Guest guest Posted February 15, 2010 Report Share Posted February 15, 2010 The topic of " outdoor mold " seems to be a confusing one, but addressing it has been extremely important in my own recovery. & #8232;I thus thought I'd summarize some of what I believe to the case about this topic, in the hope that others will contribute their thoughts and as a basis for future discussions about other topics. First, when I talk about " mold, " it always is in reference to the toxins that mold makes. I am not talking about the allergic reactions that people may have to the spores. Most experts (including Ritchie Shoemaker) agree that toxic mold grows mostly indoors, where the conditions are more favorable for it. Non-toxic molds are thought to generally grow more easily outdoors, thus providing enough competition that the toxic species don't get much of a foothold. Nonetheless, a number of Moldies have reported that the outside air can have the exact same effects on them as moldy buildings and as objects contaminated from moldy buildings. This effect is different than what they get from any other chemical, they state. It's my belief that for people who are hyperreactive to toxic mold, being aware of mold in the outside air is criticial in achieving wellness. I've yet to find anyone who has stated that s/he has extreme reactions to objects or mildly contaminated buildings who has achieved real wellness living in a place with a significant outdoor toxic mold problem (unless they make specific efforts to compensate for such exposures in ways that are too complex to be outlined in this post). People who are hyperreactive to the presence of outdoor mold state that it is a particular problem in certain places. It seems clear that all major cities in the U.S. are problematic, though some are worse than others. Certain less populated places are problematic as well. The question thus is, where does the outdoor toxic mold come from? Following are two possibilities, both of which seem to me to be happening. 1. Mold toxin inside buildings makes its way outside of buildings. The indoor air quality industry seems to make the assumption that " indoor " air is categorically different from " outdoor " air. However, air from buildings gets outside into the environment as a result of normal circulation. Likely the subsequent dilution will cause it not to be an issue for normal people. But for those of us who are reactive to even washed objects from moldy buildings, it doesn't seem implausible that the mold toxins escaping from buildings into the outside air would have an effect too. Toxic mold illness is not driven by the presence of the spores, but rather by the toxins. One individual reported his observation of that on this board in 2000, and a variety of experts (including Dr. Thrasher) have since stated their concurrence. Stachy makes a heavy sticky spore that sinks almost immediately to the ground. Most of these spores quickly disintegrate into spore fragments, which remain poisonous. Dust particles also absorb the poison. While intact stachy spores are so heavy that they likely will remain pretty much in place, spore fragments and poison dust particles are blown easily throughout a building and into the outdoors. These particles gradually release their poisons into the air. Air spore testing seems like it never would uncover this phenomenon, since it does not pick up on the presence of spore fragments, poison dust and satratoxin gas. While it may pick up on the presence of spores of some other species of toxic mold that are better " floaters, " those may or may not be especially problematic for us. It's hard to know until more research is done. All things being equal, it seems reasonable to think that more of this outdoor stachy toxin (and more toxic mold as a whole) will be present in populated environments. More populated environments include a higher density of buildings, a certain percentage of which are bound (at least in the U.S. at this point in time) to have severe toxic mold problems. The increasing evidence that EMF's cause molds to create more potent toxins provides another possible reason why the toxins would be worse in cities. Those of us who are particularly sensitive to toxic mold in the outdoor environment have observed that very bad buildings do indeed have a " bad zone " around them. These bad zones extend further into the environment, changing as a result of wind direction. These moving clouds of toxins (or " plumes " ) can have an effect quite a ways from their point of origin, especially in times of cloudy weather. Their effects seem to be less on sunny days, suggesting that UV rays or some other factor may be degrading them. Areas that are not as populated generally have less outdoor toxic mold, though there are some exceptions. Observations and speculations on this phenomenon would be a good topic for future discussion. 2. It seems that some particularly problematic toxic mold actually DOES grow outside. There seems to be at least one strain of toxic mold having very specific systemic effects that does grow outside under specific conditions. It especially has been observed in conjunction with areas of forests that have been treated with fire retardants and with sewage treatment facilities (including outdoor sewer ponds), and thus conceivably could be using specific chemicals to potentiate its own poisons. The presence of this mold growing in the outdoors seems to be growing in prevalence, suggesting that it may be a relatively new strain (i.e. having emerged in the past 40 years). Locations with a lot of this mold growing in the outdoors are very problematic regardless of how populated they are. Obviously all of this is based on the individual observations of Moldies rather than on the reports of researchers. Perhaps research will be done to verify those observations in the near future. Hopefully Dr. Thrasher, Carl or others who are well versed in this subject will contribute their thoughts or criticisms to this discussion. Best, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2010 Report Share Posted February 15, 2010 WHO SAYS THERES NOTHING IN A SPORE OR ATTACHED TO A SPORE THATS NOT TOXIC? why are you trying to make a issue out of outdoor mold? > > The topic of " outdoor mold " seems to be a confusing one, but addressing it has been extremely important in my own recovery. > & #8232;I thus thought I'd summarize some of what I believe to the case about this topic, in the hope that others will contribute their thoughts and as a basis for future discussions about other topics. > > First, when I talk about " mold, " it always is in reference to the toxins that mold makes. I am not talking about the allergic reactions that people may have to the spores. > > Most experts (including Ritchie Shoemaker) agree that toxic mold grows mostly indoors, where the conditions are more favorable for it. Non-toxic molds are thought to generally grow more easily outdoors, thus providing enough competition that the toxic species don't get much of a foothold. > > Nonetheless, a