at the top

of my list. As Carl Grimes has stated on this forum: Air testing is not

reliable with respect to determining if there is an indoor air quality problem.

The testing must also include bulk samples, tap lifts, dust samples, and testing

of wall cavities (attics, sub surface, rooms).

Who in the H- -ll is the so called toxicologist who did the air sampling? What

is his/her qualifications to be making health statements? Did he/she compare

species indoors vs outdoors? These are just a few of the questions I have.

Carl, do you have any comments?

Water damage, bad odors and Mushroom-Like growth certainly indicates to me that

there is a potential problem with microbial growth (molds and bacteria). After

all, mushrooms are molds.

1. Some bacteria can be more odiferous than others. For example, both aerobic

and anaerobic iron/sulfur reducing bacteria can produce hydrogen sulfide (rotten

egg odor). Also, molds, including mushroom, cause of decaying of woods, paper,

building materials, etc. The process can give rise to odors. The

Actinobacteria do produce VOCs that have an odor. For example, Actinobacteria

produce Geosmin, which has a strong earthy smell, like soil right after a fresh

rain. Your daughter's headache could be resulting from irritation of the

Trigeminal nerves and/or inflammation of some sort. Most doctors will just

shrug the headaches off.

2. I would advise you to obtain any and all bulk samples that you could obtain,

particularly water damaged carpeting. Dr. Shoemaker is well aware of the

bio-complexity of WDB. If you obtain carpeting samples I suggest that you have

at least an ERMI test performed. In addition, you should culture for molds and

bacteria. Molds should be done at 37 and 25 degrees centigrade (some molds

optimum growth is at 37 C). Also, bacteria should be cultured at 55 and 37

degrees C. Certain bacteria, particularly the Actinobacteria) are thermophilic

(55 C). The thermophilic are associated with respiratory problems, e.g.

Hypoersensivity pneumonitis. I would do this before I would pay for any

cleaning.

3. I am not certain that paying for an industrial cleaning will resolve the

problem The source of the problem (water intrusion) must be determined and

correct before cleaning. Also, the cleaning, if not done correctly, could

spread the mold and bacterial spores to other areas.

4. Hiring an IH who is aware of the problems is probably the best thing to do.

You need to culture for bacteria as well as look for other sources of IAQ

problems along with identifying the species of molds indoors vs outdoors.

Jack-Dwayne: Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Off: 916-745-4703

Cell: 575-937-1150

L. Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

916-745-4703 - Off

775-309-3994 - Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this message

(and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly prohibited

and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this message has been

served, please destroy the original message contents. If you have received this

message in error, please reply immediately to advise the sender of the

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Thank you in advance for your compliance.

[Guest guest]

--- In , " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

wrote:

>

> Dear Crazy one: I will answer each of you questions one at a time. No you

are not crazy. Being concerned regarding the health of your child puts at the

top of my list. As Carl Grimes has stated on this forum: Air testing is not

reliable with respect to determining if there is an indoor air quality problem.

The testing must also include bulk samples, tap lifts, dust samples, and testing

of wall cavities (attics, sub surface, rooms).

> Who in the H- -ll is the so called toxicologist who did the air sampling?

What is his/her qualifications to be making health statements? Did he/she

compare species indoors vs outdoors? These are just a few of the questions I

have. Carl, do you have any comments?

>

>

_______

1. THe classroom had a distinctive " dirty shoe " smell.

2. I spoke to a few IH guys, and one actually proposed that he would rather

work from a list of what Shoemaker wants (I know that would at least be an ERMI)

to start out with, and actually KNOWS and respects Shoemaker's work -- new and

fresh, huh?

3. The firm is a local one that has a reputation for writing " nice " reports

tailored to the clients particular needs. There was NO bulk sampling, and they

did NOT examine the building as a whole system

[Guest guest]

Are the teachers concerned, they might provide some assistance in making sure a

qualified independent indoor environmental professional provides second opinion

and/or testing. OSHA does require that an employer provide a safe workplace, so

this might be a start. Has the ventilation been evaluated in the school. Many

schools do not have the required make-up are necessary to satisfy minimal

building code requirements and ASHRAE standards. Also, if they do have make-up

air, the dampers are often closed to conserve energy. Carbon dioxide should be

monitored during occupancy - mid afternoon is when I usually find the highest

readings. I would also consider testing for pet dander, as students can

transport this into the classroom on clothing.

