Re: mold plates.

[Guest guest]

I not only mean well, but I also stand by my comments. I was addressing comment

recently about looking for a place to live. I am not advocating using it alone

but it one thing that can be helpful. Of course I have read Carls and Dr T's

posts. I also use sometimes plates that I get from Dallas Environmental Center

bec they use a medium that is suited more for fungus that causes health

problems. I put them on my cold air returns. I get mucor sp in their dishes

that I don't get in ProLab dishes. I've also had professional air sampling done

here two different times by two different professionals a couple years apart

back. I had professional testing done first.

If you are looking for a place to stay it is a 'clue' to detect things you

cannot see. I know doubling the results isn't a good technique but you only

have so much time when searching for a temporary place. Of course you also do a

visual inspection and for me, odors work as an indicator which has proved

significant to me.

I can't hire a professional to do tests on a temporary apartment.

For a temporary place or a place ProLab, visual inspection, odors and similar

things are about as best as I have time or could afford. I certainly wouldn't

rely on them to buy anyplace or singularly to rent some places that I would

really be tied to long term.

>

> Barb,

> I know you mean well, but please see the many many posts over many years from

Carl, Dr. Thrasher, me, and several others that addres mold sampling issues.

> To summarize for you and others: The settling plate is rarely useful.

Especially if used one at at time. Period. That's why the professionals do NOT

use them. They are a very old method that was invalidated by many people over

many years of use and misuse.

>

> I am concerned that you are going to create undue confidence in others that

this is " the way to do it " . It is not.

> Sincerely,

>

[Guest guest]

Barb,

in the interest of protecting the amateurs and do-it-yourselfers who want to do

something, I stand by my professional and expert opinion: Do not use settling

plates as a DIY solution, even if you think it's just another " clue " . There are

better ways, visual, historical, etc.

You risk getting false negatives, which is why it's not a good idea. You also

don't know how to interpret the results, low? high? common? WDB related? blown

in by wind? dragged in by dog? fell off shoulder?

Regardless of the agar that is selected - mucor friendly or not. I'd like to see

which two you have used that give you disparate results. In fact, the results

you get are one of the reasons we don't like them. Ask, what doesn't grow when

mucor does? Might it be important?You get disparate or mismatched results, even

from something so simple as agar - turns out agar selection is rather

complicated.

This group, and most of the readership, are very well self-educated on many

matters of health and environment. I respect that.

However, there are times when the self-taught must defer to the professional.

Especially when the professional is bringing you consensus information.

Sampling is one of those areas. Don't get caught up in the ez trap, it's the

same with using contractors and inspectors who sample to make a quick $50. They

don't really know or understand the scientific and methodological complexities

of environmental sampling.

If you doubt the complexity, think about how Dr. Thrasher and I have debated

some seemingly-minor details about sampling -- And we are both recognized as

knowledgable and capable in this specialized arena.

If you must sample, keep it and the method to yourself. You are putting others

at risk of making an error that could hurt them (or at least, waste their

money).

Sincerely,

>

> I not only mean well, but I also stand by my comments.

[Guest guest]

, we have talked about this exhaustively in the past and I can't go over

all we said now but it gives me more information than my eyes and no, I cannot

hire a professional for when I went apt hunting for example so if I didn't use

settling plates, I would have no information at all and you are ignoring that I

said along w visual inspection and odors and other things, gives you a clue. If

I get alot of mold and it is a big variety, I know it is similar to what I get

outdoors so perhaps place is just air leaky. If I get alot and it is all same

kind, I may want to look at another apartment. If I get very little, its a

possibility but might run another test. I always stir the air up by turning a/c

or furnace on and then turning it off for test so things can settle out. I

think sometimes people have a hard time accepting the fact that non

professionals think straight and can do some things themselves. I cannot test

for bacteria and viruses. I don't think that the place is healthy bec of good

plates..but I'll tell you what I discovered problem in my house and not the two

pros I had out here. The key to discovering it myself was a posting by Jim

White though about changes in air direction. I realized professional testing

was done in winter and air direction is different in winter than summer, put

some settling plates that I got okay results from in winter and put them on my

cold air returns in August and found it. I read the information and put the

facts together myself. My health and test results are reflective of what was

found in settling plates, mainly aspergillus. Fluid taken from a cyct in my

pancreas was sent to lab to test for cancer markers, that came out negative for

cancer; resent to Realtime to test for mycos and came out positive for

ochratoxin...toxin from aspergillus. The house was FULL of horse hair carpet

padding and also horse hair reinforced plaster so mucor sp showing second

highest to aspergillus made perfect sense since mucor sp likes horse hair.

Believe or not we aren't stupid here.

>

> Barb,

> in the interest of protecting the amateurs and do-it-yourselfers who want to

do something, I stand by my professional and expert opinion: Do not use settling

plates as a DIY solution, even if you think it's just another " clue " . There are

better ways, visual, historical, etc.