number of Moldies have reported that the outside air can have the exact same effects on them as moldy buildings and as objects contaminated from moldy buildings. This effect is different than what they get from any other chemical, they state. > > It's my belief that for people who are hyperreactive to toxic mold, being aware of mold in the outside air is criticial in achieving wellness. I've yet to find anyone who has stated that s/he has extreme reactions to objects or mildly contaminated buildings who has achieved real wellness living in a place with a significant outdoor toxic mold problem (unless they make specific efforts to compensate for such exposures in ways that are too complex to be outlined in this post). > > People who are hyperreactive to the presence of outdoor mold state that it is a particular problem in certain places. It seems clear that all major cities in the U.S. are problematic, though some are worse than others. Certain less populated places are problematic as well. > > The question thus is, where does the outdoor toxic mold come from? > > Following are two possibilities, both of which seem to me to be happening. > > > 1. Mold toxin inside buildings makes its way outside of buildings. > > The indoor air quality industry seems to make the assumption that " indoor " air is categorically different from " outdoor " air. > > However, air from buildings gets outside into the environment as a result of normal circulation. Likely the subsequent dilution will cause it not to be an issue for normal people. But for those of us who are reactive to even washed objects from moldy buildings, it doesn't seem implausible that the mold toxins escaping from buildings into the outside air would have an effect too. > > Toxic mold illness is not driven by the presence of the spores, but rather by the toxins. One individual reported his observation of that on this board in 2000, and a variety of experts (including Dr. Thrasher) have since stated their concurrence. > > Stachy makes a heavy sticky spore that sinks almost immediately to the ground. Most of these spores quickly disintegrate into spore fragments, which remain poisonous. Dust particles also absorb the poison. > > While intact stachy spores are so heavy that they likely will remain pretty much in place, spore fragments and poison dust particles are blown easily throughout a building and into the outdoors. These particles gradually release their poisons into the air. > > Air spore testing seems like it never would uncover this phenomenon, since it does not pick up on the presence of spore fragments, poison dust and satratoxin gas. While it may pick up on the presence of spores of some other species of toxic mold that are better " floaters, " those may or may not be especially problematic for us. It's hard to know until more research is done. > > All things being equal, it seems reasonable to think that more of this outdoor stachy toxin (and more toxic mold as a whole) will be present in populated environments. More populated environments include a higher density of buildings, a certain percentage of which are bound (at least in the U.S. at this point in time) to have severe toxic mold problems. The increasing evidence that EMF's cause molds to create more potent toxins provides another possible reason why the toxins would be worse in cities. > > Those of us who are particularly sensitive to toxic mold in the outdoor environment have observed that very bad buildings do indeed have a " bad zone " around them. These bad zones extend further into the environment, changing as a result of wind direction. These moving clouds of toxins (or " plumes " ) can have an effect quite a ways from their point of origin, especially in times of cloudy weather. Their effects seem to be less on sunny days, suggesting that UV rays or some other factor may be degrading them. > > Areas that are not as populated generally have less outdoor toxic mold, though there are some exceptions. Observations and speculations on this phenomenon would be a good topic for future discussion. > > > 2. It seems that some particularly problematic toxic mold actually DOES grow outside. > > There seems to be at least one strain of toxic mold having very specific systemic effects that does grow outside under specific conditions. > > It especially has been observed in conjunction with areas of forests that have been treated with fire retardants and with sewage treatment facilities (including outdoor sewer ponds), and thus conceivably could be using specific chemicals to potentiate its own poisons. > > The presence of this mold growing in the outdoors seems to be growing in prevalence, suggesting that it may be a relatively new strain (i.e. having emerged in the past 40 years). > > Locations with a lot of this mold growing in the outdoors are very problematic regardless of how populated they are. > > > Obviously all of this is based on the individual observations of Moldies rather than on the reports of researchers. Perhaps research will be done to verify those observations in the near future. > > Hopefully Dr. Thrasher, Carl or others who are well versed in this subject will contribute their thoughts or criticisms to this discussion. > > Best, > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2010 Report Share Posted February 15, 2010 personally, I take offence to you useing this group to write your book. we are not here for you to make money off of. we get enough of that crap. besides that why would you need this groups input with the great expertize of the desert men? I'm about to delete all my archived posts than you can do whatever. maybe you should have asked people first. > > > > The topic of " outdoor mold " seems to be a confusing one, but addressing it has been extremely important in my own recovery. > > & #8232;I thus thought I'd summarize some of what I believe to the case about this topic, in the hope that others will contribute their thoughts and as a basis for future discussions about other topics. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 16, 2010 Report Share Posted February 16, 2010 I have to agree with about the moldy buildings and the " bad zone " around them. There is a shopping center here in Dallas and the entire building (as many as 15 stores) has a flat roof. Every single store in that shopping center has stained ceiling tiles. I just wanted to agree that I cannot even walk the sidewalk around these units without getting " hit " as you can smell/feel the mold all around the entire building. Crazy..dont know whoever came up with the idea of flat roofs, but not a wise design... D > > The topic of " outdoor mold " seems to be a confusing one, but addressing it has been extremely important in my own recovery. > & #8232;I thus thought I'd summarize some of what I believe to the case about this topic, in the hope that others will contribute their thoughts and as a basis for future discussions about other topics. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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