Just another thought, the topside of ceiling tiles is a good place to get dust

samples. Most schools have open plenum return systems.

Connie Morbach, M.S., CHMM, CIE

> 1. THe classroom had a distinctive " dirty shoe " smell.

>

> 2. I spoke to a few IH guys, and one actually proposed that he would rather

work from a list of what Shoemaker wants (I know that would at least be an ERMI)

to start out with, and actually KNOWS and respects Shoemaker's work -- new and

fresh, huh?

>

> 3. The firm is a local one that has a reputation for writing " nice " reports

tailored to the clients particular needs. There was NO bulk sampling, and they

did NOT examine the building as a whole system

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Are the teachers concerned, they might provide some assistance in making sure

a qualified independent indoor environmental professional provides second

opinion and/or testing. OSHA does require that an employer provide a safe

workplace, so this might be a start.

______________

I am the only one concerned. I spoke to several parents, and some of them

tattled on me! I told each person something specific, so I kind of can tell who

tattled. One teacher in a different building is a little concerned, but that

isn't going to help where mine are symptomatic.

The " environmental scientist " did not examine the HVAC system at all. Where

there was obvious/visible water damage and large visible fungal growth in the

attic spaces (where the HVAC units are housed) in the wing of the strongest

odors and the most symptomatic child, no tape lifts were done, so, obviously

there is no mold....right?

[Guest guest]

This new publication from the World Health Organization provides good

information on what moisture is a problem and how it should be addressed. Maybe

this will help

http://www.euro.who.int/document/E92645.pdfp.

Does the school have a copy of EPA's Tools for Schools Program?

Connie Morbach, M.S., CHMM, CIE

Sanit-Air.com

________________________________

From: on behalf of jolly_ave

Sent: Sat 3/20/2010 10:17 AM

Subject: [] Re:Dr. Thrasher -- saving a bulk carpeting sample from

classroom? --

I am the only one concerned. I spoke to several parents, and some of them

tattled on me! I told each person something specific, so I kind of can tell who

tattled. One teacher in a different building is a little concerned, but that

isn't going to help where mine are symptomatic.

The " environmental scientist " did not examine the HVAC system at all. Where

there was obvious/visible water damage and large visible fungal growth in the

attic spaces (where the HVAC units are housed) in the wing of the strongest

odors and the most symptomatic child, no tape lifts were done, so, obviously

there is no mold....right?

[Guest guest]

>

> This new publication from the World Health Organization provides good

information on what moisture is a problem and how it should be addressed. Maybe

this will help

>

> http://www.euro.who.int/document/E92645.pdfp.

>

> Does the school have a copy of EPA's Tools for Schools Program?

>

> Connie Morbach, M.S., CHMM, CIE

>

Thanks, Connie.

I emailed some links to some staff members, but haven't given them any books. I

do have a hardcopy of the EPA book - " Mold Remediation in Schools and Commercial

Buildings. "

I did find this document also.

http://www.euro.who.int/document/HOH/damp_mould_brochure.pdf

Though they are working with me on chemicals, they just won't even hear me when

it comes to microbes, dust reduction, odor reduction, or allergens.

[Guest guest]

The EPA IAQ Tools for Schools program is a comprehensive resource to help

schools identify and correct indoor air quality problems. It provides a variety

of products, materials, and tools at no cost to help schools implement an indoor

air quality management program. In addition to the IAQ Tools for Schools Action

Kit, specialized fact sheets, brochures, and software programs are available to

provide in-depth information on environmental topics.

EPA offers various incentives and awards for schools that implement the program.

The program kit can be ordered at http://www.epa.gov/iaq/schools/index.html

Connie Morbach M.S., CHMM, CIE

Sanit-Air, Inc.

cleanlinest.wordpress.com

> >

> > This new publication from the World Health Organization provides good

information on what moisture is a problem and how it should be addressed. Maybe

this will help

> >

> > http://www.euro.who.int/document/E92645.pdfp.

> >

> > Does the school have a copy of EPA's Tools for Schools Program?