>

[Guest guest]

I also agree with you here Barb. I have used Pro-lab many times and went the

full course and sent them in to have the mold identified so I would know which

kind I had. Showed the results to Dr. Rea and that is exactly what my body had

also. I found them not only easy but accurate. D

> >

> > Barb,

> > I know you mean well, but please see the many many posts over many years

from Carl, Dr. Thrasher, me, and several others that addres mold sampling

issues.

> > To summarize for you and others: The settling plate is rarely useful.

Especially if used one at at time. Period. That's why the professionals do NOT

use them. They are a very old method that was invalidated by many people over

many years of use and misuse.

> >

> > I am concerned that you are going to create undue confidence in others that

this is " the way to do it " . It is not.

> > Sincerely,

> >

>

[Guest guest]

,

Barb has been through this gauntlet several times and understands very well the

limitations. She also understands that ANY testing method needs a context and

hypothesis. She has created a subjective screening method which has developed

meaning for her in a semi-semi-quantitative way. I don't object because she is

using settling plates in a more thoughtful and aware manner than most of the

" professionals " do with their fancy but mis-used equipment and ignorant

interpretation.

That said, Barb, I do disagree with your doubling the count if you cut the

exposure time in half. There is no basis, rational or otherwise, for that.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

(fm my Blackberry)

[] Re: mold plates.

Barb,

in the interest of protecting the amateurs and do-it-yourselfers who want to do

something, I stand by my professional and expert opinion: Do not use settling

plates as a DIY solution, even if you think it's just another " clue " . There are

better ways, visual, historical, etc.

You risk getting false negatives, which is why it's not a good idea. You also

don't know how to interpret the results, low? high? common? WDB related? blown

in by wind? dragged in by dog? fell off shoulder?

Regardless of the agar that is selected - mucor friendly or not. I'd like to see

which two you have used that give you disparate results. In fact, the results

you get are one of the reasons we don't like them. Ask, what doesn't grow when

mucor does? Might it be important?You get disparate or mismatched results, even

from something so simple as agar - turns out agar selection is rather

complicated.

This group, and most of the readership, are very well self-educated on many

matters of health and environment. I respect that.

However, there are times when the self-taught must defer to the professional.

Especially when the professional is bringing you consensus information.

Sampling is one of those areas. Don't get caught up in the ez trap, it's the

same with using contractors and inspectors who sample to make a quick $50. They

don't really know or understand the scientific and methodological complexities

of environmental sampling.

If you doubt the complexity, think about how Dr. Thrasher and I have debated

some seemingly-minor details about sampling -- And we are both recognized as

knowledgable and capable in this specialized arena.

If you must sample, keep it and the method to yourself. You are putting others

at risk of making an error that could hurt them (or at least, waste their

money).

Sincerely,

>

> I not only mean well, but I also stand by my comments.

[Guest guest]

Hi Barb,

You definitely put more thought into your sampling plan than many, if not most,

professionals do. I like that you recognize the importance of false negatives.

The method you described for interpretation of the results makes sense. If the

plates are dominated by one species, especially Aspergillus or Penicillium, I

would agree that you more likely than not have a mold problem, and that the

spores that do not originate from outdoor air. As with all mold sampling, the

qualitative nature of the data is much more important than the quantitative.

Any type of sampling is just a piece of the puzzle. This or any type of single

sample should not be a stand alone method for assessing an indoor environment.

I'm sure with your experience, that you also performed a visual evaluation and

addressed historical information that was available.

I agree with in that uneducated consumers frequently get harmed by the

misrepresentation of the validity of this sampling method, especially when the

results are negative. Knowing when a professional is needed and how to select a

professional are also critical pieces of the puzzle.

Connie Morbach

>

> , we have talked about this exhaustively in the past and I can't go over

all we said now but it gives me more information than my eyes and no, I cannot

hire a professional for when I went apt hunting for example so if I didn't use

settling plates, I would have no information at all and you are ignoring that I

said along w visual inspection and odors and other things, gives you a clue. If

I get alot of mold and it is a big variety, I know it is similar to what I get

outdoors so perhaps place is just air leaky. If I get alot and it is all same

kind, I may want to look at another apartment. If I get very little, its a

possibility but might run another test. I always stir the air up by turning a/c

or furnace on and then turning it off for test so things can settle out. I

think sometimes people have a hard time accepting the fact that non

professionals think straight and can do some things themselves. I cannot test

for bacteria and viruses. I don't think that the place is healthy bec of good

plates..but I'll tell you what I discovered problem in my house and not the two

pros I had out here. The key to discovering it myself was a posting by Jim

White though about changes in air direction. I realized professional testing

was done in winter and air direction is different in winter than summer, put

some settling plates that I got okay results from in winter and put them on my

cold air returns in August and found it. I read the information and put the

facts together myself. My health and test results are reflective of what was

found in settling plates, mainly aspergillus. Fluid taken from a cyct in my

pancreas was sent to lab to test for cancer markers, that came out negative for

cancer; resent to Realtime to test for mycos and came out positive for

ochratoxin...toxin from aspergillus. The house was FULL of horse hair carpet

padding and also horse hair reinforced plaster so mucor sp showing second

highest to aspergillus made perfect sense since mucor sp likes horse hair.

Believe or not we aren't stupid here.

>

>