> >

> > Connie Morbach, M.S., CHMM, CIE

> >

> Thanks, Connie.

>

> I emailed some links to some staff members, but haven't given them any books.

I do have a hardcopy of the EPA book - " Mold Remediation in Schools and

Commercial Buildings. "

>

> I did find this document also.

> http://www.euro.who.int/document/HOH/damp_mould_brochure.pdf

>

> Though they are working with me on chemicals, they just won't even hear me

when it comes to microbes, dust reduction, odor reduction, or allergens.

>

[Guest guest]

>

> The EPA IAQ Tools for Schools program is a comprehensive resource to help

schools identify and correct indoor air quality problems. It provides a variety

of products,

_______________

___The work is supposed to be done in the time from April 1-11. If the dinky

little air purifier is running the whole time, it will help some, but it is a

mere HEPA filter, which won't be able to capture endotoxins, mycotoxins, or very

many if any particles under .3 microns.

The doctor has written a letter urging extreme caution while doing the work, but

I don't know how much compliance I will get from them.

[Guest guest]

This is all true, e.g. EPA programs, WHO, etc. However, it has been my

experience that once the management of the school consults with the legal staff

(attorneys) then denial sets in and the school takes approaches to minimize

and/or deny. Pull your head out of the sand and look at the reality of the

situation.

Jack-Dwayne: Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Off: 916-745-4703

Cell: 575-937-1150

L. Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

916-745-4703 - Off

775-309-3994 - Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this message

(and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly prohibited

and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this message has been

served, please destroy the original message contents. If you have received this

message in error, please reply immediately to advise the sender of the

miscommunication and then delete the message and any copies you have printed.

Thank you in advance for your compliance.

[Guest guest]

My recommendations regarding the EPA and WHO documents were made in response to

concerns about ripping out carpet without the benefit of control measures. If

the situation has degraded to the extent that school officials prefer to spend

money on lawyers, as opposed to doing the right thing, then I agree that

attempts to implement recommendations from the EPA Tools for Schools would be

futile.

I am not naïve to the insensitive and biased turn of events that comes about

when lawyers dictate the manner in which IAQ complaints are handled in schools.

I have served as an expert (mostly plaintiff) on hundreds of IAQ cases. In

spite of the unwillingness of most school systems to recognize that proactive

prevention is less costly than emergency remediation and legal fees, I remain

optimistic that promoting IAQ education and accountability is preferable to

confrontation. I take seriously my professional and ethical obligation to

promote healthy indoor environments through education and objective science.

Connie Morbach, M.S., CHMM, CIE

Sanit-Air, Inc.

cleanlinest.wordpress.com

--- In , " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

wrote:

>

> This is all true, e.g. EPA programs, WHO, etc. However, it has been my

experience that once the management of the school consults with the legal staff

(attorneys) then denial sets in and the school takes approaches to minimize

and/or deny. Pull your head out of the sand and look at the reality of the

situation.

> Jack-Dwayne: Thrasher, Ph.D.

> Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

> www.drthrasher.org

> toxicologist1@...

> Off: 916-745-4703

> Cell: 575-937-1150

>

>

> L. Crawley, M.ED., LADC

> Trauma Specialist

> sandracrawley@...

> 916-745-4703 - Off

> 775-309-3994 - Cell

>

>

>

>

> This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this message

(and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly prohibited

and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this message has been

served, please destroy the original message contents. If you have received this

message in error, please reply immediately to advise the sender of the

miscommunication and then delete the message and any copies you have printed.

Thank you in advance for your compliance.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I agree with the no confrontation issue. However, It has been my experience

that as soon as the school officials learn that there may be a problem, the

consult the legal staff and then denial sets in. Testing is done that usually

reveals no problem via nonviable spore samples. BS.

Jack-Dwayne: Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Off: 916-745-4703

Cell: 575-937-1150

L. Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

916-745-4703 - Off

775-309-3994 - Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this message

(and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly prohibited

and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this message has been

served, please destroy the original message contents. If you have received this

message in error, please reply immediately to advise the sender of the

miscommunication and then delete the message and any copies you have printed.

Thank you in advance for your compliance.

[Guest guest]

--- In , " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

wrote:

>

> I agree with the no confrontation issue. However, It has been my experience

that as soon as the school officials learn that there may be a problem, the

consult the legal staff and then denial sets in. Testing is done that usually

reveals no problem via nonviable s.......

_____________________

At least in the midst of the situation, I am going with both of your

recommendations......primarily education AND with a bit of confrontation (if

need be). My own people style is generally non-confrontational, so I always

try to find a common theme that I have with the person where emotionally as

people we build some type of connection, but all my touchy-feely stuff just has

to go out the window when it comes to the bottom line of safeguarding the health

of my children.

I think I may at least give them some technical documents to read through.

[Guest guest]

Unfortunately Dr. Thrasher's assessment is so very true. School administrators

and/or their legal staff seem to be afraid to admit to even minor problems. They

certainly have no trouble finding consultants that are willing to suck air into

a cassette and declare a building safe. Therein lies a big problem in the IAQ

industry. In spite of agreeing to abide by a code of ethics that commands " to

do no harm, " narrow-sighted subjective testing with inconclusive results are

common.

I served on a statewide coalition for healthy air in MI schools for many years.

We offered building walkthroughs and onsite training for implementation of the

Tools for Schools program at no cost. Most administrators squelched the

concept. Our greatest success stories came about when we could get facility

managers to buy into the program first.

I don't claim that it is easy. Concerned parents might seek out an objective

IAQ professional who would be willing to provide a presentation to a group of

administrators, parents, and facility managers.

When cooperative efforts fail, concerned parents and teachers should be

persistent regarding appropriate assessments, mitigation and documentation.

Connie Morbach

Sanit-Air, Inc.

>

> --- In , " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@>

wrote:

> >

> > I agree with the no confrontation issue. However, It has been my experience

that as soon as the school officials learn that there may be a problem, the

consult the legal staff and then denial sets in. Testing is done that usually

reveals no problem via nonviable s.......

>

> _____________________

>

> At least in the midst of the situation, I am going with both of your

recommendations......primarily education AND with a bit of confrontation (if

need be). My own people style is generally non-confrontational, so I always

try to find a common theme that I have with the person where emotionally as

people we build some type of connection, but all my touchy-feely stuff just has

to go out the window when it comes to the bottom line of safeguarding the health

of my children.

>

> I think I may at least give them some technical documents to read through.

>

[Guest guest]

This reminds me, I have a cousin in CA that works in a school and she said

parents are frequently complaining that kids come home with a migraine. That

was in response to my saying I get migraines and I have said nothing yet because

I can't remember the school mold resource. Does anyone remember who is the

contact for school mold. She is a member here. When I google: school mold, I

get two help sites for school mold but both of them want money upfront now to

even read there. Thanks

>

> Unfortunately Dr. Thrasher's assessment is so very true. School

administrators and/or their legal staff seem to be afraid to admit to even minor

problems. They certainly have no trouble finding consultants that are willing to

suck air into a cassette and declare a building safe. Therein lies a big

problem in the IAQ industry. In spite of agreeing to abide by a code of ethics

that commands " to do no harm, " narrow-sighted subjective testing with

inconclusive results are common.

[Guest guest]

Brinchman

Founder and Executive Director,

The Center for School Mold Help

P.O. Box 655

La Mesa, CA 91944

director@...

nomoreschoolmold@...

_www.schoolmoldhelp.org_ (https://www.schoolmoldhelp.org/)

> >

> > Unfortunately Dr. Thrasher's assessment is so very true. School

administrators and/or their legal staff seem to be afraid to admit to even minor

problems. They certainly have no trouble finding consultants that are willing to

suck air into a cassette and declare a building safe. Therein lies a big

problem in the IAQ industry. In spite of agreeing to abide by a code of ethics

that commands " to do no harm, " narrow-sighted subjective testing with

inconclusive results are common.

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you everyone for your input. All of you have truly contributed to

bettering the world, even if you can't see it! Each of you has either had a

useful suggestion, pointed towards good people or resources, and have helped me

to be a stronger advocate for my children. Thank you!

update:

Two of my children are now being treated for asthma, and we will have the third

one checked tomorrow. The ENT said, " Mold is only bad for you if you are

allergic to it! " ..........in his narrow view of medicine. Ha!

Ms. Brinchman has been generous with her time, and has been most helpful with

her suggestions. I spoke to her last week.

The lady was supposed to call me back already, and she hasn't, so I am just

going to keep on laying down my paper trail.

My doctor is prepared to take this issue to the diocesan superintendent of

schools, the bishop, and the archbishop if need be, as am I.

Still looking to add appropriate portable purification/filtration to their

classrooms, but looking for something powerful, quiet, and under $600! I am

narrowing down the field.......slowly.

I am saying quite a few prayers that their risk managers make wise decisions,

and maybe the bishop already knows!

I am still planning to take the angle that my children have the right to a safe

healthy school environment in EVERY sense of those words. Unfortunately, my

church has a poor reputation at times when it comes to protecting children.

..........breaks my heart!

[Guest guest]

>

> This reminds me, I have a cousin in CA that works in a school and she said

parents are frequently complaining that kids come home with a migraine. That

was in response to my saying I get migraines and I have said nothing yet because

I can't remember the school mold resource. Does anyone remember who is the

contact for school mold. She is a member here. When I google: school mold, I

get two help sites for school mold but both o....

______________________

I just learned that headache can be an asthma symptom. In my child's case, the

headache was instantly relieved with a prescription inhaler, such as albuterol.

The allergy/asthma doc started her on that, singulair, and a nasal steriod. I

hate all these meds. My children were never sick until this building they are

in now for school.

[Guest guest]

when we saw dr. michael gray, he advised against steroids if you have

mold problems, don't recall why... sue v.

>

>

>______________________

>

>I just learned that headache can be an asthma symptom. In my child's

>case, the headache was instantly relieved with a prescription inhaler,

>such as albuterol. The allergy/asthma doc started her on that,

>singulair, and a nasal steriod. I hate all these meds. My children

>were never sick until this building they are in now for school.

>

[Guest guest]

If I recall correctly it makes the mold spread thoughtout body (organs)

...........

 

  

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

________________________________

From: sue <svican@...>

Sent: Sat, April 3, 2010 11:46:40 AM

Subject: Re: [] Re:Dr. Thrasher -- saving a bulk carpeting sample

from classroom? --

 

when we saw dr. michael gray, he advised against steroids if you have

mold problems, don't recall why... sue v.

>

>

>___________ _________ __

>

>I just learned that headache can be an asthma symptom. In my child's

>case, the headache was instantly relieved with a prescription inhaler,

>such as albuterol. The allergy/asthma doc started her on that,

>singulair, and a nasal steriod. I hate all these meds. My children

>were never sick until this building they are in now for school.

>

[Guest guest]

I can't say for sure on this, but I did read that steroids were a strong

histamine activator. I kindof took it, that the steriod intolerence may be

connected to the CNS /sensory reception/transmission problem.

me and steriods dont get along at all.

I aloso went trough several of the inhalers that I had bad reactions to, haven't

tried any for along time. that might of changed.

I wonder, if your is tolerating these meds and they are helping, if that might

be a good sign in a way, I hope so.

>

> when we saw dr. michael gray, he advised against steroids if you have

> mold problems, don't recall why... sue v.

>

> >

> >

> >______________________

> >

> >I just learned that headache can be an asthma symptom. In my child's

> >case, the headache was instantly relieved with a prescription inhaler,

> >such as albuterol. The allergy/asthma doc started her on that,

> >singulair, and a nasal steriod. I hate all these meds. My children

> >were never sick until this building they are in now for school.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

>

> I can't say for sure on this, but I did read that steroids were a strong

histamine activator. I kindof took it, that the steriod intolerence may be

connected to the CNS /sensory reception/transmission problem.

> me and steriods dont get along at all.

> I ___________________

We have been out of town. Thanks all for your input.

I am trying to avoid the nasal steroids, and just sticking with the

bronchodilator for now......palliative.

Symptoms have improved some with removal of old carpeting (they even agreed to

follow more careful methods!), but I might need to get a purifier with 50-60

pounds of charcoal in it, so that I have not only HEPA, but also HEGA, as most

experts have said the symptoms sound related to endotoxins. MAYBE we can knock

the rest of it down with a strong but quiet air purifier.

A HEGA type filter could actually help here, right?

Thanks again all!!

Jolly